Windows Phone 8

Microsoft just announced Windows Phone 8 at the developer summit. They are now allowing native code as well as having support for DirectX 11 API.

Does this mean Unity can finally support this in the near future?

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/20/3095150/microsoft-windows-phone-8-common-platform-directx

 

I watched the presentation as well and was thinking the same thing.

With WP8 and W8 using the same kernel and a shared set of API that uses DirectX and C++ for gaming on both platforms one would think that getting Unity working on WP8 will be added in the future.

We can hope atleast =) I really like the WP System itself.

 

Not impressive.
The Windows Phone market got killed 2.x years ago with the move to Windows Phone 7 and now all those stupid enough buying those devices will not get the WP8.
Thats more than just weak and I doubt the WP8 will pick up anytime soon. It will require a solid Win 8 RT - Win 8 install base to ride upon it

 

My Mum was just about to get a Nokia Lumia 800 on contract, as recommended by me, because there is a really cheap deal available that would only get an old and basic Android at the same price. Support dying so soon means she will not be signing up for a 2 year contract.

It doesn't bode well for Windows Mobile 8 having a long life either. Judge people on what they have done, not what they promise to do.

 

I don't know, its half and half. Half the people (including myself) got the Windows Phone 7 (actually liked the device in opposition to your stupid comment) will be getting the Windows Phone 8 because it is so awesome. It is everything 7 should have been. MS was pretty stupid for matching the competition and not bringing anything new to the device for 7, but native code support (NT Kernel) without work around's is pretty amazing.

Secondly, the idea behind how its put out means that it will probably pick up a ton of users because of Windows 8. Telling your users that any app you have on your desktop(/tablet) can be on your tablet and your phone is pretty amazing. I actually know quite a few people who are willing to drop their Android to pick up a Windows Phone 8.

Haha, they should just play WP7 off as a front of WP8 the whole time. >.>

 

The windows phone market was killed by 6 and 6.5 and their poor response to the iPhone, not by Windows Phone 7. The market was already on the decline because they were just really super awful phone OSes.

 

I actually liked WP6. Did not like WP7 at all. WP8 looks very interesting on the other hand.

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...ve/2012/06/20/announcing-windows-phone-8.aspx

It's very easy to picture the WP8 phone, the Win8 ARM tablet, the Win8 ARM console, the Win8 desktop, the Win8 laptop... and being able to work across those various hardware platforms.

Throw some Kinect for Windows in: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/...ing-into-the-power-of-kinect-for-windows.aspx

Picture family/friend game night - the guy on his phone, the guy on his tablet, the guy on his PC, the guy in front of the TV, etc, etc.

It oozes awesome sauce...

 

Except...not. ARM apps (Windows RT) will not run on X86 hardware (Windows 8) and vice versa.

But you can't. They're going to have quite the disaster on their hands if people (apparently even ones who are more computer-aware than average) think everything's interchangeable and get mad when they find out that's not true. People realize that iOS and Mac OS X are different things, which is also the case for Windows RT/Windows 8, but calling everything "Windows" seems like it will cause a huge amount of confusion. They should have come up with different branding like they did with the Xbox.

--Eric

 

It's not about it being interchangeable in that sense. Okay, well for me it's not about being interchangeable. I can see what you're saying about how some folks will think they'll be able to run the same app on their various Win8 devices that they can on their WP8 devices. They'll be confused because they have some Metro app that runs on their desktop, laptop, netbook, and tablet...but it will not be the same on the phone. Microsoft's just not there yet.

It's about a better unified system. It's not the same app working across the hardware, it's about the user working across the hardware.

It's about selling the value of that overall system to the user. Here's your Windows8 desktop. Did you know you can do "this" with your Windows 8 tablet? Hey, did you know you can do "this" with your WP8 phone? You can be more efficient and have fun while you're at it!

Yeah, yeah - iPhones are great and all - but with a WP8 phone you can do this with your desktop. Yeah, yeah - those slick new miniPad's are great and all - but with a Windows 8 tablet you can do this with your desktop...and hey, if you've also got a WP8 phone you can do this too!

It's about selling the "You can do more with your Windows 8 desktop, Windows 8 Metro tablet, and a WP8 phone than you could with your Mac, iPad, and iPhone...and you can do it for less!"

That's Microsoft, though. As the developer, it gets down to how it will be easier, more efficient, and faster to do apps for the Windows platform - closer to writing the core once, customizing for device, and publishing for the system.

Honestly though, I'm not sure there will be much confusion as you portend. Say we have Harry the Lawyer, he's got his Windows 7 desktop, his Android tablet, and his iPhone. It took some time for Harry the Lawyer to understand what he couldn't do with all three - but that's fine, Harry's not an idiot...he's a brilliant lawyer, tech's just not his thing. So when you present Harry with Win8 - it's not going to be about what they can't do, he's already expecting the can't do...where Harry will attaboy folks will be with what he can do that he couldn't. For a lot of folks, it will be that way. We've had a lot of time dealing with all of the can't do this that there is a better understanding of it. That base is pretty solid.

People are becoming more tech aware in many aspects. It's not the 80's. It's not the 90's. It's not even the 2000's.

 

That's um, sort of incorrect.

Metro style app - WinRT run on both X86 and ARM.
Windows 7 (or older) legacy desktop apps will not run on ARM.

 

Metrostyle apps work very well on both Windows 8 (x86-32/64bits) and Windows RT (ARM), and I believe even on WP8 (most of the hardware will be Krait S4, e.i. on par with RT tablets specs).
Therfore I suggest a build target like: Windows ARM, or something like WinRT and renaming Windows to Legacy Windows with a tab in the build settings to choose an icon for the tile or to deploy a sub-entity of the game as a live tile etc... one rock three birds.
We could all become rich if Unity supports WinRT. Unless Unity is looking for a way to decouple WRT and WP8 so they can charge an extra 1500$ add-on license in witch case I will be rich minus 1500$

 

WRT / WP8 require WinRT instead of Win32, so it is practically a new platform as its the first time in what, 15 years or so where they break away from Win32 ... after threatening to do it twice with Vista and Win7

 

Win32 is old rubbish anyways and UT hardly make any use of it, except the suspicious hiring campaign where they were looking for COM developers instead of WinRT!!! Are we going backwards or what? All they need is unhooking/rehooking the few non-DX API calls from Win32/COM whateva to WinRT. It's just a build target not an authoring platform. UT has a unique track record of multiplatformism. If they did it for Flash then they absolutely can redo it with WinRT.

 

Windows 8 phone may be good for you devs thinking about making games for it but I honestly don't want to buy anything from "Microsoft" or "windows" again after having my xbox360 break and windows 7 OS having so many bugs and issues with it

Microsoft really has a bad reputation, but all the mainstream software ( games, audio programs, etc. ) are for windows

 

Can't really speak about the X-Box 360, since I'm still using my X-Box a decade later...knock on wood as I type this, mind you - but no issues since I got it Christmas 2001.

As for Windows 7...er...really? If you were talking about Vista or ME, sure - could see that easily. But uh, Windows 7?

Which should tell you something...

I get your disliking Microsoft though, we all have certain brands/etc that we dislike. Personally, I dislike Apple, Android, and Samsung. Both Apple and Samsung burnt me to the point you'd have to hold an X-Acto blade to my testes to touch either of them again. Android's still got one or two tries left.

I'm a Microsoft and Linux guy.

Course, I wouldn't touch WP7... I thought Vista a joke...ME was the Millenium Bug taking physical form...and who can forget about Microsoft Bob, am I right? Still, I think WP8 holds a lot of promise that WP7 lacked. There's already hate developing out there for Win8 ARM tablets, but we'll have to see how that goes.

There are too many people that completely write a company off and hate everything about them. It's ludicrous. But I can understand it... I've written companies off like that myself.

 

The first xbox had issues with it and it would break down
The first xbox360's had issues with it ( RROD )

Windows is the most virus-prone OS out there. Vista had issues, Windows 7 definitely has issues ( using to much memory I believe ), I even have folders on my desktop that are stuck there..permanently, can't delete them shred them nothing lol

But Windows XP was perfect..don't understand why they went from amazing OS to bad OS


I'm not writing Microsoft off, as you can see I need their OS for most audio production and games lol..which is probably why they don't care about fixing it

Linux is a real nice operating system though. It's virus free, customizable, stable and just cool

 

Thats so wrong it hurts.
Microsoft is the most widely used one, but not the most virus prone.
Unlike OSX Users, Windows users aren't stupid or arrogant and hence install antivirus. Due to that worms do no longer spread like wildfires on windows as they did with the java vulnerability a few weeks ago on OSX. On a 'virus / machine' ratio OSX flat out loses. Also at hacker conventions it normally takes less time to hack into password protected osx machines than it does for windows machines.

Also the main reason Windows is still not virus protected out of the box is that Norton are a bunch of *****.
They through court forced microsoft to drop virus protection from windows xp, I think SP3 if I recall right, due to 'destroying competition'. Instead of competing with it fair and square as it has happened on the firewall front since winxp. Luckily with Win8, MS will include the live care antivirus protect as part of windows defender finally and then we will see which OS is more virus prone, especially given OSX threading - async 'anomalies' that combined with antivirus technology leads to crashes, application lockups and performance degradations on the hdd in the 70-90% range at worst even on high speed SATA3 SSDs

 

For a multitude of reasons, this is pretty much undeniable. At the same time, one could take some of the precautions that other operating systems enforce to reduce the risk.

Are you getting a permission or in use error message?

XP was far from perfect, though. Heck, some of the problems in Windows 7 are from supporting XP compatibility. Really wish they had not offered XP compatibility with Windows 7 and forced everybody to use XP Mode for it...oh well.

I find it curious that you believe they do not care about fixing issues.

Linux is not virus free...

 

Given the number of people that run Windows as a full administrator, turn off the UAC, run jury-rigged programs in compatibility mode... I'd have to agree with Majestic on that.

Can you make Windows less prone? Definitely - there are many things a user could do to make their machines less prone. Does the average user do those things? No. Does Windows force them to? No.

Windows is the most convenient operating system for the end user... and sometimes, that end user is not the person sitting at the keyboard. Microsoft provides options that will make it less convenient but more secure, but how many folks out there just ignore Windows Updates thinking it a nuisance?

As for folks running Vista/Windows 7, they do not have to wait until Windows 8 for AV. Security Essentials already includes it. Then again, plenty of people run AVG, avast!, etc, etc, etc...

 

What makes you say that? It's a common complaint, but it deliberately uses all available memory to speed things up by caching commonly used things from the hard drive. If you need that memory for other things it'll happily dump the cache, since it's purely a convenience thing. I can't understand why people want to whack extra RAM in their machine just to see it go unused.

But perhaps that's not what you're talking about?

 

Need moar RAM!

Not for Windows though, for all the apps...and for the VMs...and...and...stuff.

 

No there's just two folders on my desktop that when i try to delete win7 says "Could not find this item" says it's "no longer located in Desktop" and to "verify the items location"

I've tried deleting it with Command Prompt but no luck..It's like it's stuck there forever lol

 

Yes it does if you leave the Win7 default settings cause you are not on an admin, you have Windows Defender and you have the updates on auto install and on top of that windows nags you about the lack of a antivirus offering free ones to download

I would consider this major game changers.

You can't blame absurd stupidity on the end user onto the OS cause if you do that then the least secure one is Linux (running on stoneage kernels), followed by OSX (running on 10.5) followed by Windows (whatever stupid thing you do, everyone has some form of antivirus installed on it out of the box unless he builds the system himself and then he is smart enough to do it).

Security Essentials though until recently was not free though, its an extra step to get it. On Windows 8 its there, point simple. Not as an option but part of the OS

 

Did you try deleting them via their short names?

 

is unity3d supporting windows mobile phones?

 

If you do not do X, then it does Y is not the same as it does not allow you to do X so it does Y.

Sure you can. Microsoft went with convenience. That was their decision. It helps the product sell. There's a tradeoff with that though.

As for Linux, sure - somebody can surf the internet as root with an old kernel and apps missing security updates. As for Mac, sure - folks can ignore updates just like they do on WIndows - they can mix some of the fun from Linux and Windows with their OS X.

Windows though...it's just so easy, so convenient...to do wrong.

And as for having an AV installed if they buy an OTC machine running Windows - that doesn't mean that it updates, doesn't mean that it does not expire, nor does it take into account that an AV is not bullet-proof.

Windows is my OS of choice. I've been using it for over 20 years. Since Win 3.0, the only desktop version I have not run is Win ME. I've run NT 3.5 through 2008 R2 on the server side. I started in IT back in '94...the majority of that time spent as a server/desktop monkey. I'm often called a Microsoft fanboi...I always challenge that, though - I'm not oblivious to the faults, I just have a preference.

 

Heh, been asking for a wee while now what the intended support Unity's going to offer for the Win8 family - WP8, Win8 Metro, Win8 Metro ARM... Unity's been smart not to answer outside of support for Win8 x86 Desktop/Legacy. They know how we take even the hint of something as gospel and then break out the flaming cows when it does not come to pass...

 

Looks like its official:

http://wmpoweruser.com/unity3d-graphics-engine-coming-to-windows-phone-8-and-windows-8/

 

I'm curious how the Unity licensing is going to work.

Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 and Windows RT. Would Unity be able to justify different licenses for each?

 

Will be interesting to see how that actually plays out - by including the WP8 side, can't help but think about Win RT (not to be confused with WinRT - lol) and Metro in general. Passing the Windows Store certification process... that's going to be a bit rough. Definitely looking forward to seeing the additional announcements that come with this after the session.

 

The Metro app should be the same for Windows 8 or Windows RT...for the most part. Still trying to figure out the differences one will face with WP8.

A main issue that will arise between Win8 and Win RT (heh, hate having to leave that space - I'm so lazy) will actually be system requirements. ARM's going to be ARM...while a PC's going to - yeah. Then again, I seriously hope the Win RT devices are cheapish in cost. Since "touch" is required whether it's desktop, tablet, notebook, ultrabook... would really want to have a touch device for that.

Course, that raises the question of whether the WP8 SDK will include a WP8 emulator that you can run on a WARM tablet to use "touch"...heh. I'd hate to think of the cost of a dev/unlocked WP8 phone on top of everything else.

Will definitely be interesting to see how they handle the licensing - what they do with Basic/Pro, etc, etc.

 

I imagine Windows 8 will be free, just as the Windows platform is before.

Hoping that RT will be free as it is still Window desktop, but worried that it will cost as RT is also for tablets, and other tablet platforms are paid. I had thought that the RT app store might push it into being a paid extension, but then remembered the Mac App Store does not require a paid extension.

I expect Windows Phone 8 will be a paid extension, just like the other mobile platforms.

The number of paid extensions could get out of hand. I wish Unity could introduce something like the first extension cost the current price, the second one a person bought was at 75% of the full cost, the third and 50%, and the rest at 25%.

 

It's mostly likely one paid for any WinRT publishing as its technically its own thing and has its own set of rules to follow given by Microsoft. Also remember that its nearly same app for all devices (desktop, phone, tablet).

Mac publishing was already free before Mac app store came so they cant quickly change to paid (can still happen later).

 

Interesting stuff. I'm really happy about that.
Winodws phone 8 and windows 8 itself are great platforms and if one support them can have real benifits.
I wrote about it weeks before and published about 10 days ago and guessed wp8 support like many others did

http://mindhammergames.com/index.ph...ms-are-great-windows-8-is-more-than-that.html

 

They do not have to do anything for Windows 8 desktop. Supporting Windows 8 in that fashion is no different than supporting Windows 7, Vista, XP...

As for Windows RT/WARM, you can't install desktop apps - it's Metro - so it's Windows Store.

Passing the Windows Store cert...have to believe that it's going to be a paid expansion for Metro apps. It's a pretty cumbersome cert.

The whole Metro thing's kind of curious in that regard - x86, x64, ARM...WP8...the different hardware reqs. Will be interesting to see how that plays out in the Windows Store for the average consumer that doesn't click the Details tab...lol.

Windows RT is mobile - thus another reason it's likely to be a paid extension.

WinRT != Windows RT. Windows RT is not the Windows Runtime, that's WinRT (following Win32, etc, etc, etc). Windows RT is Windows on ARM...WARM...etc, etc, etc.

Well, the thing is - developing on additional platforms should mean additional revenue. If the platform's not going to cover the cost of the extension, then it may be best not deploy - unless you're treating it as an acceptable loss to try to drive sales for other platforms through additional marketing...but then again, you're making the choice to eat that loss.

Now, in discussing costs - even though it does not affect me in that sense, I cannot help but feel a sense of solidarity for my mobile brothers and sisters out there that are paying for features in Unity Pro that they have no intentions of using and cannot use on their platforms of choice. There really needs to be a middle ground between Unity and Unity Pro for those mobile folks.

 

Was kind of funny this morning, perusing News@Google. The headline:

Windows 8 Phone Might Be Getting Serious About Gaming

So I click the link: http://www.webpronews.com/windows-8-phone-might-be-getting-serious-about-gaming-2012-08 :and bam, tada - Unity.

Looking around a little more and bam: http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2012/08/23/unity-set-to-support-windows-phone-gaming/

Even toucharcade's showing Unity some love over the move: http://toucharcade.com/2012/08/22/windows-phone-8-and-windows-8-will-be-supported-by-unity/

 

So the only thing that interests me about win8 is will it run flash? If so, that's an easy way to get our games there, aside from having to pay adobe.

lol I don't think MS has recovered from the Zune craze yet. They have a looong hole to climb out of to match apple or google.

Either way, competition is good, hopefully they'll push the bar upwards for mobiles.

 

This is info on Win8/IE10&Flash: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85).aspx

I haven't really followed the WP8 side of things, so I couldn't even begin to guess if there'll be a WP8-Metro-IE10 that provides pseudo Flash support from a CV or not...

 

I like this idea - there's a disincentive to target multiple platforms when you have to pay full price for each add-on...

 

So each day you to go to work...they'll pay you 100% the first hour, 75% the second hour, 50% the third hour, and 25% for each additional hour...

 

Yes, exactly! (rolls eyes)

I guess you're unfamiliar with the concept of volume purchasing discounts.

I think Unity's pricing is very fair, despite the considerable investment I've made over the years in Unity Pro licenses for multiple platforms. But for a solo practitioner like me or small indie team or startup, the ability to target multiple platforms is going to be constrained by these license costs. And if I buy everything you've got (which I have, except for the source licence), it's not unreasonable to look for a price break. A discounted pro bundle that includes every build target might help both sales volume and market penetration.

A tiered ecosystem of publishers who hold all the cross platform licenses, who can help the financially challenged publish across all platforms for a price or a cut may not be a bad thing, but it's not exactly in line with the stated goals of "democratization".

 

It's not the concept that's "a bit off" - it's the discount being offered for the quantity.

 

@zerobyte, I won't repost what you edited out, except to say that what I meant by the term "democratization" was not free ice cream for everybody or whatever, but the meaning of the term as used by Unity from the beginning: increasing access to key technology to empower not just big guys but small guys. Multiplatform is, as Peter Molyneaux stressed at the keynote, a very key piece of technology now.

A fair price is what the market will bear, and as I say, relatively speaking, Unity is still arguably underpriced. But lowering the bar a bit more to multiplatform publishing might both increase adoption and ultimately revenue for them. Although no doubt there are folks smarter than me at UT thinking about that stuff. And of course you can hit all the desktop platforms for free.

So I take it back - everybody should pay more, except for me, because I'm special.

 

I think the idea of also having a single package with all Pro versions support and team license but instead of $5k to be $4k or so is something reasonable but doughbt that it could help sales or not.

 

They'd have to play around with it to see if there would be any benefit to both them and their customers. Dropping $7500 to $5000 is not the same as dropping $75 to $50....etc, etc, etc.

 

Totally agree, got a Windows 7 Phone and it is a far superior experience compared to my iPhone 4S. The one thing that let it down (apart from coming late to the party) was it's lack of apps and with Windows 8 they are addressing that and will be my next phone purchase.

Glad Unity is supporting Windows Phone 8 and expect good things to come out of it.

 

Has there been any more info about pricing? Unity is now up to 4 products that have $1,500 price tags. For an engine that has largely made its bread and butter on indie game devs trying to get good engine products without breaking the bank...it's getting tough keep up.

I own Unity Pro and Unity Pro for iOS. I've elected to pass on Android and Flash (hoping to maybe make some money on webplayer and iOS versions of the game).

I really can't see any way that they can charge for Windows 8 with a straight face. Most standalone platforms are free. Linux, Windows 7, OS X. Windows 8 belongs in that standalone category.

Windows Phone 8, however...that seems like something for which they will most likely charge. It's going to make it tough to build a multi-platform indie game if the expectation is that you'll drop $1,500 (for Unity Pro) + $1,500 (for iOS Pro) + $1,500 (for Android Pro) + $1,500 (for Windows Phone 8). That's quite a brick of cash...and a bit too rich for my blood.

I bought Unity Pro on my own risk. Took a freelance job and it paid for my purchase...I also made enough to buy Unity Pro iOS...so in fairness...I've already earned my money back on my investments.

Still though...it just seems steep. If you want the whole shebang...you're looking at $7,500 (including Flash). That just seems very ... un-indie-friendly.

Maybe a Unity Pro Mobile product that combines iOS, WP8, and Android for $2800 or something...still leave them all individually available at $1,500...but once you decide you need more than one of them...it ends up making more sense to buy the "Mobile" license.

I know there are $400 versions of all of these...but the good stuff is in the Pro versions.

 

I like the idea of a Mobile licence. With Windows Phone 8 coming soon, and maybe Blackberry 10, a combined Mobile licence option would be good if it only cost 1.5x - 2.0x the price of a single mobile platform in either basic or Pro versions.

 

Windows Phones are the next big thing, I'm pretty sure about that.
You just have to look at the Lumia 920 (which is my next phone of choice btw).
I hope Unity will support Windows Phone 8 pretty soon, so I can play Kinetic Damage on it

 

Just got a Lumia 920 yesterday...after using it for a few hours and beholding its awesomeness...my next thought was, "When can I make games for this thing?" It's pretty sweet...I'm kind of upset that I let my Xbox LIVE Indie Games subscription expire...I had one of the earlier accounts that gave you access to both XBLIG and Windows Phone development. Now they are sold individually. I think I will get on board with the Windows Phone development ... it just bothers me that if I'd just kept my account current, I'd be getting both for $100/year instead of getting one or the other for $100/year. :-/

But I digress...Windows Phone 8...very cool...having to pay another $1,500 to Unity...is a not very cool. This model of $1,500 per platform doesn't really scale very well.