UE4 3k price drop and democratization

There are many Ogre games on Steam. I'm not even sure that Unity would beat Ogre on Steam by number of games. Maybe Torchlight and Autumn Dynasty are the most famous Ogre powered games, but there are many more. I'm also not sure if Unity powered games have won more indie game awards than Ogre powered ones.

But Ogre is a pure rendering engine, it is used in many different places. There is much medical or military simulation stuff that you cannot buy in a shop. It has a different audience than Unity, with a small overlap. I would say most people using Ogre would have no problem creating games with Unity, the other way around not so much. Saying nothing but Torchlight came out of Ogre is more than a little misinformed.

[Edit: I don't know if Autumn Dynasty is that famous, I just named it because I know multiple hardcore fans of it]

 

Al-right I'll rephrase to nothing really notable came out of Ogre bar Torchlight, are we fighting semantics now to prove a point? Science and medical? Even CryEngine is used for them purposes, but I thought we was a games development community? Let's not get silly. Did I not also mention Irrlicht here and other open source engines? No point in skewing or miss-reading here.

Then we look at all the note worthy releases in Unreal Engine 3, Unity has some AAA wallop behind it too in the mobile sector.

 

Let's just take one example: http://www.proun-game.com/. I would take that over 98% of Unity games. Got 9/10 from Eurogamer and multiple awards. You say that is not notable? There are many more examples, but you get the point. Just because you don't know them does not mean they don't exist.

 

You call that notable? LMAO, anyway we both have our opinions and we are derailing so let's agree to disagree on some aspects. End of the day UE4 has it's merits and so does Unity. Pick whatever, crack on..

 

You know Unity one man spare time projects that got better scores or more awards? And that was just a randomly chosen one, I could probably find better ones by that metric.

But yes, if you think this is no notable indie game then we disagree. [But since I'm new to Unity I don't know even one notable Unity game, still I would not say they don't exist.]

 

Yeah I wouldn't really say Proun was all that notable.

KSP, A.I. War, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, War for the Overworld, Satellite Reign, Endless Space, Oddworld New 'n' Tasty, etc etc. Its a decent sized list overall.

 

1) If this are one man spare time projects, then somebody has too much spare time.
2) Most not available on http://metacritic.com, maybe because they are still in development? And those that are have worse scores than proun. And which won indie game awards?

Let's agree that we disagree. Ogre would not have this huge community if it cannot be used for anything...

[Edit: Ah sorry, you answered the second part of my post. Thanks for the list.]

 

I have to admit I like the video.

 

What about people who do this for a job? There are tons of us.!

 

Most cannot.

While I respect your uncanny ability to grok code almost as fast as a compiler can process it, most of us mere mortals aren't so talented, and it will take us orders of magnitude more than one minute to find the source code relevant to a function, let alone the exact line causing a bug.

I thought most asked for source code access because they wanted and almost always needed to change the source code to serve their specific needs, because "not doing many changes" is still doing changes, and those can't be done without source code. But I guess you would know better.

 

In update 4.1, Epic integrated at least 20 fixes from the community. Around UT 2003 or something, Epic contracted me to work on the Unreal mod tool. I made a solution that it possible to deploy any unreal game to any supported platform.

So yes a lot of us have the ability to upgrade and improve the engine

Going back to my previous z-up example I am currently directly modifying the source to do what I want. If I come up with a 100% good solution i will putit up on github. I wouldnt expect it to get integrated into the main branch but anyone working on a Sonic-type game or any type of game where PAwns need to do 360 deg movement would want it

[EDIT] ShadowK did I misunderstand You? In a post below that you seem to have a different stance. Sorry

 

With Ogre you must create your own game engine. So for many teams it is better to use Unity or UE4. But not for all. If you want to create something very unique maybe you have to create your own engine, if you can base your rendering on Ogre you save time. Ogre community has its size because there are enough people needing a highly customizable rendering engine, many needing it for commercial purposes. Unity is a game engine, Ogre is a rendering engine, these sound similar but are two very different kind of things with different audiences. Both have their usages so this fight makes no sense (but saying nothing good came out of Ogre makes no sense too).

 

Hi Shadow can you elaborate on what you meant? Thanks

 

End of the day mr. proof is in the pudding and actions speak louder than text.. 20 Fixes isn't a lot I think we've done more than that for various things already (then again we had it since last year), we are negotiating a support contract because it's not our remit or our jobs to fix or improve middleware. If that was the case then I'd of got our team together and built our own from the ground up to do exactly what we want it to, I'd know everything about it from the ground up and everything would be easy to fix.

Unless you work for a AAA where you have the money to employ an office comedian and spare people just to do engine work, or you're one of them people who aren't interested much in games then fine it makes sense. If not building a competitive game is a 2 - 3 year journey for even quite large indie's, you don't have time to mess around with your tools. It's like me asking for Modo's source code, substance designer source code etc. etc.

 

I press one button on my keyboard and it jumps to the location of the function. Or you could use a debugger, break at your call location and then go down into the unknown code. Of course it depends how complex the stuff is, but wrong usage of an API is often very obvious if you look what happens inside the function you are calling.

 

Well there is a lot more fixes than that but Epic hasn't integrated them all. Plus, there is BrickGame on github. Soon the community may add Mono C# support for those that want it


I agree with you though it is most ideal if I NEVER have to modify their source. But it is great that I have the ability to add the features I need (such as the z-up thing)

 

Oh yeah 100% agree with that, I hate being stuck in a corner due to vendor issues that seem to never get fixed when I know I could sort it out myself. Epic have shown that they are agile and responsive (for now anyway ) so hopefully the next time I touch source it will be because I want to. Not because I'm forced to...

Anyway I'll see where I'm at six months from now.. Looking forward to getting my grubby hands on U5.

 

So... On a slightly different tangent, I really really wish UT would be more transparent about Unity 5. Show us more Demos!!! My guess is that Unity 5 will be truly amazing and I am hoping it will deliver AAA levels visuals

Although I am impressed by the PBR stuff the LUX users are making here in the Unity forums with Unity 4. You guys should check it out if you have the time. This is some of the most realistic visuals I've ever seen come from Unity renderer. I think the only thing their LUX examples are lacking is the fancy post vfx we see in CryEngine and UE4.

And speaking of CryEngine... My lord when that thing becomes $10 a month I expect there will be war. Many artists seem to enjoy Cry3 due to lack of needing to build lighting. Myself, I have no plans to learn yet another engine but looking forward to seeing what happens in a 3 way Unity 5 vs Cry 3 vs Unreal 4

 

They have a 2d framework coming in 4.2. It was mentioned in the bi- tri-? weekly videos they also do with the community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUVlKLvSXZk

This is entirely smart to do at least a weekly Q&A with different developers from various sections of the pipeline. The developers dont get fatigued with nothing "new" to say and you get to meet the entire team over time, etc...

 

Edit: Turns out version numbers are too similar and too confusing, I want U5 to come out to end the confusion pweeease..

 

CE is awesome for level design, ever tried to make a full game in it?

They managed to do a pretty successful version of the mobile demo in Unity, it lacked in areas (Aliasing, lighting and particles).. But for the most part it's very impressive.

 

He's referring to UE4. Funny how the revision numbers are so similar though.

 

Where in the video?

 

Oh interesting. No I am pretty ignorant in regards to Crytek. I did look at their source in the FreeSDK and thought it looked pretty solid (gameplay C++ code I saw). But it would be a huge learning curve for me

At least with Unreal I knew the basic gameplay framework already.

 

Wow.

 

Am I a bad person for thinking it's deeply sadsville that people's maximum expectation of glory and sales amounts to 3k?

And what's even sadder is they are using all the power of unreal engine 4, and don't expect to get past 3k?

Or maybe epic don't expect you to get past 3k.

Or maybe they do, but you're being blinded with ease.

In any case, I think that it is not a factor in anything, whatsoever that's even newsworthy. It's a non-event that people are somehow placing importance on. I don't want to offend anyone.

 

No, not at all.

If I was making a game for money and it only got to $3k I'd be pretty upset. Even quarterly, that wouldn't cover my basic living costs. It probably wouldn't cover development costs (even with low engine pricing). And it'd be a terribly low hourly rate!

I honestly think it's more likely to be about making their workload lighter (not having to audit/account/whatever for the 80% of people with the least income that probably contributes a negligible amount to their bottom line) than reducing risk to indies. Though of course if I were them I'd also market it as a risk reduction or an even lower barrier to entry, because it is also that.

 

That does make a lot of sense. Fail for free, pay when you succeed, rent while you try.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tristanlouis/2013/08/10/how-much-do-average-apps-make/

 

That wouldn't be so bad if it was a sample from gamesalad or something, but it's unreal engine 4 we're talking about. I mean people are thinking this is the big meal ticket, so one would expect someone to choose the engine based on the fact they're going to hit a higher quality bar than flappy bird. Or maybe I'm grotesquely out of touch with what people envision. It's flappy bird with TXAA and DX11 particle feathers.

 

Keep in mind that average values are tilted towards the high end due to the lucky few that earn a bucketload. The average app's income (which would be the median income per app, if I remember my statistics correctly) will be less than the average revenue per app.

 

I was impressed with the lighting quality the demo achives on my old rig

FPS is low ( ~15-20 FPS average ), but first i though a simpl video playback of the tech demo as fallback solution for my non-DX11 capable GPU. but it was the real thing ...


Download here ( is a 1GB download, be warned )
http://www.guru3d.com/files_get/unreal_engine_4_elemental_tech_demo_download,1.html

 

No you are wrong, 3K is the exempt value. E.g. If your game makes $4000, then the royalty due is $50, which is 5% of ($4000 minus $3000). Rather significant for indies.

 

It's rather significant for indies if they aren't making money, is the point. The maximum that it will save you is $150 per quarter. If that's a deal changer in your business plan it's a business I want no part of.

To put it in context, it's less than it would probably cost to employ or contract one person for one day.

 

The 3k move makes a lot of sense, its mainly a correction of an oversight, thus the lack of advertising. For Epic is clearing the books, for hobbyist/ enthusiasts is dropping another wall. For professionals is indifferent.
Epics model is based on attracting that big chunk of enthusiasts, that's where the market is moving, The democratization of application making means the developers become the market, with the hobbyist share increasing every day.
Like writing, painting, playing music or golf etc the lion share of the market is not for Pros. In fact as the tools of the trade get better and more accessible the less important is the pro market.

 

Well probably your comment was taken really only from your perspective. You might be doing well on sales over 3k per title all the time, but statistically 90% rest of developers are not. And yes to them this will be glory deal.

Power of engine doesnt have anything to do with expected price sales as long as you arent paying full license price for it. If someone gives me brand new Porche for 10 bucks a month payment i will gladly take it, and you can be sure i wont drive over 130 kmh on main roads.

 

I wouldn't call you a bad person because of this, but it sure isn't nice of you to think that way. This kind of money might not seem a lot to you, but for many struggling indie developers it is, let alone countries with really low salaries. Then there are the hobyist who make little money and would have to go through all that hassle for very little money. In my home country, Greece, $3000 per quarter is more than the minimum wages. But even for myself, a mostly one man band developer living in Austrtalia, I do appreciate the extra security, less hassle and extra cash this provides.

You and others did mention how much of a hassle it would be to have to do the paperwork for the royalty payments. Well, this burden has just been lifted from those starting and those struggling. Most definitely newsworthy are you sure it's everyone else that is blinded?

 

I will not add much more than what was said on this comment.
Only the following. Take into account that:

Not everyone lives in USA or UK.
3k dollars in my country, it is enough to pay a year's rent in a nice apartment in one of the most beautiful areas of the capital (living alone).
Then imagine, 3k per quarter is enough to live here.

Be using the "all power of Unreal Engine 4" is because it is affordable, requires little investment and therefore low risk, and allows us to work with a complete and full featued tool, I do not think is related to what we expect to sell.

 

I was wondering if this contract extends to AAA studios like EA, but I realized there is no reason not to. The 5% value on a $1 billion project is now $50,000,000 instead of the $10 million it used to be and it also opens up hundreds of thousands (maybe more) users paying $20 every month.

On top of that, they are crowed sourcing through Git Hub.

I'm interesting in seeing how Unity will counter this, as the same value package is $225/mo with a mandatory contract period. This excludes access to 3rd party features like Scaleform and built in tools like render farms, mesh fracturing, etc. It also has a much more robust terrain creation system.

Though the last time I used it, you had to write code in notepad and compile it with the command line.

Still, what I find more interesting is that companies like Autodesk, Adobe and Pixelogic are clinging to extremely high per-version costs. They don't offer an Indie friendly deal for tools associated with game development. The first company to wise up and offer a real set of tools for indie developers for $50 - $100 is going to make some serious waves.

Afterall, if someone can't afford to spend $1500 on Unity pro, they probably can't spend $1500 on 3ds Max. Not that there is anything wrong with using Blender and Gimp.

 

offtopic:

Really? Where is that? You said beautiful area.. do you have a sea view also? Just out of curiosity.. I know places in Europe where rent can be as low as 250-300 euro per month, and living super decent (pool included), but you cant live there with out 1000-1500 euro per month. Don't confuse rent price and cost of living per month. Are 2 different things.

 

I don't get your math. 5% of 1 billion is 50 million, or do I misunderstand what you want to say?

 

To a brain that's been up for way too many hours without sleep, that math was perfectly fine

Nice catch.

 

My friend just vacationed in the Philippines and rented a house for $100 for 3 months. The people there were living off of $200 - $300/mo. When my other friend was down building schools in Columbia, their soldiers could only afford a couple cigarettes at a time from the PX. I recall him saying they made around $50 a month.

So, yeah, it's entirely possible that $3000 is a year's wage in some parts of the world.

 

Argentina, in fact right now I'm paying less than 250 dallars for rent in the area mentioned.
Here with dollars / euros you are king. (The economy and political conditions in terms of a Foreign Currency make this so here).
Of course You imagine an investment of 1500 dollars at once for unity pro is extraordinary hight for an indie, hobbiest, etc , middle economic class

 

still offtopic, but i have to:

I talk about safe free country's where you can live decent, and no need to worry to carry a gun with you, to feel safe. Fallowing your logic, I bet I can live with nothing somewhere in Africa...

 

The risk to be shot is pretty high in the USA compared to many places on this world. In many asian countries you can live cheap and safer than in the USA (safe from violence, but be careful with traffic).

 

How very ignorant of you...

 

I try to be realistic.

 

Well you failed Go check minimum wages in Spain, Portugal, Malta, Croatia, Greece and come back here, informed and realistic.

 

These are the responses I expected. But, people still don't get it. They're using UE4, with triple A godlike powers, and *not* expecting to break 3k (but are still expecting to make money)? what are they doing, firing turds at the engine or something?

My *real* point is that mixing this discount with such high end tech is revealing that people do not think very clearly or understand what they're even DOING making games for sale.

You can make 3k in 5 days flat without breaking sweat using gamesalad if you know what you're doing as a developer. Maybe that's far more important than the epic discount. Because if the discount is that important, then money is important to you, and therefore you really, really should know what business you're all in.

And when we're working at these scales, anyone with a brain will tell you it does take a lot longer to make a game in UE4. So again, do you understand why 3k is the wrong thing for anyone, in any part of the world to think about in these terms?

I'll spell it out again:

- you blow more time in UE4
- you are trying to make money
- time is money

- 3k is a big deal but you've just lost much more than that going with UE4 if you expect 3k to make the big difference.

There's some really broken logic here where 3k makes a big difference AND you pick UE4 as the tool to develop in.

Again I don't want to hurt feelings/offend people. I am being a little harsh but it's a harshness that I hope will wake people up to a different way of thinking.