SUGGESTION: Make a play tester area on the forums

This suddenly just struck me:

Why is there no play testing area on the forums???

Just an area where people can post their WIPs (preferably in webGL) and people can play it and give feedback.

Opinions?

 

Can't you already do that in the WIP forum and the Game Design (Feedback Friday) forum?

 

Or you release to Steam EA and get paying play testers

 

While this is true, I can see a lot more feedback if there was a section specifically dedicated to this.

I imagine seeing a section where every single thread is going to link to a build and forum members can casually go to it whenever and give feedback.

And it would definitely live by the motto "Show, don't tell", encouraging more would be devs to get to it.

 

Feedback Friday is currently handling this to a limited degree.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/feedback-friday-86-november-1-4-2019.770423/

 

Feedback Friday is about play testing specifically a minimally viable product, or vertical slice. I'd like to see, and what I think Not_Sure is getting at, is somewhere for testing more complete games. Like alpha/beta quality builds.

I know I'd like a place to give out some Steam beta keys and let people criticize the hell out of what I've been working on.

 

Probably because people are afraid of other people stealing their games.

 

honestly - i don't think there are enough people who have playable games.

I don't think feedback friday ever really had more than like two entries, in terms of 'large' games - its really hard to do feedback from forums i think.

 

Well put, there is alot of talk but very little to show

 

RIP WebGL

 

A lot of people simply wouldnt show them here I think.

For example, I have a major project that I have taken to publishers and gotten lots of interest on, but I wouldnt post anything about it yet on the forum nor do I have anything publically visible yet.

I am guessing a lot of people that are frequent users of this forum are in the same boat, working on something super secret and tasty, but unwilling to show it to the wider world yet.

 

If you look into
Made With Unity
you can see plenty of game made in Unity.
"Problem" is, most people post they already made game, without previous marketing, or even showing up on the forum, or with at most few posts. So these are as quickly buried as posted.

Edit:
For example this one
https://forum.unity.com/threads/low-poly-arcade-physics-style-bike-game.758600/
Made game, posted on forum and start kickstarter.

It speaks itself about game dev culture and selfishness during development, just to hide as much as possible. As result ... forgotten, even may be potentially good.

 

Promiting for devs are not that important, its more important to promote a head of release for your potential customer base.

 

@AndersMalmgren, thats the point, providing I understood you.
If someone make first appearance of the game, at the day of release, ignoring development period, is mostly already too late. Tons of crowd founded campaigns fails, just because of such negligence.

 

Yeah, but unity forum is not the place. Though it sounded on the other guy above that they keep it a complete secret, that's dumb

 

I definitely agree with that.

However, I don't see reason why not to start at Unity forum. Then of course, to use all means for marketing.

 

He was referring to all of the people who have signed non-disclosure agreements.

 

That's probably a very small portion of the Unity user base. And reading his text again ut most definitly does not sound like he are talking about People under nda

 

I think you should laser target your audience. That's smart. But thinking laser targeting is enough is foolish.
Mostly, natural selection is process of circumstance. In other words, dumb luck. So each avenue of marketing you do not use carries unmeasurable.lost cost of missed opportunity.
Hidden within the forums may just be that one person who, through some bizarre circumstance, is the key to getting your game the big break it needs.

You portion your time of course, but if you ain't inserting yourself into every little nook and cranny you basically taking on more risk than necessary. There is no downside at all to increased visibility. So if you got a devblpg anywhere by power of copypaste it ought to be everywhere.

 

I donno, I tend to think that associating with the unity forums too heavily is still a negative, because there's still some stigma around unity itself - and that if your pitch doesn't revolve around being 'crowd driven' ie: kickstarter early access, that it could actually hurt sales.

Simply, if someone googles the name of your game, if a unity thread comes up - I think that's enough to sway some customers away from buying the game.

I could be mistaken there, and things could be changing (they always are) - but 2-3 years ago when sterling was ranting about unity asset store flips, any association with this community would be a negative - especially with the hyper engaged customer base that's most likely to buy small indie titles.

I wouldn't want a game I really care about to come up associated with these forums in casual searches. Maybe in 3-4 more years, but still not today. That might miss out on some big break, but I think more likely its just gonna cost you 1 in 20 customers or something around 5% of sales.

 

If turning point for customer is engine, they can't have been hooked very strongly to begin with though right. This would indicate some more important part of your process needing more attention.

I would expect this to be a negligible factor. That's pure speculation, so it's absolutely worthless.

If you counting pennies, sure maybe is necessary to get your nose down that low, but seems like wrong place to focus my decision making processor power. It's like worrying about my nosehairs being plucked before first date, when really issue is I haven't updated my personality since I was ten.

 

@frosted Unity Engine is not a problem. The problem is, when you looking for 100s time another fps game, or tower defense, and all look the same, as they use same assets.

If yo u make unique game, with unique assets, that already halve success. See your and @BIGTIMEMASTER game for example. That even without marketing effort. You had nice polished product and deceit turnout of players. I doubt you have much players caring that is ANOTHER Unity game, since you had very positive reviews overall.

So all that Unity stigma for me is just some random noise in the sky.

 

Yeah I agree. We did update our thread title so that it wouldn't be first google.search return right when we launched, which I think was smart idea and certainly didn't hurt anything. But we also still had our unity thread obviously. And despite giving a free copy to everyone who is anyone here, we still got sales through this forum and lots of great feedback like reviews.

So that was a more nuanced approach we used. Got benefit from.posting here, but also covered tracks so what we wanted to appear on Google did.

And also, thinking less selfishly, this is how you help change the stigma. If everybody hides in shadows, it won't change. If you.proud of.your work, show it off wverywhere.

 

That's a fair take on the subject. Here's the counter argument:
- In terms of running a sustainable business, I'd rather count pennies than take long shots.

I can understand the other side of it, but in terms of running a business I'd prioritize stability over shooting the moon.

On the other hand:

I would agree with you 100%.

But, don't believe that many people are gonna be "hooked" pre-purchase at all. Indie games are going to be closer to like an impulse purchase, or the core customer profile is going to be kind of hardcore collectors.

Most people who are gonna buy the game have never heard of it before seeing the store page, will do a quick google search and hopefully execute an impulse buy.

 

That indicates the type of product you are aiming to make is what I get from it. Is what I would call a bottom feeder mindset. I don't mean that in negative way at all, I just referencing the kind of niche being worked and the way of working it.

For me, the artistic minded entrepreneur, there is only a single choice. Make the best game. A game so good that it stands completely unsupported by it's own merit. If I tried to make anything else, well that would just be work. And work is for chumps.

This is the tiger mentality. I am the top predator. I am the best and most magnificent. Doesn't mean ants and rats dont fair better than me but everybody respects the tiger. The tiger fails often and is hungry often but it also plays the hardest game. That's why it's so magnificent.

I think to get started from nothing, you have to be the tiger. If you try to mimic the ants before you have their numbers, ain't gonna get anywhere. Worst of all, if you don't know precisely what you are or have disconnect between what your ego believes and what reality is, you definitely going nowhere. Forever you will work in loops. This is why the most essential skill for any entrepreneur is seeing reality clearly.

In any case, when I study the few successful long term indie devs, I see tigers. When I think about how I want to play the game, I too want to be the tiger.

 

I get your point. Probably many wants to be tiger, but withouth knowing, often they / we are at most kitty-cats

Here is little idea for your next game. For stress relieve. Of course, making left character as main

Spoiler

 

Lol. You are not far off. I already began next game and it is about animals, is cartoon, and for kids. For myself, I think I like to stick with comedy too. It's just more fun.

I don't think average person is kitty cat. You can be whatever you choose. Key is knowing who you really are, not what ego wants to believe.

 

I don't think the data generally bare this out. The vast majority of the successful indie devs have long strings of ... kinda crappy releases that they rolled out before they hit the lotto.

There's also survivorship bias. Suggest you look this up.

I'm sure it feels really good to tell yourself you're an "alpha" or a "tiger" or whatever, but I don't think that in real life the examples actually back your opinion.

 

We know, that important is not what we say, but how we act.
If we make game which never sells / no one plays, that worse than being kitty-cat.
But if we act with marketing and successful crowd funding, then I could potentially call someone tiger.
Sometimes things don't work out ...

 

Just to be clear, my point was about prioritization.

• There is some chance that if you post about your game in the Unity forum, someone who has some clout might see it and give you a shot.
• There is also some chance that customers googling the game after seeing it on Steam will avoid purchase after seeing it on the Unity forum.

Personally, I think there is more value curating your search results than hoping to catch a big break from forum exposure of your game. I can respect a different evaluation, but that's my take on it.

The problem is when you start saying that successful devs all follow the "big break" mold. I don't think that's the case.

When you look at the examples of successful devs, the vast majority have a long list of releases they aren't particularly proud of, crappy games, or quick turn around games that were not made with 'heart and soul'. I believe that this is a really important aspect in developing a successful business in this industry.

Writing that off as "bottom feeding" is worse than just insulting, its actually horrible advice.

 

Sure, that definitely valid point.

Yep, number of released games is a big factor. But mind, with some exemptions, these devs, who had/have long lived experience, they figured out good composition through experience, even through pain and how to break ice. Or maybe is just a luck

And the fact, many can not afford to sit 5-10 years on one game. So something they need to cobble out to the world, to keep afloat.

 

I'm making an analogy about different ways to work a niche. I made a point about that. Don't be too sensitive or you miss the point.

In comparing the way one act to earn money in given ecosystem, your theory looks like bottom feeding to me. It's still a way to earn your money and do what you love. Seems perfectly.viable. nothing to be ashamed.of.

Being proud of your game or not is irrelevant. Giving your best effort while you work is prerequisite. Doesn't matter what approach you are taking, if you aren't doing your best you are wasting your own time.

When I am talking about behaving like a tiger, it's not about humoring myself. It's about methods and mindset you use to get prey.

As mentioned, tigers play the hardest game. They fail.fifty percent of time. If you don't like those odds, don't be tiger. Be ant, or rat. Totally different way of getting prey, and much better odds. Many ways to get the prey, but if you have almost zero resources that kind of narrows options down.

I'm using analogy here for brevity. You may lack reference or imagination to make connections, but by now you should know I don't make personal insults. Not in weak little backhanded way like that anyway. So don't take it like that.

Speaking of quick turn around, you had quit our project because it wasn't worth your time. In 3 months you were going to make another that would do better because ypu.can predict numbers, you say. Where is that game? It should be nearly ready? How is it going?

 

I can think of loads of valid goals behind posting about your commercial work here, but that one doesn't make the list. If you want to be noticed by people with clout then identify them, research them and pitch to them. Why leave to chance something which you can control?

How many customers Google a game before deciding whether or not to purchase? More importantly, how many of your target audience will Google a game before deciding whether or not to purchase?

You raised survivor bias before, which is valid and relevant. Same deal with confirmation bias. Yes, lots of people like us Google things before making purchase decisions. Many others don't.

Also keep in mind that there are ways to separate dev discussion separate from customer facing discussion. Giving projects a "working title" could be one method of doing that.

 

The hubris here is the belief that one - a beginner- can rely on cleverness to game the system. While foregoing tried and true paths to success like:
Honesty
Integrity
Maintaining strong relationships
Hard work
Dependability
...among other things.

It's a shallow view to think one can predict numbers, when they cannot reliably predict human behavior which drives those numbers, starting with themselves.

Just think, if you cannot maintain a friend in an extremely patient person who makes almost zero demands as a work partner and plays off your lead happily, what kind of communication skills are you using which will also serve you in communicating with an audience?

That's not insult, it's education. Many people never learn importance of communication and suffer all their life for it.

 

I'd agree with pretty much all of this.

"How many customers Google a game before deciding whether or not to purchase? More importantly, how many of your target audience will Google a game before deciding whether or not to purchase?"

I actually think this is a very large number, especially for indie titles. I could be wrong, and you could have a point on confirmation bias. But I'm gonna roll with my gut assessment on this. I think almost everyone will at least do a quick search on most games before they buy (assuming they've never heard of the title).

For most indie titles, from what information I've been able to collect, a lot of your customers (and especially reviewers) are borderline game collectors. They're super connected to the game industry and much more knowledgeable than most people. This is also why I would assume that being associated with Unity is still kinda a negative with this group (the reputation was really, really bad - although it is changing).

At least that's what I've seen from the customers from Hell's Crusade, especially the early purchasers (which are very, very important).

 

I think you're making some huge assumptions there without even realising it. For starters, have you taken mobile titles into account in your thinking? Because you say "indie titles", but I think what you're really talking about is "indie titles released on Steam targeting [a particular niche audience]".

My own experience lines up with your conclusion when it comes to enthusiast PC and/or console gamers, but a) I haven't looked for data to back that up and b) I know that audience is unlikely to be representative of people who play games in general.

The majority of people who eat food aren't "foodies". Same thing applies here. It's just a lot harder to see when you're a part of the enthusiast crowd mostly interacting with others who are also a part of that crowd.

 

Oh, yeah dude, 100%. That's me tunnel visioning on my preferred niche. I would expect mobile to work totally different.

I was speaking only about Steam with games that have an up front cost. Other markets or even other types of games on Steam (f2p for example) probably work very differently.

______________________
EDIT:

I would argue though that most of the customers you're looking at as a very, very small time developer on a market like Steam will not be "representative of people who play games in general". It takes a special kind of customer to even find your title in most cases.

I don't think you are looking at "the average" game consumer even if you're dealing with an indie hit that's pulling down millions. You're still dealing with niche gamers until you're legit AAA.

 

There is certain group which will google. But most of customers are just average Joes, which will buy, what is nice and shiny. Present it well on shopping page and you sold it. They will look at total score. The even may go to read reviews on the shopping page, but if that won't take them by a hart, they will leave this position.

People generally won't bother googling, if game is small and at resealable price. Also, if having good reviews, then even less need to search anywhere else. In the end, on Steam they can ask for refund. So no need googling before try.

 

Exactly!!!

Another of the huge assumptions I think you're making is that you need to put your game on Steam. People tend to think of Steam first and then tunnel vision themselves based on that. "Gamers on Steam want X, so that is what I should make." If you're approaching this as a business then you should ignore platforms to begin with and figure out where your audience is. Then figure out what platforms facilitate your ability to reach that audience.

Edit: For clarity... that's easier said than done, and until you can make games well I think it's a distraction anyway. Get good at making, and then start trying to sell.

Edited again, too.

 

QFT

My view is you need to be build the game making team first, validate enough to ensure predictability and dependability, and them through iteration and actual analytics do you dial in the market.

I do not advocate some idea that you gotta go big or go home. I advocate the opposite. It is a slow grind, that is why not getting bogged down in trivial minutia is so important. Especially if you overvalue microdata, it messes with your emotions, leading to brash, thoughtless decisions.

 

Yeah, I should really learn more about other markets. Switch is supposed to be really great for indies also, since its got a barrier to entry but its not super high.

 

Normally our WIP page comes very low on google, right now though it sits on last entry on first page but thats just because we have paused marketing until we get closer to release our major single player / coop release but keep posting on WIP so rises.

VR attracts smart people, they dont care about engine as long as the game is good

 

It's still a "core gamer" market, though, and so many "indies" seem to be blind to the fact that other markets exist.

Take a look at Big Fish, for example, and note that their discount prices on comparatively simple games are higher than the base prices of many Steam games.

 

I know this thread has taken a bit detour,
but I also think would be great to have a gameplay feedback area, devoid of marketing.
Other developers can probably give a lot more direct feedback on specifics, if they understand the intentions behind something, than what non-developers can.

Not sure if the wip forum is a place to give feedback unless it's asked for specifically, and you rarely or never get a chance to test the gameplay anyway.

 

@Kemonono why you think WIP is not good place? In the end, you asking to test game during production, not yet finished, which will require most likely polishing. Or sometimes major changes.

For me is perfectly fine to post even early access type game, while in alpha/beta stage.

The major difference here is, in Unity forum, you got an opportunity to receive feedback on gameplay, as well as technical aspects. That much more, if you for example ask for feedback on reddit. You target audience may be deferent.

Consider current traffic on WIP forum, I am not sure if diluting to another sub forum would be much beneficial.

 

Well, it's probably fine to ask for hard feedback there, I guess.

But for me, as both a reader and contributor, the WIP forum has been a total mess for many years now (imo).
It's a mix of every platform including unity plugins, most of the content is either posted as semi-marketing, or as a personal blog, very rarely is there anything posted for feedback, or is specified if it is even wanted.
Which is, for me, the biggest reason why I don't spend much time going through threads there personally.

 

WIP is more or less dead. I get a like or two on my posts, thats it.

 

This is part, in which person need keep posting updates.
There tend to be quiet for a while true. But there are people watching, potentially waiting for a release.
So it is never the less, building up fan base, however small, or large it is.

 

If you want feedback you need to post in general, but always a risk to have it moved by mod, if you are not one of the untouchables

 

Friday Feedbacks are great!!! One of my artists made a game and she showed it off on Friday Feedback. It is her very first game and since we moved here recently, we have no friends really other than our small game dev meetup group to playtest for us.

So...she posted (I admit, it was my turn to do Friday Feedback that week) and she got lots of feedback from the developers here. So much so that this weekend she is showing off her game at a convention and doing a focus group for more feedback. She would not have had to courage to do so if she had not first tried it here, with people who could give real constructive feedback.

Yes, it is scary to show off your game. But..since you are most likely showing a slice or a prototype first, it is unlikely someone is going to steal your game before it is completely done. Besides....fear will keep you from progressing so take a chance. More likely your game will be stolen in Google Play after you release it than here.

So do it! Almost every Friday-Monday, one of the volunteers is here is hosting on the Design forum. Go check it out.

I will be unable to do the third weekend this month, but Aynsley, my artist who is presenting her game, will fill in for me while I am out of town. She is a relatively new developer but has been working with us for years as an artist. Go say hi and encourage others by giving them feedback.