Sexism in the Spotlight

I said:

You said:

Just no, dude.

 

You also said:

So those two plus the one you quoted are the three I am talking about.

 

You're reaching too far though and if I wasn't so laid back I'd be offended by it

 

Those are your direct quotes. I'm not "reaching".

 

Let me turn it around, and tell me if you think it's "respectful" when I'm insulting people who share your opinion instead:

If anyone actually likes Bayonetta, it's probably because they're still living in a basement. It's only insecure people who eagerly worship big-breasted cartoons as if they were actual women. I think it's healthy for an adult to be disinterested in ridiculous childish cartoon porn.

I'm pretty sure that if I said that, you would just immediately close the thread and accuse me of trolling. So, it's fine if you want to hurl petty insults at the other side, but don't pretend that it's "respectful" and that you're taking a moral high ground.

 

You seem to have missed my point entirely somehow. I recommend reading the post again. You do know what Review is, right? Did you also not bother reading when I pointed out that the commentary made should be written as an opinion or editorial instead? How is that advocating silencing someone, exactly?

This rhetoric of "you oppose my views therefore you are trying to silence me" is exactly the kind talk that stirs the hornets nest and provides no solution to the issue

You tell me, can you state your particular problem in a concise manner?

My understanding is that people are complaining about games not being inclusive. My proposed solution was that people make games more inclusive by helping bring in more varied game developers into the community, rather than try to shame existing ones into submission.

Really? Is that so? You may want to educate yourself a little bit before you hold people like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn as pillars of social activism.

I myself though? Done my research. If you truly think civil rights activists only sat around and complained then that makes me very sad. These people did far too much for society to be piled in with people like that.

A real social activist would be using the funding they gained from their Patreon/Kickkstarter to grant STEM scholarships. Or Game school scholarships, or something.

They care about their own pockets, and complain to get themselves more funding, not to further their causes. Their pursuit is a selfish one, but they claim grandiose piety.

That is not an activist. That is someone looking to make a living. And that's ok. But I would *never* pile them in with the people actually doing the work. Sorry.

 

Does this apply to anyone in this thread or to the review? I haven't seen the word activism used in the way you mean it, but I do think that pointing out social issues (which I think is how you're defining "complaining" here?) is a very mild (but real) form of activism. It's certainly an 'activity' that can have an effect—increased awareness, compromise, and mutual understanding.

I guess it's a sticky question whether or not sexism is worth consideration in a review; I'd say that it is if we're to consider games as artistic experiences that go beyond a narrow definition of "fun" as the only thing that matters when choosing a game to purchase.

If we're going to view the movie critic as parallel to the game critic, which I think works pretty well, then wouldn't a movie critic be justified pointing out egregious sexism in a rated movie review?

Choosing reviewers who can "handle" a game sounds alarmingly close to choosing reviews who "appreciate" the game. What do you feel is the difference?

 

I'm curious what you mean, here. Do you disagree that Sarkeesian is a social activist?

Can we extend the benefit of the doubt to everyone in this thread and assume that they're on this board because they're interested in making games that reflect their ideology – in addition to commenting on it? As for sole critics, I don't know if it's worth dismissing them all just because they aren't activists in the way you've described them.

 

I wasn't pointing out anyone here. I mean the "figureheads" currently in the spotlight making all the noise and spreading the damaging rhetoric of "you're with me or against all women". I think it's healthy to discuss this sort of thing, but the crusades that these people embark on, are not. Like I said, if they were providing solutions instead of looming over others like vultures waiting for someone to stumble, I'm all for it.

In terms of Reviews and sexism: I think it could be valid, depending on the game. Would you review pac man and score it less because there are no women in the original one? I'd argue that the review of the game needs to match the game itself. You can't review an "Art Game" under the same standards as an Action game, any more than you can review an RTS with the same standards as an FPS.

 

You're saying that anyone who doesn't like oversexualization shouldn't be allowed to be an actual reviewer, because you only want to see reviews that see oversexualization in a positive light. Not letting dissenters actually review anything ever is advocating to silence them. Not as in literally gagging them, but stopping them from being able to actually have a voice within reviews.

My problem in this instance would be that people in this thread are acting like hypocrites by pretending that one review out of twenty that dislikes Bayonetta represents some kind of scary authoritarian feminist threat that needs to be stopped. My solution is to talk about it in this thread. I'm not sure what else you expect me to do about it.

No, this thread is mostly a bunch of people all agreeing with each other that Bayonetta is awesome and that the one bad review should be ignored, and two people questioning why punishing that one reviewer is such a big deal.

I never mentioned either of them, though I will admit I'm definitely far more on their side than on the side of the insane terrorism campaign against them. It doesn't matter if you don't like them; literal terrorism is not an acceptable response to disliking someone's opinions.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people like you SAID that all they did was sit around and complain.

For someone who's allegedly "done their research", it doesn't sound like you know what activism is. MLK and Gandhi didn't leave their marks by donating money to scholarships.

 

Though, somewhat off topic, it occurs to me that one of Gandhi's most successful tactics was indeed to do "nothing but sit around and complain". Dude wouldn't even get up to go cook some noodles.

 

I will admit that I am not Sarkeesian's biggest fan. I am still going through her transcripts before making an ultimate judgement call. However, I hope we can all agree that what happened in that incident was atrocious.

Lets also agree, though, that the people that did that represent an extreme, and disagreeing with Sarkeesian does not mean that you support the actions of the other side in the slightest.

 

I think it's fine to disagree with Sarkeesian, but it's not ok to rally under the banner of "Gamergaters". That's like joining the KKK but saying you only like the nice Klansmen and can't be blamed for the racist ones.

 

As long as they keep it off the streets and out of real life, whatever floats there boat. If people like it, let them like it.. Generalisation is the route of all evil, it might not occur to some people some women may like 3D flappers sailing in the wind.. Again, whatever floats there boat.

We do need to hold hands and all get along, seriously if I had time to really care about politics and scandals in the game industry.. Then chances are I'd be retired, rich and have nothing better to do.

 

The attitudes expressed in that old poem calling America to imperialism in Asia still exist. Gotta liberate those poor Japanese from their sexist culture! And don't any of you Japanese have an opinion on that!

When the definition of sexism has been broadened to the point of including the erotic as sexist, then yes you have become a puritan. When the definition of sexism is broadened to the point of failing to recognizing that other cultures have a right to different attitudes towards erotica it becomes dangerous in it's ignorance.

It certainly comes across that way. Mari is a very respected artist in this field. Artists from all over the world find her work inspiring and innovative. She is successful on her terms and her peers admire her work. I have seen her called a 'gender traitor' for her work. It seems in certain circles in the west you can only be a woman working in games if you toe a certain ideological line and dye your hair a neon color.

Go for it. Point out what you think the problems are. However we reserve the right to highlight the history of western wrongs brought on Japan and apply our own lenses to filter out the western cultural hegemony from the critique. You can not separate western critiques of Japanese culture from Euro centrism and American imperialism. Especially when those critiques originate in government funded academic institutions.

If critics can't appreciate and properly contextualize a game from a foreign culture and evaluate it on the merits of that culture they should recuse themselves from cultural critique. Unless of course you are trying to incite xenophobia and moral panic.

 

That would be silencing a whole lot of people. Like, basically the entire planet except for people with dual PhD's in sociology and world history. I think you have a point that it can be important to understand sexualization as it is portrayed in other cultures, but I don't agree that people should not be allowed to criticize it, especially when it is a game that has been imported, translated and sold to their own country.

 

Oh I am not saying they can't write their reviews, in fact I kind of like that they do, it lets me know who the ignorant ones are and I can avoid their noxious opinions.

Honestly I would settle for so called critics making even a BASIC attempt at properly contextualizing Japanese games. Right now the sites in the spotlight all have a very blatant neo-Eurocentric POV that they refuse to acknowledge. Hell they could just start the review with a polite "I don't understand Japanese culture at all, I don't care to understand it all, in fact I openly despise Japanese pop-culture, please take that into account when reading this review". They would be saving a lot of people a lot of time.

 

No.. Just uninformed except through propaganda. Sexism ain't a one way street. You would swear it is if you bought this BS hook, line and sinker. I treat all equal except idiots. I do not have to suffer idiots regardless of their ideology/ies.

 

It's not sad to me. I call it embracing reality. Lol

 

It says something, how many people are arguing against censorship and for their right to scantily clad game characters when nobody here has said characters can't be sexy or that games should be censored.

 

Heh, I agree, though it's odd to me that you seem to notice the internalized neo-Eurocentric POV but not the internalized straight male POV.

 

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page here regarding this, though i honestly am not 100% sure what Gamergate's prime motive/mindset is. There seems to be a variety of opinions within the 'movement' itself, but that might just be because lots of people like using hashtags (maybe someone could sum it up for me?).

In regards to reviews on games, I think Eric Kain has a point when he says that a lot of gamers don't like some of these reviews "because many readers don’t want to be told what’s good or bad about a game’s social politics, they just want to hear about the game itself". While the social nuances of a game are worth discussing, I think games have been heavily politicized of late, to the point where people are categorizing good or bad games based on their supposed agenda rather than the quality of gameplay.

Not trying to make sweeping generalizations or pointing fingers, just making an observation.

 

To sane people, they're a group of angry misogynist trolls from 4chan who launched a campaign to terrorize a handful of women in the game industry with threats against their families and got a bunch of clueless guys to endorse them by using typical reactionary right-wing fearmongering. To gamergaters, they are the last bastion of defense in a world where a giant feminist conspiracy that spans the entire gaming industry is out to destroy games and rule the world, and it is all inexplicably led by two sinister masterminds of supreme power: a girl who made a youtube video once and a girl who made a free text game.

The problem is that when oppression doesn't affect you personally, it's just "social politics" and can be ignored, but when oppression does affect you personally, it affects your entire life and you get annoyed that everyone else keeps telling you to shut up so they can more easily ignore you.

 

The concept of gender politics is a part of the neo-Eurocentric POV. It's a western cultural phenomenon. Most cultures aren't rich enough to pay people to sit around in fancy buildings contemplating their genitals and how they relate to identity. Such a deconstruction of sex and gender is only possible in societies with extreme wealth. Time will tell if it's a worthwhile investment.

 

Wow, sorry, but that is complete and utter crap. Women in Bangladesh who have been scarred with acid for disobeying their husbands are not speaking out against it because it's the cool American thing to do; it's because they had F***ing acid thrown in their F***ing face. Women have fought against oppression in all cultures throughout all of history. Japan is no exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_Japan

 

There are massive differences between first and thirdwave feminism and radical gender politics. Don't pretend there isn't.

 

So? That has nothing to do with what you said.

 

No it has everything to do with what I said. The west has moved far beyond firstwave feminism. They aren't fighting for basic rights, they are experimenting with new ideas and concepts of gender.

 

So? I said that you seem to understand internalized nationalism but not internalized sexism and you responded with what I assume meant "There is no sexism in Japan, only Americans believe in sexism". Otherwise, I'm not sure how that response had anything to do with what I said.

 

Is anyone dismissing Japanese opinions of Bayonetta? Dismissal isn't the same as criticism, wouldn't you agree?

My definition of sexism is not that broad. I've requoted my criticism below:

In this game, it's the representation of sexuality as the source of a woman's power that I find sexist. Do you still feel that is a puritan point of view?

If it's ignorance, then surely the solution would be to point out how the Japanese attitude towards erotica that you feel is characterized by Bayonetta is socially progressive? I'm interested.

Does my criticism of her work constitute a rejection of her right to work in the game industry, though? I feel that is quite a stretch and that you're using my argument as a proxy for someone else's.

Anyway, how does her respectability and popularity change the issue? This fallacy is an appeal to celebrity.

If they can't be separated, then you won't ever be able to see critique from Europe or the U.S. as anything but imperialist. Surely there's some baby in that bathwater.

You're poisoning the well, there. I'm interested in Bayonetta's cultural context, but I do think that context includes the west, since it is both marketed and consumed here. To reiterate, though, I'd be interested in learning more about how Bayonetta's culturally distinct view of gender is more compatible with social justice in its home country, if that's what you claim.

It just feels like you're dismissing all discussion of gender politics as irrelevant. You really don't think gender equality is important? That's honestly what it sounds like.

I think this is a necessary step if game developers ever want to be considered artists in the same way that e.g. filmmakers are. One can criticize a mindless action movie based on its politics just as readily as an art film, and that's okay!

 

So it's okay for you to worship big-breasted women in public, since *they* are real?
Sexist hypocrite! lol

 

I just knew someone was going to quote my "what if i said this" quote out of context. Oh, internet, you never fail to disappoint.

 

Context? The context of breast worshipping?

 

Truly I weep for the next generation.

No, the context is that I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THAT, I was just pointing out that if I said it, people would be rightfully offended, and that it's no different than making the same insult about people who don't like Bayonetta.

 

Take a moment, and put your hands over your breasts and feel your heart rate. That's not normal.
Relax. Say to yourself, "It's just the Internet"... again.... again.... and again.

 

Pfffffft, if you think that was ranting, you clearly haven't seen some of my finer posts in this forum. That one registered like a 0.4 on the rage meter; my rage goes up to 11.

 

That's just way too angry. 10.99999 is the highest it should go.

 

Wait, so is your only issue with bayonetta that on the cover is a depiction of woman who clearly flaunts her tits and ass? I would deem that extremely puritanical. You might as well have just said it's sexist because it lowers your self esteem.

It's complaining about something skin deep instead of something like Other M. Now there is something actually sexist and worth your ire.

 

How did you take "the representation of sexuality as the source of her power" and think it meant "i don't like the cover art on the box"?

 

Because most people's impressions seem to be based more on the cover art and any depiction of her than any part of the actual game.

 

Lol... YOU haven't played the game yet are defending it. It sounds like Marble has played it or at least knows about it. The entire point of Bayonetta is over-the-top gratuitous sexualization. Her superpower basically is literally "being sexy". You do special attacks by magically making your clothes disappear and getting naked while saying cheesy porn girl pickup lines. She's got stiletto heels that have guns in them and you shoot them by doing various sexy pinup poses. You can argue that it's good or bad, but there's no way you can realistically deny the blatant hypersexualization.

 

Game of the F***in' Year!

 

Different types of media can coexist that appeal to different people. I think the real problem here is people thinking in absolute terms on both sides.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Bayonetta must cease to exist. People are up in arms that one reviewer out of like twenty docked it one point for the oversexualization. Other people are saying that the reviewer should be allowed to give whatever score he wants in his review. The reviewer even said it was a good game and gave it a high score, but it wasn't a perfect score, and that is somehow proof of the evil feminist conspiracy "oppressing" poor innocent men.

 

That's something a evil feminist plotting against men would say!

 

NO! MY PLANS HAVE BEEN REVEALED! FEMINIONS, TO ME! TO ME!

 

You just made my day.

 

Sexist BS bloviated bodewashery at it's core.

 

Are you sad that everyone's ignoring you in this thread?

 

There are definitely people dismissing it. It was being condemned before it was even released. The radical ideologues were never going to give it a chance.

Yes, it is very puritan, downright Calvinistic. The fact that Bayonetta is a witch makes all the this Calvinist hate and fear disguised as criticism all the more hilarious. All the Bayonetta hate is a literal witch hunt! It also makes me wonder if you have played either of the games.

Erotica acknowledges the creative and awesome power of human sexuality. Erotica encourages the exploration of human sexuality and the celebration of it. Bayonetta owns her sexuality, she doesn't shy from it, she doesn't apologize for it. It's hers and she will use it as she pleases. It's great that these people find it so offensive and problematic that a fictional character created by a woman expresses sexuality in such a brazen and confident way. Art is supposed to push and challenge people, this resistance and hate is exactly that, people being challenged. Bayonetta's design could only have been done by a woman it's too genuine, it's exaggerated yes, but it's genuine, it's the real deal.

So pointing out that she is a respected member of the global game development community, who is admired globally for her contributions to the art form is somehow a fallacy? To say that acknowledging a woman as being respected, admired and celebrated in a global industry as competitive as the games industry, in one of the most competitive disciplines in the industry is a fallacy is a very disturbing thing to say. Mari has earned her place in the history of the games industry through hard work. Women are celebrated in this industry, Mari may not champion the pet causes that you want, Her hair might not be neon, but she is still a woman and her contributions will not be diminished.

I would really think with the climate of women in the western game market right now more people would be championing Mari and Bayonetta's success, not finding excuses to knock her work down. Mari and the Bayonetta project as a whole are role models for the western industry.

Perhaps that's because it is imperialist? Is it not enough that Japan be nuked twice (I could make a case for Fukushima being a third nuke delivered through US corporate welfare), endure military occupation with no end in sight, have their economy hollowed out through petro-dollar hegemony, and now see their population trend towards collapse as more and more young men just give up ever having a future? Sorry but that is a very deep and very hot 'bath'. Can't they just have their video games or must Japan submit to the west in every imaginable way? When the American empire is done and if Japan survives as a nation we can talk about the so called 'baby'.

Why can't it just be accepted for what it is? Why does it have to be about social justice or any other political issue the western elites deem important? The world doesn't revolve around the American empire, I know it's tempting to think so, especially in the USA! Don't you think it's interesting that a woman is responsible for so much of the global success of Bayonetta? Isn't that interesting and awesome? Why is that so hard to accept? I see what the western media holds up as examples of women game designers, why is Mari not good enough? Why not celebrate her? I really hope it's not because she is Japanese and made something that displeases the imperial cultural elites!

I am not sure where you would think I don't think equality is important. I am the one championing the women in the field not attacking them for perceived sexism. I am the one accepting Mari's creation and vision that she has labored long and hard for. I am the one listening and believing in her and her artistic vision. You are the one projecting perceived failings on it for not living up to your imperial value system. If you want to talk about gender politics and Bayonetta maybe focus on how her portrayal in Bayonetta 2 is a 'queering'. There is definitely some gender bending going on. In fact there is a lot to talk about when it comes to queer and Japanese pop culture.

Developers are considered artists by the only people that matter, the people who buy and appreciate their games. The only people going through this hand wringing drama of "are games art?" crap are games studies academics in rich western nations looking for a reason to justify tenure and online critics who are waking up to the fact that writing about games on the internet isn't exactly a rare skill. Thankfully few people give a damn what the games studies people think and the audience for game review websites is drying up.

Sorry if I come across angry, it's not personal. I am just fed up with what I see as blatant imperial hypocrisy in western media when it comes to women in games. It's not all about the USA or the west, it's a GLOBAL industry!