Recent ToS update blocks the use of SpatialOS to make games in Unity

I will quote an already known information, I wonder why I need to do this.

100% agree.

Nothing to do with Unity's EULA or the dispute between these two companies.

This is BS. The two has nothing to do with each other. Allowing a rival company to breach your ToS is unreasonable expectation. Especially because they communicated that they have intent to allow existing projects to run on grey area-developed tech in order to protect them, which Improbable ignored and went on a PR-stunt instead.

 

Seems fair to me that approved platforms need to be public information due to that case. I see you are looking at Gamelift, and like you said there are other major services that operate pretty much the exact same way SpatialOS does. Take a look at Playfab's custom game servers - you use their SDK and upload your compiled game to their service where they can manage it via the SDK hooks including scaling up/down, matchmaking, etc. Sound familiar?

 

You haven't answered the other part, i.e. how what HippoCoder said differs from running your authoritative server on a third party machine.

As for Steam - just because Unity doesn't stop people from distributing on Steam doesn't mean their ToS doesn't prohibit it. They're not obligated to enforce their ToS. Their lack of action does not prove what their ToS legally says or does not say.

For reference:

Note that they earlier define the "Unity Runtime" as "the runtime portion of the Unity Software", indicating that "Unity Software" includes the runtime. My reading may be wrong - however it's entirely reasonable to read it as meaning distribution of games via third party servers is in fact prohibited.

Hence the needed - and apparently underway - rewording of the ToS. So I don't want to get dragged into the nitty gritty. Once again, I'm just saying it's really not as clear as some are making it out to be. And if it was there would be no need to reword the ToS. Which is happening. So yeah. God this is tiring.

 

Tim Sweeney has shared a timeline on Twitter that it was done in a few hours, which I can believe as I have heard of money before for switchers, so it way probably existing money highlighted rather than new money sourced.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/...o/iframe/twitter.min.html#1083791252162834433

 

I gave a white/grey/ black option...
And you picked to put yourself in the 100% loyalist slot lol .

 

That's not true. In a court room in a very unlikely event when Unity sues you because you published your legal Unity-based game on steam, you easily dismiss any such action just showing the plethora of Unity-based games on Steam and the lack of action they took. It's not enforceable if they choose to not to enforce.
Also this action would require explicit notification from their side which obviously didn't happen. So even if you choose to read this way, it's useless temper tantrum, not a real legal problem.

Nope. Context is everything. They are talking about services and those who make those services. Even if you were right in everything else, it wouldn't against you, it would against Steam. (Obviously it isn't)
And yes, you're wrong.

ROFL. I like the fact that you slide in from time to time, drop some over-chewed, refuted things and then you immediately tell us that you don't want to be part of the discussion. ROFL.

 

Elon Musk and Mike Cannon-Brookes made a 50 million dollar bet that Tesla could build a giant battery for Australia in 100 days. The deal was done on twitter in a few hours.

And it actually happened: https://www.smh.com.au/business/mik...ttery-bet-with-elon-musk-20171124-gzsj25.html

When you are flush with crazy amounts of cash like Epic is after their recent windfall these kinds of crazy stunts become pretty easy.

Not denying there is a possibility that it was organised before hand, but Epic seems to be acting pretty impulsively these days, I think its more likely they just tried to capitalise on an opportunity.

 

I'm not surprised. Like I mentioned somewhere (either this thread or the one about UFOs), Tim Sweeney likely has contracts for exactly this type of situation and if he doesn't it isn't that hard to say something and draw up the actual contracts after the fact. He's valued at several billion dollars for a reason. He's just as much a businessman as he is a developer.

 

Yeah although Musk can stand toe to toe with tencent itself, it's a completely different league, but I accept the point made

 

Its kind of interesting, if it ever does get to legal proceedings Unity may be shooting themselves in the foot a bit.

The juxtaposition of legal terms and technology terms often results in ambiguity which can take a lot of discovery and argument to resolve (and is often never resolved satisfactorily). Improbable may argue that Unity's ToS were meaningless as Unity themselves have admitted that the ToS were unclear (thats why they amended them), and now they have admitted that the new ToS are still unclear and that they are going to work on clarifying them.

To be honest I wish they would all just suck up their pride and come to an agreement

EDIT: I wonder if they are still talking to each other or if its all down to PR statements and lawyers now.

 

I think that will happen as soon as Improbable co-found the $25M fund to convert poor Unreal developers to Unity.

I expect allowance for ongoing projects but I highly doubt that they would come to an agreement unless Improbable goes back to the table with some lucrative package for contract. But I'm proven wrong multiple times when I tried to foresee the future, so anything can happen.

 

Who can tell? In my case I would still do business with Improbable but my price would be higher for the negative press incurred, not much but what I would consider being an accurate amount. That's just me though, and I don't make anything in business personal except for the product itself, which must always have a personal touch to it.

I don't believe businesses should allow pride to interfere when it comes to doing the best by the customer. The customer may not always be right, but they should always be looked after regardless.

Anyway I don't think Improbable matters any more and I've lost interest in talking about them, because I think we're all more interested in the ToS and how that relates to us personally, wouldn't you agree?

 

I didn't say whether it was enforceable. I said whether or not they enforce it doesn't change what the ToS say.

That's up for legal debate. It is not clear-cut. Which, once again, is what I've been saying all this time.

Every single thing in this thread has been "refuted", on both sides, multiple times. It's all been chewed over. Hippo brought it up, again, apropos of nothing. I was attempting, again, to say it's not that simple or clear cut. Hippo and others keep saying "let Unity clarify their ToS before we dive deeper" - with which I heartily agree - and then both sides start telling the other that it's patently obvious to anyone with brains that the other side is 100% wrong, no questions asked, law degrees not required.

I do keep sliding in, largely to tell people it's not that simple. I don't slide in to occasionally say "ROFL" dismissively. I genuinely do not want to keep getting caught up in the nitty gritty, but people keep reverting to the default of "EVERYONE ELSE IS TOTALLY WRONG". Sue me for wanting to encourage people to be reasonable.

 

I agree, although you can substitute pride for image (with the implication that this affects the top line). Improbable took a step back with their second blog post (although slightly), but any progress from that post was probably erased once the Epic fund was announced.

 

Then let's wait for the news next week patiently together.

 

Yes, should probably get back to doing some work!

 

Unity needs to address, their stealth introduction of "second class" personal licenses in Asia for indie developers. They started watermarking our games without warning at the beginning of December last year and we still haven't had a blog post or update to the TOS to reflect this unwelcomed and unannounced change. I'm posting this here to help bring attention to what has happened to indies in Asia. And because it is a second case of Unity making an unannounced change that has negatively affected developers.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/i-a...-trial-version-water-mark-after-build.591610/

Even visiting the region is enough to get your personal license silently replaced with one that adds "trial version" to all your builds without any notice or warning:

"I wanted to add my personal experience with the watermark, which came as a result of my travel from US to Asia, in case it is helpful...

I live in the U.S.A., but recently traveled to Hong Kong for 4 weeks. When I was working on my game there the "trial version" watermark suddenly showed up. I use Unity "Personal" for projects < $100,000 (with the intent of reaching that "goal post"). I emailed support and they told me to email accountchina [at] unity3d.com to get the issue resolved. It did, and the watermark went away.

THEN... I returned to the US and the watermark reappeared! I emailed support again who told me I needed to completely un and reinstall Unity (which has been a huge pain) but it didn't resolve the issue. Thanks to some help from a someone at the accountchina [at] unity3d.com address above, I was instructed to delete the license files in (on Mac) /Library/Application Support/Unity and now the watermark is gone. So, thanks." - post by ow3n on Unity forum

 

Oh James. I only say this because I know you. This is not a war. We do not have to take sides. As you know very well, I use the tool that suits me best. I have been accused of being disloyal before because I did not use the "right tool". I am sick of that behavior.

Unity is my tool because I know how to use it and it works for what I need. If something better came along and it was as easy to use, I might look at it...although with clients now we are tied to Unity.

However, I will not stop using what works for me because of infighting or threats and name calling. I certainly will not switch because of this fight.

You have had your own fights and you know. It is not very nice of you to start tossing accusations around. I defended you, if you remember. At the risk of my own reputation. I do not regret that but I am beginning to understand a lot more than I did before.

 

I like this, really is stupid that many Personal version users suffer eye problems because cant use a simple thing like a dark theme that almost aplications offers for free.

 

You can easily find the answer to this in the linked thread of yours and beyond. People in China/Taiwan/HK seem to like cracking Unity and Unity is trying to prevent that by flagging the 'Personal Edition' with the "Trial version" label. Sure, we could now talk about what a bad idea this is, but this thread here is not the right place for such talk - mainly, because it has nothing to do with the current issue (Improbable breaching Unity Tech's TOS for years).

 

Oh for the sake of everything you hold dear stop this BS. There is no basis of this on any level not to mention that we expect changes on this part in 2019 and it literally has nothing to do with the current discussion.

BTW, if you work in the dark at night, turn on your f* lights, you hurt your eyes with that, not with Unity.

 

This is not a solution, work with Unity Personal at nigth is a complete nightmare.

 

Yes it is. It is not healthy working in the front of the screen at night in the dark. Regardless of the color of the UI and regardless of the Unity.

 

First off im not james..(josh).
But im only joking with you reguardless.. I respect you as ive scene your posts through the years in multiple threads here..

What i dont understand in this thread is alot of people posting their worries about the issue, and small handful of people telling them there is no issue ,that Unity has everyones best interest in mind although their current tos says otherwise.
Although i have no idea about the actual issue between the two companies(none of us really do), that fact that the Unreal head posted unitys tos and basically made fun it, shows it has issues. Even if it was mostly him Just jabbing at unity...

 

Obviously, I've read the thread, and you have it wrong this is not about "cracking Unity" and this has been applied to all legitimate personal licenses, even visiting Asia from the west is enough to get your personal license secretly changed and have it add a "trial version" watermark in the lower right corner of all your builds. The excuse given was actually that pirates/hackers of games were re-building games using personal licenses and that by punishing all of us by adding trial version markers without warning this would help deter those hackers/pirates. Nothing is stopping said pirates/hackers from using a Pro license, a VPN, or a hacked version of Unity to work around this trial version watermark.

This is very relevant to this thread as another example where Unity handled licensing terms poorly (arguably even worse than how they have handled the improbable case). We had no communication until after the fact and only via email. They did not even take the time to post in the forum thread. They have made no blog post about this before after the fact. They have not updated their terms on the website or in Unity. You go through the same licensing form as always to apply for a Personal license and then they give you this second class license with unexplained watermarks. If you can't see the relevance I don't know what else to say.

 

If Unity wants to add a third license when we sign up from Asia, then they should be upfront about us and treat all their customers with the same respect. The license dialog should add this third option in Asia. It should say "Trial License" not "Personal License" and it should clearly state that it will add a watermark and why it is adding said watermark.

 

I've been using Unity since 2009 and have been their fan and proponent all this time. I still do not regret using Unity and want them to continue to succeed but a good friend will warn you when they think you are going down the wrong path or suspect that you may have made a poor choice.

 

There is no issue for us game developers. That clause in the ToS isn't really meant for us (see the response from @Joachim_Ante under Unity's blog post here - link might not jump to his comment, so better search for his name via Ctrl+F).

Everything else has been said already, so it doesn't really make sense to regurgitate this over and over again. Just have patience 'til they sort this out this coming week.

 

I feel his follow up responses have been good and it definitely makes me feel unity is still going in the right direction , but til there is a new updated tos that this thread needs to stay active.. If only to remind them of how important it is...

 

Out of boredom I took screen captures of his posts and the posts he was responding to. Just in case people wanted to see them without having to scroll/search the blog page.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

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Spoiler

 

I keep checking this thread but am getting dizzy by the circles everyone is talking in. I'm glad tomorrow is Monday and we might get a conclusion to this mess from Unity.

 

You need to differentiate between Unity Software and Project Content


8.5 “Project Content” means games, applications, software or other content that you develop with the Unity Software.

8.13 “Unity Software” means all versions and updates of all the downloadable Unity Pro, Unity Plus and Unity Personal software products identified on Unity’s website.

[EDIT] iirc, someone already posted this somewhere in the middle of this thread...

 

Lol

My eye doctor told me not to use dark backgrounds. Black is not any better for eyes than light. Try google. Unless you have issues as I do, it does not matter. It is a personal choice.

Why is this here anyway???

 

More than a little ridiculous that we're getting those updates in blog comments as opposed to anywhere searchable and easily accessible, like the forums, or another blog post. Also, blog posts and comments do not carry the same weight, legal or otherwise, as the ToS.

 

Oh it is now the throw as much dirt as possible and see what sticks...and do it over and over. Entertaining at least.

 

Yikes! I confused you with a post by a guy I know!! So sorry, to you and James.

Of course there is an issue. But it is Sunday. Come on, be realistic. We will hear something this coming week most likely.

Thanks for the respect, but the joke fell flat. Personally I get tired of being accused of not being loyal or of being loyal to a tool. My family and friend? Yep. My team? Yep. A tool? It is there to use to make money.

I am not married to a tool!!! My husband can tell you that.

Those of us who take a wait and see attitude do so because the sky really is not falling. We defend to balance the hyberbole. Not because we do not believe there is an issue here.

The sun will come up tomorrow. Life goes on.

 

lol What am I being accused of doing now? lol I haven't posted in here all day today due to being busy and waiting to see what the new ToS says before passing any more judgement... I come in here though to check on the discussion and I see I'm being accused of something... lol

 

Can we accuse you of thinking you're special enough to make it solely about you?

 

What does Teila's post have to do with you, exactly?

 

lol I know Teila... I'm the James she was talking about... She and I have been contacts for several years now.

BUT I have been known to be wrong on a few occasions... lol

 

Actualy he is the James who has been mixed up with Josh. Or something.

:telenovela: : popcorn:

 

Ah, that makes sense now.

Hopefully not about that second point. I'd hate for you to be wrong about knowing you're James.

 

lol No I'm pretty sure I'm James I THINK I can safely say that's not something I am wrong about. lol

Though my Game Development could go a whole lot smoother if I could change who I am... Get away from past projects I've been associated with. lol

 

Some metrics I talked about in a post earlier on this thread:

Unity developer/social activity wins across the board from Forum, Twitter, Facebook, to Github, Youtube, and more.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xMJtXI_imNjhWuHqn_dBV1A4SnEn_-n0eVXf4lqoreg



Unity is just getting started too, I imagine the gap will increase even more in the next few years.

 

What is the point of this?

 

We want to keep the thread open so try to make only relevant replies all (mod yourselves so people's main points are kept) thanks.

 

+1 on this post.

This whole thing leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

So Unity is telling us to avoid some good turn key solutions and have 2 options concerning multiplayer games:

1. Host them and manage them yourself. And yes, loose time and money, to not even come close to what spatialos (for example) would provide.

2. Or come and join our Alpha solution and you are good to go.

Well. It shows at least lack of confidence in their own solution.

 

AFAIK the official Unity discord was launched less than a week ago or so. Not sure how many even know about as I did not see a forum or a blog post about it but only a retweet.

 

I'm hoping Unity moves towards an affirmative and standardized licensing model.

Microsoft probably does the best job with what is fairly standard in the tech industry at large. If you are using their software on the server they have regular pricing and then service provider licensing. There isn't really any grey area about where you fit. And for service providers they provide a certain level of price guarantees. While you have to contact them for actual pricing, the pricing model is public for anyone to look at.

And yes I do think they should apply server licensing to every copy of Unity running on a server. Make certain tiers free if they want but get rid of any possible grey area/unknowns.

The only thing that really bugs me about how the licensing got to where it is, is that clause they added in December. I'm sorry but at this level not to fully understand the implications of that is a bit disturbing. The clause itself invites situations like this, and to add it while in the midst of a dispute when it's obviously on point. That last part, I'm sure someone got an earful because that's such a rookie move for a company the size of Unity.

 

Is correct, Unity have more users and more all, but is more beginner users, almost this users never will be complete a game, the engine with more big successful projects and more big studios users is Unreal.