Discussion I still feel like I can't make a game lol [rant]

I have A LOT of education on game development.

Here is "some" of the education I have:



I can create different pieces of a game. I can even put them all together and create a "game"... but nothing I create feels like... a game.

I feel like I have A LOT of gaps in my learning, but not sure where to cover those gaps. All the courses on Unity Learn are segments rather than complete showing you how to accomplish one primary task.

One thing that I have yet to learn and even if you Google it, doesn't appear to exist on the internet at all... anywhere... is how to save user data to a server/database.

I feel like none of the courses found anywhere online are complete.

I am an expert web programmer. I became an expert with essentially 5 courses. FIVE. HTML, CSS, PHP, MYSQL, and JavaScript. Although, I do know more than that. Making a point that with 5 courses, I was able to build a fully functional social networking website (and many other websites)... with just 5 courses.

In comparison, I have taken dozens of game development courses and hundreds of tutorials and still feel like I know... nothing.

I am just ranting... but, if you feel like providing some advice, feel free!

 

You don't become an expert through courses. You become an expert by gaining experience.

Have you never written JavaScript code to communicate with a server?

 

these courses teach you tools to make games, not how to make a game.

 

I understand that, I actually became an "expert" through years of practice, but essentially it was the 5 courses that allowed that to happen. In comparison, I feel like I have more game development education than I do web development, but, I feel like that game development education hasn't gotten me anywhere.

 

I still feel like something is missing in order to make a "complete" game. I learned a little about data persistence, but what if you wanted to play the same game on a different device? Why does NO COURSE on the internet teach this, for example? One of the many gaps I feel I need to cover.

 

Before you learn anything else you need to learn this: the concepts you learn in one field apply to the other. For example here is an article covering WebSocket communication involving Node and React. Everything it teaches applies to Unity too with the only differences being language and API calls.

https://blog.logrocket.com/websocket-tutorial-real-time-node-react/

 

welcome to the stark reality, you can have qualifications and hours of education and still not actually be good - please, please show this to employers who seem to think having a degree in klingon makes you better than 20+ years experience.

However, you have the tools, you arent stupid.. so.
pic a simple thing, be prepared to screw it up a lot, ask some specific questions and make I dunno tic tac toe... or one of those picture shuffle games where its on liker 11 squares and you can only move a square to the empty slot. or, master mind where it picks random stuff and you have to guess it.. screw it up, but you will get there..

 

You certain that you can't find info about save and load?

and how to build for different platforms?

there is a lot to learn. most people start by making small simple games and just publish to steam or web build.

 

Node uses an http connection. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I wouldn't think that

I do know how to publish to steam or webGL. Also, the title of that video could be the problem. If I watched every video I found in a Google search, it would be the year 2718 before I found what I was looking for. The title of that video gives me NO information as to what I'm looking for and therefore, would not be one of the thousands of videos I've chosen to watch.

 

You can communicate between Unity and a server using an http connection. I've known of developers using the following API and a PHP script on a server to communicate data back and forth. My point is still the same. You're looking at game development and thinking it's magically all different when it isn't.

https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Networking.UnityWebRequest.html

 

Well, that could be the first useful piece of information I've heard. I didn't know that PHP could be use to create a database connection with a game. I was thinking the connection had to be created through c# because that's what we use for game development. I wasn't aware any other language could be used as that has never been explained to me.

 

well php does it on a web server, your game then asks the webserver to get the data and give it back to the game..

 

You're right. I thought game development was magically different. lol - so... game development connects through http? So... can I host through a VPS or do I have to self-host through Apache port 80? I really don't want to self-host anything I plan on being a success because I don't have multiple locations to set up failover clustering, which would be a pain in keeping uptime over 99%.

 

I remember long ago, Jason Weimann said a few times in his videos, "they say game dev is the hardest thing in the world"

I kind of scoffed at the idea, harder than brain surgery? Harder than rocket science?

I am neither of those, so I cant say for sure, but I am pretty sure... Yeah, it is the hardest thing in the world.

 

the joy is, you can always move it, so sure find some crappy website you put a db on with some php/asp front end to serve your game, but, you can always move it, and point the game to the new...

 

Rocket Science actually isn't that hard. The "hardest" part about rocket science is Calculus. I took Calculus in 5th grade. Math is definitely not a problem area for me. I also took an Aeronautical Engineering course as an elective in college. That course was easier than game development has been so far. lol

 

The medicine field is a good keyword. There's a reason why you won't get a degree or permission to work in that field without one year of supervised but practical experience.

Game dev just needs that too. It feels like a silly idea to attempt to learn all the many many things needed and only start afterwards. You will have forgotten half of those. Especially when they are taught separately on separate examples.
It's the practical application when you start to see connections and parallels between what you have encountered in the past.

 

Here's some of my creations: https://d14u82.itch.io/ and some more: https://play.unity.com/u/faulknordonald - I feel like I don't have the tools necessary to "finish" any of them and make into an actual, playable (and fun) game.

 

what are these games lacking?

 

finding the "fun" is harder than making a game.. a game is a game but no one said it had to be fun to you.. it just needs to be fun to someone...

 

Well... take this one for example. https://play.unity.com/mg/other/idlepreneur

First, it gets repetitive after awhile. The same with Adventure Capitalist (where I got the idea from). How to make it more fun and less repetitive? Second, I'm not sure how to keep the progress going regardless the user has it open. Note, I do know how to make it run in the background, but, let's say someone closes the game entirely and turns off their phone. How to keep that progress going and the money coming in? I imagine that would have to be done on the server-side.

I also like what I did with the "Almost to Scale Solar System". I researched a lot about the solar system, the degrees at which planets rotate, the direction, and how fast. Distances between planets, the size of each planet, as well as the mass. It was quite the project. But... can something else be done with it besides making it just something to look at?

 

You dont keep it going, you calculated what would have happened since it was last running

 

Ok, so I would use UNIX time from when it stopped and UNIX time from when it started back up. Calculate the time difference, then calculate how much "earned" during that time and add it to their current value?

 

basically - yes

 

That puts things in a new perspective. Imagine the server strain that would cause if all user's data was continuously going 24/7 around the clock. lol

 

Achievements and xp do not matter. They're fluff, like duolingo's lingots and have no practical value. They absolutely do not measure your ability to do anything.

To learn how to make games, you make games.

Boot up unity, start building frogger/asteroids/space invaders clone. You''ll learn a lot.

Because courses online have no goal to teach you that. They're aimed at wide audience (complete newbies) and their goal is to receive money.

Like I said, make an atari game clone. Complete with menu, music, etc. It won't be amazing, but it will be a finished game.
---

If you're into idlers, you need to take a look at Orb of Creation on steam. This is probably the best one in the genre. Also, UI design matters. In your example, stock unity UI is immediately noticeable.

You calculate time difference between the time the game closed and reopened. Then fast-forward it. Because many things happen at specific SPEED meaning X things per Second, you multiply it by seconds passed and t hat's it. Note that the user will be able to cheat by adjusting system clock.

 

can be mitigated at least for the most part when you leave the game you send a goodbye message and it logs you as leaving, so when you log back in, you can both agree the last time you both spoke.

 

Yeah, I've made level editors, saved game systems, and a dynamic content database all using that or an equivalent. It's all just data. There is no magic. It's exactly the same as if you were doing a saved game using File IO, except instead of writing to a file you you send it as POST data, and instead of reading from a file you look at the HTTP response.

Only half of this question is relevant. More fun? Good idea! Less repetitive? You're barking up the wrong tree.

Here's the thing: games are built on repetition. Being "repetitive" is not a bad thing in a game. It's how they work.

Pick your 5 favourite games and look at their core structures. Regardless of what those games are I'm certain that they have a small number of key activities and repeat them, over and over.

Example: The Batman: Arkham games have a loop of find new place -> punch goons -> solve simple puzzle. Not just one game, four of them. Same loop. It's repetitive, and that's good, because for its audience that's fun. Even when they introduce the batmobile in the 4th game, it's still a variation on that exact same loop.

I challenge you to find a successful game that doesn't follow the same model: Identify a small number of engaging activities, dress them up, and then switch between them for as long as they can keep players engaged.

When players complain that something is "repetitive" the issue isn't actually the repetition, it's that the game is boring. It's up to the designers to figure out why that's the case and fix it (or, make a different game). If you want to make engaging games then I suggest that you pick a bunch of games to analyse and figure out why they're engaging despite the fact that they're "repetitive".

A few common reasons:
- Increasing challenge. If you're constantly pushing the player to get better then the activity might be the same but the feeling is different, which can keep some types of players engaged.
- Increasing complexity. If you're constantly giving the player new elements to think about then, again, the activity is the same but the thought processes are different, which keeps other types of players engaged.
- Adding story elements. If it's good then players might want to know what happens next, or it might simply provide motivation.
- Using context from one activity to vary another (e.g lockpicking vs. lockpicking while sneaking).
- Increasing and decreasing tension.

I'll stop there, but there are loads of them. Try to identify some (go for a dozen - seriously) in your favorite games, and then see if you can incorporate some and/or come up with your own for your games.

Because here's another thing - many games are 95% the same as other games. That's ok because the 5% can make things feel fresh. But if your games are literally just re-making someone else's existing game then you're not going to make something fun to anyone who's already played the original. You'll develop technical skills, but not design skills. If you want to develop design skills then re-making existing games is still good practice, but you need to identify a) how you want your experience to be different, and then b) what you'll change about the rules or content of the game to achieve that.

Finally, as others are saying, if you're at the point where you can make whole games, then I wouldn't focus on doing courses any more. Make games. Put them in front of people. Get feedback. Hone your craft by practicing it.

 

I doubt there would be that much of a strain. I've only briefly played one clicker game (link below) and that game had only 19 generators with 663 upgrades spread across them. Most of those upgrades seem to just affect one of two variables (a fixed number multiplier and a percentage multiplier).

Here's a very rough example that is assuming all of these upgrades affect just those two values. Total time to execute 50,000 times (meant to represent the players) in a browser via Try.NET was 72 milliseconds. Spread across a minute (making it 1.2 milliseconds per second) that should be fine.

Spoiler: Code

Code (CSharp):

1. using System;
2. using System.Diagnostics;
3.  
4. public class Program
5. {
6.   public static void Main()
7.   {
8.     var stopwatch = new Stopwatch();
9.  
10.     stopwatch.Start();
11.     for (var player = 0; player < 50000; player++)
12.       DoStuff();
13.     stopwatch.Stop();
14.  
15.     Console.WriteLine($"{stopwatch.ElapsedMilliseconds:n0} milliseconds");
16.   }
17.  
18.   public static void DoStuff()
19.   {
20.     double money = 0;
21.     double someTimeMultiplier = 1;
22.  
23.     int generatorFixedValue = 3;
24.     double generatorPercentageValue = 0.25;
25.  
26.     for (var n = 0; n < 19; n++)
27.     {
28.       money += (generatorFixedValue * someTimeMultiplier);
29.       money += ((generatorFixedValue * generatorPercentageValue) * someTimeMultiplier);
30.     }
31.   }
32. }

https://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/

 

So I think we could say that you do not have an issue with the technical aspects of game development, but rather the creative side?

I mean you wonder about how to technically implement something like calculating a simulation but the real issue is that you don't know if that is really what ought to be done at all. If you really believe it is the right thing to do, it's usually not hard to look up existing solutions piecemeal and then frankenstein together your own solution. I mean, I can do that and I can literally barely do algebra.

Unfortunately I don't think any tutorial can teach you how to be creative. Like I said in first response, tutorials teach you how to use tools. They don't teach you how to be creative. I imagine a lot of programmers who want to be game developers but struggle with the creative side might benefit to branch out and challenge themselves in other creative fronts. Like try to do stand up comedy or something, or act in a play, or maybe just play some sport on a team. Something that forces one to get out of their shell.

The main issue a lot of people have when they say game dev is hard is that they don't really know what they want to make, so the technical issues are compounded by the fact that they are trying to weave together a complicated thing but they don't know what it is beyond some vague notions. There isn't actually any real technical problems but since people lack the courage to deal with themselves they invent technical issues to blame, instead of tackling the real problems.

it may help to try and define your game as a conversation with a stranger, rather than a list of mechanics and technical specifications. Like you build the game so somebody can play it. From the time they open it, play it, and so on, what is happening in their mind each step of the way. So your job is to create an experience and you have to know exactly what you want the experience to be. All the technical problems really aren't an issue once you have a clear vision what the game is going to be. You can tackle each issue with confidence so long as you know where the ship is sailing.

 

Actually, there are creativity classes and such, which may be well worth taking for people who struggle with this. Creativity isn't magic, it's a skill which can be learned. Different people will have different flavors of creativity, of course.

 

Thanks for all that. I guess you have a point. When I learned web development, I wasn't immediately great after taking the courses. It was my years of practice and actually building websites that got me good. I guess it's time to build some games... Atari style!

 

I think part of game-dev is just working out things for yourself, alongside steadily accruing information from as many sources as possible, which includes these forums. Or just knowing someone who knows the information you need. Most game dev teams are a bunch of people with different specialties.

Honestly I've learnt the most either by just jumping into things head-first, or reading the posts by more seasoned users here. Then there's documentation, articles, blog posts and books to supplement that. I haven't actually watched a youtube tutorial on a long while though... The Unity docs are often enough.

 

Designing a game and developing games are different things. All those courses are technical, they cover programming and the use of tools, not what makes a game fun. You should look into game design educational material for that.

 

Do you have a goal for what game you want to make? Can you give an example from an existing similar game?

 

Programming - like painting, writing or kick-boxing - is just a skill. While watching tutorials can be helpful, the true path to mastering any of these is through actual practice, and to be consistent with it. There are no shortcuts.

 

The kind of game I'd really like to make is something like Raid: Shadow Legends, Idle Heroes, or something along that line where you can collect and build up numerous heroes and battle. I actually got a pretty good start. I purchased this: https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/2d/gui/gui-pro-kit-casual-game-176695, which is only UI, but it helps to get the ideas flowing. I also learned about PlayFab and already figured out how to create a login register system. I think the hardest part for me will be creating the models or anything graphical, since I am not a very good artist, but, I have been learning a little bit about using Blender.

 

I agree. As noted above, I'm a pretty good web developer. I mostly use PHP and MySQL for backend, but also know some node and react as well. When I began in that, I essentially just took 5 courses (complete courses) to learn PHP, MySQL, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. But, the courses didn't make me good. They gave me the knowledge I needed to practice and develop the skills that made me good. I guess I should apply the same principles with game development and just practice.

 

Well thats a good start you know and can make some good php pages to store data in mysql then

 

Are you a gamer? Did you play many games in your current, or past?
Reason for question as such is, that if you have played, you will understand what makes up for a game.

Following is not a critics, but reasoning, why you may struggle with game making process. You are not alone with it.

What you are doing now, is not making game but you are software engineer and simply put, an software integrator.
You put pieces together without thinking why you doing it, besides getting into fun part of the process.
Software engineers are not games developers. And vice versa. These skills vary by miles, even seems they are very similar.

You may enjoy process of creating systems. Even complex one. It can be very fun process. But you don't feel for making functionality of these. With high tendency of overengineering, due to lack of game making expertise, and trying put engineering expertise instead. And it is exhaustive. Specially when you may think, you need to do boring parts as a next step.

You may feel, when you put few systems together, that you are done and what next. Like feeling lost, because you have not made prior goal. Just self accomplishment. You have no game design ahead. No timeline. No deadline. Feature creeping. And you vision about project gets blurred. As the result, you stop on continuing making game. And more likely back to write another cool system. Again, many of us did that at some point, if you read various forums.

The best approach to deal with an issue, is to scope small. Like really small.
Ignore the fact, you got skill in web dev. It is mostly irrelevant. Your game dev skills are lacking.
And if you scope too high, you will reach wall, and exhaustion to make thing an actual game.
If you succeed, to get to the finished product, you will see what it takes and will appreciate yourself.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. I'm just trying to figure out how to use PHP to handle this. Here's the difference... in php, I would use the name="name_here" to $_POST['name_here']; data.... right? Now... in unity, I don't see where an input box has a attribute like that? Although I can write PHP, I'm still a little confused how to use it with unity, but after I do a little research, I hope I'll find the answer.

 

Have a look in the unity manual, or on youtube, you still use POST you still send variables, and all is good. so you can call your unity variables anything and send them using the names required by php when configuring the web post. PHP does its thing and you read back what you get..

 

Generally, but people don't always have their "critical mind" on when playing. You realize the experience is enjoyable, but don't really think about why that is or how the experience is constructed.

Also, mainstream games are full of little minutia that's almost impossible to detect. Things like input buffering in fighting games or coyote time in a platformer. Most people will play a game and won't realize these are even happening. Then when you sit down and naively implement your own "press A to Jump, press X to attack" character controls, you just don't understand why your game feels janky and the same exact controls feel good in the professional game.

 

Games are quite complex, although I'm surprised you weren't able to load / save data to a database? You can just use normal C# for that.

 

Well, some courses doesn't make an expert, nor teach about searching methods, to find required answers.
Skills gaps are present.
Search skills are usually learned at universities, if not from own long term commitment and experience.

 

Well, I'm starting to figure it out. But, you make it sound like it's common sense. Which database do you connect to? What's the c# code you need to establish a connection? How do you insert data? How do you retrieve data? I mean, knowing how to do it on websites (like I can do) does NOT mean you know how to do it with game engines. First, it's completely different. I've recently discovered two ways of doing it. One with PHP, but I have to run my own Apache servers and I don't have good enough computers or trust my household electricity, to run anything on my own Apache server. The other way I've figured out how is through PlayFab, which actually seems easier than the PHP way, which is strange, since I know PHP very well.

 

It is my opinion that turning " a game-like thing that I can play in the editor" into "a fully packaged game that others can install and play" is one of the hardest things in Unity or at least one of the least well documented. I'm a hobbyist so I don't care that much but that's pretty much where all my projects end. It's like the old saying, you did 90% of the work, now it's time to do the other 90%.

 

well, often, unless you have a dedicated server you run, a client asks a website for data, at which point your php page answers, goes gets it from your database of choice, and hads the data back, keeping your database connections private and reducing what people can do because its all done through an api you create

 

Its probably less of an issue of being a game engine and more of an issue of not knowing C# seeing as Microsoft has a large web footprint with .NET and azure.

To be more specific though, probably one of the easiest databases to get started with is Firebase as it has a pretty good Unity Plugin.