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Workflow Case Study - Show us your pain!

Discussion in 'Editor & General Support' started by willgoldstone, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    Trivial to implement, yet this would be very handy:
    • Create Empty: It would be nice to have the transfrom reset to origin when you create a new gameobject, e. g. with shift key while clicking the popup menu item. Or create a dedicated "Create Empty (Origin)" menu item.

    • Folders: In Project view GameObjects are used as folders. Would be nice to have a dedicated object for that.

    • Transform Scale: locking x/y/z via lock or link button and when you enter eg x, it's applied to y and z automatically
     
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  2. KokkuHub

    KokkuHub

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    The mesh LOD workflow in Unity compared to nearly every other engine I have used in the past 20 years is... subpar, to say the least.

    The fact LODs are configured per instance instead of per asset can create major pains if you don't build your scenes entirely out of prefabs and want to add LODs after the fact, not to mention it requires the addition of one extra GameObject for each LOD, complete with its own transform.

    LODs are an essential part of making 3D games, it should be a first class citizen, not a "hack" made by manually hooking up together a bunch of components.
     
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  3. willgoldstone

    willgoldstone

    Unity Technologies

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    We're working on this too.
     
  4. willgoldstone

    willgoldstone

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    All of those already in the backlog :)
     
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  5. Baste

    Baste

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    I seem to remember that a preview of selection history was shown off a while back. What happened? Did the design seem not good enough, or were there technical problems?
     
  6. willgoldstone

    willgoldstone

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    As with everything, its mostly a backlog / priorities thing. It's in the list to do, and we're happy with the design as far as we've gotten with it, i'll come back to the forum for feedback when we're looking to implement, but other things are higher up the list, like Hierarchy folders for example. It's not far off though, so apologies for the wait.
     
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  7. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Alphabetize all menus, please.

    By that I mean, the create menu, the window menu, etc...

    There is absolutely no sense of organization there, and I don't see any reason why "mesh" has to be the first in the list of "components", or "shader, testing and playables" must be at the top of "create new items". (folder or C# script, maybe, but its not a big deal if you just alphabetize those two as well)

    Maybe there is some grand logical explanation for the lack of alphabetization, and some software-engineers' logic behind the structure of these option lists... ....but none of us know it, so it only makes sense to you guys, to the rest of us its a hunt and pick every time until we memorize about where it is. (and don't forget these menus change often with updates, and things get re-scrambled).

    Also, lets say somebody is looking for something in the wrong menu. They look through the big long software-engineer-logic-organization structured list, scan it for 20 seconds until they realize it is not there. What do they do next? They open the next big menu list, and spend 20 - 30 seconds scanning that list, looking for it... ...guess how much time it would take if all lists were alphabetized?

    And yes, I understand I could push a key to get me to the first letter of the item I am looking for. I am probably one of the 10% of the users who figured that out after WTF WHERETF-IS-IT!?-ing a million times. And still, that is not intuitive. Nobody really uses that. Furthermore, there is no reason that could not be used in conjunction with an alphabetized list.

    But everybody understands alphabetization. EVERYBODY.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
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  8. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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    alphabetization is not always putting the most important items on top, it may work for folders and for listings, but for a menu its not always the best.
     
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  9. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    most important to who? That's the thing, there is no such thing as "most important" and furthermore, it's all a bunch of guesswork as to what is most important. I bet there is much discussio0on about what should go where in the list, and in the end, it is all a bunch of nonsense that makes no sense. Trying to order by "most important" or "in groups" is ridiculous. materials, right next to lens flare, of course, everybody should know that! Materials might only be number 16 in the list of importance in a software engineers estimation, but... to the artist, it should be number 1. Now what?

    Trying to organize by "most important" or bunch up in groups of "related" is like trying to organize a library by book size or leather color like some did before the dewey decimal system. It is overthinking.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
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  10. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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    let me share how I got to this thought.

    for example in this video there is a properties item at the bottom if the popup



    If sorted by most used you would expect it near the top, now its at the bottom.
    If it was alphabetical it would be somewhere near the bottom.

    But that said, Im all for customization. And if there was an extra preference option for sort menu alphabetical I would be all for it.
     
  11. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Again, you are assuming, based on what *you* do, what the "most used" would be. Not only does it require a ton of guesswork, it often isn't even right.

    "should I put copy first, or paste first, or properties first?" It's ridiculous navel gazing, and doesn't really solve any problems unless it is to reduce tedium of repetitive tasks. Which I get, HOWEVER, this is game design, and a lot of the time spent trying to get things done is simply finding where the one hundred things you only use once a week are.

    And I know NOBODY ELSE alphabetizes their menus either, like Windows or Visual Studio, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE RIGHT NOT TO. I hate to be the lone cry in the wilderness, but lets not forget, dozens of professional software designers paid millions of dollars thought it was a good idea to remove the Start button from Windows 8.
     
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  12. Deozaan

    Deozaan

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    It also doesn't mean they are not right not to. Generally when everybody does something a certain way, there's a pretty good reason for it. If you're the only person going against the direction of traffic, odds are you are the one going the wrong way.

    You seem to have a very strong opinion about this, which you are entitled to, but you are just as guilty of making assumptions based on what you do or would prefer to do.
     
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  13. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    I have to ask: Are you using Unity yourself or are you only developing it? Because it is simply a pain and a huge waste of time to always have to reset the transform for every single Empty gameobject. Or to set the scale for y and z as well when most gameobjects have usually uniform scale and all you'd have to set is 1 coordinate. It should be an absolutely trivial thing to change in the UI. Why this is in some kind of backlog and not happening and every single one of us has to do this annoying task all the time is not quite reasonable :) Small change, huge effect situation. But because it's only a small change it doesn't seem to happen.

    I wouldn't even mind a hotkey like enter x value and with shift+enter it's transferred to all the other axes. Or having shift pressed and the transform is reset when a new gameobject is created. Currently there isn't even a workaround.

    Or fixing the explorer opening in the wrong folder can only be a few lines of code. Yet it happens for every single one of us and we all have to manually navigate 1 level deeper.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  14. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Let's hear your "pretty good reason" as to why "Lightmap Parameters" needs to be exactly at location 17, "custom render texture" at 18, and "visual effects" at 19.

    XD XD

    And the reason I have a strong opinion about it is because A: I am right, and it woukd improve 95% of unity users workflow significantly B: I gave some good arguments as to why I am right, but C: knew nobody would address those because they instead would use the "No, I like everything in one big jumbled, incoherent, disordered mess, because C# script is at the top!" argument. No real reason, they would just reflexively dissent to dissent, because welcome to the internet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  15. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    The Copy Path function should copy the full path. There's no use for having a path like Assets/Blender/Loop.blend, at least I can't see any. What I'd like to do is use that path in order to export to the Unity folder from Blender, Substance Painter, etc.

    copy path.png
     
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  16. Baste

    Baste

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    That path is what's used when interacting with the AssetDatabase API, so any in-editor tools you might write would benefit from having the path on that form
     
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  17. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    Thanks for the clarification. Then it should be called differently like "Asset Path" or sth like that. I still would prefer to have also option for the absolute path, it would come in very handy when dealing with exports from 3rd party applications.
     
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  18. Deozaan

    Deozaan

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    I'm not commenting one way or another on whether or not the full path or the asset database path should be copied using that context menu item, but in an effort to be helpful now without having to wait for Unity to possibly make things work the way you want them to, a workaround for now could be to select "Show in Explorer" and then copy the path from the address bar in Explorer.
     
  19. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    That's how I do it currently, but that's the other pain I mentioned. That option opens the parent folder, not the selected one, so you always have to go 1 level deeper manually.
     
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  20. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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  21. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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  22. KokkuHub

    KokkuHub

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    I'm not sure posting asset store links as examples helps. I think Unity staff isn't allowed to install them, as I imagine there would be legal issues if they used 3rd party assets as references for internal features.
     
  23. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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    They are meant as solutions for people who want to work today, and don't have time to wait for these features to make it to the top of the Unity features backlog. ( if they even get on there )

    I would not be worried about the asset store holding unity back to implement new features if similar already exist on the asset store.

    As an example, For nested prefabs there were already solutions on the asset store and it did not stop unity to implement their own solution.
     
  24. awesomedata

    awesomedata

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    CLOTH...?

    https://answers.unity.com/questions/1149101/why-does-adding-cloth-component-to-skinned-meshren.html
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-cloth-continues-to-disappoint-in-2017-3-sigh.509995/
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/cloth-constraints-not-working-cant-paint-or-select.717104/
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/cloth-questions-possible-bugs.716663/
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/cloth-system.663445/#post-5484978


    See above.


    I seriously gotta ask -- are you guys really EVER going do anything to make cloth (and its UI) fully functional again?


    Does anyone at Unity realize cloth has been mostly-broken since 2016? -- It seems to me most have given up on cloth or stuck with older versions of Unity where the component at least sort of "worked" -- In my case, I was just speechless when I opened multiple versions of 2018 (and now multiple versions of 2019.3) and still, even after all these years, come back to find a broken mess of a component every single time.

    And now I'm getting "yeh -- were wurkin hard to bring u a nice cloth exprence" when it clearly hasn't ever been all that important before. Even knowing how broken cloth is, it's clear that nothing has been done about it. Cloth isn't functional. Cloth isn't a priority. If it was, it wouldn't take an angry post to get anyone moving to fix it. Yet I come to find out nothing has even been in the works to replace the broken-mess that is cloth. Cloth has always been the perfect candidate for a practical and useful test-case scenario for DOTS, and now, although I've suspected it before, I find out for certain that cloth has just been altogether abandoned until now because it has been difficult to stabilize. If cloth is so hard to stabilize -- then why not just rewrite the damn system from scratch with DOTS? -- Being unable to see things like this is what drives me nuts about Unity -- Even the clearest dream or vision requires some perception of the world around you. Dreaming is risky business. Hurtling at breakneck speeds toward all the beautiful possibilities beyond the sky will only lead you to your doom when you suddenly make it there only to find a cold, dark, void before you waiting to suffocate you while it instantly freezes you and makes your head asplode. And guess what? -- You aren't wearing a spacesuit.

    That said, this thing about no DOTS cloth solution even being on the roadmap really sucks.
    I can't wait years again just to see if Unity finally fixes a long-broken cloth component just because one guy promised.
    I've purposely avoided cloth until now just to give Unity time to finally take care of it, but I didn't realize it had effectively been abandoned all that time. I'm really not sure why others have remained silent about this for so long, but it could have something to do with the silence returned to them by Unity when asking about this feature in the past, or the endless waiting to see if the next version finally fixes cloth. As for me, I'm done waiting. A bug or two is "fixed" every few releases, which leads to more bugs, while the overall problem of cloth's hacked-together implementation is never "fixed". The cloth UI alone has been broken in various places and situations for years. i.e. The surface penetration feature doesn't work AT ALL. Try editing cloth in prefab mode. No constraints visible for you to paint? What if you tried painting with gizmos disabled? No UI at all? Try editing constraints on cloth on a rigged model. Broken UI? No UI? Broken bounds for your mesh? Try painting constraints after entering play mode. Broken constraints? Broken mesh bounds? Broken UI? No UI at all? Yep -- All part of the workflow for cloth. There are more bugs with the UI than the feature is worth to most people -- and that seriously sucks.

    There's no way somebody thoroughly testing this component could not see how broken it is!

    I get that DOTS and Raytracing are very cool and that you guys are trying to establish new markets for Unity as a new visualization tool all while revamping the engine as a whole -- but even with that, a basic cloth solution is industry-standard 3d visualization -- and this is just as true in film and pre-vis pipelines as it is for games. Users shouldn't have to purchase a 3rd party solution like ObiCloth when Unreal has had (better-looking) cloth support for years!

    It wouldn't be so bad if cloth was known to be broken and you guys already had something in the works for better (i.e. DOTS-based) cloth simulation to replace it altogether, because, as I and many others have been hoping and waiting and praying for, this was such a no-brainer that somebody at Unity HAD to have seen or heard about how broken the current system is -- but apparently there is nothing in the works (or even on the roadmap!) right now for DOTS cloth -- and this straight-up neglect for a vital part of the visualization process is what infuriates me the most. Nvidia has been natively supporting cloth for years. As a so-called graphical powerhouse these days -- Why can't Unity?

    Sorry, the pain I'm feeling today comes from more than just my workflow...

    upload_2020-2-17_12-5-5.png
     
  25. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Agree with everything but unfortunately it seems nothing is ever going to be done about it because the issue constantly gets skirted around.

    Best you can do is write your own cloth shader and feed in values via a C# script to get it moving. Again, not great, definately not usable for any beginners or newcomers, but the best we have.
     
  26. bertrand_arnaud

    bertrand_arnaud

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    Hello everyone,

    There is a constraint I'm often encountering using dropdowns : I want to fill them with objects in order to select a specific object with a specific ID. However, the dropdown returns you as value the index position in the dropdown of the selected element. But you have no direct way to get a specific value set by the user, such as what you can do in HTML with a select markdown. So you need to maintain a list of the objects in the same order as in the dropdown.

    By the democratization of Unity among the industry, you often use datas stored in DB with unique customs IDs. It would simplify the usage of dropdowns if we could set a specific value to be returned for each element of the dropdown !
     
  27. oxysofts

    oxysofts

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    Gizmos (and other debug visualization features)
    They look like they were added to Unity 12 years ago and never touched or enhanced ever again after.
    • DrawWireSphere
      is aliased and hard to see. Making the lines a bit thicker would help tremendously.
    • DrawSphere
      is a joke. The mesh is clearly very low poly and cannot render with more definition according to size. After a certain size, it is so imprecise that it becomes utterly useless. Why not draw it with volumetric rendering? That way it can look smooth and accurate no matter the size.
    • DrawLine
      Same problem as DrawWireSphere.
    • More gizmos and functionality. We should be able to draw various shapes such as arrows, and ensure they look sexy. I made a makeshift DrawArrow function with 3 DrawLine calls but honestly it looked like garbage and was very very hard to see due to lack of anti-aliasing and lines that are only 1 pixel thick!!
    • Consolidate gizmos and handles into a single consistent package. It would be great if we could write scene view editing logic for our components with a simple API like 'Dear ImGui', but right alongside our gizmos instead of having to create a bunch of separate editor code for it. For example, buttons and handles you can slide with a label that appears above when you hover it, simple stuff like that.
    • Performances are TERRIBLE. I go from 60FPS in scene view to 30FPS when I turn on gizmos in a large scene, even if turn off all scripts in the dropdown. (enabled gizmos but all scripts disabled) It is clearly not drawing gizmos which is introducing lag, but rather the system iterating every single objects to check if gizmos should be drawn.
    • Bad UI to select which gizmos you want. In a large project, it's unusable because there are so many gizmos for individual classes. I think Unity is supposed to have a new "custom tool" API supposed to replaced this, but afaik they haven't used it for any of their official editor plugins like Cinemachine and ProBuilder, so it might as well not exist right now. Currently, I have to pick between gizmo hell or no gizmos, because finding just a few ones I want would be way too hard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
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  28. CDF

    CDF

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    Yes, Gizmos can be immensely helpful in custom tools and debugging. I would also love for more Gizmo types, better looking Gizmos and Gizmos that perform well in scene with 100s of objects. Does Unity cull gizmos off screen? Can we control the far clip plane for drawing gizmos? Generally I'm only interested in Gizmos close to my camera. Having a bunch of red lines all squashed in the distance isn't helpful and could be culled away, bringing back some of that precious scene view perf.
     
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  29. Baste

    Baste

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    Holy hell yeah gizmos are awful.

    They're super-useful, but as people have pointed out, they're really really slow, and lack a bunch of functionality.

    The most obvious issue is text. You have to use Handles, which means that now your OnDrawGizmos has to be #if UNITY_EDITOR. Handles text is also ugly, and you have to use the godawful GUIStyle API to edit it. It also rotates towards the screen in a pretty confusing way.

    The slowness is also hillariously bad. Draw a thousand spheres with Gizmos, and the editor just clogs. If you place 1000 sphere gameobjects at the exact same positions, and the editor's fine. You'd think it'd be possible to use some of the same rendering paths for the gizmos!

    It'd be graet if the whole Gizmos API and workflow were rethunk. Ideally, it should be fast, with a rich API, and that API should be available both editor and runtime.



    Not related;
    There's a big issue where clicks in the hirarchy or scene doesn't register if Unity's under a heavy load.

    This happened just now - by accident, I box-selected a ton of stuff in the scene. Between the inspector for the first selected thing, and all of the OnDrawGizmosSelected calls of all the selected things, Unity slowed to a crawl.

    That would be fine if I could just deselect things, but Unity was chugging so hard that I was unable to click things in the hierarchy or run my "clear selection" hotkey. I had to task manager close Unity and open it again to get back to work.

    This is a part of the larger "Everything we interact with in Unity is on the same main thread and that causes everything to suck" problem (aka. "I can't exit play mode when the game's in an infinite loop"), but I'm pretty sure Unity were getting frames, it just didn't manage to do anything useful with them.
     
  30. Deozaan

    Deozaan

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    I noticed today when I had a 9x9 grid of buttons and clicked "Visualize" to see their automatic navigation that Unity started chugging. Do UI navigation visualizations use the Gizmos as well? Either way, that could use some performance improvement.
     
  31. codegasm

    codegasm

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    Two things that cause lots of pain when working with animations. I am on 2018.4 but I have had these problems for years.

    Why can't I increase the height of the "Add Property" selector? I have all this space available and yet here I am scrolling for some reason.


    Why do new properties get added with their end frame one frame after the end of all other properties? It's so frustrating to have to move that last key frame back one frame every time I add a new property.
     
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  32. awesomedata

    awesomedata

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    This is the kind of thing I'm hoping/praying are being considered in UI Elements -- great example btw.
     
  33. EiknarF

    EiknarF

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    Embedded materials in FBX files!! They don't work and require extra steps.
    They have some potential but seem to be untouched since implementation and are now out of date. Is it even possible to export from any 3d package with a correct embedded material?

    Whats going on?
     
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  34. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    FBX is a pain on its own. I'd appreciate if glTF would be supported out of the box, not just via 3rd party.
     
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  35. awesomedata

    awesomedata

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  36. EngineArtist

    EngineArtist

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    This has _probably_ been mentioned already, but in case it hasn't: the default inspector for lists is kinda clunky. Not having a way to reorder elements is the biggest pain for me. The way that built-in ReorderableList-thingy is rendered is pretty perfect, so why not render ordinary arrays and lists the same way by default?

    Another pain I had was with assigning GameObject-fields in the editor, but I finally managed to find a way to build a neat little fix for that. I'd like to link that here, since it fits the topic: https://forum.unity.com/threads/use-object-picker-to-pick-an-object-from-scene-view.534264/

    But all in all, I think Unity has come a long way, and even though there are pain-points, there is some really awesome stuff too. For _any_ tool, helping to bridge the distance from vision to playable game is no easy task. I'm really excited and inspired how Unity is becoming a better tool every year :)

    Kind regards,
    Miika Vihersaari
     
  37. koirat

    koirat

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    I got better idea. Just make gizmos/handles run-time and not editor only.
    Than Gizmos.Enable = true/false
     
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  38. przemeknowaczyk

    przemeknowaczyk

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    In my personal and business projects I like to keep scripts small, modular and in harmony with OOP standards. However most of my classes inherit from MonoBehaviour since i like the flexibility provided by Inspectors. When there are lots and lots of small components attached to gameobject, looking for a specific component becomes nightmare. Searchbar that could let me filter components by name would be very helpful. I have even managed to create something similiar, but my script misbehaves in many cases and lacks overall reliablity - however it's good enough to visualise mu idea:



    EDIT: Sorry, I have no idea why embeded video is so blurry, when displayed on streamable pagie it looks perfect.
     
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  39. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    It annoys me that text elements are always bigger than the actual text, and can end up blocking out parts of other buttons if the buttons are close together. I don't think anybody wants text to have UI colliders unless turned on, and I would bet 95% percent of users would just rather text colliders be turned off by default.
     
  40. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Vertical guidelines a la visual studio in the hierarchy and project views would be nice, so we could know exactly how deep in a folder tree we are.
     
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  41. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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    Please get rid of .meta files. Put the data into 1 big file, package the .meta into an archive, load it into memory, but please don't double the amount of files and folders on the system.
     
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  42. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Start() and Update() and comments in every new script. Never helped a single noob figure out scripting, millions of lost manhours deleting them. Completely unnecessary.
     
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  43. Rowlan

    Rowlan

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  44. Ne0mega

    Ne0mega

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    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  45. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    I finally switched to the dark theme and know I think it is even more obvious that the new redesign lacks of contrast, especially the background color for buttons, it is hard to see what is active and what a hover. Also the blue color used for the font by prefabs is hard to see on the dark background, especially the deactivated variant.
     
  46. oxysofts

    oxysofts

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    It's missing details like these that really highlight to me how they put exactly zero care into the user-interface throughout these last years. Let's hope they actually start giving a F*** for the very first time in 2020, since we were promised a new revamped editor in 2020's release cycle roadmap.
     
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  47. oxysofts

    oxysofts

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    83
    Cannot quickly move a selected object to a specific point in the scene view

    Last Ludum Dare, I spend probably way too much time dragging my player object all over the place. I am currently looking at a place in the map and I wish to start the game from here so I can quickly test whatever it is I need to test. This requires moving my player object to this spot in the map. Here's how we do this in Unity

    1. Use the scroll-wheel a lot to zoom out enough that the player is now visible. (God have mercy if the map is really big)
    2. Hold shift and drag the object to the point.
    3. Zoom in and make adjustments, because you probably didn't get it right since you were so zoomed out.
    What we REALLY need to solve this is a custom context-menu in the scene view, which would allow point-and-click actions like this Move selected objects here. This menu would be extendible through code and searchable so we can quickly just type + enter to quickly invoke the action we need. Please consider this as part of the 2020 editor workflow revamp.
     
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  48. mgear

    mgear

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Posts:
    6,187
    Ctrl+Shift+Drag is nice for placing objects,
    but needs colliders, maybe could have that working without colliders? (like 3ds max AutoGrid?)
     
  49. awesomedata

    awesomedata

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Posts:
    1,121
    Sounds like we need a default multipurpose "brush" tool in the Editor (something like the Zbrush/Blender sculpting circles) that visibly adapts to the normal of the mesh/terrain/gameobject so that we can just place stuff like that. If no gameobject is underneath our cursor, we default to the rectangle-select functionality like we already have.

    This "brush cursor" should really be scripted to do exactly what you suggest though (or bring up the default spotlight-esque search feature).
    Basically, you'd just hover the brush over an object/terrain and immediately go into "universal transform tool" mode if you (left) click on the gameobject. If you RIGHT-click on the gameobject (while the brush-cursor is visible), you get the context-menu popup to let you "move selected object here" (and other custom actions!). The selected object appears on the exact normal and position you click. If you hold a shortcut key (i.e. CTRL) while hovering a normal of a mesh (or terrain), it instead snaps the object to the center of that face. Etc. etc. I'm sure others could think of good ways to use (and piggy-back off of) this new functionality, but the Universal Transform Tool seriously still needs some love.

    Just turn it into a brush cursor (and the default tool!) -- then we'll be cooking with fire!


    Any chance of something exactly like this happening, @willgoldstone? D:
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  50. Kamyker

    Kamyker

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Posts:
    385
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