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Windows 10 solitaire has ads. Implications for future gaming.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tomnnn, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Oh, so you didn't buy any apps from AppStore or tracks from iTunes? Interesting.
     
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  2. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    Ah yes, there is that. I suppose the reason for that is people who buy Apple don't mind paying a little extra, upgrading that hardware more often, as long as they don't have to dive into how their computer works in order to use it. In an ironic twist, that actually means abandoning their products after a while to make the core customer base happy. Weird.
     
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  3. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I was under the impression that it cost money to upgrade OS X. Am I wrong in this? Or are you simply getting upgrades when you replace hardware?
     
  4. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    Upgrades have been free for years
     
  5. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    My mom's 2010 macbook couldn't update anything anymore so she was forced to get a new one this last thursday. But that's ok because it also had serious hardware damage and was very unresponsive. My 2012 macbook is still going strong though.

    Freeware all the way baby! Need apps? I'm all about that GNU GPL :) As for music, I listen to approaching nirvana, tiasu, rob gasser, etc. Their music is freely available online and if you want to purchase an album you can do so without iTunes... for some of them, at least. But google music / spotify / even youtube you can find entire albums uploaded by the artists themselves.

    Sometime around snow leopard / mountain lion, future updates became free. I upgraded to Mavericks and somehow my 2012 machine was able to upgrade to yosemite as well.

    Apple's niche is having fewer options. That's their selling point. Although they're kind of only staying true to that on iOS since their computers have a bunch of configurable options (for extreme $$$ that can't be changed later, of course).
     
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  6. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Nice to know. That's what I get for not keeping up to date. :p
     
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  7. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    I have snow leopard in the other room and I can't install anything on that machine. But it never gives me the option to upgrade.
     
  8. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I think the upgrade from snow leopard was the last one you had to pay for. You buy the next one for $25, and everything after that comes free.
     
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  9. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    One does not [simply] own an apple computer more than 3 years out of date. In december of 2015 this mac will be sacrificed to Jobs.
     
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  10. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Sacrifice it in my name! I'm certain I've got shipping labels around here somewhere. :D
     
  11. tiggus

    tiggus

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    I think it's inevitable we'll get ads in PC games eventually and it makes me sad. Not sure what the heck that has to do with Mac vs Linux vs Windows though. Since we're talking about it however, I've used all three for my main desktop and my preference is Windows with VMWare running a Linux guest so I get the best of both worlds.
     
  12. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    We've had in-game advertising in PC games for some time. It just isn't that obvious apparently.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-game_advertising
     
  13. tiggus

    tiggus

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  14. tiggus

    tiggus

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    I guess I should clarify why I think that. When I look at what has become of the "new" generation of mobile games it is clear that a lot of younger folks are ok with ads in their games if it means they get them for free.

    When you can get a AAA PC game with some ads and IAP vs $60 I can see a lot of younger folks being OK with that. Gradually it will become accepted like it is with mobile, and people like me will be sad.
     
  15. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    The part that annoys me is we'll have them and still be paying $60 for games...
     
  16. tiggus

    tiggus

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    Probably with IAP but yeah, most likely $60 or greater in the end!
     
  17. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    The 2012 macbook pro with Retina screen is decent. It's got an nvididia 650(m) which is fairly capable. Modern macs seem to not have graphics cards anymore. I looked around for my mom but could only find "intel iris pro". I've been meaning to ask how that compares to a 750, the last discreet cards macs had before the switch.

    Well it's 1 thing to derail a thread, but I actually started this one so it's the nature of things.
     
  18. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It certainly beats my current laptop - a Panasonic Toughbook from 2006. :p
     
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  19. calmcarrots

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    I'm sorry but you can have opinions and I can't. There are always people like you who believe that apple is overrated or to expensive but little people do realize you are paying for quality that will last much longer than any windows machine. My parents have kept their macbook for more than 5 years and I've never had a Windows machine for more than 2. (My parents aren't tech savvy and they manage to keep that computer running faster).
     
  20. Moonjump

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    The higher of the two 15" retina MacBook Pros has a separate graphics card. The iMac has them on all but the 2 lowest 21" models. And the Mac Pro has 2 graphics cards as standard.
     
  21. Dustin-Horne

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    But you pay a premium for that hardware. Not knocking Apple, but people who are Apple fans will pay twice as much for less capable hardware with the exception of high density screens and notebook battery life which are really only the two places Apple excels in the hardware realm.

    Just because you haven't paid a dime doesn't mean most users haven't either. Most users rely on Apple's app store and Apple has the most closed ecosystem and nickle and dime strategy rules of any of the app stores. Google has the most open. An example was Apples ban on apps that sell digital content (books / music) unless that content is also available in the iTunes store and at the same or lower price.

    Microsoft has been offering more and more free services over the years though the majority of these really have been targeted at developers and IT pros so they aren't consumed as much by the general public.
     
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  22. greggtwep16

    greggtwep16

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    That's always been Apple's way of doing things, first the large pin connector, then lightning, now it looks like there switching to usb type c. Microsoft is the opposite with probably too much legacy support, hell Windows 10 32-bit can still run 16-bit apps! How long did they keep around the "classic" mode to the control panel (I think it's finally gone?).

    They just have completely different business models, one makes a lot of money from the markup on their hardware, the other makes money on their software and services. To be completely honest on a machine basis 5 years ago if I added up a cheaper machine + OS + Office it probably came out to about the same as an equivalent machine from apple which came with OSX.

    It'll be interesting to see how the companies change with Windows going free and offering their software/services truly cross platform (including osx and ios). To be honest, the numbers aren't easy to calculate but I wouldn't be shocked if google makes the most money off of me, from youtube, gmail, google search, android, etc.
     
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  23. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    That's unfortunate because she was already at $2,000. I think mine was $3,000 in 2012. I have a job now but damn that still feels like a lot of money. In like a year I'll probably build a desktop and finally have a decent price/power ratio.
     
  24. tiggus

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    The charger thing just cracks me up, reminds me of one of my favorite xkcd:

     
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  25. Master-Frog

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    Just to chime in on the whole hardware debate... look at warranty company statistics for the major brands. Apple isn't the best.
     
  26. Tomnnn

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    It's a valid point. Less so for mobile because of micro usb, but some devices still use mini and apple of course has their own.
     
  27. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Never. The dreck that has been produced since 1990 bears no musical nor theatrical interest to me. I am a producer, not a consumer of culture. All the apps from the App Sore have been freebies and of course I purchased my own workhorse apps like C4D, ZBrush, PS, AE. I did buy LogicPro from them but I don't think that counts as it was purchased on a CD and has nothing to do with the OS except that is what it runs on..same as PS for example..
     
  28. ippdev

    ippdev

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    This has been debunked so many times, It comes out that equivalent quality and performance ends up costing more to build. Compare against AlienWare and Macs come in about 10-20% IIRC cheaper IIRC last time I saw the debate unfold and folks posting parts and stats of those parts.
     
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  29. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Is the new mac pro a capable gaming machine? It's got 2 (of the same) graphics cards that I've never heard of before.
     
  30. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Benchmarks say the new iMac rocks the house and can run big graphics games at high frame rates at 4K rez..Better than the MacPro.
     
  31. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    The new one that looks like a little trash can?

    "Fire Pro"... AMD finally embracing the fact that their cards run the hottest :p But I guess I don't have to worry about her computer then because she runs photoshop and illustrator.
     
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  32. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Only if you strictly compare OEM to OEM. If you're capable of building your own system though you can easily build a real monster of a computer with the same degree of quality as an Apple computer. Although there are some exceptions to this such as the Panasonic Toughbook line. My oldest Toughbook is almost a decade old and is still very useful to me.
     
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  33. calmcarrots

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    Oh yea definitely. And building your own can be especially cheaper than any computer with the same specs.
     
  34. angrypenguin

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    Or that paid OS X upgrade a few years ago, which eventually became a requirement for Xcode updates.
     
  35. greggtwep16

    greggtwep16

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    When it comes to longevity, I think on any platform with the death of Moore's Law (or at least it has tapered off a lot), this is less of an issue. You can even see this in consoles which always try to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of them that each generation is getting longer. N64 generation was 5 years, ps2 generation was 6 years, 360/ps3 generation was 7 years, etc. Longevity is becoming less of an issue with each passing year regardless of what platform you like.

    I think Apple always did a better job squeezing out performance in the areas they cared about, more because they limited the hardware they run on, unlike android or windows which have all kinds of manufacturers/drivers. When you specialize of course you can squeeze more out of it, in the areas you want to be strong in. To me both approaches are certainly valid they just yield very different market shares. The diverse platform in terms of manufacturers seems to always sell the most units (android, windows on desktop) but due to competition will always have a much smaller margin on the hardware, necessitating software/services being the core of their business. The specialized platform will always be able to control the price they sell the hardware at and keep a good profit margin and can merry the OS creation and the hardware design at the same time to complement each other. Generally speaking, this allows you to have about equal performance at lower specs (in IOS a device with half the RAM, and lower CPU tends to get same performance as android with greater specs). The lower specs needed can also increase the margin they get on the hardware they sell.
     
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  36. angrypenguin

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    I have to agree with this to some extent. My 5+ year old MacBook Pro is still my favorite laptop to work on. It cost 50% more than my prior laptops, but has lasted in active use more than twice as long and provided better hardware for much of that duration (eg: I haven't seen a screen that good in another laptop - they do exist, but they're in similarly pricy offerings). I'm not a huge fan of the iPhone experience (largely from the upgrade treadmill - the devices themselves are pretty neat), but I'd happily replace my MacBook with another MacBook.
     
  37. Nubz

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    And I'm glad to know in advance never to spend a penny on you ad spammed games.
     
  38. Dustin-Horne

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    Debunked by who, Apple? There's a reason to use Alienware as a comparison... it's sickly overpriced because of the name. Here's a more valid comparison. Looking at Mac Pro:

    3.5Ghz 6 Core Xeon Processor
    16 GB DDR3
    Dual FirePro D500
    256 GB Storage (PCIe flash)
    Price Tag: $3,999

    Now let's look at the machine I built:
    3.5 Ghz 6-Core i7
    32 GB DDR4
    GeForce 980ti
    6.5 TB Storage (512 Solid State, 3 TB Platter, 2x 1.5 TB Platter)
    Price Tag: $2,000

    That's half the price. The Apple has dual graphics cards or chips or however it's configured and has a Xeon vs an i7, but even coupled with support, I could hardly call a $2,000 difference "on par" price wise.
     
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  39. Tomnnn

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    Speaking of Moore's law, check out the news on weyl fermions. Even if we're running out of significant upgrades to make, weyl fermions are massless quasi-particles that carry charge 1000 times more efficiently than electrons :D

    I'm sure there are details in the research that make that make sense. Imagine the technology that may rise out of this!

    I have funny ideas for ads. My go to example is finding a house with a tv in it and the tv is running ads and the npcs watching are acting like it's an actual show. I don't want to just throw them up in the users face at random. "ads" is only 1 letter short of what it really is for the gaming industry. I hate DRM more than anyone and if ad services require internet/data then f* that.

    @Dustin Horne I'm pretty sure building a machine part by part was left out of this discussion on purpose :p In college, the saying was... $3,000 is a future safe budget super computer if you get it as parts... or it's an apple you'll need to re-buy in 3 years, like mine :)

    --edit

    Though to be fair, if the machine was running on titans, then having a second card would be a difference of $1000 :p
     
  40. Dustin-Horne

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    Sure, and I purposely went from one extreme to the other (Alienware vs HomeBrew) and I didn't monitor costs but my home built also has double the ram and DDR 4 instead of DDR3. :) It used to be far cheaper to build, then for awhile it was way cheaper to buy, and now the prices are about on par. The reason I build is to pick and choose my components.

    I don't think either machine is running Titans in my comparison. :) And to my earlier point, the Alienware model running my same CPU but with half the ram, less storage space and dual 970's instead of a 980 is $3,700.
     
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  41. Tomnnn

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    If they're comparable I guess I can give in to my usual habit and just buy something prebuilt from corsair.
     
  42. ippdev

    ippdev

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    And matching quality for quality will still be in the same ballpark. Try to match a MacPro specs and you will come up higher on the build side. And then you gotta load it with software..which the OS X machine comes loaded with to do most creative work and business tasks out of the box.
    Nope.. Didn't pay for that either. I got the disc with a new iMac and frankly I am still on Mountain Lion on this iMac and do not have any reason to upgrade. Everything works just dandy.
    When I saw the list of comparative hardware it was one helluva lot longer than that to match specs. And it was talking build to build and component for component. I ain't convinced as I have seen this drop parts schema before and saw it called out by folks alot more tech savvy than I. Where are the fans and etceteras.
     
  43. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    You can automate the process of loading software if you slipstream the installers into the Windows installation media though I've never actually bothered to do it as the installers invariably change faster than my installations of Windows.

    Alternatively you can write a script that will silently install any software packages supporting it one after the other while you're not at the system. I know Visual Studio supports silent installs and I believe Unity does as well.
     
  44. ippdev

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    I meant with no extra money being spent.
     
  45. Dustin-Horne

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    Alright add $100 for the case which came with the fans, $50 for the CPU cooler and $80 for the PSU. I didn't add those parts because they are trivial. So $230, still leaves a $1,770 difference... add the OS ($110) and you're talking $1660 difference. However, I left out the trivial parts because my build has an additional 16GB of Ram (and it's DDR4), more hard drive space and a bigger SSD. You can nitpick small extra parts all day but you still won't make up the difference. And you can't include a monitor because it's not included in the Mac price either. My audio was integrated, Bluetooth integrated, Wireless AC integrated (and a built in access point if I want to use it as one) so didn't have to buy any of those peripherals:

    http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

    There's the pro specs. Feel free to point out anything that I missed other than the proprietary thunderbolt ports.

    I should add the CPU difference. In this case the Mac Pro is Xeon where I'm running an i7 5930k. Performance wise they are going to be essentially the same. The difference is that Xeons are needed to support multi CPU setups (which the Mac isn't) and support for ECC Ram which the Mac has. Having error correcting capabilities is nice but it impacts memory performance and can lead to slower boot time as well. It's real benefit is realtime recovery in server base scenarios.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
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  46. ippdev

    ippdev

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    If you were quoting the fans versus the MacPro fan setup it ain't even in the same league. Ten bucks here 50 bucks there pretty soon yer talking a billion dollahs.:)
     
  47. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That's even less valid than the Alienware comparison, though, isn't it? You didn't buy a computer, you bought a pile of (incomplete) bits and then built one. You also have warranty on individual parts rather than the system as a whole, and no single port of call if you need support in general. For the average user you really need to look past the tech specs to properly evaluate the value of a computer.

    Heck, even for someone like me, I'll cite my 5+ year old MacBook Pro as an excellent value purchase even at it's premium price point. (Granted laptops are a little different for someone like me as they're not so DIY-able like a desktop system.)

    Haha, yeah, that's what I thought must have happened. I don't upgrade my Macs often enough for that to have worked for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  48. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    Perhaps and I actually said as much earlier (I was intentionally going to the other extreme). But from strictly a hardware perspective, I was making the point that Macs are priced at a premium. Even the Alienware is cheaper for the same specs, although only by a few hundred dollars. The reason I went the parts route was to show how much of that price point actually covers the cost of support.
     
  49. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    I wonder which brand will embrace the 2016 pascal chips and what their cost will be.
     
  50. ippdev

    ippdev

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    I didn't see you factor in the time you spent putting it together. You make what..25 to 50 bucks an hour? Add that to the cost for a proper estimate. Time is money. Another day, another dollar..