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Feedback Will Unity ever become what is promises?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Logaaan, Aug 23, 2023.

  1. Logaaan

    Logaaan

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    On serious note, it's question I ask myself regularly.
    Knowing how absolutely messy and disorienting C++ is, C# and my knowledge of Unity is what keeps me here, for the most part.

    But then, Unity has become barely usable over the years. From 2018 on, it became less and less usable, until I think I have reached the "Lets just finish one thing and then move on forever" mode.

    You see, Unity is wonderful - when it actually works, which, is not too many times.
    And so only thing that currently keeps it above competition is the Asset Store and github, as Unity has been becoming more and more worthless over the years with blank promises and failed features.

    Will Unity ever keep to their promises?
    Will they offer fair terms in the future? (Like the Asset Store refund policy, where if you pay for crap that absolutely does not work, your money is literally gone forever.)

    It's hard for me to think about moving to other Engines.. But last usable version I've used was 2021.
    From there, it went straight downhill and any efforts to make the engine work like it's supposed to rather failed.

    What versions are you using?
    What makes your editor work like it should?
     
  2. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I've gotten several asset store refunds.
     
  3. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Unity 2023.1.

    I don't know what I'm doing right but aside from the very rare crash I don't have problems with this release, and that's including on macOS where some people have found it to be unusable.

    Meanwhile there was a point where I was getting at least one crash per day with 2021.
     
  4. warthos3399

    warthos3399

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    We all know the last "good version" of Unity was 2019 LTS build. After that is a minefield. One of the biggest concerns has been the (very old) version of Umbra, that Unity uses for its occlusion culling, way out of date, and at this point, useless, and static batching shoots itself in the foot.

    Until Unity updates/addresses OC and Static Batching, it doesnt matter how many updates and new features they introduce, how about updating/fixing what you already have?.
     
  5. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    So far I've never had any trouble with 2021 LTS, where my main project is. I have one just-for-fun "play around with HDRP" project in 2023, which crashes about once a day. Not untenable if you save frequently, but I hope 2023 LTS is more stable.
     
  6. spiney199

    spiney199

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    Same experience here. My main project is in 2021.3. Never had a crash for the year I've been working on it.

    For a newer project I opted for the latest 2023 beta. Only had about three crashes in a few weeks. Not to say it's bug free. Definitely lots of bugs. But I am definitely enjoying the new features, updated UI, and other facets of it.
     
  7. warthos3399

    warthos3399

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    Ill also admit, my latest project is with 2021 LTS, and to be honest, no crashes or probs so far, still dont like some of the menu changes. like where they moved Prefabs, the old way was better, lol.
     
  8. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    2021 LTS, it crashes every 5 minutes unless I disable graphics multi threading for the editor and builds.

    I have also never managed to get an asset store refund, but last time I tried Unity didn’t have a refund policy in place (like a year ago).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2023
  9. TheNullReference

    TheNullReference

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    I'd be curious what experiences brought you to your current opinion of Unity.

    I think the engine is the best on the market for mobile, tablet and android development. Even though it is absolutely not built for WebGL, it remains pretty competitive there as well, just due to how usable the engine is even though it has to go through like 5 conversions to be web compatible.

    The editor hardly ever crashes, and their push to migrate from mono to .NET is really exciting and will really open up what's possible. I originally had my doubts, but lets look at the future of Unity in 3-4 years if they achieve their goals.

    We're going to have a .NET backend (modern C#, nuget packages, faster domain reloading, source generators, increased developer talent) which has high performance, multi-threaded C# using ECS systems for performance critical tasks, with games you can build for almost any platform.

    Pretty exciting if they can achieve their goals.
     
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  10. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    This is the thing that really gets me. For all my many, many issues with Unity, I've haven't had an issue with editor stability that wasn't tied to getting caught in loops in my own code since probably around Unity 2017. Before that? Sure. The Mac version of Unity was notably unstable around versions 4 and 5.

    But crashes? Crashes have been rare for a while now.
     
  11. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    I think this is really dependent on the project. In most of my own stuff I never have crashes, but in the large commercial projects I work on at work where there are tons of dependencies and plugins etc, we can get crashes randomly every day for weeks and then none for months.
     
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  12. AcidArrow

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    For me it crashes (or actually, freezes / spinning beach ball of death) on an empty project if I have editor multithreaded rendering on and I play around maximizing and minimizing the game view in play mode.
     
  13. PanthenEye

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    Crashing has never been a problem for me, maybe some back in Unity 2018, when they did the nested prefab thing and it took a very long time for the asset store to catch up. But I also don't touch tech stream anymore, which has eliminated most of the issues like that.
     
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  14. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I'm on 2021 LTS.
     
  15. Logaaan

    Logaaan

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    Well so, to expand on this..
    Unity literally throws errors for it's own packages.
    Not to mention that in 2023, I have to close the package manager and reopen it if I want to see anything but spinwheel.

    Eventually, my biggest issue is with freezing.
    It just freezes, gets down to 0% CPU, and just remains frozen. At random, but mostly when I save code.
    This has been true for many years
    Heck, even Unity Hub took years to fix.
    (It kept on logging you off for no real reason, and so you could not use package manager).

    Working with it every day, it's more like hell ride. It just does not have anything that works reliably at this point.

    The reload times went insanely up, import times also, and generally, it performs so bad, I have to close it a few times a day.

    Mind you, there are no errors anywhere. All it takes is to change a line (add space on end), save the file, and there is a chance it will freeze and reload forever.
    Then coding becomes utterly painful.
     
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  16. DragonCoder

    DragonCoder

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    That needs to have something to do with ypur project unfortunately. Didn't experience that in 2021 or 2022 veraions. Or are you on the 2023 beta?
     
  17. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Use LTS version, not betas, which has all debug and safety checks enabled.
     
  18. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I think people should hang on to 2021 LTS for a while. Unity announcing they are pushing back the 2023 LTS in order for it to stabilise more, is a direct result to early 2022 LTS being rather poor, so I think 2022 is still not ready for prime time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2023
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  19. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    What exactly are people expecting from an initial LTS release? Jumping forwards a step and pre-empting the answer, why do people think it would or should be dramatically different to the latest Tech release it's built on?

    After all, it's the exact same software as that Tech release, and only one short iteration of fixes later.
     
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  20. warthos3399

    warthos3399

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    Exactly why i preach about 2019 LTS and 2021 LTS (so far has been pretty damn good), beyond that, dumpster fire. I would never use anything over 2021 LTS, not for a serious project...
     
  21. ARealiti

    ARealiti

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    There are ticketing systems for reporting issues, these Anti Unity Threads aren't helping anyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2023
  22. AcidArrow

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    I would expect LTS to be pretty stable and relatively "big-ish" issue free and I would expect the same from late TECH. If the iteration of fixes is too short, then it should be longer. It is sort of what they are doing with 2023 (although not quite, since I guess 2023.3 will get new features, so there are new opportunities for bugs).

    In the end, I don't really care about the inner workings of Unity, I expect when they communicate "this release is good to use for production" (which they currently do by branding a release "LTS"), for it to actually be "good to use".

    Now if their method of getting there is flawed and they consistently fail to make it serve its purpose, making the labels they put on releases meaningless, that sounds like a systemic Unity problem and not a problem with people's expectations.

    Because otherwise, this argument sounds pretty similar to things I hear about Apple products, where expecting the super expensive hardware to work well is met with "What were you expecting, it's 1st gen hardware, of course it's going to be terrible", I was even told that from an official Apple employee here, who really didn't want to fix the permanent burn-in (to the point where using photoshop was super confusing) the laptop's panel got after 3 months of use, but I shouldn't be complaining about it, because it was 1st gen hardware, therefore I shouldn't expect to be able to use the product I bought, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2023
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  23. angrypenguin

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    Totally fair. I admit to being disappointed more than once by a big issue which was let to slide.

    Assuming that the build and release pipelines are decent, what advantage does this give? If fixes people need are ready to go then get 'em out.

    Obviously I want everything done yesterday, but since that's not precisely reasonable then I'm ok with a regular release cadence and just picking the ones I want.

    Regarding the naming convention, I haven't paid much attention to whatever they're communicating about it. To me, it's just the name. "Long Term Support". All I expect from it is that they support it for the prescribed term.
     
  24. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I mean ignoring all their marketing and blog posts and the way they talk about it, yes, all you can expect from LTS is “Long Term Support”.

    But I think they actually emphasize more the stability and production readiness than the support.

    IMG_3525.jpeg IMG_3526.jpeg
     
  25. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That's what I tend to do, yeah.

    For what it's worth, none of that seems untrue to me. Based on my experience (YMMV) the LTS releases are the most stable, and they are production ready.
     
  26. Antypodish

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    I know at some point (don't know if it a general rule for tech release) alpha and betas had more safety checks enabled and debug logs, in comparison to LTS. Meaning, LTS should be technically faster than alpha, or beta.
     
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  27. AcidArrow

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    So 2022 is the most stable release yet? The release that was so bad that they are pushing 2023 LTS back to make sure that one is somewhat stable?

    2022 has like 3 blocking bugs for me (one might be intended, not sure, I can’t get a reply from Unity), so it’s definitely not the most stable release yet and production ready.

    But it may be because I write my own custom features, as everyone keeps telling me I should do instead of complaining, and when the APIs I use “change” I’m never sure if it’s intentional or if it’s a bug and working around the changes takes a lot of time and there have been many instances where after I spent the time to “fix” the features, Unity went “oops, my bad” and reverted the behavior.

    The most frustrating part of all is that these things happen to features and APIs that Unity doesnt develop any more and during LTS releases. I don’t know why camera stacking and OnPostRender post processing effects don’t work any more with built-in in Unity 2022, on iOS, but they don’t. I don’t know why the old input manager has bugs added to it, even though they are adding nothing to it, but it does.

    But sure, the gyro joint around the corner just released its tastiest souvlaki yet, it still tasted like cement.
     
  28. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    If that's how you want to interpret things, go for it. Otherwise, I'd call your attention to a few bits of language that may influence that: "seems", "based on my experience", "YMMV", the pluralisation on "LTS releases".
     
  29. Logaaan

    Logaaan

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    So, today I tried to use UI Toolkit.
    Dissapointing.

    Not only they market a bug as a feature, but.. damn it.
    It just plain does not work with custom fonts, nor is there a solid way to create fonts. It's in a state of half-usable software, as always.

    So I'm not saying that upgrading things is bad. It's just painful to find out that even 2022 LTS is halfway usable, and you have to stick to older solutions.

    The question is.. why? They focus on innovation, but they apparently have so much going on, they can't keep up. At least it seems like it.
    Let's face it. Unity is not going to be Unreal. Never. So why try to be Unreal.

    Take for example.. they removed all of the AI, baking, etc from editor, and made them into packages.
    So they stripped down the initial overhead, that you will use either way. It does not make sense.

    Look. Culling system is bad.
    Why does not Unity reach out to community, and integrate the most performant one? (Culling Pro, for example.)
    Instead of going into sales, give the person like.. 50k$, and get it into engine.
     
  30. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It does once you realize that you won't necessarily use them depending on whether you want to use DOTS, third party assets that do a better job than official (eg Bakery), or don't need that functionality in your project (eg non-gaming apps).
     
  31. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    UI Toolkit integrated animation API is still "experimental" in 2022LTS and uses milliseconds for some reason.
    For the vast majority of mobile games, which is Unity's bread and butter, it works well enough. For indies, for whom it's not enough, there's the Asset Store. And studios buy one of their success plans which gets them Unity veteran engineers who will create a custom solution for them or they implement their own solutions. It's part of the business at this point. A platform that's crossplatform and always up to date with APIs but barebones.
     
  32. impheris

    impheris

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    For my main project right now: 2021 LTS
    For testing things: 2022 LTS

    IDK man, using LTS maybe... i guess... i almost never have a crash or bug (in fact the crash screen that i remember is pretty old, maybe it changed by now), maybe following the recommendatios form unity's devs helps, things like "keep LTS for your projects and the other versions just to try experimental things" is something, i do not understand why you guys have so much problems with unity's editor and no is not sarcasm

    Well, i thing the roadmap is exactly what you need to know
    https://unity.com/roadmap/unity-platform

    That is literally the last usable version xD 2021 LTS we are now on 2022 LTS (2021 is still supported), i do not understand what you were trying to say here, sorry...
     
  33. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    Many sections on the roadmap haven't been updated in years. The items are either out of date or there haven't been added any like in the 2D roadmap - it's completely empty. Gameplay roadmap is similarly out of date with what they're doing right now. The roadmap site is practically useless.
     
  34. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Every couple years somebody some Unity goes "THIS time we'll be taking the roadmap seriously and keeping it updated" and then they do for a few months, only for that to basically completely peter out, probably because it doesn't make any real shareholder money.
     
  35. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    It's a marketing tool whenever they do bigger moves. Basically, "look at how impressive our roadmap is whenever we update it once in a blue moon" and it's also used for deflecting feedback in public places by redirecting to roadmaps and asking to submit suggestions there, where said suggestions disappear in a black box never to be seen again. Clearly, there are no internal processes for keeping the roadmaps up to date and relevant.
     
  36. tleylan

    tleylan

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    Will Unity ever become what I personally want? :(

    Aren't many of the crashes completely outside of the editor's control except possibly through a top level ignore everything exception handler? It is a plug-in architecture to the extreme and subject to whatever anybody modifying editor behaviors throws at it, no?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  37. DragonCoder

    DragonCoder

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    Well, depends. One could say that it's the engine's duty to not allow its API to lead to crashes ever. Sometimes performance reasons may prevent that though. E.g. it's easy to cause a crash through the new Mesh API, but the point of that API is to be fast (for frame-based mesh manipulation), so it cannot sanitize the input all the time.
     
  38. tleylan

    tleylan

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    One could in fact say that. I've not seen a software system that cannot crash and I dare say I haven't seen a hardware system that can't fail either. I dare say the people who complain the loudest may have failures in software they wrote despite their "duty".
     
  39. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You can't prevent all crashes, but it'd be nice if, say, they finally got around to implementing a way to escape from infinite loop related issues in play mode. There used to be an asset for that ages ago.
     
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  40. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Many are, what about the rest?
     
  41. Or you could put that prevention in your own loops and not imposing the injection of useless crap in other people's carefully crafted loops. Nonsense like this makes me wonder if we overdemocratized that game development.

    ps: and don't get me wrong, I'm a human too, I make mistakes... on average once a year I also make some accidentally infinite loop. But then I swallow my pride, open task manager, end the process, restart unity, fix my code and get on with my life and be glad, that no useless stuff eats away the resources to prevent me once a year to have to restart unity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2023
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  42. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    I will say that when I'm using LTS, Unity crashes less often than Blender, FL Studio, Corel Photo Paint. Affinity Photo, Firefox, and Windows, so it's actually pretty rock-solid.
     
  43. tleylan

    tleylan

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    What about all the bugs we are subject to in general? Software, hardware, operational, clerks' misplacing paperwork, banks making deposits to the wrong account, etc. Stuff isn't perfect and Unity isn't and won't be and I guess we move on hoping improvements "overall" continue.

    I tend to think professional software firms calculate risk and assign priorities. They probably aren't my priorities but that's life.
     
  44. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    yeah man the entire editor should hang and require a force quit because of a typo

    Is there a reason you look at any potential feature request and go "oh but that would be too hard" or "nobody really needs this because it's not a problem for me?" There literally was an addon for this that didn't "inject useless crap into carefully crafted loops" but you're just ignoring the part where I brought that up I guess.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/released-panic-button-stop-infinite-loops-in-1-second.350666/

    edit: there's even a new one. There's no reason this shouldn't be in the editor, it just throws an exception into the main thread to kill the script
    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/utilities/emergency-exit-194959
     
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  45. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    No, the inability to handle infinite loop is really a problem in unity editor, because it is possible to create such loop with a typo. You don't even need to inject anything, just run it in a separate thread and kill the thread on demand.

    Note that most IDEs handle infinite loop hangs just fine in this exact way - they can simply kill launched process without killing IDE.
     
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  46. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    I was just about to post that Unity ruined my day with a crash and a never ending loading bar but it turns out I managed to create an infinite loop by trying to fix a null reference error with a quick null check in code I hadn't touched in months. So yes please for safe infinite loop handling. My tunnel vision might've been the source of the issue, but there's no reason the editor should crash in a situation like this. Even Godot handles it gracefully, albeit their external player has downsides as well.
     
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  47. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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