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Why Unity 5.0 is STILL a good deal

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hippocoder, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Unity 5.0 is still on my radar but they're going to have to adjust the price a bit or make addons make sense:

    -------

    1. With Unreal 4, you will start losing money vs Unity 5 at $90,000 (using dollars now to clarify). At this point, the royalties outweigh the cost of Unity Pro + Android Pro and iOS pro. This does not include WebGL (which I haven't factored in here).

    2. Blueprint is fantastic. There's no 2 ways around it, and playmaker / uscript / etc ... aren't even NEAR as good. But C++ may yet be a stretch too far for some, however for those who prefer to script.

    3. Horses for Courses. There's some things Unity just does better right now, such as the up coming UI (yes UE4 has UI abilities, but you'll probably want scaleform) and Enlighten (Although UE4 doesn't even *need* it, you will need to pay extra to license it from their partner program).

    4. Learning a new engine can be time consuming (Thanks murgilod).

    5. More targetable platforms with Unity (but also more cost, lets not forget).

    6. Unreal takes it's revenue from your wholesale price (the amount it's sold for, before vendors take their cut).

    ----------


    So while UE4 does seem incredible value (and for a hobbyist it really does blow Unity 4 away) for an indie thinking about making money, it's not so cut and dried at all.

    Ultimately, the price of Unity will have to come down if they're to keep a lot of users. How it does, is anyone's guess.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
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  2. Murgilod

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    4. Transitioning from a Unity focused workflow with Unity focused custom tools to Unreal Engine could result in a good deal of lost time from acclimating to a new engine with new workflows.
     
  3. landon912

    landon912

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    While number one is a fact, I would rather take the $20 gamble instead of a $1500(and some add ons) gamble. With unity I don't know if I'm going to lose a few thousands, whereas with unreal engine I'm guaranteed to only lose a couple hundred at most. In my student budget this makes a LOT of difference. After the 65k mark, Epic can take their extra cut, I'm happy.
     
  4. bitcrusher

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    Not really a good deal imo, I won't be updating, Unreal engine 4 has linux support, and with linux editor incoming, I am not staying to deal with an antique mono. I am tired of getting S*** on when I mention Linux on the Unity forums. Also, how awesome is it to pull from git from Tim Sweeney and enjoy full source code. Also webgl will be free, IOS for unreal, minus 5% and $20 but that is like nothing, if you make 10 dollars, Epic only makes $.50. Hardly something to consider if your making a ton of money and nothing when you are indie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  5. orbobservation

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    I doubt I'm going to jump ship just yet, but I'm certainly going to invest in the licenses for the other engines- and through the process of learning the processes of the other engines I'm sure the best choice will prevail over time. Usually a quick weigh in on importing assets and creating a medium scene will do the trick for assessment.

     
  6. drawcode

    drawcode

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    Agree on all points.

    My take is possibly Unity knew about this (if they didn't that would be a shock) and that is why they have been doing Unity Cloud, Unity Ads and also of course Asset Store. They take industry standard 30% on those then they might actually want lots more content to fuel those networks and eventually Unity price comes down or very low, the subscription depth you take determines the royalties/cut Unity gets.

    Ultimately the way to make money now is to take a cut of some aspect of revenue (Apple was ahead of the times in platform direction and we are still seeing the effects of it even today with Unreal's asset store). Cloud, Ads, promotional networks etc are pretty big and Unity could have a nice non spammy one. I am sure this is in the cards. I think there will probably also be royalty versions of their subscriptions that are much lower.

    The game engine subscription market has been shaken up (Unity at $75 per seems high now or $300 per month for game developers utilizing desktop/web, ios, android and webgl) that yesterday was flipped. Unreal was defensive for some time, Unity encroached on the AA and AAA territory and then Unreal just did the same on the other side, going right at Unity's indie base that made them what they are today. Crazy indeed. Is subscription to game engines the new rebirth of publishers in some other form? Possibly. I hope they have many different options for different game companies and non game companies alike.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  7. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    More points added to OP (thanks guys).

    It does seem ridiculously high given that you don't even need to keep paying that monthly cost to epic, just pay it once, and once again whenever you need updates. I think Unity's subscription model will have to adapt.

    The problem is that Unity is actually value for money, but educating people why is very much a lost cause. But that's not the end user's problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  8. bitcrusher

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    UDK has been free for a while, as well as cryengine, they just decided to make their presence more hospitable to indie developers now. These deals are more are less about value but gaining marketshare in the indie scene.
     
  9. makeshiftwings

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    How are you calculating that? The cost for Pro and plugins is $4500. You would need to make $90k for 5% of it to be $4500.

    I think it's too early to say Unity's upcoming UI is good since most of us haven't seen it yet.
     
  10. Noisecrime

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    I agree with the points made and honestly no matter what I still feel Unity is a good deal for what you get, especially on a personal level. I wish it was a little bit cheaper though especially when you need several add-ons, but doesn't everybody want things cheaper ;)

    However as i've said the perception of how good a deal it is has been pretty shattered by recent developments and Unity will need to respond in some form, though I very much doubt it will be anything like the sort of numbers people have been calling for.

    They will have to respond simply becuase they face an eroded user base and even though they might not make any direct revenue from Unity free users, they do make revenue via the asset store and the potential to up-sell them from free to pro. I.e. they stand to lose not just 'a few' Pro users, but vital numbers of developers in their ecosystem.

    Part of me wonders if they knew about this and that's why they seem to have announced Unity 5 so early, plus Unity 5 pro users now get the team license for free on top of pre-order bonuses. However after today I just don't think that will be enough, the question is whether Unity counter with something aimed at the hobby level developers and/or offer a more attractive deal to their paying Pro users.
     
  11. Jodon

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    The brutal thing is it's $4500 PER SEAT. No one seems to be taking that into account yet. Let's say you have a team of 4, you need to make 4 x $90k for Unity to be the better choice. They will definitely have to respond.
     
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  12. Jingle-Fett

    Jingle-Fett

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    Keep in mind though, there is one thing that keeps Unity Pro's price where it is. And that's the existence of Unity Free. Unity really doesn't have to do anything in response to Unreal, in fact I'd argue that would be very unwise.

    For Unity Pro to go down in price to something similar to Unreal's, you'd need to eliminate Free. And free is cheaper than $20/month, even if it means missing out on certain features. Missing some features is tolerable because you can still develop your game in Free and when the time is right, upgrade to Pro (or I should say IF you develop the game to the point where you need the pro features, because a lot of people don't get that far).
    Also, with Unity Free you can develop Android and iOS games for free, whereas with Unreal you'd still have to do the $20/month. So there's that too. And neither of them ask for royalties.

    Don't get me wrong, $20/month + source code access is a fantasitc deal. But I don't see this being a serious threat for Unity. They can both coexist comfortably.
    Free is the reason why Unity has become such a threat to Unreal. They know it, and most of what Unreal has been doing has been in direct response to Unity. Unreal 4's interface closely resembles Unity's, UDK was released in response to Unity going free, Unreal emphasizing ease of use...I don't think Unity should give up being proactive in favor of being reactive.
     
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  13. Zeblote

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    It does? I don't see it anywhere on the site.
     
  14. Dabeh

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    UE4 just came out and Unity 5 hasn't come out yet. This thread is much too early.
     
  15. Noisecrime

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    and how much does your product/game need to make in profit to support those 4 developers? Even if you pay them half, you still have to account that your product needs to make more than that to cover tax, marketing etc. Because don't forget this is 5% on gross profits, so all those things have to be covered by the profit of selling your game and that affects the gross profit needed to be a substanable business.

    So I'm not so sure its as clear-cut as people are making it out to be. However interestingly for small studios (1-5 devs) UE4 does have a strong advantage due to the discrepancy between per seat of Unity and flat 5% gross profits of UE4. Maybe we'll see Unity address this aspect in terms of any counter-moves it makes.
     
  16. TheDMan

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    Well basically you are comparing an engine that is out to an engine that isnt.

    So you have to compare Unity 4 to Unreal Engine 4.

    Unity 5 is non-existent in the reality of potential users. Its just something they see some videos about and some people talk about of what may or may not be included in version 5. For all you know it may not be released for another year, or 2 years more.


    People wont know if Unity 5 is a good deal until they can get their hands on it and know with 100% certainty what its features are. Until then, its a bad deal. Very very bad.
     
  17. makeshiftwings

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    Or you could pay the $19 just once, and then immediately cancel your subscription, and you can then develop your game in UE4 as long as you want and only resubscribe when you need to update. A one-time fee of $19 isn't that much more expensive than free.
     
  18. JohnnyA

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    Maybe Hippo is comparing vs 5 because he already owns the 4 license thus there is no purchasing decision that needs to be made? I'd say many people here fall in to that basket.
     
  19. makeshiftwings

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    None of that matters.... no matter what other costs you have, paying less for an engine is always better than paying more. If you owe a million dollars in marketing fees and developer back pay, then paying more money in licensing fees isn't going to magically make your other costs go down.
     
  20. angrypenguin

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    Yeah, but that kind of licensing shenanigan is more or less veiled piracy, since either way you're evading payment for a product you're using. I expect that they're all piratable already if that's really what you want to do.
     
  21. BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    The editor requires login to use. I don’t know if using it offline or with a deactivated acc is possible.
     
  22. Zeblote

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    pirate downloads of ue4 and the source are already available so why not... I guess noone would notice until you actually release a game which I guess a pirate is not going to do.
     
  23. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Especially with Unity's past...
    They make a lot promises, or tease people with future features. But when that actually ships and in what state is another story.

    I think some people just look for stuff, to justify their decision to stay with Unity.
     
  24. JohnnyA

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    If its allowed by the license (and I don't know either way) then its not piracy.
     
  25. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Updated to use US dollars (How are you calculating that? The cost for Pro and plugins is $4500. You would need to make $90k for 5% of it to be $4500.) -- fixed. Sorry :)
     
  26. makeshiftwings

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    It's not piracy; it's explicitly allowed according to their FAQ: https://www.unrealengine.com/faq

     
  27. bitcrusher

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    Also you don't have to sign up for 12 months subscription like Unity requires. I can subscribe for month for a job, and unsubscribe if i want to work on something else.
     
  28. makeshiftwings

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    Ohhhh... you brits and your crazy moneys. ;)
     
  29. TheDMan

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    Yeah, the broken promises and backtracking is what made me delay upgrading to Unity 4, then after a while of seeing where it was headed I decided not to upgrade to version 4.1 - 4.3 at all and wait to see what version 4.5+/5.0 was going to do. And I'm so glad I did. I would have been kicking myself.

    I feel really bad for those who pre-ordered yesterday on all the hype. They must be feeling a lot of butt-hurt right now. I wonder how many pre-order refunds they got today.
     
  30. angrypenguin

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    Fair enough. That's... really strange. Why make it a sub if you're not getting people to keep up the payments?
     
  31. Grimwolf

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    I'd consider $90k from a game a pretty massive success, personally. I could live off that for several years.
     
  32. makeshiftwings

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    The only explanation I can think of is that everyone at GDC is really drunk right now.
     
  33. Rodolfo-Rubens

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    lol, me too, and some bastards out there making 50k $ / day. Oops, did I say too much?
     
  34. Noisecrime

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    Except Hippo is basing that on having to purchase new Pro licenses for Unity + Android + iOS and that of course gives you approx two years of Unity updates, so per annum its half that value $45,000 (i.e your game can reach $90k over two years). If you then already own Pro and are just upgrading 4 to 5 then its half that again so $22,500 p.a. Personally as a freelancer you should be making at least that if not double (depending upon world location).

    This is why I keep saying its not a straight-forward comparrision, not to mention further differences come into play between needing a single license or several seats worth (UE4 then becomes a good deal) or if you aren't earning a living from Unity in the first place (UE4 is again a better deal).

    However I fully expect Unity to respond to this challenge, the really question is what will they respond with.
     
  35. BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    Suddenly nobody cares about Unity’s new GUI on 4.6 anymore :D
    Which world is this?!
     
  36. nipoco

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    A better one
     
  37. orbobservation

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    And it's not April 1st yet :p
     
  38. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I did mention that in the OP - Unreal would need scaleform or rolling your own UI, while Unity 4/5 has a native UI solution. So that's a consideration for some people.
     
  39. nipoco

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    A quote from Sweeney
    From this video.
    [video=youtube_share;cS6q1H23njM]http://youtu.be/cS6q1H23njM

    They care more about the successful games made with UE4 and the royalty share they get from. So they have confidence in their users.

    It's a good deal no matter how you look at it.
     
  40. ccsander

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    Maybe they know it is so buggy that developers will require the monthly updates and will therefore have to subscribe. :)

    It was confirmed over on the Unreal forums by a moderator that it is perfectly acceptable to just pay for a month, get the system, and then re-subscribe when you are ready to publish your game/app. I find this strange as well, but I think they are really just trying to attract every possible developer they can. Sure some people will be cheap and only pay the subscription every once in a while, but I would bet 90% who sign up just keep paying every month.
     
  41. pkid

    pkid

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    I agree that the price for Unity IOS/ANDROID should change. I can understand the $1500 for unity pro but paying $1500 each for IOS/ANDROID, and now they are making WebGl another separate add on, is just pushing it too far. Especially when you have to pay 1/2 of the total cost for each upgrade. I think they will lose a lot of people if they don't adapt.
     
  42. hippocoder

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    My prediction for Unity's response to this will be to keep the licenses at $1500 but lower the subscription costs a lot. They only need to lower it to $20 dollars. I predict they will offer:

    $20 - mac/win/linux/android/ios/webplayer
    +
    $20 - webgl
    +
    $20 - other platforms / version control


    This puts it right in line with UE4, and becomes kind down to what you prefer the most. This is without 5% royalties though. So paying for others on top does make sense. But $20 is still too low for what you get. However, it could lead to a lot of people getting the pro sub.

    I could be wrong, but as Epic and Crytek aren't offering a public license outright, it may be Unity feels confident and will just think about their sub in a new light.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  43. BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    If you cancel the sub, you also can’t use their Asset Store as a mod said on their forums.
    On Unity we can always download free goodies, no matter what.
     
  44. Jingle-Fett

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    Yes you can do that and $20 isn't expensive, not at all, like I said it's a great deal. But my point wasn't that the $20 is expensive, my point was that Unity doesn't necessarily have to change anything to remain competitive like a lot of people are saying, because UT already has Unity Free. Free is less than $20 and there are no royalties and that alone keeps it competitive (even if Free lacks some features). And for a lot of people that can make a big difference (especially in third world countries).

    Would I love it if UT reduced the price of Unity Pro? Absolutely, how would I not? But they don't necessarily have to do that to remain competitive, they're in a very strong position as they are. And I certainly don't want them to do that as a knee-jerk response to an announcement or to have that throw off their long term plans.
     
  45. Kinos141

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    I took a good look at UE4 and was not impressed enough to try it. My usual focus is gameplay and AI, and I didn't see anything about the AI component.
    Visual scripting is the trend and needs to be added to Unity to be a real competitor. I mean give Hutong some play, Unity. :D
     
  46. makeshiftwings

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    I think Unity should just offer a choice, you can pick either the current prices as they are, or you can do $19/month + 5% royalties. I don't personally want to pay royalties, but I think making the engine company's success dependent on actual sales of games made with it would really help put pressure on Unity to fix the things that developers want. Currently Unity gets your money whether or not you ever get your game working, so their business model is to focus more on new features to attract new Pro users. If they had to rely on games working, they'd have more incentive to fix bugs and finally do something about Mono.
     
  47. hippocoder

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    Thoughts on Unity bringing their sub model down to sane levels?
     
  48. TheCCJ

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    UE4 is nearly two years old. UE4 as a service is new, but the engine is fairly old at this point.
     
  49. AcidArrow

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    I think it would have made me consider it instead of perpetual licenses. Because previously I couldn't see any point at all in the subscription model they had.

    But I don't have any numbers, maybe the current subscription model was a success for Unity? Even though I completely fail to see the point of it priced like that.
     
  50. im

    im

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    @ Jingle Fett

    unreal engine is not udk, unreal still has udk free!

    what they are charging a subscription for is unreal engine, and not for the udk which is still free

    with unreal engine u get it including all the source code

    with udk u dont and its totally different older editor and no source code and no c/c++, just unreal script/kismet
     
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