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Question Why Some Unity Games Available on Windows Platform Only ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bewox, Aug 31, 2023.

  1. bewox

    bewox

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    Sometimes i wonder why some games on Steam that made with unity not available for Mac.
    For example the recent popular one, Sea of Stars. Currently the game only available for windows user only.
    Regarding to the minimum specs, it also doesn't seems too demanding which most current mac device can handle it.
    Is this related to specific technical / compatibility issue or just some kind of marketing preferences ?
    Because based on my own experience in some simple 2D project made with unity, it's always no problem with compatibility on mac. If the game runs well on windows, it usually runs well on mac. I'm not sure about a project with complex shaders and stuff though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  2. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Basically, as far as I'm aware developing for a mac pretty much requires a Mac. You could throw an untested package, but when errors start coming in, you'll need a mac to test them.

    And that is a hassle.
     
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  3. Murgilod

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    Because supporting Mac users sucks. You're lucky if 10% of your sales will come from them, but 90% of your support requests sure will. Porting is more than just hitting "build for platform."
     
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  4. spiney199

    spiney199

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    I think Steam's hardware survey honestly answers this question:
    upload_2023-8-31_16-27-9.png

    1.84% of Steam users. Not worth it for most devs, honestly.
     
  5. bewox

    bewox

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    I understand if that really an issue for small developer, but Sea of Stars developer is kinda big company i believe. I mean, having various device for testing won't be an issue for them.


    Porting to consoles surely is a whole different story but Mac & Windows has really similarity in terms of the development. But what i didn't aware is that the behavior of every single version of mac (in terms of OS version and the hardware architecture) could be pain in the ass for the supports.
    Thanks for highlighting this.


    Big thanks for the info. Now it's clear that the tiny portion of mac users not worth the works of patching and support.
     
  6. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    They have two games total on steam, this is their second game. The first one is a pixel art retro action game and the studio does not have a wikipedia page. This is a small developer.

    They don't really have similarities. Mac is unix-based, ditched OpenGL support and is pushing their metal api.

    Basically, it would be the last platform to support. Consoles are another story due to larger userbase.
     
  7. bewox

    bewox

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    I think it's still bigger company than most indie devs out there. I'm sure they can provide mac devices on their table. Still, i don't think this is the main issue.

    I mean the basic development. As i know consoles have their own API for specific event & stuff so it need an independent development at some stage while most project for Windows & Mac could be developed at the same time generally.
    But yes, any output difference between Mac & Windows device still be really a problem for devs. And the fact that the portion of Mac users on steam really TINY make it not worth for supporting the users & patching the game regularly, because i'm sure most dev should be fairly responsible to all platform they chosen. So i think this is the main reason why many devs not porting to Mac and focusing to platform with bigger audience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  8. adamgolden

    adamgolden

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    If they were small before, they won't be for long unless they want to be. Sea of Stars got several reviews of 100/100 and a Metacritic score of 90 for PS5 (making it one of the highest-rated Unity games available, afaik).. there's no thread in Made With Unity, nothing on the forum about their game at all that I could find. I'd like to see a "Made With Unity" thread titled "Sea of Stars" by the developers.. would personally like to see our stars shine more brightly around here :)
    sea_of_stars.jpg
     
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  9. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Stop making sweeping assumptions about stuff you clearly don't understand.

    You have come to a forum of expert game engine users, and started telling them how their engine works whilst simultaneously proving you have no idea how any of this works.

    Its not a good look.
     
  10. bewox

    bewox

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    IKR. They are rising star. One of best game this year IMO.
    It's really a good motivation for any unity user to see a game made with unity got so popular.

    Wait what ??
    This is just general discussion. What's wrong with my question or statement? why people so sensitive nowadays. I'm not telling anyone how their engine work. It's simply me explain my experiences making unity project for mac & windows and found both have similarity in terms of basic development process because that's what i experienced. From there, i wonder why some devs not just port their game to Mac also, because it's "easier" than to port to any other platform like consoles.
    The only thing i disagree (respectfully) with other user in this thread is about the developer can't afford the mac for their development.
    I don't know what's wrong with that ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  11. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    for IOS and Mac, I believe you need a mac to produce one that apple will ordain to put on their stores. You can build on a pc, but you need a file you have to copy (as I understand it) from the mac. On top of that you need to pay apple per year to be allowed to do it.. If you do what you do for free, paying up for a mac - even a "cheap" one, and paying apple around $99 (havent looked in a few years so I expect its gone up) on top of that, isnt something that appeals when you arent going to make money in return
     
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  12. bewox

    bewox

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    By the way, my question actually specifically for games published on steam, so the pricing with or without mac version will be the same i believe.
     
  13. Ryiah

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    Historically Apple has discouraged their platforms from being considered gaming platforms, and the Mx-based devices not supporting dedicated graphics cards hurts that even more. If that game were to be brought to their devices chances are it would hit the mobile devices (iOS) where most gamers are not desktop (macOS).

    A larger company doesn't make it easier to justify additional platforms. If anything the cost of having all of those team members makes it less likely you're going to want to take a chance on a platform that almost always won't have meaningful sales.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
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  14. bewox

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    Yes i'm aware about it. Just wondering about some unity games that seems like it could be fairly ported to Mac technically like sea of stars, among us etc but they aren't.

    Agreed. That's my reply to the previous post, that i'm sure the company is totally able to provide mac devices for testing and all if they want, so the inability to provide a mac devices must be not the reason why they don't add Mac version of the games. But extra cost for team member who handle the additional platform with really low sales indeed would be a problematic and be not worth it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  15. Ryiah

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    It's a non-trivial task. You need to modify code to support the platform, use the features of the platform if they're required (Apple is like developing for a console in terms of their requirements), you need to verify that it works on all the target systems, etc.

    My last work project was with a company of 15. We were very much underfunded the entire project and that's despite getting funding from a well known company. Paying for the hardware would have meant one developer wouldn't be paid. As it was the business guy wasn't paying himself to make it more viable to get the project.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  16. bewox

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    Wow really? It's kinda shocking actually. I was working in a small team in a really small digital agency. My project was just to make an e-learning application that later offered to some schools. Fortunately the company able provide various devices we need for development and testing purpose. But i'am aware that every company situation could be so different.
    But specifically for the Sea of Stars developer i mentioned (Sabotage studio), they even open a kickstarter that funded more than 1 Million USD, so in this case i still refuse to believe that this studio unable to provide mac devices on their table. :D
     
  17. Because you don't think about this with your (should have) business hat on. It doesn't worth it to hire people with mac skills and convert a project because of the lack of gamers in that space. End of story.
    And do not forget, it's not just provide some hardware on the table. It is hiring people, who knows how OSX works. It is rare to have both adequate game developer (code) and adequate proficiency in OSX (not just user level). (Mostly because gaming is not present on it much)
    If you can't find it in one person, you're there to hire a dedicated OSX-guy. Then what happens if (s)he leaves or involved in an accident and can't work? So you need at least two people if you want to do anything serious.
    If you find people who are coders and have OSX proficiency, then you will have people whose velocity severely crippled because they part-time try to kick the OSX to work so they don't do their base-assignment full time.

    So, is it worth it? For some, sure. But it is not the brightest _business_ decision. That's why don't more people make it.
     
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  18. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Effectively you're trying to argue that developers HAVE to support MacOS.

    You've been told that supporting MacOS is a pain in the butt, and you continue pushing your original angle.

    At least that's what it looks like.

    Basically, like I said, it is easy to produce a completely untested zip file for MacOS, but when bug reports starts coming in, you'll need an Apple device, and it isn't really worth it.

    Now, it would be great, if all companies joined forces together and created some sort of "game framework" which used platform independent binaries and could run on all platform, but basically, hell would need to freeze over for that to happen, as platform developers appear to be keenly interested in vendor lock-in, aside from linux, that is.

    That is peanuts.

    Shadowrun returns was 1.8 million.
    Pillars of eternity was 3.9 million.

    Now check their release date and graphical quality. With this amount of money they can easily not have spare funds for MacOS developer.
     
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  19. Ryiah

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    Sabotage Studios (the company behind the game) has 23 employees. Average cost of a developer which includes the salary, benefits, space and equipment, etc is approximately $100,000 USD. That's $2.3 million USD for a year which means that $1 million USD is five months at best.

    Sea of Stars was announced March 2020 and released August 2023. If we assume that's the entire development time that's 41 months which comes to $7.85 million USD. If they accept a reduced salary they might be as low as $5.85 million USD.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
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  20. ShilohGames

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    The issue is not about affording a device. The issue is the extra time needed for every build. I have released multiple games on Steam, including releasing Windows, Mac, and Linux builds. When you are ready to release a build, you have to select and build the correct platform in Unity. Unity takes a while to switch platform and then do the build. Then you have to copy the build into the correct folder in the Steamworks tools. Then you have to repeat those steps for each additional platform. Then once all of the builds are done, you push the delta update to Steam using Steamworks. Once it is uploaded, you can do additional testing on each platform through your Steam client on each device to make sure everything is working as expected.

    If you want to support Windows, Mac, and Linux, then check out an asset called Turbo Switch Pro. It reduces the time needed to switch between the platforms inside Unity, and it is a significant time savings.
    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/utilities/turbo-switch-pro-60040

    Another issue that comes up when supporting multiple platforms is determining which settings to use. Unity has slightly different support for features on each platform, and it varies depending on which Unity version was used. For example, the choice of Mono vs IL2CPP used to limit platform support.

    Support in 3rd party assets can also play a factor. For example, Vivox (popular voice chat asset) supported literally every platform except Linux. I don't know if that support has changed in the latest version. Every developer has a list of assets that they might want to use but might run into platform support issues when trying to deploy multiple platforms.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
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  21. Ryiah

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    You can automate these steps with a custom build script but you're still waiting for the tasks to complete.

    https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Build.IPostprocessBuildWithReport.OnPostprocessBuild.html
     
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  22. AcidArrow

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    With the way the OS is increasingly discouraging installing anything in any other way, I wouldn't be surprised if Mac ports sold better on the App Store than on Steam. (obviously not enough to make a difference).

    But to answer the OP, you generally (should) put the math down, here's how much effort (time and money) it is going to cost to do the port, add the complexity it will add in doing updates after that (longer builds, more documentation and weird issues to keep in mind, a lot more testing you have to do), add the support burden (by more weird issues, fan e-mails you have to reply to, the platform suddenly adding new requirements that you have limited time to respond to) and then weigh all that against your best estimate of how many sales you are going to get on the platform.

    Additional things to take into consideration: 1. You really like the platform and want to be super nice and support them (some sort of ethical stance), which I can see people doing for, say, Linux, I can't quite see them doing it for Mac. 2. The platform holder sweetens the deal for you, by flat out offering you money do the port, or promising you front page on their store for a while (which means better sales). I don't see Apple being interested in doing that.

    Solve the equation. If it is not super favourable, you don't do it (since this is all estimates and reality could easily be much worse).

    I've definitely done ports where it wasn't worth it and in certain ways I'm still paying the price, it's not fun.
     
  23. ShilohGames

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  24. Ryiah

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    Speaking of sales: Sea of Stars sold 100K copies on the first day. At $34.99 that's $3,449,000 but that's before we subtract for taxes, the store cut (Steam is 30%), etc. Sabotage didn't use a publisher but that means the costs are on them.

    https://twitter.com/seaofstarsgame/status/1696709610277663115
     
  25. bewox

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    Thanks man, Appreciate your views about this.

    The sentences you quoted is nothing more than my explanation to the other user about providing mac devices is not simply the reason why devs not add the Mac platform for their game, i believe it could be much more complex than that, just like your explanation about hiring people to work in team etc. That's much more make sense.


    Firstly, i never argue that devs HAVE to support mac. Not at all. read again ! It's pure question why some devs not add Mac as their platform.
    And, It's me who stated that it would be pain in the ass to support mac platform because i realized mac could have various version of OS and architecture.

    My response to you was simply only about my disagreement about how providing Mac could be an issue for this studio (Sea of Stars developer). That's all. I never disagree that build a game for Mac need Mac device. Sure it is.
    And my disagreement to anyone is always respectful. I'm happy with casual discussion.

    You may be one of the best unity expert in the world (i'm sure), but not the best forum reader at the moment.
     
  26. bewox

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    I'm surely have no idea about this math. Never been in a big game studio. In my country, that numbers are big TBH.
    But anyway, you think Sea of Stars Devs not adding Mac platform simply because they can't afford some Mac Devices ?
    I mean that really interesting if it's really the case. at least for me.
     
  27. Ryiah

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    No. It's a combination of the time you're taking away from other tasks and the cost of testing. A company would have to either scale up the number of employees or simplify the game to include macOS. For <2% of sales.
     
  28. Murgilod

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    Again, it's not just affording devices, it's affording
    • additional QA
    • potential delays due to platform specific requirements
    • additional ongoing support
    • additional development time in general
    When Mike Bithell Games was working on Volume, it was developed specifically on Mac and ported to Windows. This was back when the platforms were even more similar because it was in the day of Intel Macs and arguably the most "complete" OpenGL implementation MacOS (then OSX) had seen. For some reason, in the Windows version and only the Windows version, enemies were flopping over sideways and sinking into the floor. As I recall, this took several days to solve.

    You may go "well that was back in 2015" and yeah, it was! But these sorts of things still happen and that only becomes more difficult to deal with the bigger a project is. RPGs aren't "simple projects," which seems to be where your experience lies. Instead, they're generally pretty complex in balancing, system management, and general scope. They require a good deal of dev time because of all this.

    Despite your implications, it's not just about hardware capability. Sea of Stars is a 25 hour long RPG, meaning it has a great deal of content and thus potential ways it can mess up. As I already pointed out, you're lucky to get 10% of your sales from Mac users. Realistically you might get around 2% and then you'll have to deal with ongoing support requests. So we're looking at maybe around 2% of sales for a game that was in development for about 4 years before being launched. That's nothing. That's peanuts.

    That's not worth the time or money.
     
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  29. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I imagine most developers supporting macOS are doing so because they have a significant number of their devs on that platform and they're directly testing it that way. It's far less able to be justified when the majority are not on it and often don't know how to use it beyond the basics (I've barely touched my M1 Mac Mini).
     
  30. Neto_Kokku

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    It's not about affording a few Mac devices. Developers and QA will have to actually set aside work hours to use those devices. That's what actually costs money.

    To make things worse, Apple cares very little for backward compatibility and expects developers to update their apps/games regularly to keep up with their yearly OS upgrades. This means having to keep staff that's capable of updating the game around indefinitely if you want your game to keep selling over the years on a Mac, unlike consoles or Windows, reducing the net revenue over a log periods of time.

    Mac and Linux are considered platforms just like Switch, PlayStation and Xbox, the work for porting to them isn't that much different. Indie (and even larger) teams usually work on only one platform themselves and can't spare team members' working hours on dealing with other platforms' shenanigans. It's the publishers who usually hire 3rd party studios (like the one I work at) for porting duties or have internal porting teams themselves for that, and the publishers will make the call on which platforms to release on (or on which to release first) based on their sales projections.

    Also, just because the game isn't on a platform now doesn't mean it will never be. If it sells well enough, a port for a smaller platform can be justified. For example, if a game sells 5 million copies on Steam and Mac sales are estimated at 2% of that, that's an extra 100k sales, which makes it worthwhile the costs. The costs for porting is fixed, so whether or not a port is viable depends on projected sales.

    So, TL/DR:
    It's because Mac sales are a fraction of Windows sales and releasing a game on Mac still takes time, and time costs money.
     
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  31. Ryiah

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    Updates that often require updating the game engine which will often introduce new bugs (often for every platform not just macOS) you now have to figure out and fix. If you're even able to fix the bug. Sometimes you just have to workaround it and hope that nothing else breaks in the process.
     
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  32. tsibiski

    tsibiski

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    Reasons my game isn't on a Mac and may not ever be:

    1) I don't own a Mac and would prefer not to buy one - at least until the game is released and seems popular enough on PC. (Mac's are required to develop on a Mac. You cannot make the game for Macs without a Mac).

    2) My game is relatively simple, and I tried running it on my work Macbook (From last job. I don't have it anymore). The game was entirely broken on the Mac. So it doesn't take a lot of complexity for a game to need major edits to run on a Mac. I realize your game might have worked fine on both platforms, but I am just saying that is not always going to be the case.

    3) Close to no one buys a Mac to play games. My work Macbook was a top of the line, 3k+ model (I am a programmer for my day job; not just my hobby of making my game). It still struggled to play the simplest of games due to its thermals. The hardware was definitely capable of playing less graphics intensive games, but it heats up so incredibly fast that the laptop could not sit on your lap. It then thermal throttled really quickly and could not handle the heat that this load generated. I have the same problem with my personal Surface Book, which is basically aping the design philosophies of a Mac -> It can play a lot of games, but it thermal throttles relatively quickly, making it not great if you plan on playing the game for longer than 10 minutes.

    4) As popular as Mac's are, they still are an INCREDIBLY SMALL percentage of the total laptop/computer market. If you make a game, logic suggests you focus on the largest potential market first (Windows PC's), and maybe focus on that only if you lack the resources to expand into other OS's and consoles.
     
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  33. bewox

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    Thanks for the info. It's actually also my point that this can't be as simply as affording mac device for a fairly big developer.
    Okay, didn't know that porting game to Mac will be not much different to other platform like console. Thought it would be easier based on my experiences of making simple Unity project for company presentation & e-learning stuff.
    I even thought that 3rd party only used for porting to consoles, not mac or linux.
    Anyway, the fact about tiny portion of Mac users on Steam really clearing up my views about why it's not worth to port to Mac in most situation.


    Thanks for sharing your own experiences man.
    Honestly i never thought the portion of Mac users on steam are so tiny. I mean i know Mac not actually for gamers but 2 percent is crazy. lol
     
  34. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    Oh yeah, that's the thing I dislike the most when using a "black box" engine like Unity: any sort of platform compatibility bug fixes require upgrading to a new version.

    You can get away with minor upgrades (which still risk introducing new bugs) for up to two years if you released using LTS or about three to four months if it was a TECH release, but after that time you'll have to make a bigger engine upgrade which is always a gamble: things might turn out great (everything works right away and maybe it even runs faster) just as much as they can turn awful (your game is broken, features it relied on were removed/replaced/overhauled, it runs slower).

    This is the reality for mobile games as well, since both Google and Apple regularly increase the minimum platform SDK version required for app updates. On all consoles game updates can use the same SDK version the base game was released with and on Windows it's less likely for a game to break on new OS versions/updates (there are people still releasing Windows-only games using Unity 5 and such even today, for example). Mac's SDK update cycle is similar to mobile, albeit not as fast.

    This is one the (many) reasons why you don't see many non-freemium mobile games, outside from some very dedicated devs or indie games that sell so much they are guaranteed a nice profit from a mobile port like Stardew Valley, Dead Cells and Vampire Survivors, even if these games are likely to become unplayable and unpurchaseable on newer devices after a couple years without updates.
     
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  35. Marble

    Marble

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    The problem starts with Apple, whose technological and cultural priorities have never aligned with those of Steam gamers. Apple Silicon is very capable hardware (a world apart from the space-constrained Intel toasters mentioned in the post(s) above), but its designers have little interest in the kind of power-hungry GPU superiority that drives the ideal at game studios. The other issue is that, culturally, Apple conceives of games as light, family-friendly entertainment – a stance consistent with its 2000's+ brand image of simplicity, elegance, and wholesome sophistication.

    The reaction among the kind of gamers who play on Steam and developers who build PC games is predictable, understandable, knee-jerk hostility for Apple. The mutual distaste produces a toxic loop that results in the poor market presence identified above. Of course, the stats about where the money is on mobile, where Apple's and gamers' ideals more closely align, is different.

    I've released a couple of games that never saw much success in general, but releasing them for macOS and Windows in tandem was never that hard. I haven't noticed a disproportionate amount of Mac users needing support, for example, nor run into any problems uniquely related to macOS APIs. One of them was released with Unity 5, hasn't been upgraded, and is still going strong.

    In other words, I think the technological hurdles are effectively negligible, but the cultural hurdles that distort the market are insurmountable unless their origin – Apple's approach – changes.
     
  36. impheris

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    xD Lol "expert game engine users" hahaha, making rants does not make them experts, while there are maybe 3 or 4 mid/advance users here, most of the users came here to rant for things they don't even understand, i have not seen any "expert" writing here for many weeks now xD..... man... these guys XD

    @bewox about your questions and statements, are pretty legit to me, i can see you also understood the points that others expressed.


    This is nothing new, in fact is pretty common. (an very popular game made with unity)
     
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  37. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    You are self proclaimed to not be a coder and do this literally all the time.
     
  38. impheris

    impheris

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    if you say so...

    Anyway, back to the topic:
    that is a very good point... Also, i was able to play many games on mac some years ago and i don't remember having any problem with it, like bugs or something like that (in fact, i remember duke nukem was better on mac), LEt me add this i think these recent years apple has been changing for worse in almost all aspects including gaming industry IMO
     
  39. LeonhardP

    LeonhardP

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    There's no reason for this sort of hostility @MadeFromPolygons. Please keep it respectful.

     
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  40. Taro_FFG

    Taro_FFG

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    Without trying to speak for the developer there in question, 1.8% of 1M (1.8% is the Steam user base as listed above) is 18k. Linux and Mac users are typically under-represented in indie game audiences.

    You can barely buy a couple of macs for this money given their insane prices so as a smaller indie dev (1M dev budget is a small team), if you are not making multiple times ROI you are almost guaranteed to loose money on a mac port.
    Factor in the opportunity cost and it becomes very clear why practically no one does it.

    Besides doing mac exports mac devices are inferior for game dev, typically worse hardware for a lot more money and compatibility issues with development software (mac is ARM these days, most software is not ARM).
     
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  41. And then we haven't mentioned that it's literarily garbage hardware for that sky-high prices. I had three MBPro because of my then day-time job. The first lost its screen, it peeled off. The second had the infamous butterfly keyboard... first it just fired 10 times when I hit "M", then it was random for any key, sometimes didn't fire at all. Good time to be a software developer with the keyboard of the deepest, darkest chaotic hell-god. And finally the thirds one is just super-heating, but works (well... slight exaggeration) okay.
    I would never ever, ever buy an Apple product for my own money. Ever.
     
  42. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
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    20,710
    Apple's budget tier tablet is a solid device. I bought one recently from Walmart (linked below) for $280. I've yet to have an Android device with the same price point that came anywhere near the performance of this thing. But my Mac Mini even based off of the M1 is definitely overpriced junk.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/2021-Apple-10-2-inch-iPad-Wi-Fi-64GB-Space-Gray-9th-Generation/483978365
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  43. tsibiski

    tsibiski

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    I can admit Apple makes some very solid devices. Their tablets and phones are some of the best on the market. And while part of the reason I won't buy Apple is that a lot of their devices are about 2-4x more expensive than a similarly-powerful Windows alternative, my main reason for never purchasing anything made from Apple is their ethics.

    They are, in my opinion, the most unethical company on the planet. They are extremely anti-consumer. Their attempts to sabotage people modifying or repairing their own products was truly awful. The thing that sealed the deal for me was that one of their iPhone models was programmed to brick itself if someone had a 3rd party repair shop replace the screen or touch button. Even if it was from another legit Apple product that was maybe being used for parts. It would programmatically recognize that the part information was not a match for this individual device and permanently brick the phone.

    They finally, after years of grueling pushback, recently accepted right to repair. Although I wonder if there are ultimately nefarious or poison pill reasons that will ultimately benefit them in the long run at the expense of the consumers.

    I also dislike them for more reasons, like making it as difficult as possible to develop apps for them, though I understand that is due to the control over the ecosystem that they have; but I just don't like it.

    They steal everyone else's ideas, then proclaim that they've innovated and use it to rocket their sales even further. Unfortunately, it's smart as they let other's innovate, but they then copy it and make it better, and pretend that they are the first to do it. Since the previous implementations didn't make it to the mainstream, most people believe they came up with the concept.

    Perhaps the single worst thing Apple does -> They use slave labor in China and hide behind the fact that a fully Chinese company is the broker between Apple and their labor as a layer of obfuscation around their culpability in the acts. Other companies do this do, and if I find out that they do, I don't buy from them.
     
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  44. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I think you might've forgotten about facebook.

    Though, yes, apple does give plenty of reasons not to support them.
     
  45. tsibiski

    tsibiski

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    I didn't forget them. They are up there near Apple on my list.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  46. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    Until the mid 2010s so Macbooks were lauded for lasting much longer than PCs, both in terms of specs and reliability, which was often used as an argument to justify their higher prices. But after after that each new model was more and more flimsy. Now they can't be upgraded at all (SSD is soldered, RAM is part of the CPU) and can barely be repaired anymore (even the screens are serial-matched to the motherboard).

    Yeah, the iPads are like an anomaly in Apple's hardware lineup: reasonably priced while delivering great specs. Maybe it's because the tablet market never really took off to the heights they expected and raising the margins could kill it. Tablets also likely have better yields compared to phones due to their sheer sizes.
     
  47. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    To say nothing of the disaster that became of their use of butterfly switches on their keyboards they started doing (and thankfully stopped doing) a long while back. The last thing you want in a laptop that is a nightmare to service already is a completely flimsy keyboard mechanism.
     
  48. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    You need more than the devices. If you release on two platforms, you need to double your QA team no matter what percentage of buyers you're gaining.

    You also have to take into account your studio's reputation. A bug that happens on 2% of users is still going to look bad to everybody when shared on social media.

    And even if you succeed and released a stable product on both Windows and Mac, you're still one OS update away from your game not working or being banned from one platform. Apple being gamer unfriendly and their users the least tech literate, saving your reputation would be an up hill battle.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2023
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  49. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    That's not an issue. All that stuff is automated as soon as your studio takes off.

    Even switching build platforms isn't time consuming as you should have multiple instances of the project for each one.
     
  50. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

    Moderator

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    Not really. With very rare exception, one project is all that is needed. And unless you are testing something specific, you shouldn't need to switch platforms, if you use a build server (or service). Even if you are small studio, if you are releasing on more than one platform, you should use a build server. It is well worth it for the time savings alone.
     
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