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Why Is No Man's Sky Getting SO MUCH HATE?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aiursrage2k, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    @Ryiah

    Because he felt that shared experience was the core of the game like the message in darksouls?
    I think it's all about the conjunction of two desire:
    -player really wanted to see multiplayer
    -dev really wanted to highlight their shared online features (that are describe day one)
    One is being mistake for another? Why people didn't focus more on the explanation of shared universe instead of multiplayer?

    Because the player that keeps playing have the exact experience he describe 3 years ago, people name stuff to signal presence, opportunity and gather to decipher things, they signal monolith, they signal jackpot planet, they signal straneg stuff and organize meet up on planet to look at the lore. It's multiplayer like FEZ was multiplayer or any ARG, a community that look at stuff together, expect he clearly didn't call that multiplayer to avoid confusion, he explain what it was. The explanation was there.

    I have watch almost ALL original video in chronology since the beginning. I replace them in context (constant asking and constant shutting down) and see the crack appearing (he did say thing he retract later).
    Second hand video that cherry pick stuff I have seen them, it's harder to highlight video like I can with text so I'm at loss because that's pushing on me huge stuff. I don't care enough, I'm just trap in arguing in circle because I'm stupid :D


    Addressing this video I will not defend it, I will provide context as I understand it, the first part he is not saying there is multiplayer, the journalist says it in the first segment, he clarify later, and maybe at that moment shared experience (which semantically IS a kind of multiplayer) was okay in his mind as multiplayer but it didn't took long before he shift it to darksouls and name stuff. Colbert is 2015 I think after being asked constantly they start considering it, they are the vaguest, they were vague also about NPC which happen to be in the game finally because they were able to make it https://www.reddit.com/r/NoMansSkyT...there_are_no_npc_characters_who_have_we_been/. The thing is in the game you can SEE other player through the naming of stuff. If you let those interview unravel he say that (darksouls!) instead people focus on the only snippet that bring him down. The actual model of the player is in the file, so it was cut for many reason (maybe because the game shift visual and it was not fitting anymore and problem of implementation). It's a game player has send DEATH THREATS because of delay, even though the dev said it was not ready .... And that's what boggle my minds. Impatience killed the cat essentially.
     
  2. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    This thread is still going?

    It boils down to this
    • Plenty of people thought they were getting multiplayer and other awesome features
    • Those features were not there
    • People got upset because they brought a game that didn't have the features they expected
    We can argue till the cows come home about who said what. Point is, the players thought they were getting a different game. By definition this means Hello Games failed to effectively communicate what features their game had.
     
  3. angrypenguin

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    If it's fun, why not? And if it's not fun, why pop in here to tell us so? :p

    For sure. My point was only that there's a difference between being a poor communicator and being a liar.

    That said, I realise that with the Internet being the Internet there are always going to be people who either don't understand the distinction or would rather be more dramatic anyway.
     
  4. Billy4184

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    @neoshaman I don't think there was ever any real doubt that No Man's Sky was not going to be a `multiplayer game'. The question is whether or not you could run into someone. Multiplayer is not simply the ability to run into someone. My understanding of Murray's comments was that the game was not designed in any way to be multiplayer, but for one reason or another, whether it was just a pair of floating arms or a full avatar, it would be possible to detect the other player, but chances of it were slim due to the size of the universe.

    Anyway, I don't care about it, I still haven't played the game but it's still something unique and a great achievement, and I don't particularly think Murray was trying to be deceptive. If I had to guess they planned multiplayer and couldn't add it in time, but since no one was likely to run into eachother decided to be vague about it until it was done in some update or other. Or they cut it altogether and wanted to leave it an open question - worse things have been done under the sun.
     
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  5. angrypenguin

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    I've said it before, but I'll say it again: that comment about "running into each other" was weird from the start, because people "running into each other" is utterly irrelevant. People deliberately meet up in games all the darn time.

    The first thing that my wife and I did in Guild Wars 2 was figure out how to get both of our characters in the same place.
     
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  6. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    To me (as it seems that wasn't evident to anyone) I think it was always the case not "graphically" (as in meeting a physical representation) but conceptually in the naming and many bread crumb (signaling presence). I thought it was well explained (he use the message of darksouls repeatedly). But this something that didn't appeared anywhere in player's compilation, it wasn't picked by aggregator. So I don't know how he could have phrase that better, maybe if he had used "community features"?

    The whole confusion is about his vision of online feature around "player presence" that isn't "physical".

    Anyway I'm too touchy about anything procedural, This game should have been a champion of the framework lol, I can't work on something like it until I finished my current game :(
     
  7. ShilohGames

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    The developer literally said on TV that the game would be multiplayer and players would be able to see each other. Start at 5:41 in the following video for the developer talking about that:
     
  8. Martin_H

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    In DayZ it's half the game: "Oh, so you've respawned 8 kilometers south of here, better get going then, it's gonna be a long walk."

    Dark Souls is a game where you can summon other online players to help with your bossfights or where if you are in human form can be invaded and killed by other players. How is any Dark Souls mentioning not super confusing? That is an actual mutliplayer game where people can fight each other or fight together. Also even the Dark Souls messages have the potential to have more multiplayer interaction than naming a planet "Planet McPlanety Face #7". In Dark Souls you had hints like "invisible wall ahead" or "jump here" in front of almost every deep chasm. Players interacted and tried to get other players to do things, mostly to grief them. My understanding is that there is no meaningful interaction in naming stuff in NMS. It's not like there are super dangerous animals that are named "stay the F*** away from this, it almost killed me", right? Although the shared information aspect of surveying the entire procedural universe would actually have been kind of interesting if it had real ingame value. Like if many species were super dangerous and dying was punishing, there'd be a shared interest in sharing information about dangerous creatures.


    F***! Why did I get baited into replying to this thread again???
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
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  9. neginfinity

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    Because pointing out that someone may have wasted a month of their life discussing someone else's promises is fun too?
     
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  10. MV10

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    All I know is that we should get to work immediately to ensure the verb "squiz" enters the language.
     
  11. GarBenjamin

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    Get to work making an ultra low poly or ultra low res pixel art (either one to save dev time) multiplayer version of the game that players wanted. Strike while the iron is hot so to speak.
     
  12. Carve_Online

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    Again, the big difference is that he did not correct his misinformation. If you put out a ton of information, and you go on shows like Colbert and say something that you believe to be true at the time, then months and months before launch, he should have known those things were not going to make it into the game and been clear. And really that isn´t even in the case, with many things he was repeating the false information pretty much right up to launch. A single tweet 24 hours before launch, but 6 months after pre-orders started is not going to cut it.

    And again, he was the lead dev. Adding multiplayer to a game is no joke, especially when he mentioned looting other people´s stuff... he had to know 6 months ago that wasn´t going to make it, especially considering they delayed launch a few months just to get the garbage game out they did.
     
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  13. Kiwasi

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  14. angrypenguin

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    I've previously agreed with all of that stuff. I'll repeat again:
     
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  15. neoshaman

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    I have talk about it long and large, taking chronological context into account, do as you wish. I only see a dev confused at people asking
    I know it's a rhetorical question and you have your mind set, but

    All those planet call gravitano ball farm too or vortex cube heaven, etc ...

    The discussion is stupid because people keep moving goal post, did hey say no? YES but then it's about how much it's confusing THEREFORE he didn't just say no, so the definition of clearly is muddied, then it's about the merit of the game anyway which is not what the question was about anyway. It's just a matter of personal perception and feeling by that point. I put the chronological context already. Given we found proof of a player model, it's safe to say there was a plan at some point, plan that wasn't the original idea because they start by saying NO.



    @GarBenjamin is framing it the very right way, there is a problem of communication, the was fault in their communication, the details don't matter. But if we are arguing the details ...
     
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  16. astracat111

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    It's because it's $60.
     
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  17. harunahana

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    $60 garabage to be exact
     
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  18. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Except for me it was very well spent :cool: love the game:D
     
  19. Carve_Online

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    There is a difference between being a poor communicator and being a liar.

    Agree completely. The grey area of course is when the area between being a poor communicator and being a liar just so happens to have persuaded many people to spend $60 that goes into your pocket.

    I still put about 80% of the blame on consumers though. Even without any knowledge of game development and the obvious red flags many of us saw.. there is simply no reason EVER to pre-order a game that is coming from a developer who has never released a major game before. Buy it on day 2.

    I also think it says a lot that Steam had to add a comment about ´normal refund policies apply´ and one of the most frequent comments is ´thank god for steam refunds´..
     
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  20. astracat111

    astracat111

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    I think for $9.99 though I would have bought No Man's Sky and liked it. Just judging from the Let's Plays I've seen at least...Just might be me though.

    I agree, though, just waiting is best. I'll buy FF15 a week after it comes out, beat it in a short while, then sell it as a used game. If it gets terrible reviews, not buying it.
     
  21. Ryiah

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    Same, at least once the game received patches to support older processors and I was no longer really upset I couldn't play at the same time as my friends. I've spent over two hundred hours playing the game. That said I'm completely out of anything that could even remotely be considered gameplay and much of that was waiting for RNG to stop messing with me.

    Unfortunately a good deal of the necessary upgrades (warp drive upgrades, atlas passes past level one, etc) are entirely behind RNG walls. Some people received them immediately and others like myself didn't start getting them until very late.
     
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  22. Martin_H

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    That's pretty cool actually! Imho they should have focused more on such hand crafted "community puzzle" content for people to solve together, instead of the procedural animals.

    That seems like pretty bad gamedesign to me. 7DTD had similar problems, might even still have them.
     
  23. janpec

    janpec

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    Yeh agree, 80% of complaints are non rational becouse if you really think it trough even with multiplayer added and few other things that were promised along with a little better looking creatures that were on video the result would still be the same, gameplay that simply is not sustainable on longer range than 10 hours for majority of players. So no matter what you try to pick as missing from game, the gameplay structure would had to be changed in few significant steps to really bring the hate around. Obviously though with price at 10 bucks majority of complaints would be gone but thats another thing...
     
  24. harunahana

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    Wow 200 hundred hours I returned mine after 2. I'm glad too especially if RNG was involved. Sounds like a complete waste of time.
     
  25. astracat111

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    What gets me most about No Man's Sky is that it's not really that hard to implement a simple survival system also. Less planets, more difficulty would have been nice.

    I don't get how people didn't expect this would happen. The problem with open-world games is they end up having less hours than long story-heavy games. "I know, the solution to this problem of open-worlds is to have and even BIGGER open world!".

    Really? No wonder 90% of them went back.
     
  26. neoshaman

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    The game is more like a proof of concept, if they are smart they can turn it into a literal mod platform for space game. I think EVERYONE can come up with 10 ways to improve the game at literally no cost (in fact mod are doing it now). I just hope it open the flood for smart copy cat and kick start the genre. I hope for clone that mix it with star flight or star control 2 who had solved the same gameplay loops progression problem ages ago. Go on planet, collect resource, upgrade ship, collect clues that reveal story. It's the same game but in 2d.



    Minecraft disappointed people who has hi hope on the survival elements in the v1.0, which was receive on similar scope of deception from fan of that part, this has spawn the current highly popular survival genre who has extended on the harshness and crafting cycle. Though maybe they should have done an open dev like minecraft.

    More star control 2 because that's what no man sky could have been

     
  27. MV10

    MV10

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    I was a completely OCD-junkie for Star Con 2 (my username on Stardock's GalCon forums is still Spathi Discriminator) and I can't figure out why you keep mentioning it relating to No Man's Sky... ???
     
  28. neoshaman

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    It's no man sky 2d actually finished:

    - go on procedural planet to mine resources
    - upgrade your ships
    - dogfights
    - follow trail of clues that reveal a story
    - travel the galaxy
    - meat different alien race

    It's not infinite, but it's easy to see how no man's sky could learn from it, the gameplay is similar, it has better variety of ships, actual faction alien interaction, more interesting story diffuse in exploration, better feedback of the progression
     
  29. harunahana

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    No mans sky is definitely headed in the right direction if they make a number 2 and make it like they originally wanted it will be insanely popular and fun. I really hope they do too.
     
  30. neoshaman

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    If someone don't jump on the occasion to make a better game and steal the light.

    Though there is no current contender in view. Most game are too simulations oriented, I think there is a craving for action oriented arcade version of the genre, no man's sky being the bare bone prototype. Mass effect was also heavily inspired by star control 2, a blend of that with no man sky would win instantly.
     
  31. Ryiah

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    Yes, like Empyrion.

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/383120/

    Or Planet Nomads.

    https://www.planet-nomads.com/

    Or Limit Theory.

    http://ltheory.com/

    Yet from what I've read of reddit and reviews that's what a good portion of those interested in NMS wanted.
     
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  32. MV10

    MV10

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    Does NMS actually have a storyline? I didn't think it had that, which I'd consider a big difference.
     
  33. Ryiah

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    It has a story worth of Sean Murray. It's vague all the way to the end. :p
     
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  34. neoshaman

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    It had one, but that's also one that mimic the obscure existential scifi taste, not very mainstream, you might not get or like it. It's all about the lore (who are the geck, the korvax and vykeen what is the atlas what purpose serve the sentinel), it's also all base on the feeling of being insignificant in the face of infinity (that's why 18 quintillions is so important to the dev).


    also at 24:41

    I think there is many public that wait for specific space fantasy, you have the minecraft crowd, the simulation crowd, the space opera crowd, etc .... But I think the itch they wanted to scratch is space skyrim as a common denominator, the actual sense of adventure in a world populated with alien civilization and beautiful landscape.

    The other game you mention scratch different itch completely. They are more intimate and based around base building, it's not 3D star control 2.

    Now that's only an opinion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  35. yoonitee

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    From a technical standpoint, I don't see how it could be multiplayer...

    I mean if it generates everything procedurally on the fly. I was under the impression that the only thing sent to the servers was the names of things.

    If you mine a rock. Take off from the planet and then land in exactly the same place. Will that rock still have a hole in it? If so, it probably stores that information on your personal computer. Because why save it on the server as the chance of anyone landing in exactly the same place on an Earth-sized planet are minute. That would be a lot of useless data to store in the server. Even the chance of YOU finding exactly where you took off from on the planet is small without some sort of map.

    For it to be multiplayer it would have to pass that information to any other player who happened to be in exactly the same point in the Universe.

    On the other hand if you land on someone else's world it might just have saved the details about which rocks were mined and which animals killed to extinction etc.

    Another question. If it saves every rock you blasted a hole in. Does that data file on your computer just keep getting bigger and bigger the more you play? (Yeah, probably not that big a data file but still...)
     
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  36. harunahana

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    If it was multiplayer it would work like minecraft. Obviously it couldn't be multiplayer with everyone playing in there own universe.
     
  37. Ryiah

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    I thought about trying to verify that at some point but I always had trouble finding the same spot again. :p
     
  38. neoshaman

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    You don't have to fly, just walk away and come back, put your ship near it to have a marker. Fun stuff to try, do a big hole, get back to the ship and land into the hole, go very far away to have the whole chunk unload completely, come back.
     
  39. Martin_H

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  40. Ryiah

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    Some people have been calling him the next Molyneux. :p
     
  41. MV10

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    Random number seeds that are stored as they're "discovered" could easily accomplish this.

    Well... for a certain definition of "easily". :)
     
  42. angrypenguin

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    I wouldn't assume that the chunk with your ship in it would get unloaded, though, because that seems ripe for all kinds of problems.
    For the initial states of everything, yes, What @yoonitee is referring to is all of the stuff after that, and even what's in that post is only the tip of the iceberg.

    Lets say that behaviours are seeded too, so animals and such on the planet all start their behaviour cycle when you first arrive. What happens when a player arrives later? The game would have to somehow do a "fast-forward" simulation from the initial point to the current point, otherwise the players' planets will be out of sync. However, that means having recorded everything that the first player did on the planet that might have had an effect on the animal life, otherwise the fast forward results won't be in sync. And that's assuming a simple case of "one player arrives after another". What if both players have previously been to the same planet and done different things, and then arrive and land one after the other?

    There are plenty of potential solutions to these things, of course. The question is which ones are technically feasible and give a good experience?
     
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  43. neoshaman

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    In fact people have problem when they backtrack to their first planet, and it takes time for the server to reload their named discovery, there was a freaked out when it happen because they thought the game deleted stuff after a list of 128 names (the local memory).

    Also one player tried to map out around the center of the euclid galaxy to have create direction, so he found a star he call the "north star", much later the name had disappeared ... he wasn't the first the name the planet lol so it reverted to the name someone else put.

    So even for the static contents is already difficult to keep all player in sync. So modification and all ?

    I don't think the game work like that and I don't think I have ever seen a game working like that, that would be amazing if true because it would solve a lot of stuff the game is currently have.

    Though you can hash behavior with a schedule formula like in skyrim, but it wouldn't go much farther than the tile if it is generated procedurally (basically generate the next point base on contained loop or wander formula and the time, something like pos=randomOrigin+sin(t)), unless someone found a way to synchronize unique character traveling across multiple tile, such as at any given moment, the tile know what objects is currently traversing independently of history and other tile.
     
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  44. Ryiah

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    You'll have even more problems once you reach the center of the galaxy.

    You're placed in a completely different galaxy with no way back as far as I'm aware.
     
  45. RichAllen2016

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    It's probably butthurt Xbox fanboys getting their pants in a bunch about Sony zealots crowing about NMS being exclusive to their console.

    I'm an Xbox fan, but I don't give a hoot about NMS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  46. Ryiah

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    Just wait till Skyrim Remastered is released and they discover the XBox One supports mods but the PS4 doesn't. :p
     
  47. neoshaman

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    The game precisely tweaked with mod by someone is looking truly spectacular!

     
  48. arkon

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    I'm in two minds as to weather to buy this game or not. I like the idea of the game but so much hate towards it. BUT then there is a ton of good said about it too, plus Jeff Minter of LLamasoft seems to play it every day if his twitter feed is anything to go on. He seems to like it,
     
  49. Ryiah

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    You could always wait till the holiday sales start up. I'd be surprised if it didn't get discounted.
     
  50. neginfinity

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    Haven't seen it getting a discount even once. But yeah, with -50% or with -75% I'd probably grab it.