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Why Is No Man's Sky Getting SO MUCH HATE?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aiursrage2k, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    The game has sold 700k units on steam alone and probably the same on ps4. But no man's sky was made by a 15 man indie dev team and look at the unrealistic expectations that gamers actually had (even the gaming press dont seem to get it).

     
  2. Acissathar

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    From what I've gathered it boils down to these two points:
    1. Murray pulled a Molyneux and described the game as having features it didn't, or that were significantly scaled back for release.
    2. The game is nothing special, all you do is gather materials so you can go to other similar planets to gather more materials. It's just a basic exploration / survival game but "with space."
     
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  3. iamthwee

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    Whilst I get the mammoth undertaking no man's sky was for such a small team, and UK based too, it's just shows procedural gameplay and generation doesn't work.

    Compare that to the other indie games out there that rank 95%+ on steam, such as playdead's inside. It's on polar ends of the spectrum compared to no man's sky.

    On the plus side NMS must have made an absolute fortune.
     
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  4. nickyoso1

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    There is a list somewhere on reddit that contains all the things that where said to be in the game but aren't.
    But after playing it for a bit, it is basically a planet generator with very minimal gameplay.
     
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  5. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Why is everyone talking about all the hate NMS is getting?
     
  6. Murgilod

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    Aside from the Molyneux levels of over-promise, under deliver, the game just isn't very good.
     
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  7. passerbycmc

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    It built a huge hype train, and than failed to deliver on it. That is the only reason why it is getting so much hate. If it didnt have the hype train people would just consider it a competent open world survival game.
     
  8. iamthwee

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    Procedural gameplay and graphics... sounds great in theory, until you put it into practice, kinda like communism and trump running for presidency... heh.
     
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  9. nickyoso1

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    The hype train was definitely to big, they also realized that. A few days before release they where trying to reduce expectations a bit.
     
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  10. KnightsHouseGames

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    People hate it because the Internet made up it's mind about this game before it came out

    It's basically Minecraft with space ships and more interesting graphics. On paper, it should have been a smash hit.

    The fact that people love minecraft and hate this game just points out that weird internet bias. People will find a hundred excuses, but to me, it is exactly what I was expecting it to be.
     
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  11. Master-Frog

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    Same reason this thread is gonna get so much attention... today's gamers love drama and negativity.
     
  12. N1warhead

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    @KnightsHouseGames perhaps because we know what the outcome is being indies our selves lol. Everything looks good on paper. Everything sounds great when you talk about it, but in reality procedural is just that, procedural.

    I in fact hate linear games that AAA companies do today, but at the same time, there's a such thing as too much non-linear to where there's absolutely no point unless there's in fact something for you to do that changes the outcome of the entire galaxy or whatever it is. E.G. Big Galactic Warfare conquer planets in real time - okay that might work. But again, that's just an idea and on paper sounds good.
     
  13. Ryiah

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    There are three more points to consider:
    1. Hello Games is very much an indie company. No Man's Sky is very much an indie game. Yet it was sold at AAA prices. Therefore people are judging it as a AAA title.
    2. At release the game was designed to require SSE4.1 and SSSE3. A decent number of the player base (myself included) are still running older processors like the Phenom II that still perform excellent but lack those instruction sets and that was causing the game to crash immediately at the logo with no message.
    3. A major memory leak was present at the launch of the game resulting in frequent dips to single digit frame rates and it was affecting just about everyone.
    Additionally someone compiled a list of missing features along with their source articles and videos.

    http://www.onemanslie.info/the-original-reddit-post/
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  14. Billy4184

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    From what I've read, the gameplay is simply boring. You have to keep 'mining' for stuff to keep you and your ship going (shooting rocks?), the alien characters are very much the same from one planet to another, dogfighting is boring/annoying, and the fun of naming things and trying to get bad words past the word filter gets old fast. Basically the gameplay seems to have very little variation and is not extremely well done. The best thing seems to be sightseeing but the fact that you're always running out of stuff and having to grind for it makes it hard to relax and enjoy the scenery and generally gets on peoples nerves.

    I haven't played it though so take this with a grain of salt.

    Now hopefully they can take that tech and use it to make the art for a better designed game.
     
  15. Ryiah

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    By the way speaking of unrealistic expectations did you know Hello Games didn't have any of their staff dedicated to quality assurance? They only brought in a team after the release of the game to the PC. The only reason the game functioned on the PlayStation 4 is because Sony handled the QA for the PS4 themselves.

    The reality is that Hello Games hyped up the game purposefully, sold it at a AAA tier price, and failed to deliver for that price.
     
  16. Kiwasi

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    Except they are charging the price of a 100 man AAA team. And they promised like an AAA team. And marketed it like an AAA game.

    I've said it a thousand times over. The market at large does not care how big your dev team is. They care about how much the game costs, and how good it is. Okay games that are cheap get by. Good games that are expensive get by. Okay games that are expensive get hammered.

    Judging by the marketing and hype No Man's Sky was meant to be a game changer. It was meant to introduce us to entirely new gaming experiences. But it didn't.
     
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  17. KnightsHouseGames

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    Soooo.....basically it's minecraft?
     
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  18. Billy4184

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    Something like that, except you don't have the fun of building, and you can't stop mining or you'll die.
     
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  19. Ryiah

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    Truthfully the game is targeting a niche more than a general audience. If you're the exploration type you'll love the game and most likely will clock a good number of hours. There are people on Reddit spending hours on each planet alone.
     
  20. RockoDyne

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    The single biggest flaw was that a developer was speaking publicly about the game they currently had, and not the game they would ship. Go through the reddit list of missing features and see how often the "confirmation" of something is immediately followed by a condition. Just imagine it's the final crunch and judge whether he seems confident enough in something that it should ship.

    I can only assume you have never played Minecraft for longer than two minutes.
     
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  21. TonyLi

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    I played it today and quite enjoyed it. But my expectations were in line with their original pitch, an open world planet exploration game. No hate from me.
     
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  22. Ryiah

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    Same. At least once they patched in alternative code for the instruction sets and fixed the memory leak.
     
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  23. Meltdown

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    Was it built with a custom engine?
     
  24. TonyLi

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    Yes.
     
  25. Perrydotto

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    This is just another reason why marketing is both very important and quite difficult - Your marketing needs to sell people on your game, but also sell them on your game in the right way. You gotta emphasize what's great and special about your game, but not promise too much. You want people to be curious about your game and share news about it, but you don't want them to get overhyped and expect things that aren't possible. Having the restraint to better not say more than you should seems to be tricky for a lot of people, and when you got someone like Sony pushing an indie studio's game, it's gotta be even more difficult.
     
  26. Quingu

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    Reasons for hate are simple: they vastly over-promised and under-delivered. They also left many issues vague and people filled them with their imagination ramping expectations sky-high. Murray wasn't 100% honest as well. He said for ex. that "players can meet but it's unlikely". As i turns out this is almost a fully single-player game.

    They basically sacrificed long-term integrity for short-term sales. This SHOULD catch some flack.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  27. LaneFox

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    These are the two main reasons. The entire main pitch demos to showcase the game used premade models and scripted scenes instead of actual gameplay while claiming to be pure procedurally generated ingame scenes. The delivered product was significantly weaker than what they advertised. Most people are finding that after a few planets everything starts to look the same, just slightly different, rather than finding any interestingly different flora/fauna on the long term. Despite the major scale back in promised features it also had some serious optimization issues on some hardware that should be well over minspec. There are some bugs where people are able to get marooned on a planet and never escape, forcing a complete restart - I think this was related to the unique pre-order ship not needing a hyperdrive, but when you trade it in for a new ship it doesn't give you one so you're boned.

    The list of reasons for the hate is really long.

    I haven't bothered to play it but most of my friends did and I never hear the end of their disappointment. They all do tend to log 20+ hours and generally the response seems to be that it's more like the basis of the game instead of actually being the completed game and the proc-gen stuff is pretty lackluster.
     
  28. RockoDyne

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    It's pretty funny how the most common compliment to the game is how it creates a zen experience, while the most design specific complaint is how the survival elements make the zen experience impossible.
     
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  29. Quingu

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    I remember when I started to play Minecraft. At first I was just running around and exploring. Then I started to look for things to do. Online I found a lot of guides on what to do next. In No Man's Sky there is NOTHING next. That's the main problem.

    They also charged 60 bucks for it like for a proper AAA game. Even Blizzard didn't dare to charge 60 for base Overwatch version.
     
  30. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Procedural isn't the problem.

    - Gameplay could be a little more varied - for example combat amounts to standing still and firing a beam at nothing important.

    - AAA price tag, AAA expectations. That is very, very fair. If you are a small team and wish to charge AAA prices without the usual actual content, then you will be judged by that standard.

    When you get this level of hate, it usually means you were quite successful. As it's mixed with equal amounts of praise. I just think the price is the problem really. Possibly hype too. In any case it's had it's moment, time for other games to hate on.
     
  31. Billy4184

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    @Ryiah I think it would be worth it for the exploration alone, except that apparently the need to constantly land to mine and look for basic resources is quite nerve-jangling after a while. Nearly every review I read mentioned this as being an annoying thing, and personally I hate it when games force you to micro-manage mundane parts of your existence. Coupled with the gameplay experience being virtually the same on each planet I can see why it gets a bit of flak.

    From what I can see, the game should have been all about pure and simple sightseeing and exploration fun, and not tried to be some 'survival' thing. They didn't need to require the player to stock up on some basic item in order to get them to visit a new planet, so making the player feel forced to do so actually works against the game experience.

    I think they made a mistake in trying to make the whole game procedural. I don't know why people don't try to make more games that use procedural as a platform rather than the whole deal. It's like people see procedural and just have to generate 9,000,000,000,000 galaxies of second-class content, rather than just one memorable solar system.

    Anyway, when the price comes down I'm going to actually play it, but I definitely can't justify $60 atm.
     
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  32. Ryiah

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    There is a crafting aspect to the game that you may want to do early on to travel further at a time (on the galaxy map) as well as reach different tiers of stars (there are four tiers and only one is reachable without warp reactors). Aside from that you only need to land for fuel.

    That being said both plutonium and thamium are very common and you can easily trade for the antimatter stage of creating warp fuel which largely eliminates the material gathering. You just need to have sufficient funds (its about 50,000 units per).

    I'm currently sitting on about fifteen million units which is enough to warp about three hundred times. Most of those units are from a combination of vortex cubes (some caves are loaded with them) and buying/selling dynamic resonators (some stations will pay double the normal price). Approximately two cubes or two resonator sales pays for one warp.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  33. AndreasU

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    Dont you build stuff in Minecraft though, block by block? It more seems like Minecraft without the good stuff. I dont think people play Minecraft to mine rocks but to build things with the stuff they mined.

    ---

    The game design is horrid. Walking speed is very slow, achievements take the screen hostage, control is frequently taken away when flying, tedious inventory management, hold button instead of click, every planet is functionally the same, interactions with aliens take away control for way too long etc.

    The prodedural terrain generation is neat, but it's the only thing the game has and apparently it's not enough for most gamers.
    I played it too, made it to the second planet then i got bored - "it's a game about shooting rocks".

    And of course the dubious marketing tactics where they were caught in flagranti with the multiplayer controversy.
    Two streamers meet, dont see each other, developer tweets "How wonderful! But our servers are overloaded.".

    People analyze the network data going out. Sift through the code. No netcode.
    The developer probably didnt expect that... After all, the story was that people could see each other but wouldnt because the universe is too large.
    Bam, internet S***storm.

    While they're at it they find out old code to script the E3 presentation. That apparently was explicitely said to be randomly generated, not scripted.
    S***storm intensifies.

    Btw, anyone think that the TPP would make it illegal to point out that the game doesnt have MP at all? Trade secret and all...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  34. neginfinity

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    Honestly, why do you care?

    Enjoy the game, or not. Media circus will end on its own in a few months.
     
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  35. neginfinity

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    I wouldn't jump to this kind of conclusion.

    There's huge amount of voxel minecraft clones that use procedural generation. We also have elite dangerous, original elite games, and IIRC Star Citizen was researching this kind of tech too.

    For all practical purposes, it works and has been used for quite some time too.
     
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  36. yoonitee

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    I think they kind of made dubious statements like "it is multiplayer but the chance of meeting another player is zero". In other words its NOT multiplayer.

    I estimate (using this) that the probability with a million players, each going on 100 planets each that two players will land on the same planet is about 0.5%. So maybe a bigger probability than they thought and not zero. But maybe they thought it worth the risk that no-one would ever meet!

    I'm using this game for tips of what not to do with my next game.

    From what I've seen NMS did not have a good story or like Minecraft the ability to build and make your own stories and adventures.

    Maybe if you could capture animals and put them in houses you built. Or ride them. Or dissect them. Or modify them. Or SOMETHING. Then it might be more fun. Not just mining rocks.

    "Here's an idea for a game! Basically, you collect rocks....."
    "Yes, that's the most exciting idea for a game everrrr!!!! Let's do it!"

    Maybe they should have made the planets weirder looking.

    Anyway, it looks nice. Well done for trying. But its too expensive!
     
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  37. Ryiah

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    Is that with or without collaboration between them though? Hello Games failed to take into consideration the determination of the Internet. Two players attempted to meet within hours of launch. They managed to reach the same location on the same planet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  38. AndreasU

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    And it's not even discussed that after the PS4 launch, the developers urged interested PC customers to not watch videos about the game, because of "spoilers".

    Then the claim that a patch would change the game completely with the PC launch.

    Of course, no review copies sent out.

    And apparently there had been a lot of video takedowns prior to PC launch.

    It sounds like they did everything they could to protect their day 1 sales.
    Not even the "big, evil publishers" are going so far as to request their fans to not watch videos before buying the game.
     
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  39. Martin_H

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    I like exploring things like the island of "The Forest", but somehow the impression I get from NMS videos is, that the game wouldn't scratch the same itch and it would feel more like clicking "randomize" on a planet generator. I think the "novelty vs variety" comparison made here describes the problem really well:




    Looks more like "Minecraft without most of the fun" to me. Is that what you meant?

    Afaik for GTA5 there was a 1 week video embargo where every video would be taken down, so that people had a chance to experience the story without spoilers. Not the worst idea ever imho. The game was really good, and I see no evidence of any sinister intentions behind it (for GTA5 that is - NMS hype was blatantly misleading).
     
  40. yoonitee

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    Fun fact: Did you know that "No Man's Sky" comes from the phrase "No man's land", a place that doesn't belong to anyone. Just in case people have only just realised this and are wondering why its called this! ;)

    I am watching this discussion carefully as I am working on a game with some similarities to NMS. (As is probably everyone else!) Although mine is a third person game featuring a magic genie. So I'm looking to see what people are saying are the things that could have made it better. So far I'm getting:

    Bigger dinosaurs
    Dune worms
    More construction
    More story
    More cutscenes
    Biomes
    More character interactions
    Better transitions from planets to space
    Basically, just being more of a game

    PS. Mine definitely won't be multiplayer and will probably be very bad! (Promise little, deliver much - first rule of PR!)
     
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  41. TwiiK

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    Are there gaming news sites out there with actual game developers or critical/rational people behind the wheel? I've been following the game for some years. For me there was no doubt from the start that the game wouldn't be able to deliver on half the things it promised. And when it was finally released suddenly everyone else saw it as well, but why is it so hard for normal gaming websites to see these things ahead of time? Is there not a single critical/rational person working in these companies or are they just paid to hype things to generate sales?

    As someone who's played games for over 2 decades, and also tried developing some, I feel like I have a very good grasp of what's possible in games and what's not. There was no doubt in my mind No Man's Sky from the start was hyped way out of proportion and that a lot of this hype stemmed directly from Murray himself, it was clearly apparent to me that Murray was just telling one lie after another in interviews.

    The biggest "dropped" feature and the biggest lie when it comes to No Man's Sky, in my opinion, was multiplayer. When it comes to Murray and talking about multiplayer in No Man's Sky I feel like he must have known he was lying from the start, if not he wasn't actually involved with making the game because no developer can be that clueless when it comes to how multiplayer in games work. Murray said on numerous occasions that it would be possible to meet other players, but the chances were really tiny, and that the only way for you to see what you looked like was if another player found you and described how you looked to yourself.

    Think about this from a developer's, or just a rational person's, point of view. You make a game that's inherently singleplayer in that most people will play the entire game entirely alone, but in the off chance that someone actually lands on the same planet at the same location as another player you make animated third person view models for the players AND you make the entire game an MMO requiring tons of servers to host all your players in one massive, synchronized universe, and tons of extra development hours to accomplish. You do this for something most of your players will never experience. On top of this you never actually show this mind blowing feature in trailers or gameplay, or talk more about how it affects the game. Can players interact? Trade? Talk with each other? Does this mean the game is actually an MMO? How will you finance what will surely be ludicrous server and bandwidth costs? It all sounds really, really dumb, doesn't it? Which is why it was never in the game to begin with.

    There was never a point during the development of the game that one player could see another player. If that was the case they would have had to have made actual player models and actual networking. Why would they do that if they KNEW it clashed with their vision for what they game would be? They knew from the start that this game would have "multiplayer" similar to the message system in Dark Souls. Something you can have in a "singleplayer" game which doesn't require tons of servers and synchronizing players etc. in the same game world. All you need for the multiplayer in a game like No Man's Sky is to generate the world for all your players with the same seed so everyone gets the same world and then have 1 global server which you can upload names to, and then stream those names into the instanced worlds of each player when they are at the appropriate coordinates. I doesn't really require any actual networking code.

    For me it was easy to see straight through all the hype, lies and bullshit and try to realistically envision what this game would be like in the end. What I envisioned was a generic survival game, and from watching some let's plays and reading some reviews that was apparently what we got, but shouldn't gaming websites protect normal gamers from snake oil salesmen like Murray and Molyneux? Why is it so hard for them to do just that? It feels like they are in on the scam.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  42. AndreasU

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    People enjoy reading articles that agree with/ reinforce their believes, so many media outlets are reporting in agreement to the popular opinion. Agree with and fuel the pre-release hype and once the game disappoints and there is blood in the water - bash it.
    Same principle most likely goes for many of the big Youtubers.

    In addition, some games have a very fanatical fanbase and if you run a critical article, you'll get a lot of rage in the comments and forums and cries for blood and boycott. Strangely, it seems to be mainly the big space games, NMS and Star Citizen.

    When the Escapist ran their Star Citizen article, it was probably not a pleasant time for the people working there.

    In addition, there seem to be corporate ties between many of the online gaming media outlets, so they tend to report in unison.
     
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  43. Player7

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    I never had much interest in the game from the start... the gfx style wasn't really my thing, but importantly the big killer was the procedural generation of planets and stuff... its the biggest killer because procedural just about anything is .. well S***.

    Because unless you've got Godlike programmers at the realm of making procedural gen interesting and detailed and most of all not stupid, its going to be naff.

    Kudos to Starcitizen for taking the right path with procgen planets etc and making it something that is ultimately artist driven right down to planet surface level.
     
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  44. AndreasU

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    The only new thing about procedural generation these days is that 3d terrain is generated in that manner. Otherwise it's nothing new and works well - rogue-likes are using procedurally generated levels since a long time (decades?), Minecraft and Rimworld do it to good effect etc.

    It's just that it was called random generation and players understood what it entails. And the developers didnt make a huge fuss about how many random seeds you could stuff into their generator.
     
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  45. jc_lvngstn

    jc_lvngstn

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    Yep. This is the point my brother and I both agree on. For what you get, the price is way too high.
    For the time we put into it before getting too bored to continue, it was worth about half the price.
     
  46. tiggus

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    They flat out lied that it was multiplayer, enough for me to boycott this one. There is a difference between hype and lying.
     
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  47. TheAlmightyPixel

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    I think people aren't exactly hating on NMS itself, instead the hate feels like it directed more towards the devs. Most negative reviews are about how something is missing or how something isn't the way it's supposed to be.

    The devs made promises they didn't keep (multiplayer), showed off features that didn't make it in the game (things like the animals interacting with each other, naming your ship, uploading your discoveries to a network for others to see, custom ships etc.), downgraded many things (space battles, npc interaction and such) and never denied rumours and questions, simply adding to the hype.

    The devs couldn't possibly meet the insane expectations of the players and the media, but they really brought it all upon themselves.

    To me this whole thing just sums up why it's important to be honest to your potential customers.
     
  48. yoonitee

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    On the bright side, I think its great indie games are getting this much publicity! All publicity is good publicity. I think its an exciting time to be indying. \:)/
     
  49. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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  50. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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