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Why Indies Fail [Trigger]

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by RJ-MacReady, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Edit: Did not mean to make this so divisive. In hindsight, this is a sensitive subject and had I actually ever published anything, chances are there would have been something that didn't turn out like I planned and I wouldn't want to talk about it, either, in such a flippant manner. Apologies.

    I once argued that games are not art, and I lost that argument. Now, I have been observing some games put up here on the community for feedback and review and also poking around Kongregate, revisiting old games, etc. I see so many games that just don't inspire much hoorah. Then I see others with 2 million plays and 4.5 star ratings. Naturally, my analytical mind will not stop trying to understand this phenomenon. Spurious correlations abound. So I googled today "Why Indies Fail" and this article popped up.

    Took me a moment to figure out that it was about musicians. I skip all the images and fluff and usually go straight for the main body of text. If you read the whole thing, it's amazing the parallels between indie musicians and indie game developers. Nobody knows what it is you really do, they don't care how hard it is but they judge your works against mainstream professional artists... so I thought I'd post it for broader consideration.

    Here's my question: if an Indie developer is an artist, why do so many conduct themselves like non-artists?

    For example, artists are obsessed with their art... but from what I can tell, most game developers spend hours a day playing games. Musicians play music. Artists draw, paint and animate. Game devs play Hearthstone.

    Here's the second part of the question: If a musician tried to go on stage dressed in his pajamas, or didn't bother to learn guitar chords because he didn't think listeners were smart enough to know what they were hearing, or just bought a generic drum machine instead of hiring a drummer, would that musician become a success or a failure?

    How is it different?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  2. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Indies fail because their games are often crappy looking and not much fun with zero marketing. I don't think that a game being arty has anything to do with success or not.

    Some indies try way too hard to be pretentious and arty, and it'll fall flat soon with yet even more emo poetry teen angst text overlaid on a turd.

    People should just focus on giving the player a really fun time.
     
  3. RockoDyne

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    So, is your main argument "why do game devs play games and not make them?" Ignoring the wide brush, I'll retort with whether authors don't read other novels and do directors not watch other movies?

    The straightforward answer is development isn't about mechanical mastery, where practice makes perfect. It's a cerebral exercise that happens over the course of years, and your understanding of design is going to have more impact to the end product than just how many lines of code you've written in your life.
     
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  4. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    If that's your take away, I'm not asking this right.

    If making games is an art form, why is the medium often treated with the same level of attention to detail as re-caulking the shower? As long as it works, devs seem to be happy. UI perfection, sound effect volume levels, timing, all those little things you could spend a hours on until they're perfect... go on ignored completely or neglected, in so many cases.

    It's not about being artsy, any more than generic pop is artsy. But it has to be technically sound, user friendly and appealing and developers need to sell themselves.

    Yet all I see is "how to program this", "how do I get this visual effect/framerate" and then the inevitable "gaming is dead because nobody downloaded my game."
     
  5. GarBenjamin

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    Maybe you think those things are being neglected. In reality they may have been worked on over and over again to get to the state they are in the released game.

    My Christmas game is probably a good example. I made it the same way I always make games. Iterations over and over again continually improving things a bit. Each time I added the next piece moving forward toward completion I refined some existing element a bit here and there.

    I redid the background of the game probably a dozen times. Many of those iterations are documented in the Christmas game thread. It looks like it does not because I put no effort into it or didn't give a crap about it... but because that is my limit as an artist (who is not one). Lol

    But just because I will never make a game that causes artists to say "wow it looks beautiful" and maybe never get past them saying "it looks okay"... that doesn't mean I am not going to make games. Instead I will spend time on the things I can do well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
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  6. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    That applies to all people, in all professions. Some people put more effort into details than others. Some of them obsess over stuff, some don't, which applies to artists, musicians, etc. No idea why you think game devs are special.

    --Eric
     
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  7. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    @Misterselmo - Where are your products? Since you registered in June of 2013, you've posted 1400 times and I see zero products in your sig. Between 0 and 1400, you may find answers to your questions.

    Excellence is a journey without end.

    Gigi
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
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  8. RockoDyne

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    Never mind the fact that most real perfectionists would say their stuff just looks alright, while anyone else would say it's spectacular.

    At the end of the day, shipping is a feature. A very important one that every project needs. Sometimes it's far more important to ship than to try to improve aspects that you could do until you die of poverty.
     
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  9. Gigiwoo

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    Advice to live by. (I see what you did there)
    Gigi
     
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  10. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    I have produced zero products, been learning, observing for about 6-8 months now, only recently have I been able to learn C# enough to be effective with it. I've had some serious issues with understanding the software development process which GarBenjamin has helped me to overcome. Mostly, just been soaking up everything I can about how this "game" works. I don't feel any further need to justify myself, although I'm curious why you feel I need to?

    Am I misunderstanding something about how all of this works?

    Do tell.
     
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  11. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Same as anything else, then? Excellent...
     
  12. christinanorwood

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    A game requires many different skills - coding, art, audio, actual game design, etc. Few individuals are good at all these things. Even a small group may lack expertise in some important area. Most other artists focus on what they're good at.
     
  13. RJ-MacReady

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    It requires coordination of multiple disciplines. It's not a one man show. A guitarist wants to play guitar, or he wants to be a one man show. Everybody can't be a one man show. So is it ego??
     
  14. LaneFox

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    I don't think the parallels you are drawing here really work. The question you should be looking for is "Why small and startup businesses fail". If you're an indie dev, especially if you're solo, you need to be a businessperson. Lacking that skill will result in failure.

    I don't think you need a published title in your portfolio to have valuable input to some conversation but it does add a lot of weight and credibility to your comments. On the other hand the people that sit around reading articles and debating on forums about game dev will never stack up to a published title worth of credibility.
     
  15. RJ-MacReady

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    Well to be fair, how much do I sit around telling you about my experiences selling games? How much advice do I dispense about what to do vs. How many questions I pose and ask? And how often when you tell me I've got it wrong do I correct myself? Kind of weird, seems petty to say, "you're not part of the club".

    Which is fine, if that's how you all feel. Kind of a joke, though.
     
  16. LaneFox

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    .... When did I put you in the latter group?

    Are we talking about the topic or taking stabs at each other?
     
  17. RJ-MacReady

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    I think the fact that everything I've ever done has either been deleted or was only for my personal enjoyment puts me in the latter group, at least for the time being. You tell me whose taking stabs at who. Then tell me what's motivating them to do so.
     
  18. LaneFox

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  19. Gigiwoo

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    I've enjoyed watching you learn and hopefully, by now, you've got some basics. Pick something REALLY TINY, like Christmas Crush or one of those lumberjack games. A single menu popup with 'start' and 'rate', a basic 2D environment with no changes of scene, and some simple player interaction (left/right, tap fast, etc). Create simple 2D clip art in Inkscape and add some juice! I look forward to it.

    You cannot fail if you do not try. Since the best lessons come from failures, I hope you fail soon.

    Gigi
     
  20. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Thanks for the motivation.
     
  21. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    No really, thank you all. This is the kind of insufferable condescension I have been looking for. As a social group, I expected more harsh judgement and competitiveness. Now I feel accepted among you.
     
  22. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    You'll never amount to anything, and my dad can beat up your dad.

    --Eric
     
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  23. Gigiwoo

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    "Luke, I am your father!"

    Gigi
     
  24. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    Because its easy to make a game, hard to make a good game. For example there are hundreds of games released each day on the app store, you release your game its dead and buried within a day.

    What you got to do i think is to build a community around your game before you release it.
     
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  25. RockoDyne

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    Add on to that marketing and distribution, probably even localization in some cases. Actually, I would be pretty curious to find out how often indie studios only find success outside of native speaking regions.
     
  26. angrypenguin

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    My business partner started in the music industry, and he often pointed out that there are striking parallels.

    Aside from my professional work I personally alternate between playing a lot of games and spending a lot of time making games. The people I work with, who are skilled and capable developers, are also all regular game players themselves. I don't think you'd get far as a developer without an appreciation for the work of others in your field. And I'm pretty sure that musicians spend plenty of time listening to the music of other musicians.

    But, I agree that time spent developing games is where we actually become better developers. Practice does make a huge difference. Sure we can learn from other people's work, but we can't make much out of that learning unless we're regularly applying, putting to practice the new concepts that we're picking up.

    To be fair, I've been registered far longer (and working in this field far longer again) and only have one game in my sig. I have no idea what MisterSelmo actually does, but if he's like me he could have many completed projects under his belt that aren't suitable for display in a forum sig.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  27. RJ-MacReady

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    I haven't mentioned what I do, so you're left to not worry about it.

    Or you could make baseless assumptions.

    You could assume I'm some dipshit talking big, who is all bluster but ultimately will amount to nothing. Which is cool.

    Or, you could assume I'm a capable computer programmer, game designer and digital artist and even dabbled in music who never took being a game developer seriously because I never thought it was a feasible career choice, until more recently with the advent of web-based distribution services like Steam and the Indie scene explosion and Retro Revolution. You could assume I've spent the last decade establishing myself in a different profession and starting a family amidst personal struggles. You could assume that I am finally in a position where I can actually choose my own career path and it makes sense to do so. I could be working on things in secret in the dead of night. I might not want to show anything to anyone until it passes my own personal standards.

    Or, you know, third option... do the grown up thing and post dumb S*** from old Adam Sandler movies.

    Ball's in your court.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  28. angrypenguin

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    For what it's worth I agree with the point @Gigiwoo was making, which is that you (that's a general you, not a personal you) should be finishing and releasing stuff. All I was getting at is that not having it in your sig doesn't mean you aren't doing it.
     
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  29. RJ-MacReady

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    And I will. Gigi is fine, he's helpful as always. I know he's playing the hard role and I appreciate it greatly.

    What I don't appreciate is these little jokers.
     
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  30. Hyphasol

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    Indies fail as much as published games fail. Of course the latter can pour immense capital in buying talent, marketing, etc, but that makes for the perceived difference between the numbers of respective "successes" entirely, if there is even one.
    It all boils down to the vision of the finished product, the ultimate game-dev skill.
    That's why people are telling you to complete projects, no matter how small, to develop that skill. The ability to evaluate the final product as opposed to the idea of it you had before making it. It works exactly like any other art. You put your idea into reality, and through your small and big mistakes you learn to make the end product more akin what you imagined. (In truth, you also make your imagination more akin to reality...)

    That said, i still believe the original idea is king. It's also called taste, which is knowing how well something is received by the majority of other people. If you want to be an artist or a wine-make of top-class you need to become extremely intimate with respectively either art or wine. Constantly search for the best, the most deep and complex art or wine, sample, study and indulge in it until it borders perversion. That's how art works, and games are art, as you admit yourself. However it's one that's created by multiple individuals from multiple fields. Hence the difficulty. Hence the failures and widespread mediocrity. It's not enough to be a talented individual. You need a talented team. And, as designer, the supreme taste to recognize true talent... in multiple fields!

    Just to make an example, i bet it took some time to draw and color your avatar. Definitely more than mine, which took me less than 3 minutes total, yet i would personally have serious qualms about hiring someone sporting your avatar as opposed to mine or others in this thread, no matter the references. The idea behind it might be cute, but the end product is rough and primitive. I find the end result distasteful. It doesn't matter whether you're an artist or not, or whether you made it yourself or not. It's the choice of what to display that matters, which factored in with the multidisciplinary nature of games reveals just why it is something so hard to do for someone without extended experience of games and game development alike.
     
  31. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    If you continue to focus on people instead of the topic I'll start locking your topics. You're not going to be needlessly argumentative on this forum. Focus on the discussion, not the person. Person is personal.
     
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  32. Teila

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    Oh, I have seen so many people fail at the game making industry because they were so busy playing games. That is one reason I rarely play anymore. I have someone who plays for me though and gives me research notes. :) Keeps me from getting sucked into another game.

    Indie gamers fail for the same reason most small businesses fail the first time, inexperience and lack of business skills. That doesn't mean they will fail at their next endeavor or maybe the next. I knew a business guy, my husband actually worked for him, who invented numerous things and created several businesses. They all failed. Then finally, he started an airbag company (as in automobile airbags) at just the right time, hired talented people and succeeded. He passed away years ago and his company was sold but his wife and son did very well. He died a successful man because he kept trying and finally gained the experience and skills to not only run a company but hire the right people to help him....Oh, and the right product at the right time.

    Game development companies are just another small business, whether one person or an entire team. They fail just like many writers, artists, inventors, retail business owners, restaurant owners, and so many others fail. Of course, failure can lead to success down the road depending on what you learn from your failures. Failing is not a bad thing if it teaches you something.

    We really should not spend so much time on failures but more time on the successes. We will all fail at some time in our life but that doesn't have to define who we are. As they say, better to try and fail then never try at all. ;)
     
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  33. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Well, had I ever thought of my avatar as a way of representing me, professionally, I would probably use a photo of my face, smiling. Never thought of it that way.
     
  34. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Can't see anything notably wrong with your avatar; it's a nice cartoon style.

    --Eric
     
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  35. Teila

    Teila

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    I like your avatar as well, Misterselmo.
     
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  36. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Wow <3
     
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  37. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    Ill give you an example. I look at appannie, and see 5 workout apps in the top 100, and say hey i know a girl that works at the gym -- easy money right. Then I do a bit of searching using appannie using the keyword "workout", then im look oh -- there are 600+ other apps already in the store. So not only would your app have be better then the rest but somehow gain enough momentum and PR to dethrone the other more established apps (that probably have thousand of 5 star ratings by now).
     
  38. RJ-MacReady

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    So the responses I'm getting vary. But, I like "it's a business".

    So where are the metrics?

    What's my chance of making money off an app, statistically? Most apps don't make money, right? There's no single predictor of success. We look at the successful games and observe those qualities and say "this is the key" but that's aka Survivor Bias. Luck and timing are the only true, reliable "keys" in a single business venture.

    What's my source? Experience. I made my living giving estimates and only got paid on the sales. You walk into each job, put your best foot forward and sometimes you're shown the door and sometimes they make you a plate for dinner.

    Same prices for everybody. Same neighborhood, same kind of people... two different results.

    Instead of trying to dethrone the king (suicide) why not set up a humble shop by the roadside? Instead of one #1 app have 10 #20's, right? More tries = more chances of winning. More shots, better chances of scoring, right? You don't have to be the king to live in a castle. :)

    You can start any business you want with a 4% chance of success. There's no 100%. You can make it 0%, though, with your actions and attitude. If you do everything right, you might be able to increase your chances quite a bit.

    But one game, dethrone the king... maybe that's why indies fail?
     
  39. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    Yeah that's possible you could keep doing until you "hit pay-dirt"

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rovio-overnight-angry-brids-success-51-failed-522587


    Look at ziggarut developer Milkstone Studios, i bet none of those were hits until ziggarut infact most of them look bad.
    http://www.milkstonestudios.com/
    http://store.steampowered.com/app/308420/

    Silver dollar games is legendary infamous on xblig but they eventually made One Finger Death Punch. The rest of there games are complete crap
    http://www.silverdollargames.com/


    The only thing is after a few failures you will get burned out.

    The other point I was making is most people dont do any research and just think they have a good idea not realizing that hundreds of other people already have done the same idea that have already done it. For example just making another half assed workout app -- 6 minute abs (with a hot girl) probably wouldnt be worth anything. Although...
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  40. RJ-MacReady

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    2% chance of a runaway success before everybody and their aunt went mobile. Now what is that down to?

    Why keep trying to be a star? Nobody tries to be a normal, boring businessman. Yet, from what I've seen, the boring businessmen end up with all the money.

    Furthermore, I keep seeing this odd dichotomy.

    We say... you can't succeed without a great game. Then we go... all the successful games are crap.

    @_@
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
  41. NeoTacticalGaming

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    Gonna insert a few pennies into this discussion....

    I am not a great programmer, in fact i know very little, but i know some. I am a great Terrain/Level Designer. That is my strong point. I have a team of 3. Myself a Modeler and Programmer. My programmer has a PHD. My Modeler Works in a steel Factory, I am a Disabled Vet. But the Three of us have a Studio in which we develop games. Our First Game Failed Miserably. Why? The lack of Research into the Genre, the Theme, the Audience. 3 Very important points of Interest in the Development Environment.

    This is by far the most important aspect of the Development Process. The research. (Fly Swat Face Palm)

    I find this to be a No-No When Developing. First, You create a negative image about you or your company with an image that all you do is make crap. (Crap is just a general term) Second, by continuing to make the same quality item you push consumers away. It is beneficial to create a product with ideal image that it was for the consumer, not for quick cash. The product must serve some purpose for the consumer.

    (This posts kinda fits the following)

    (Ex: An app that promises to save you money buy clicking the Walmart button which redirects you to an external site with coupons for other stores.) "This a great app! I can save money."

    Sure why not, now im gonna make 10 more apps with a best buy button, Safeway button, toys r us button, and those buttons will take me to the same site with coupons as the Walmart app. 100 people are gonna download that app, then tell everyone they know not to get anything else from you Because its not worth it.
    (From my own personal Product Research and Experience in Development)



    I believe that people inspire other people. It is not wrong to learn from others. Staring at textures for hours on end starts to take its toll on the development momentum....I then enthrall myself with other games to get my Dev Mojo flowing. I agree that some people cant separate themselves between work and play, but i also believe that great ideas literally come from other great ideas. ex: (Wow i love the way he did this, I bet if i did it this way i could get the same effect.) This is not stealing work this is inspiring new and creative methods. To Clarify, i figured out 2+2 is 4, will this guy just figured out 1+3 is 4....1+1+1+1 is 4, Different methods for the same result.

    In regards to the business aspect. 100% Agree.

    A great Idea > Put it on Paper > Expand that Idea> Research how to create the Idea > Establish your WorkFlow > Build It> Share it > Refine It > Release It.

    I give a big Thumbs Up to this Discussion!
     
  42. RJ-MacReady

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    To be fair, I never said make crap games.

    Think of the cake metaphor, where features are layers and the width of the slice is content, at least that's how it makes sense to me with games. So, it seems (from what I'm gathering, here) the best strategy is to make really tasty (but small, maybe even bite-sized) cakes and sell them. Make a variety of flavors, as well, because you want to make as many sales as you can to as many people as you can.

    Look ma, I think I got it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
  43. Gigiwoo

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    Ericcson calls this Deliberate Practice - which is practicing things ALMOST beyond our ability. Successful Indie's often follow the path of your business man - they tackle projects that are hard and yet, still finishable.

    Inexperienced developers and hobby-ests often suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect - they have no idea how hard a game project is, so they dive into something 100x too big for them. So, even though they might start out in Deliberate Practice, they end up demotivated, and quit. Few of those make it into Seth Goddin's "The Dip", and the number that come out of the Dip is practically zero.

    Gigi
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  44. Teila

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    So true. I think the best experience for any new developer is to join a team. Watch how it all unfolds. Experience failure as just one of several rather than trying to go it alone for a major project. You learn so much watching others and you learn what not to do. The problem is that everyone wants to make "their" game and isn't willing to put in a few months on another game, even if just to learn. I was in the unique position of being part of a failed game with a very large team. Unfortunately, even large teams bite off more than they can chew but I did learn a lot from the experience.
     
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  45. Gigiwoo

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    Your odds? They're so bad, that it's clear you should not try. I've seen stats that 90% of apps/games will not make back their costs, and you'll be lucky to make more than $100. There is hope though...

    The fact that this statement is incorrect, is what offers hope to all of us schlubs out here. The one metric tied directly to revenue (success?) is the number of previously published apps. This is well studied and frequently published - it's very robust data. In simple terms, a group with 8-10 products is more likely to have higher earnings PER APP than a group with 1 or 2.

    The take-away is, build MORE products, faster. Fail often, and early. The quickest path to excellence involves failure, and failure only happens if you finish. And of course, "Finish is a feature, a really important feature, your product must have it" - Joe Spolsky.

    Gigi
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  46. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Posts:
    1,718
    Try, fail, try, fail......... try, win?

    I usually go... overprepare, overprepare, overprepare... crush. But you seem to be saying I cannot prepare for this sort of challenge sufficiently to guarantee success.

    Which makes sense, if I saw a way to simply win this I wouldn't be on here begging for help, trying to soak up other people's advice and wisdom, throwing out my perspective to see if I'm just plain off base every day.

    No further questions for me, it's quite clear what I have to do. Thanks a million.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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