Where to Start? (Yes it's still just a dream) (MMORPGs)

Ok before replying:
- It can't be done
- Start with games like snake or android games
- Start with simple games
- Start simple
- Don't do big projects
etc...

I know these things, so don't post them please.


If someone where to want to eventually, after years of learning create an MMORPG, not alone of course, what course should they take?

Let's say I have no knowledge of coding, 3D Works, Animation, Rigging, Physics engines and more. What would I need to learn, and what tools would I need?


I have always had a dream of making an MMORPG, it's a specific one, large open-world type game. Player controlled.

Tools I have and will learn to use:

- All Adobe Products (Not really necessary for game making but still useful)
- Maya / 3DS Max / MODO / MARI / Blender
- Unity (ofc)

Now let's say I can get these, pre-made, and just edit them to my liking:
- 3D Assets including animated, statics, environmental and more
- Fluid renders like water, smoke, rain and more
- A lot of Static buildings, assets and more
- Characters, animals and more animated, rigged, modelled and textured

What else would I need? What skills do I need? What do I actually need to learn to start making a game from somewhere?

If I had 100,000$ to spend over the course of 2 years into this project who would I hire? A programmer?





Now my idea was to start learning while producing content that I can use in the game, by this I mean for example, if I know I will need a specific sky or particle system in the game, I learn by making it from tutorials, then save it for later use for the project and move on another asset I will need.


Any ideas?

PS:
- I couldn't find much on how to design open-worlds for maximum graphics / loading times, things like triangles or zones around characters loading different polygon counts seems to be the basic way
- How to actually start creating environments etc?

 

You could surely do it alone, or at most only 2 people (one programmer, one artist).

One of the most popular MMORPG's was created by two brothers:

The only people who say "You can't do it." are the same type of idiots who told every successful inventor and scientist in the past that they were crazy, "It can't be done", etc.

"Put a man on the moon? You're crazy!"
"A human flying? Hahahahahaha!"
"The Earth revolves around the Sun? What a moron..."
"Two young people in their garage will break the Guiness World Records with their MMORPG? ROFLMAO!!!! You need a full TEAM and HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS to do THAT!"
"You want to start a business competing with Steam? LOLOLOL"
"A game about building blocks? TROLOLOL idiot!"



To make a MMORPG, you need the same things it takes to make any video game at all.

Hard Work.
Time.

That is all you need.
These days, it is even easier than it was in the days of Runescape (shortly before 2001).
MMO's are a dime a dozen, and this includes indie or amateur MMO's.


What you will most likely want to do, is forsake the MMORPG part for now. That isn't to say forsake it entirely. Instead, it means put it away, tucked in the feature creep box, to be implemented after you finish a prototype and have achieved an alpha state (according to wikipedia, a project is at Alpha when all major features are complete and playable.) Then you can simply add multiplayer to the project. Since it is just a prototype, it is not ridiculous to add this part. The majority of game development is spent after the prototype but before the beta and release.

(reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development )

 

Thanks! But I was told that an MMORPG needs to have complex mechanics in terms of database structure, how things load etc in order to optimize them.

this is an open-world MMORPG, such as Eve Online (Nothing like it, since it's not in space, but same mechanics).

What engine should I use?
Unity? Unreal? Cry?

 

Doesn't matter the engine. Most of the things you will wont to do will take time and effort. There is no "out of the box" solution for it. Custom programs and interface.. etc.. etc.
No engine is going to just make it happen. The networking part alone will require a lot (some are easier to set up but that is setting up nothing to do with programming the security, and functionality of it).
Try each one and see... you have to make that decision not anyone else.

 

I meant for an open-world MMORPG which would be best?
Also I can just import any 3D Asset into any engine correct? That shouldn't matter right?

 

^ This

It really is up to you.

If you want to make "stock mmorpg 1millionth " then go use Hero engine... but I swear I won't be playing your game then.

 

If the MMO part is really that important - net code. For a start you should try to set up a scene - nothing fancy, just a bunch of cubes and maybe a Unity terrain - to which more than one player can logon to and build it so they can interact with each other. If you can't get that to work... well, then I got bad news for you.

 

The game I have in my mind is nothing like stock MMORPGs, I don't think it's been done before. It's a dream I know, but I have it all set up in my mind and I know exactly what it looks like and how the mechanics of it work.
It shouldn't be too complex.

I decided to go with Unreal Engine 4 if there really isn't a difference.

 

It is irrelevant what you do to start, or what you create to learn. The only thing that matters is learning.
Compare two people, one who learns by completing miniature games, and another who works on their MMORPG the entire time. The former create a snake game, then a atari remake, then another crappy game. What do they accomplish? Most of the same thing over and over, never going beyond the basics. Once is enough, but still not required. The latter starts with their MMORPG and does the basics. Then they start over the project to enhance it. Again to do it differently because they learned so much. Doing the same project multiple times until they have learned enough to keep the old stuff. This is efficient, as components can be reused or refined as you go, rather than starting over entirely.

More than likely, you will end up making a new project in Unity (about the same game) even after developing your MMORPG with the old project. As you learn, you can start over, but do things faster, reuse components, and apply what you know.

This means you should not worry about performance.

Even in normal video games, you shouldn't worry about performance until later on.
Optimization is a late stage part of game development, and is often not even required. (This is not to be confused with POLISH, which should always be applied but is not required for functionality but is required for quality, and is very often what is most ignored by indie developers who are crunching to meet deadlines or pushing for a release).

There are many, many skills in game development. Art is its own field entirely (Graphics, Audio), writing is another (Dialogue, Story), Game Design is vital, not to mention other important skills such as experience/knowledge in Usability, Interfaces. Each of these (and more) honestly can, by themselves, deserve a single person working on them exclusively. However, they are not required, and a single person can do multiple tasks (Very often in indie development, one person is indeed in charge of multiple aspects of development.) However you must remember, the more things you must do, the longer it takes to develop. If the programmer is also the game designer, then that is two jobs he must do. If he is also the writer, that is three. Once again though, these are not required.

Art is not required. Game Ideas can be stripped down to have lower art requirements (3D to 2D, 2D to Pixel Games, Pixel Games to Text Based Games, etc.) If you want examples, look at any popular text based game, older PC games, Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft, etc. Art is not required, and indie developers can often find STRENGTH in lower art requirements. (Ex. A pixel art game has a sort of charm and quality of art to it, despite its low skill barrier of entry. A non-artist can do good pixel art that is adequate for a video game. Likewise, imagine if that non-artist tried to make realistic 3D art. It would look awful, with no charm attached.)

So what IS required?

The only thing that is absolutely required for a video game, is programming. Art is not required, and can be a placeholder. Audio is not required. Story is not required. Design is not necessarily required (although it IS required for a GOOD video game). Usability and a good interface is not required (although it should be as well, and IS required for a GREAT video game).

You however cannot get away without programming. Event in an engine like Unity, even with tons of assets, if you don't understand the concept of programming, you will not make much of a video game. Side-scrollers are very popular for a reason. They are fast, they are cheap, they are easy, and they require significantly less programming than other video games (like a procedurally generated game). Think Super Meat Boy vs The Sims or Civilization.

Resources that will help you code, or a team member that will code.

However, if you have limited to no skills in game development, and the skills you do have are not experienced enough to produce quality, then how can you expect someone to program YOUR GAME for YOU, when you are providing nothing more than the idea and most likely an inexperienced design?

You need to learn to program if you want to see your dream come true.

Even if you form a team eventually and go to a different type of skill, your knowledge in programming will help you become a better team member. Whose game ideas or game designs are better? An artist who has no idea what it means to program, or someone who knows how difficult or easy a feature will be? The more experience you have in all areas, the better team member you will be, and IMO that "little bit of experience" in each area is VITAL to be a good team lead.

Those are great tools, whichever you choose to use.
Now, I want you to consider this: Just because you HAVE to learn to program, doesn't mean you can't pursue your dream and talents in game art.

Give yourself a life goal to finish your dream game. Make this life goal very long, then double it.
I used to know absolutely nothing about video games. In 2009, I decided to pursue my dream in making a video game. The result? 2 years of learning video game art and working on a system to produce high quality 2D artwork, and I achieved just that. Something that I, as a non-artist, am very proud of. The game was ultimately paused and the project currently being completed is pixel art, with many of these skills unused, but those 2 years were not wasted as it taught me a lot about game dev and will assist me when I unpause my dream game.

After those 2 years of learning artwork, I consider myself more than competent to produce the game art I need to fulfill my dream. So that means in 2011, I began learning programming. Two years later, I could program anything I wanted. Literally. If I wanted to make a MMORPG, I could, and anything I'd need to learn (such as networking) would just require time. I am not intimidated by any project, because I know I can program anything I need or want.

Four years after having a dream, and I am fulfilling it. My life goal was to complete a video game by the time I was 30. I will complete my first game by the time I am 29, and it is a very big and complex project. Have I ever completed smaller projects? Yes, and sort of, but not really. Completing atari games taught me next to nothing. What taught me what I need to know, is working and learning...what I needed to know.

There are enough resources online and in books, and enough people with experience in online communities, to learn anything you can imagine or pass any problem no matter how difficult it seems to be.

Don't waste time editing them to your liking, unless it is quick work or a learning experience. If it's something you want to learn, then definitely do it. Editing other's work is a great way to learn and produce better quality stuff before learning to become a "real artist" or "professional artist" and create things yourself.

These would be perfect to have as placeholder art. It is very easy to take artwork and replace it with very similar art, unless you have some kind of crazy complex system (like Champions Online's models which can change shape and texture in insane ways).

I would buy books and courses.

I know it sounds like a plug, but the two C++ courses from Game Institute taught me the basics of programming, and that is where my foundation began. You can find a more indepth version of my story and the resources I used: HERE.

That is a great idea, and exactly what you should do. It is a great feeling to use content you created or edited in some way. When you have "your signature" on something, even if it's only altered to fit your game, it is still better than having untouched artwork. You will be making YOUR game with assets you are proud of, or assets you are not proud of but accept as placeholder.

Start making a video game.

The #1 way to see your game dream come true, is to begin serious work on it.

Even if you end up scrapping the entire project for something better, with a team you formed later on, this is a requirement to get that team.

People will not take you seriously until you have something to show. Once you have something to show, no matter how crappy, if it is a complete prototype which shows your ideas or your dream, if it required a lot of hard work and time to complete, then that attracts people. Serious people. People who think "This guy will actually make the video game. He won't flake. He knows what to do, or at least is willing to learn. I want to join him. He needs my [insert skill] and talents."

 

I'm not entirely sure as it's been a long time since I have dug into game engines (and I know nothing about Unreal, as it used to be inaccessible for people like me back when, and not something I needed) but did you know about Hero Engine?

I think it's called Hero Engine. It's the 3D engine made specifically FOR MMORPG's, with (at least from what I remember) a good deal for profits/cost with indies.

 

When designing the game or creating the idea, it is important to stay Practical and adopt a realistic approach.
Same goes for creating your "life goal" and giving yourself adequate time.

In 2009, I did not say "I will make a MMORPG, and it will be easy! I will do it in a year or two max!"

Instead, I said, "I do not know anything about programming, or art, or game development at all. I am just a gamer. However, I really like my dream and I am good at designing the idea. I am 24 years old, and I honestly want to make a video game by the time I am 30. Is that long enough? Hmm...6 years? Yea, that is long enough to learn and to make. It takes what, 2 years to make a video game? So that leaves 4 years to learn and master the skills required? I can do that easy."

I knew myself well at the time. I knew I was a fast learner, and read a lot about what it took to make video games. 4 years sounded like an adequate amount of time to learn what I needed. To make the video game? 2 years was enough to at worst make something playable and get a lot of the game done. I agreed that if by the time I was 30 it was mostly finished or I had a great alpha or amazing prototype, it would not matter if I hadn't released it yet. The point was to learn, start, then work to achieve the goal.

Although I am not making my dream game, my current project is a new dream of mine which came out of my dream (A Dream within a Dream within a Dream. GameCeption!) I have agreed when I started my current project, that by completing it I will fulfill my life goal. Which will be one year early ^_^

I also considered how much time I had free, my other priorities (my real job, my real career, etc.) I say "real" referring to my work mentoring underprivileged children which supplies (supplied) my income, pursuing my degree in psychology (which I was studying for at the time, and now have), and my career in Psychology. I balanced my other dreams, such as doing academic work (writing papers and doing research) on online activity, trolling, cognitive biases, and other subjects of interest.

I say of all this and talk about myself, because over 4 years ago, I knew nothing about game development. Absolutely nothing. No programming skills. No art skills. Nothing.

If I can do it, anyone can do it.

 

I know the Hero Engine and it seems like a way to make very simple MMORPGs, which there are thousands of.

What I want to create hasn't been done before and is nothing like other MMOs, so I don't think I'll be able to use it.

Thank you so much for the long answers and I am reading all of them repeatedly.


A few things I wanted to add:
- This game will be HD, I hate pixelated, 2D, or bad graphics, I don't care what I have to do to get graphics on the league of this game:

This is a Playstation game, nothing to do with what I want to create, just saying I want the graphics and models and textures, lighting, shaders and environment to match those graphics.


How will I achieve this with my limited art skills?
1. Hire an artist
2. I will be using HUNDREDS of models that I already have, buildings, grass, trees, characters. Like for example, shouldn't it be 10 times more easier to start with a pre-made human male Stock. And then edit him into your character rather than starting with cubes and spheres?
3. All the story and how the game works, audio work, scripting, gameplay etc will be done by me, because I already know exactly what I want it to be like


I know I have no coding knowledge, and I wasn't asking "How to make an MMO with no coding" since that is crazy, what I was asking is where do you recommend learning the programming I will actually need? I don't want to end up spending months on HTML5 and end up never needing it.

What will I need to learn that I can start learning today.


PS: I don't have a timeline, and it won't be just me. It will be at least me and 2 others, one of who has coding knowledge.

 

I linked to the resources, and edited the post to include a link to the "hERE".

Are you limited on monetary resources, or can you expend some? Game Institute is what taught me the basics in programming. IMO it's a great start.

www.GameInstitute.com

This guy is also very intelligent:

www.gamefromscratch.com

Specifically this article:

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/2011/08/04/I-want-to-be-a-game-developer.aspx

 

I currently am trying my hand at internet marketing, so if it takes off a little more I will have money, however I want to spend it wisely.

I will check out those links and what you have posted, trying to get some more income. But to be honest the first few grand I get are going into building a PC.

 

If you made up your mind with using unreal I would suggest you take your questions there and ask about what you need to do. Reason being people will tell you how to do it with Unity since Unity forums. Different processes and way of doing things.
If you use Unity, I would suggest looking into USA for character customization.

 

If you don't want to spend any income because you are limited, then I'd suggest not spending any at all.

I have spent thousands of dollars (somewhere between $5000 to $10,000) over time on only god knows what. In the end, most of what I used to learn was entirely free. At most, a few used books from amazon- only one of which I read. GameInstitute (as of a few days ago) was only $50, and books are around $6-$40.

The majority of that money will be used in my original dream game (almost entirely art assets and software for those assets) but I wasted a lot of money on books I never read, videos I never watched, resources I never used. I was also scammed by 3DBUZZ, and bought a lifetime subscription to a 3D game art service I will probably never use, lol.

The BEST money I spent, excluding all 2D things (since your game is 3D) was with MIXAMO (animations, cheap, and such high quality) and the resources I linked. Everything else I spent money on was for my 2D, which would be of no interest to you. If you have a budget, I cannot recommend Mixamo enough. Talk about amazing quality for dirt cheap pricing.

 

Making an MMO as a solo developer/very small team is sort-of possible - you just need to be realistic.

Realm of the Mad God is a nice example of what is achievable with a tiny indie team. It's got all the core features of a bigger MMO - items, levelling, dungeons, and lots of players - but it's a Flash game, with lo-fi 2D graphics and it doesn't have huge amounts of content. But it's surprisingly good fun.

(If you're serious about making a triple-A MMO, then forget about learning all the details of game development, and start figuring out ways to acquire the 10-100 million dollars that you'll need pay for the team and other resources required to make the game...)

 

bluescrn you are terribly wrong, I agree with the rest of the posts, and I think with a library of assets and more it can be done.

 

Forget about hiring an artist, that's the last thing you should care about. Just use dummy graphics in the beginning, do the basics, network code and so on. That's it. After you've done this in the next 2 years and still on track you can focus on some artwork.