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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mountainstream, Jun 30, 2019.
We can look at Luxembourg if you want, there 40k is piss poor
I do understand that, but 40k is not a good salary. It's average if you look over the entire population (in my country granted) and its entry level if you look at most higher educations.
Or we could look at the real world, where the majority population lives. India, China, Brazil, USA, Russia.... not tiny pockets of wealth hidden in europe.
Nobody else here is from Sweden? What is the population of Sweden? Why do we care if you make more money than us?
Needing so much money... that smells like a weakness to me. Little poor boy I met in Tanzania is way tougher. He doesn't need squat and always has a big smile.
Those are not western countries I would even debate US is a western country these days With tank parades and what not
Two World Wars. Where did they start?
You are right though. F***ing tanks parades... my god.
p.s. yeah but those countries are the future. well, not russia so much, but india and china.
Mind you are living probably in one of most expensive to live country.
If you move to other countries in EU (including UK, which also considerably expensive) on its own, not to mention going beyond that, you will find out, that reality is completely different. And soon you would learn, you can afford much more, for same amount cash.
Yeah, thats what 100 years of socialism do to you.
Here is a good clip
yeah, i dont see how living in a place where its really hard to live is smart. Like, get out of the desert dudes. That's no place to live. Life doesn't gotta be huge struggle.
Doesnt need to be as expensive as my country though to have a descent way of life
thats what im saying. you can live at 40k or much, much less and have a perfect life. its actually a fault that some societies require so much wealth in order for people to think they are happy. in a lot of cases, the opposite is true.
a poor life is a happy life, as they say.
Sure but a good income also makes you a more free person. Free to buy housing close to work, etc, etc
Nothing of these makes you free. That is just delusion. Specially buying a house. You become tied up and need look for a maintenance. Going to work, to pay for a house, for sure not make you free
yeah for sure. but everything comes with a cost. Either for ourselves, for the planet, for others. Its not "more wealth = better"
@Antypodish , I would disagree. Owning property is the single safest investment you can make and makes oyu considerably more free than renting. Every month that oyu rent you are throwing your money down the drain.
Since I bought my apartment it has gone up by roughly 100 procent. Hard to make that profit on other endevenours like stock market etc.
Not to mention that renting is throwing cash on a fire
@AndersMalmgren stop arguing money and politics and go to the steam thread and talk about your game's stats.
If I made 40k a year, I'd be rolling in dough. I could live off of 12k.
I have my house and car paid for, my utilities are reasonable, property tax and insurance are reasonable. I set myself up to pursue a fun career. The cost of living in West Virginia is low.
Hell, if I needed 40k to live, I doubt I would have even tried to be an indie developer.
I don't think my games stats is really relevant to you since we are VR
Sure it is. The numbers themselves are likely very different, but the ratios and the like are probably fairly consistent from genre to genre.
yeah, seriously Anders, stop distracting me. i got work to do
What if the car breaks down etc, 12k a year doesn't give much buffer
I have money in savings for that, and 12k would be more than my current expenses, so unless it was a really expensive problem, then I'd be fine.
Now, of course I would like to make more than 12k. I'd like to have extra to put in savings and spend on stuff, but if we are talking about bare minimum to survive, then it'd be enough. I'd still be able to put 1k to 2k in savings per year if all went well.
This only holds true if you believe that this is a livable income. In huge swaths of the US, places that don't force you into a structural unemployment won't be a major issue, it's really a slim margin you have to live in. Also, median income really isn't what you want to measure by anyway because of the severe income distribution issues at play.
Whatever you are makingi each year isn't really the thing, its more about how much wiggle room you got. I know people who lived in california, got six figure jobs, living in dinky house and paycheck to paycheck. People paying more for a run down one bedroom apartment in one month than I've spent on all the vehicles I've ever owned combined. It's madness. If you can, move the hell out of places like that. How is it worth it?
I don't follow, mate. This "holds true" regardless of individual circumstance. The US is in the top half of first world incomes, and if $32k is the top half of the us, then by virtue of being in the top half of the US, you're almost certainly in the top quarter of the first world.
I spent most of my life in new york, $30k would be very, very hard to live on there. But that doesn't change the median us income, or the median first world income. You can be po' in new york, doesn't mean you wouldn't be rich somewhere else.
(Also, median is the best measure when dealing with skewed distributions)
Global income is irrelevant if you don't have global mobility.
What I said was true. How you, or I or anyone else relates to it doesn't change that. It might not be relevant to you personally, but its still true. Fair or unfair, right or wrong, relevant or irrelevant, don't matter.
If it's not relevant or relatable, then you might as well be talking about something else entirely.
Eh, there's a place for someone to call balls and strikes. Even if nobody wants to hear it.
Not if everyone else is playing football.
My parents picked up their latest house back at the tail end of the 1990s for $77,000. We needed to do a little patching to the roof to keep it from leaking, but other than that it was completely livable from the very beginning. Two fully finished floors and a mostly finished basement (the one unfinished room was basically storage and washer/dryer).
For people living in countries where the cost of living is a high number (not necessarily hard to achieve) it might seem like you can't get by on $40K but it's far easier to do so than you may realize especially in the United States where you can buy houses that were built many decades ago (ours is 1940s).
On a funny side note, at one point I was wanting to move away due to the rural nature of my area but that almost entirely changed when I discovered that our local power company is laying down fibre for all of their customers. We're about to have affordable gigabit ($80/mo plus $100 install). I bet there aren't too many places in Australia that can say that.
You can find links to my games below. Just spend it there.
Extremely worth noting that the housing market, even for fixer-uppers, is nothing like it was in the 90s, or even 2000s. 2008 kinda ruined a lot of S***.
Depends where you live.
I do wonder if this is because (in my experience) people tend to pick their education based on what they want to do rather than what needs to be done?
I was getting into programming around the time that the Internet was really taking off. Even if I wasn't lucky enough to get into sims and games I would absolutely have found work to do. I enjoy doing it, which is cool to me, but the reason I have no shortage of stuff to do is because my skills are useful to other people.
There's this common question that kids and teenagers get asked: "What do you want to do when you grow up?" I'm lucky enough that I'm doing pretty much what I wanted to do, so it's easy for me to say this but... shouldn't the question be something more like "what will you do for society / the world when you grow up?" I think the focus should be less on "want" and more on the utility one provides. That doesn't mean that you can't take personal desire into account, I just don't think it should be the primary driver.
Edit: For what it's worth, student debt in my part of the world seems to work pretty reasonably. We don't need to start paying it off until we reach a fairly generous income threshold, and it gets paid exactly like our taxes (deducted from pay before we get it), so most people don't even notice paying it back. To the contrary, most people notice a sudden jump in pay when they go from non-qualified work to qualified work, even though some of that jump is being withheld to pay back the loan.
So between those two things - picking an education that increases your value to other people and getting a good deal with student loans - I think that student loans can be highly valuable, both to individuals and to society. Certainly my own position wouldn't be nearly what it is if I had to first save a bunch of money at a much lower income rate before I could even start formal training for my career.
Even practical diplomas aren't worth it. It's not because of what's being chosen, but because degrees are becoming mandatory and if you want a degree that people will pay attention to, well...
(note: chart is adjusted for inflation)
Public ones won't take you far. The best they'll do is typically get you out of the retail/service cycle, but even that's a fair bit of a mixed bag. Even paying off public college debt is a nightmare because a lot of these jobs are still minimum wage, which isn't even remotely livable, even on full time.
Minimum wage and general employment rules are also a heck of a lot better here (Australia) than many other places. (Though, honestly, not sure how long that will stay the case.)
Still... if a job is minimum wage then surely that's an indicator that either a) it's not that valuable to others or b) overpopulation is driving prices down? Either way, if you're looking at your career from a resources perspective then they're situations you want to avoid.
If I were looking at careers today, in my part of the world, I think I'd seriously consider tradesperson-style work. It still requires training but usually not a multi-year degree, and the lack of glamour means it's a lot less competitive. And if you get a job that pays well you've got the flexibility to work fewer hours and pursue your own interests on the side, rather than relying on them to sustain you both creatively and financially.
Yeah, college is scam.
You can make an intelligent argument full of nuance to show why that isn't true, or isn't always true, or mostly isn't true... but to me, it's always scam. I just wrote it off a long time ago. I did try it a couple of times as an adult, but I just can't stomach jumping through hoops. Not my thing.
My wife has like 5 degrees, we argue about this all the time, so I don't got energy to do that here.
Definitely agree with angrypenguin. You gotta make decisions in your life. Some will be good, others bad. Choosing to invest you money in a smart degree is better than being a dummy.
If you don't think minimum wage jobs are valuable, try imagining a world where none of them are filled.
I never said that I don't find them valuable. To the contrary, I think that many people should be willing to pay more for things, because I think stuff in many areas is generally worth more than the dollar figures we attach.
Despite that, viewed from the perspective of market rates I completely stand by what I said.
Are you referring to the college itself, or to student loans?
both. Good in theory, which is how its sold, but in practice, it's very predatory. I'm sure not all the time, but whatever. Screw people, they're evil.
....it's late and I'm feeling cranky. I'm sure you know a lot more about this stuff than me, @angrypenguin, but I decided a long time ago that school is the dumbest waste of time and that's about it for me.
Tertiary education is not inherently a scam, but there are plenty of predatory for-profit schools out there (especially in game development) looking to make a quick buck off starry-eyed teens fresh out of high-school.
Education should be free (to an extent).
A) Because if it works then people should earn more and should pay more tax to pay off the free education. If it doesn't work then simply stop funding that degree. If this weren't true then public schools for children would not be funded either.
B) If you (the government) fund education then you can dictate what is free and drive people into careers that are needed for the economy. Teacher shortage? Fund teachers college.
C) This is probably the most important reason for why I think education should be free: We are increasingly living in a world where entire careers get disrupted. Some careers that are disrupted are in areas we never would have foreseen being disrupted even 5-10 years ago. The pace and breadth of disruption will continue to increase. As a society we cannot put the risk of a career choice of an individual on the individual if that individual choses a career that at the moment is a reasonable choice. Once they are disrupted and have too retrain they are not only going to get slammed by lack of work, but also the cost of retraining. This cost should be worn by society as society is the one that benifits from an industry being disrupted/automated/made cheaper.
I mean, the reality is that we're going to have to move to UBI in a few years anyway. There simply won't be enough jobs to go around.
Automation will render most of these jobs complete irrelevant in the years to come. The working class will be transformed into something else, and I dont think it will be a flattering transform.
I never said civilised = good. I’m using civilised in the traditional sense, which means “somewhere like where I live”.
That’s pretty much how it is in my part of the world. For most of the reasons you have stated. It’s working out reasonably well.
There are a few interesting side effects though. As @angrypenguin points out, in the land down under, you are financially better off getting a trade instead of a degree. Free education has pushed up the supply of graduates, while pushing down the supply of manual labourers and trades people.
It’s not at all uncommon here for a degreed professional to be on a lower salary then the low skilled labourers he manages. Supply and demand is a strange beast.
There is nothing free in this world. The free education is paid back through taxes
Yes, I think that's important to point out. Nothihng is free.
But we form governments and pay taxes to support common goals. Not investing in education is a death sentence. This is the number one thing a society should be paying taxes toward. It is the single stupidest thing a society can do, not to invest in education. Dumber than war, even. You don't make the kids smarter, you F*** the future.
Yes but problem is things given (it's not really given since it's paid back through taxes but you get what I mean) are more easily wasted. It's the same mentality with large conpanies and public service, money is wasted because its not your money and public officials do not really care about being efficient with the public fundings. Not saying public funded education is not a good thing, just that it can backfire if not done correctly
Yeah for sure. Part of the proper education has to be making people understand how society works, what each persons role in society is, basic civic duty, that sort of thing. That way you don't get half the population thinking taxes and the government are evil, while at the same time depending on welfare... that can only happen with a total failure of education.