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Question What is your plan with selling us stolen assets?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Enzi, Mar 19, 2023.

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  1. Deleted User

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  2. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    I already knew the answer when I asked the question. If I didn't, I just google it.

    What does it indicate to you? Does that dollar amount mean anything to Unity, or to a game that sold in the millions? Is it such a heavy risk that a reasonable alternative would be to flat out not use 3rd party assets unless everybody else is already using them?

    It's possible to make reasoned decisions and not just make up simple rules and follow them forever.

    You guys are weighing risk versus reward but you have vastly overestimated both the severity and likelihood of the risk and in response shoehorned yourselves with unrealistic restrictions.
     
  3. Deleted User

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    You're assuming the game will cover the cost. Not every game makes millions.
     
  4. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    "will i make enough money to pay off any legal fines?" is one part of the overall assessment but it's not the only one, nor is it very ethical if it was your only decision factor. Nor would it be smart because you dont know how much money the game will earn. It's one factor among many that you look at in making the decision.

    so just draw out a pro's and con's board and write it all out. What happens if I use assets even if i cannot undeniably prove who made them sold them, and what happens if I don't?

    And here's another question to ponder.... why is it that the big stores, unity and epic, can distribute and profit from assets without onus of having to verify them, but we as developers cannot do the same thing by redistributing the assets as part of our games? I mean, what is the difference?
     
  5. neginfinity

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    If you're asking for an absolute guarantee that an asset is safe, no such thing exists.
    There will never be a 100% guarantee, and if you want a 100% guarantee, you should make your own stuff.
    Nobody will give you a 100% warranty.

    If you're asking if it is okay to pirate assets, then depending on your region that can be up to $250000 fine and up to 5 years in prison.

    If you're asking whether it is reasonable to react strongly to potential risks of a pirated asset, then yes, it is. Murphy's law. If someone used a untrusted asset and got away with it, then, by murphy's law, you can expect that in your case things will turn out differently.
     
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  6. UhOhItsMoving

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    upload_2023-3-21_21-12-45.png
    Would you be able to look at the bottom image and provably identify the top image as the base?

    You should really define what you mean by "from scratch" because not every image is made starting with a blank canvas and a brush in Photoshop.
    Even if you make an asset from scratch, if it looks equivalent to an existing work, it's still copyright infringement (innocent infringement). So making something from scratch does not inherently mean "no infringement."
     
  7. neginfinity

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    The difference is that unity and epic are giving you tools for free that take couple of decades to implement, and they're giving them to you under conditions you accepted.

    You're neither in the same weight category nor you're in the same position.

    If you want different conditions, you'll have to use different engines or developer your own.

    P.S. Looks like I'm on BTMs ignore list.
     
  8. vintage-retro-indie_78

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    been thinking over what the OP said, that sometimes people blatantly steal, or then plagiarize, or also monetize other people's work, the problem is also that old question if ' creative ' work is even work, or one could put a price on art, at least people that tried making it, or writing a AAA - title know it's a ton of work, anyway, perhaps the question is more if one could even call art work, or then also put a ( reasonable ) TM, or then (c) on the stuff . . .

    however, what more worries me is making stuff, it could be code, shaders, writing, characters, 2D, 3D, and then ChatGPT sort - of ' appropriating ' the stuff, and putting it into some half - inhuman machine, and then it's just copy - paste, also no effort for anybody else to use the stuff, it's another example of people ' stealing ', or more also borrowing other people's work, and not sure the stuff asks for permission . . .

    anyway, it's almost the question of how to stop piracy, not sure it's even worse over it being difficult to define specifically what art, or assets truly belong to someone, anyway one answer is to go around with a camera, and make all one's textures oneself, however the problem is more then how to attach an ID - tag, or some way of making sure an image, photo, or even low - poly 3D asset, for instance if make a rock, or tree, there's a good chance someone else has made the same stuff, or there are only so many tree - shapes it makes sense to also call unique // original work, effort, or also creativity . . . .

    have no idea how to do this, or if it even makes sense, and for say Unity to not just play the content, and make sure it fits on their official store, but also check all 3D, 2D assets, or also sounds against the entire internet is perhaps a bit much work, or not sure there's an answer, if anything perhaps more need a way of adding an ' ID ' - tag to a particular work of art, 3D, writing, or whatever, that ' sticks ' with the original stuff, however there's a ton of problem, for instance if someone then watches the stuff, say an AAA, and then takes a picture of the stuff with a phone, then that new image doesn't have an ' ID ' - tag, so it's more a question of how to do that stuff . . . .
     
  9. spiney199

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    The way to beat pirates is to provide a better service than them.

    Gabe Newell was correct back in 2011, and the sentiment is still correct to this day.
     
  10. neginfinity

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    That is completely correct. When pirating is more hassle than buying, then people are gonna buy.

    When steam payment systems work properly, steam is more convenient than pirating.
     
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  11. Ryiah

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    Am I allowed to take the top image and apply effects until I achieve nearly the same result?
     
  12. Murgilod

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    This is the very definition of a transformative work and not the gotcha you think it is.
     
  13. neginfinity

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    It is debatable and this is lawyer territory.

    Copyright law appear to require substantial similarity. At least in some region.

    So, for example, if you take top image, printed on an inkjet printer, then used that picture in a blender and use resulting powder to paint an image of a cat, it SHOULD be allowed, even though you copied the image without permission.

    However, law does not necessarily follow common sense or sanity. For example, there was an accident when some university got upset because someone scanned their statue. The statue was in public domain.

    Here's an article about it:
    https://makezine.com/article/craft/...yright-debacle-how-a-university-got-it-wrong/

    What's more the image itself is a property meaning you may not be allowed to post it on the forum in the first place. For example, I do not know and cannot remember of the top of my head what license it is placed under. When I asked CGPT about it, it told me this:
    The ownership of the promotional art for Half-Life featuring Gordon Freeman and Alyx Vance with the Citadel in the background would depend on the specific agreement between the artist who created the artwork and the company that commissioned or licensed it.

    Typically, promotional artwork for a video game would be owned by the game's publisher or developer, who would have either commissioned the artwork or acquired the rights to use it. In the case of Half-Life, the game's developer, Valve Corporation, would likely own the rights to the promotional artwork.

    However, it's worth noting that there may be some exceptions or nuances to this depending on the specific circumstances of the artwork's creation and use. If you have a specific question or concern related to the ownership of this artwork, you may want to consult with a legal professional who specializes in intellectual property law.
    Great, isn't it?
     
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  14. vintage-retro-indie_78

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    it's a little bit difficult to compete with no-money // instant-download over say piracy, suppose someone makes an AAA - content, spends years making it, writing, 2D, 3D, all the stuff, and then one wants to take a fair // effort-spend price for the stuff, there's almost no way that could be 0 - 10 $$, or where the price of anything is bit more convenient than various piracy, or not sure code - stuff, there's also the problem of people on youtube playing the title, and then people get to see all the acting, or writing for free, perhaps #technically one could argue that acting, or also writing isn't worth that much money, however the problem is that it takes quite a bit of effort to make the stuff, or people go to acting - classes for years, and they want to make it their profession . . .

    also, to make quality writing, 1. you need to find, usually half - study to find a good idea, at all, 2. write the first draft, say 300 - 400 pages, that takes most people months, also over full - time, then there's editing, looking for errors, and it could take a person almost a year to make that kind of professional, or quality - writing . . .

    that's where the issue perhaps of fair-price, or effort-rewarded thinking happens over making quality, important, or then perhaps also impressive art, anyway the problem is that better service over pirates just doesn't exist, or then one could try and sell a prototype made over a few days for say 0 - 10 $$, and see if that ' beats ' the pirates . . . .

    anyway, the OP was bit more over theft, plagiarizing, or people ' pirating ' people's work, bit more over the 2D, 3D, or other individual assets, and overall what I'm thinking is that ChatGPT is doing that, and my worry is perhaps more what that's going to do, or perhaps there's going to be a ChatGPT-3D, that just mass - looks for 3D stuff, say rocks, trees, and then one types make this 3D model, or write me this story, and one then 1. has one's own work stolen, and 2. add to a ton of people losing their work, and even if working as an artist, or writer, almost any job in the industry is just over making fun, stories, or then entertainment overall feel it's a kind of work that a ton of people like, at least don't mind, or it's a way to achieve excellence, satisfaction, or perhaps also acclaim in some field, or human skill - set, etc etc . . . .

    that's where perhaps right now ChatGPT is bigger ' thief ', not sure in #theory, than say most pirates, and makes it half - redundant to contribute, or support also culture, art, civilization, or otherwise, realize it's a big debate, or topics, however wanted to say understand how the OP is feeling, and perhaps also that ChatGPT is ' borrowing ' stuff, or if that page is finally made only-work-approve, or gets a license from everyone, if other people aren't just going to make something that doesn't do that, right now it's looking to put the entire industry out of work, and it's also doing that by stealing stuff, even if you don't know it, or it gets taken into some big data - base, then mashed, minced, or otherwise made into something else . . . .
     
  15. neginfinity

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    It is very easy. The problem is not money.

    Pirated download brings risk of viruses, installation process will take extra space, and it will not be accessible forever to you in your digital library. The download may be available now, but it will be gone tomorrow.

    On top of that steam distributed download will instant automatic updates and fluff: trading cards, badges, artwork, access to earlier versions, community. This is valuable to some. Then there are service games which require online comonent you can't even access with a pirated client.

    It is easy to compete, if the developer is not an idiot. Sure, some poor school kid will still pirate it, because he can't save his lunch money, but median gamer age is over 30. Those people have money, they may be lacking time and they'll pay for convenience. They also have children who can ask them to get some games.

    A developer, however, can absolutely work hard and make pirating more convenient. This happens when:
    1. Developer refuses to sell in a region.
    2. Developer refuses to provide specific language version in a region.
    3. Developer installs DRM or distributes harmful software with their game.
    4. Developer sets the price point too high.

    Basically, you cannot prevent people from playing what they want or getting your product. You can decide whether they'll pay to you or not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
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  16. UhOhItsMoving

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    That's the point. If the final work is unique, the final work is unique, no matter how it started. There's no gotcha. :)
    You can, but the question isn't so much "given the top image, can you recreate the bottom image?", but rather "is the top image and the bottom image essentially the same image?"
    That's correct. Technically, I redistributed the top image without permission (assuming the license does not allow redistribution). However, it can be considered fair use as the purpose is for educational/demonstrative purposes, as is done in academic papers when testing image processing algorithms (ex. images of celebrities or presidents, which are owned by the photographers who took the photos).
     
  17. Murgilod

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    No, you don't seem to understand. You have stripped all context from the work in question, changing it into not just a "tweaked animation" or anything like that, but something entirely different. This is no longer a picture of a place, or people, or even a defined subject, it is a picture of grey noise.
     
  18. vintage-retro-indie_78

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    bit weird question, suppose make a tree, and there's a tree - gen software, and in the almost infinite amount of random trees that software can generate there's one that looks enough of a copy, then have some person ' stolen ' that tree from the random - gen software, think there are also auto - rock generators . . .

    anyway, #thx also for telling bit over how to avoid piracy, sort - of important stuff if one invests years of work, or effort into something, and it's also over paying the bills, or one wants to do something amazing, or important, perhaps something like the Harry Potter series, or a series of Stephen King books, or whatever, and the entire world is bit better off for that stuff having been made, overall think the debate is that we're gonna lose important, or high - quality work over stuff being stolen, or that it's too ' risky ', or then expensive to make serious // AAA - titles, or material . . .

    more over the OP, wanted to say sort - of have the same stuff, or been worrying if it makes sense to make anything, that perhaps the ChatGPT is just another ' pirate ' - stuff, and that it's an important debate to figure how to better protect original, important, otherwise celebrated, or merely impressive work made by various artists . . . . :) :eek:

    really, really tired atm, however the topics here are at least important to a ton of people, and overall think we're better off having it be humans that make various culture, and also that either important, or at least pro - cultural art is better protected, or that perhaps either the financial, or then more-rights to creatives is what makes sense, or could be an important cause // in that sense, also to prevent piracy, theft, plagiarism, or ' appropriating ' other people's work, even if it's just creative, made-for-fun, important culture, or whatever . . . .

    not sure, thinking of giving up an important title, also been working on the stuff for years, story, topics, other content, over it just being stolen, or copy - paste clone war stuff over the ChatGPT nonsense, don't want my important ideas, topics, or years-of-work to just get ' stolen ' by a random AI, and then any person just click ' make a copy of Harry Potter, 3000 pages ', or whatever, overall think it's an important topic . . . .
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
  19. neginfinity

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    The problem is that "transformativeness" is decided by a court. Wikipedia article has a lot of fun links.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformative_use

    Also, transformative use is specific to US copyright law only. There are 195 countries on the planet, each with their own laws, and this is an international forum.

    AFAIK it is undefined at the moment.

    Normally your tree gen software would define allowed use of the software in its eula. Examples of that are programs like terragen or houdini. You can also patent the generator algorithm so nobody would be allowed to use it without your permission for the next 30 years or so. This was don with marching cubes.
     
  20. vintage-retro-indie_78

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    alright, it was more my own thoughts over what the OP said, also not sure how to answer these questions, however it has ties to a bigger debate over when, or monetizing-theft over art happens, think it's also an important discussion . . .

    so, suppose also support the OP, and it's a good question if to sue, write the people ' borrowing ' the stuff, or then try and make a debate, however don't really have any answers, it's also very difficult to figure if something in another product is a copy - paste, or a near-hit plagiarism, and when it's a legal matter . . .
     
  21. UhOhItsMoving

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    Once again, that's the point: you can use existing works so long as your resulting work is unique. The point isn't to "obfuscate" the source so that it is unrecognizable from the original, but rather, to make use of existing assets to create your own unique assets for things you need.

    For example, if your game needs a leaping animation, you could use a jumping jack animation as a base and turn it into a leaping animation. Or, if your game needs a flyby sound for a ship, you can use a sound of an explosion as a base and turn it into a ship flyby sound.

    My point is simply: the mere usage of an existing copyrighted asset as a base does not inherently mean "infringement," the same way a work made completely "from scratch" does not inherently mean "no infringement." The only deciding factor is the final work itself.
     
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  22. Murgilod

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    I'm starting to think that you've never actually worked with 3D animations from a production standpoint and that you don't understand that we're talking about an actual animation pack that somebody bought with specific animations in mind.
     
  23. neginfinity

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    The information you have is likely valuable, but the way you present it is likely to put people off. For example:
    "What you are doing here is basically the equivalent to advocating piracy"
    "You're pretending that"
    "If you don't get that, yes, you are a total dope."
    "you keep deciding on absurdity"
    "not the gotcha you think it is."
    Every post appear to be accusing the person you're talking to of something. It sounds very combative.

    Regarding the point I think you were making....

    It kinda does not work like that with this specific media type - animation.

    You'll be either working with mocap data or you'll be developing it from scratch. With mocap data you'll get a noisy blob you'd have to stuff into whatever you're using for animation data, and you'll need to clean it up.

    With from scratch approach you'll be placing base keyframes, and the doing the work.

    Basically there's no gain from this approach, and amount of work will be comparable to doing this from nothing.
     
  24. Amon

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    I remember once, many, many years ago when I called the unity asset store the biggest and best place to buy 3d content and code. It was the best place.

    Now it's the biggest and best place to get ripped off and likely end up with using an asset that cripples your dev companies reputation.

    Also, when a store causes you to develop paranoia before you click the buy button it becomes a store you shouldn't be using.

    I've always noticed that when big issues like this cause a thread on the forum Unity stays as silent as a mouse at night. They know there is a problem but they have all the lawyers that allows them to have the store and impose the entire risk on you. As long as they get their 30% they really don't care about you.

    You see that Shareholder over there that needs a new BMW? That's who they care about.

    I don't use the asset store anymore. I wouldn't go near it with a barge pole. Unity's behaviour towards how they treat people who buy stolen assets from their store and the fact that they don't notify you that what you have paid for in good faith was stolen and that you will not get a refund....and the paranoid schizophrenia that you develop when browsing the store; "Is this going to end up being stolen?", Is this legit?", This is cheap, is it for real?", Is this a scam?", "Wait, where have I seen this before?", "Hang on, if this is pirated will I be refunded?".

    Basically it's not worth the mental stress to purchase anything from the Unity Asset Store. Make your own assets or find a reputable artist who can make them for you. I know it's all expensive but in the long run it's cheaper for your company than it is to have a community of people downvoting your game, negative reviews and accusations that your company facilitates in the usage of stolen assets.
     
  25. vintage-retro-indie_78

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    the best way to avoid this stuff was if Unity had something like the new tree - generator they got, and all the assets on the Unity were made by the company, or it was generated from software they owned, or if they even had a 3D - scanner team running around, bit over Quixel -- that way it'd only be stuff made by Unity you could buy, and no one had to worry over the stuff being ' pirated ' . . .



    Unity ' Placeholder ', or some fancy name, and everything was made by a team, or even several teams working for Unity, and perhaps the engine could also make more money, then they could allow people also to sell assets, however if someone had a big studio, didn't want to risk anything just buy the official stuff, and you know it's not pirated . . .

    anyway, it only makes sense for Unity to almost make this, the question is more if it's going to then be mid - quality, or more high - quality 3D content, or where one has a setting to decrease the quality of the content, anyway there's all these fancy, also somewhat affordable 3D - scanners one could get today, and perhaps Unity could spend a little money scanning things like rocks, trees, walls, debris, or also plants, or furniture, it'd also be a good service, and perhaps be bit competition for the Quixel stuff, and be also integrated with the Unity engine . . . .

     
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  26. impheris

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    Yep i have a lots of chat with it, veeery useful, i really love it, not just for code, it helps me with other software and recently it helps me with an address in miami
     
  27. impheris

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    IT'S EVOLUTION BABY!!! (insert awesome guitar riff)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
  28. Deleted User

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    I also notice how Unity is so quiet. It's disturbing.
     
  29. Deleted User

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    What about, instead, posting trustable assets, like Synty? I mean, it might be easier to do that than finding the frauds, and it could help new viewers get set in the right direction.
     
  30. kdgalla

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    Ok, now I'm paranoid - so instead of the asset store I went to Turbo Squid, where I found the perfect character for my new game "Golden Robot Adventure"

    https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-c3p0-1772929

    I'm sure that I can trust that this asset is 100% original and there won't be any Trademark problems down the line.
     
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  31. Murgilod

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    I get what you're going for here but this model is actually marked as editorial use only. upload_2023-3-22_13-45-16.png

    https://blog.turbosquid.com/turbosquid-3d-model-license/#Editorial-Usage
     
  32. AndrewAssetStore

    AndrewAssetStore

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    Hi everyone,

    Asset Store does provide refunds for cases where we remove content due to IP infringement, and in most cases, emails are also sent to affected users. Not all content that is removed has been removed due to IP infringement. "Deprecated" content means either Unity or the publisher has removed the content. "Disabled", where a user can not download the content, means it has been disabled by Unity. IP infringing packages will be "Disabled".

    Our content operations team do block content when it is identified prior to being published. We can not correctly identify infringing content in all cases, nor can any market provide 100% assurance that the content is free from IP infringement. When live packages are reported as being infringing, we investigate. If we feel it may be infringing, we will disable the package, provide as many refunds as we are able (due to bank rules, we can only go back so far).

    Not all reports of IP infringement result in removal. In some cases the content is being sold with permission, in other cases, the content reported does not match the other content it is alleged to be coming from.

    If you happen to find a package you feel is infringing on other IP, please do click the "Report this asset" button, and provide as much detail as possible. It is helpful if you provide a visual example that we can check out as well.

    Screen Shot 2023-03-22 at 11.22.58 AM.png

    Many publishers have active communities of users, and engage with their audience during the production of content, and are quite open about their development, which may provide a strong signal that the content they are producing is likely free from IP infringement.
     
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  33. rasto61

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    So this has been disabled and is not able to be downloaded, which means it was disabled by Unity.

    2023-03-22-20-39-22.png

    Refunds are in order?
     
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  34. Murgilod

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    You purchased that nearly 2 years ago so probably not.
     
  35. fab_games

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    it amazes me how many lawyers are building games... you all just like to argue to prove your right.. Ryiah especially and others love telling everybody else how wrong they are.. seriously how do you all have time for anything else in your life...

    when Us real users, really only want a bit of accountability from Unity store , or at least an email telling us when our assets are disabled and should not be used..
     
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  36. rasto61

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    Very nice.

    I would be interested to see the bank rules that impose these limits. (or that Unity cant simply offer vouchers or something)


    Looks like a profitable business model with little to no downside for Unity and people selling ripped off content.
    Inspires a lot of confidence to purchase from the asset store, when years later, assets I bought can no longer be used and the only people losing money are they customers. :slow clap::slow clap:
     
  37. hopeful

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    The Unity Asset Store guarantee: "We will screw you."
     
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  38. fab_games

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    this is not legal advice.. but if i were you all id download ever asset you own as those are still accessable even if "disabled".. since Unity will never tell us why an asset is disabled you can still use it if you choose to.
     
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  39. zombiegorilla

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    The asset store team has provided a detailed response, and the rest just has become arguing. Arguing online is one of the least effective ways to make games. Closed
     
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