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Discussion What is trending now?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rgodoy86, Oct 29, 2023.

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  1. rgodoy86

    rgodoy86

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    What in your opinion is treading now when it comes to game category such as ROG, Platform, FPS…
    But also in game style sci-fi, middle ages, high/low poly, high/low resolution, racing, sports etc
     
  2. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    What is "traeding"?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2023
  3. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Trending I think.
     
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  4. mgear

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  5. Murgilod

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    Take a look at the release dates of those games. Clones have followed. In fact, most of these came out at the pinnacle of this genre's financial viability. In fact, trend chasing is always a bad idea for this reason; by the time you actually get a game people actually want to play out, the trend will have likely passed.
     
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  6. halley

    halley

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    Swimming, tank games, boot manufacturing simulators, horse riding and farriers, Gadsden flag slogans, ...
     
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  7. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The most commonly released game type is "copycat game", "clone" or "reskin", usually mimicking another gimmick title. See "Vampire Survivors" or "Only Up". Another common occurrence is a "primitive porn game".

    Now, there are big releases that stand out, but I don' think they're a trend. If anything, judging by my discovery queue, people are aiming low, and are trying to get lucky with many releases of many similar titles.
     
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  8. dogzerx2

    dogzerx2

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    flappy bird!
     
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  9. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    The biggest trend I've seen in the AAA industry lately is making inexplicably horrible games that nobody wants and teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.
     
  10. spiney199

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    Making horror games out of kids themed media to sell the game to adults (and kids ultimately) while selling merch to kids (and adults as well).
     
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  11. PanthenEye

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    Indie immersive simulators (imsims) with PS1/PS2 era 3D graphics. Albeit, it might be a bit late to jump on that ship.

    The so called boomer shooters have also made a decent amount of cash in the past few years.
     
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  12. mgear

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  13. Murgilod

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    And here's why this is a trap.

    Let's say somebody goes "well then, I'll make a Lethal Company clone!" Okay, fine, whatever. But that means they're wasting their time right out the gate. Let's assume, for a moment, that you can get the clone out the door by tomorrow somehow. Let's just imagine that you put your hands together, concentrate really hard, and freeze time to make the game.

    You're still going to lose.

    The thing about competing with Lethal Company is that you aren't making a game where people are going "I wish I could play more games like this." Instead, you're going to have to try and find a way to make the people who are already playing it to play your game instead or you're going to have to find a way to make people who aren't already playing Lethal Company start playing your game. This only gets more difficult once you start factoring in the fact that it's a predominantly multiplayer title. Yes, there is solo play, but a huge part of why this got as big as it is as fast as it did is because of the social aspect of it.

    So now you've got the problem where not only are attempts to draw from this trend chasing, but there's no telling what the lifespan of Lethal Company is going to be.
     
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  14. mgear

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    yup!

    although from personal experience,
    i'm still waiting for a proper Vampire Survivors multiplayer clone.
    Have tested many of those, but there's always something that is "just wrong/broken/bad playabilty"..

    so i can imagine being a potential customer for better clones,
    even for Lethal Company (although haven't played it yet).

    *Dissonance-plugin is going to have a good time in asset store these days, has ready to use proximity voice chat : )
     
  15. Murgilod

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    This is also a trap, but one people rarely think about.

    When people play games, it's not just a mechanical connection they have to them. Do you remember the distant past of around 2010? Back then, every MMO that was coming out was being presented as the "World of Warcraft Killer," either through their own marketing or through the press. These games often offered dramatic improvements over WoW, from the ways they presented their narratives, to the gameplay itself, to the character customization, to the worlds you'd be exploring, all sorts of ways.

    But the thing is, they never really managed to peel away more than a fraction of WoW's userbase and that's because those people had an emotional attachment to the game. They didn't want a "better MMO" or an MMO with different/more features or anything like that enough to get over that emotional attachment. Now, I'm using WoW as an exaggerated example here because it's easier to see these connections, but these things do have analogues in things like Vampire Survivors as well. It's why one of the most popular Vampire Survivors clones is HoloCure.

    Why HoloCure? Well, we're back to that whole emotional connection thing, only in this case it's more born out of an external emotional connection. I'm not going to get into a big deep explanation of vtubers or anything here, but a Vampire Survivors clone where you're just playing as characters you're already familiar with, usually on a somewhat different level because they're streamers? That's going to be a better sell that basically any feature change. If you completely removed all the vtuber elements from HoloCure, you'd have a fantastic Vampire Survivors clone, even one I'd say is better than Vampire Survivors itself!

    And nobody would give a S***.

    If you want to supplant an existing game, you don't need to just be a better game. You need to be so much better that you can break those emotional bonds. Even a weak emotional bond will be a tough thing to break. Sometimes this is even more tricky because those emotional bonds are things like the experiences you had with the community surrounding a game. In a singleplayer title, this is almost entirely extrinsic. Maybe it's not even the community, but nostalgia. Nostalgia doesn't have to be some far away thing, you can be nostalgic for something that only happened a few months ago. You're fighting against that as well.

    You could genuinely write a book on why trend chasing isn't a viable plan. There's a reason that the place you see trend chasing the most is in the mobile space, where the turnaround times are super fast. You'll also notice that games doing trend chasing in that space get real aggressive with their monetization real fast. They know they're only ever going to be able to keep a small handful of people at best and they need to get as much as they can from them because it's the only way they're going to make enough money for that plan to be viable.
     
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  16. DragonCoder

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    Maybe combine Lethal Company with Among Us!
    First time I saw a streamer playing it, I totally thought some other player was the murderer, not monsters xD
     
  17. neginfinity

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    Isn't Lethal Company a clone of Deep Rock Galactic?

    Also, there are tons of asymmetrical horror coop games. Then there are 3d versions of amongus.

    For example, there's "Killer: Infected One of Us" which very amusing top negative review. Then there's... "Town of Salem", "TTT", "Project Winter", "Unfortunate Spacemen"
     
  18. PanthenEye

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    Yet Brotato, Halls of Torment, 20 Minutes Till Dawn among a dozen more similarly successful trend chasers exist. They might not be as successful as the trend starter, but chasing that 0.01% megahit game is arguably a less viable plan than jumping on a trend in a timely manner.

    Also, Stumble Guys is a Fall Guys clone and managed to completely outcompete the original.

    Lethal Company is a much riskier bet due to the multiplayer component, but there are plenty of success in singleplayer realm of roguelikes. The Survivors and Slay the Spire clones.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2023
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  19. Murgilod

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    I never said megahit. You're making this an either-or thing, but I've never presented it as this. You mentioned a small amount of games and said "a dozen more." Even your own wording shows the problem: those trend chasers that succeed? They're vanishingly rare. There's more reasons I haven't touched on, and I'll give a slant comparison for you here.

    You're watching a movie. It's an okay movie. It's fine. In the middle of the movie, the characters are sitting on a couch and watching Casablanca. If the movie is making the audience think of another, better movie? That's a terrible idea. From that point, the movie have set a level of comparison that the audience is going to be thinking of on some level because they have been reminded them of something better.

    Trend chasing does this by default. You will always be reminding people of their other experiences. In chasing a trend, you have the stacked the deck against your favour for that reason and all the other reasons I've outlined. You mention some games doing well? Okay. How many have completely bombed?

    And if we're talking about financial viability? Here's the real S***. I hate how many times I have to keep saying this. If you want financial stability? Get a desk job, don't chase game trends.
     
  20. UhOhItsMoving

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    What does "lose" actually mean, here, though? What is the goal that defines "win" and "lose"? High (enough) revenue/profits? High (enough) player count? Convert (X amount of) players from that game to yours? Supplement that game or contribute to the community/trend with your game? Gain popularity amongst the genre/trend? Get your company's name out there (i.e. get players familiar with your company)? Get game dev experience period by shipping a game in a style your familiar with and enjoy (i.e. get your feet wet)?
    Who said anything about competing with it? "Game" and "Game Clone" are two separate games. People can play one, play the other, or play both. A majority of people do not tie themselves to only one, nor do they feel an obligation to be loyal to one over the other; those who do are often called "die-hard fans" or "fanboys", with the latter usually having a negative connotation.
    Yes, this is true. Ironically, though, it's this exact emotional connection that makes them want more of it. When you get a "clone", you get two versions of the thing you love instead of just one.

    This idea you have that people need to "emotionally detach" themselves from a game just to play a similar "clone" game just sounds more anecdotal than factual; I know there are many people who this is true for, but for the majority, no. The only reason I've seen a playerbase not like a clone is because the clone sucked and/or was not worth the cost, not because they were too emotionally attached to the original to "cheat on it" with a clone.

    For example, with mgear:
    They want a clone, but the clones they have tried suck. So, as one can infer, if they get a clone that doesn't suck, they will play it and like it, no problem; no breaking an "emotional attachment" with the original game required (in fact, they've already played clones, so technically, that's already happened). After all, they are asking for more of what they like, not an alternative to something they don't.
    "Success" in general is vanishingly rare; an "original" creation is not promised to be any more "successful" than a "clone" creation. More ethical or admirable? Sure. More successful? No. In fact, clones can actually be more successful than their originals, hence, why clones can be controversial to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
  21. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    It means you're going to lose time and money.

    You did okay if you covered all your utility bills for development time, have enough to pay for one more year of development time, earned more than minimal wage per month in your game and have no outstanding debts.

    You did a bit better than okay, if your salary is on the level of computer in the area for the period.

    You did well, if you no longer have to work for the rest of your life after putting the game on sale.

    Clone is the same as original. You're competing. If you weren't competing, it wouldn't be a clone. It is trying to ride on someone's coattails. Literally.

    No, you get a ripoff and not a thing worth playing. In case of hololive people play because they like the characters. Clone that and you'll get nothing, because you do not own the characters.
     
  22. UhOhItsMoving

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    As I expected. Is this something a majority of indie game developers see as "losing", though? Understand: I'm talking about all indie devs, even the ones who develop games in their free time as nothing more than a hobby.
    You're an indie dev talking to a community of indie devs: I don't think any of our financial situations are "I got that AAA money falling out my butt pocket."
    I was taking "clone", within the context of... you know... the thread, to be "copying major elements/themes or trends from a game or games while still staying outside of lawsuit territory" (i.e. not a literal virtually 1:1 clone). Examples of games I'm thinking about are the multitude of Five Nights at Freddy's "clones" & fangames, Poppy Playtime and Garten of Banban being in essence the same, and how all three of those games all take place in a children's play area; i.e. this:
    In addition, sure: every "clone" game is a literally competitor, as the less time you spend playing one game is more time spent playing the other. But from the point-of-view of intention (i.e. the very reason someone is making the game to begin with), competing with the original game is not always the goal (e.g. I don't think Trepang2 is meant to be a competitor of F.E.A.R. even though it was heavily inspired by and has many major elements from it).
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
  23. DragonCoder

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    Nobody wants to forbid you to reproduce gameplay mechanics of a popular game if that's what you enjoy doing, no worries.
    It's just that people tend to ask for "what's currently popular" not because they just love to develop exactly those game mechanics but because they want to have an advantage at developing their game compared to others.
    That's what tends to fail and then the frustration is greater than if you'd have tried an unique own idea.

    If you do just enjoy the popular game and believe you'll enjoy developing something inspired by it, or even a fangame, then go for it by all means. It will definitely hone your game dev skills!
    Just stay away from Nintendo fangames since that company tends to not like that much xD

    Well, one could call these a subgenre and then that's indeed something else.
     
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  24. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    What is the benefit of pursuing this line of reasoning?

    Because there's a logical fallacy called "ad populum" which is appeal to majority. If all indie developers agree or disagree, does that change anything? Do you want your life to be controlled by majority vote?

    Again, what is the benefit of pursuing this line of thought?

    The thread few messages before your post discussed literal clones. And replicating some game mechanics does not make the game a clone. It appears that you're trying to move the goalposts and definitions.

    A clone is a copycat game that copies ALL mechanics while adding nothing. It is not the same thing as borrowing elements. And the only purpose of the clone is often to steal some of the original's fame. Regarding vampire survivors, like Murgilod say, there's ton of those games, and seeing one of them kills any desire to play it. It is the same as original thing, so what's t he point? And if I wanted "more", the original thing is still here. And like Murgilod correctly said, the only popular one is Hololive, because people care about characters and do not really care much of the game.
     
  25. UhOhItsMoving

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    To question if it even makes sense to mention in the first place. Like I said, there's only indie devs here, but people are approaching this only from the perspective of "make buckets of money," and if you don't "make buckets of money," you "lose." This is why I asked "what is the goal?", and why I asked "is this how the majority of indie game devs think?" Because if you're only approaching a discussion from a perspective that does not apply to a majority of people, then that discussion will only be beneficial to a few people. For example, if most indies don't care about making buckets of money, how beneficial do you think telling them "you won't make buckets of money" will be?

    So... the question still stands: is what you said something a majority of indie game developers see as "losing"? And this time, consider actually answering it instead of avoiding it.
    There is zero to do with winning any argument, and zero to do with being "controlled" or making a decision by a majority vote... Lol... what vote, where?!?!?!
    Or, actually, I used a definition more akin to Wikipedia's definition of video game clone (specifically, the underlined parts):
    No goalpost moving here... :rolleyes:

    The reason I didn't define it as "copycat" is because it seems pretty obvious a near 1:1 copy is a bad idea (and this is ignoring the fact that it would be copyright infringement, anyway). This is a no brainer... a given, hence, why I assumed "clone" didn't just mean a 1:1 copy, but rather, "copying major elements/themes or trends." My bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
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  26. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I don't know, that's why I asked previous question. What is the purpose of knowing whether all gamedevs think this way? Does this information matter? Because if you think "if everybody does it, then it is right", that is a fallacy. And if you do not think it, then the information is irrelevant, and then the question serves no purpose.

    Except wikipedia is not an authority and is not trustworthy source either.

    The thing is, there was this post:
    Those are the clones being discussed. There's probably something like 30 vampire survivor clones, about 10 only ups and so on.

    The moment you see one of those you do not want to play it, because it is the same thing as the original or inferior version. And generally you do not want more of the same thing, because you already played it.

    So, basically... if you want to ride the trend, then you'd want to duplicate it quickly, meaning it is the same thing, and hence will fail, because it is competing. If you want to build upon the idea, then it is not a clone anymore, and by the time you're done the trend will be long dead.
     
  27. UhOhItsMoving

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    Yeah, again, my bad. Clearly, I agree that those types of clones will fail (again, for no brainer reasons).
    1. The reference to the Wikipedia definition was to show I didn't just pull the definition I used out of thin air to, as you said, "move the goalpost and definitions"; my usage is on that page, and that definition has more or less been the same since 2005. In addition, this isn't exactly a claim to fact, per se, just a meaning of a term (as in, one of several meanings of a term).
    2. As one can say that with Wikipedia, one can say that with any other website (that's not .gov or .edu), as well, including this one.
    3. A Wikipedia article dedicated specifically to the term with 608 edits and 122 citations since the year 2005 sounds adequate to me, especially when focusing just on a meaning of the term.
    4. Let's be real... the only reason you're saying that is because you don't want to accept it... Think about it: do you put this disclaimer in your posts whenever you reference Wikipedia?
    *Moot point, now*, but in the context of a clone being a very similar game (or even in the context of an original indie game), I'm asking if the definition of "lose" being, as you defined it, "lose time and money" is true for the majority of indies in order to gauge if it's even beneficial to define "lose" that way. For example:
     
  28. spiney199

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    Did you mean to quote me here? I have no idea what this has to do with my post, which was mostly just a facetious, wry comment. And also slight commentary on the surprising number of "horror games for adults but merchandise targeting kids" I've seen.
     
  29. UhOhItsMoving

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    Yeah, I did. I was just referencing it since the games I mention fall under that trend.
     
  30. Murgilod

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    None of this actually makes sense if you think about the question "what is trending now?" for even a second. Supplement the game? Why would you need to ask what's trending then? Getting your company's name out there? People will think you're just a company that capitalizes on a game if they think about the company at all. Most people don't. Getting game dev experience period? Why would you need to know what's trending? You already know what you're familiar with and enjoy.

    This isn't true, really. In fact, it's very funny you accused me of using anecdotal evidence when we actually have numbers stating otherwise. The average attach rate on Steam and the major consoles is around 10-12. Most people have less than a dozen games. These people are not "fanboys" but exactly the opposite of that. This is the average consumer. The further you get away from the average consumer, the more games they'll have, but most people out there? They don't have Steam libraries with 300+ games.

    "Wow, two cakes!" only works if you're getting something for free. It's not just an emotional attachment you're dealing with, but the additional financial incentive. Again, there's a million factors as to why trend chasing is a bad idea. And, again, we can circle back to the attach rate thing. This is a powerful enough factor that most people aren't going to jump because they already have the handful of games they like. Even a small emotional attachment, even a little sentimentality is a high bar to clear.
     
  31. neginfinity

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    Mental gynmnastics with definitions are neither interesting nor useful.

    Again, why would that matter? Most game projects fail, most games are bad, so how does "what most indies" helps you specifically? How is that line of thought useful? Also those hypothetical people are not here and aren't talking.

    Making a clone means you waste lifespan making something already exists, gain nothing, and in the end the result is not even "yours", as it is a copy of someone else's work. What is the point?

    Regarding your: "The only reason I've seen a playerbase not like a clone is", that completely contradicts my experience. Clone is inherently not interesting, and you'll end up playing one only if you do not know that the original exists. To be interesting, game needs new combination of elements. And then it is no longer a clone.
     
  32. unitedone3D

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    Hey there, just a 2c. I think this is splitting hairs...as some said, not everyone is making a game for it to be financially successful; but, as hobby thing, to learn and no intention of selling it. I was stunned to see there are more devs like that, than the inverse (I thought that (nearly) all devs were in it to 'make it big'/financially...but, many, no; they even convince themselves, it's pointless; less than 10% of people 'make it' in terms of money...so why bother (trying) hence, they only do it as hobby (like that GDC youtube video :''11 years without a hit'', try to convince someone to spend 15 years of their life failing); and even, give the game free (especially, on itch.io), to me, I can understand and get their pov; it is a very competitive oversaturated market, with, as said, tons of clones..competing, with your game; -competing, with them); In a sense, they are right, it is almost futile...to even try with such competition out there; your chances of being a financial success are (very) low to begin with.

    It's always been a huge gamble/risk to make a 'long haul project/experiment' like a game (and is why, devs now try to do 'fast turn around' and 'pump games' each 6 months or less..to minimize work length and 'possible failure(S)', that's it too long to 'put in years....' a 'possibly failing' product (high possibility of that)..by then years later, when released.). And, it's true also, about chasing the next big thing, I mean, when a game 'hits it big', especially a small indie game, overall, it's rare(r) - than often....in the grand of scheme things; it's still less than 100 or so games who make milion$...vs 150,000 others who don't/they fail 'financially' speaking; if they did it as hobby...they succeeded in making a game....not a (very) Selling/Sellable game though that Earns a lot. So success/failure is very subjective, and not everyone as the same pov/view/understanding of it means - to them. To me, success is not releasing a free game and calling it a day (in 3 months or less...ok. You learned, you made something, you can move on next game...but that is costly, the time it took. some people have free time and free money? (yes, some job on the side)); to some it is. When you put years in a product, it become extreme risk/gamble and you only got 1 chance. It's why it is so nerve racking; but, you took that chance and responsibility; you knew, your game, could end up making 4 cents...in total profit. You accepted it should it happen. Why would people do that, if it so risky and pointless to even try (facing such competition)?

    Because, many other smaller games don'T hit it big, that'S reality; people, now, expect quality and (some) scope....not microgames (not willing to pay for that)...except, maybe, certain niche of gamesr; not 'mass market/consumers' in general (wide appeal/mass market appeal); AAA steal the show all the time; so that means, your small game needs to do something very original, executed very well, and if it is a clone; well, it cannot simply be a clone; (I mean...it can...but you are setting up yourself for failure); in order to mitigate that, you have to Innovate...put a spin on an old idea; (though, not to the point of alienation/foreight/niche thing that is obscure), so you need familiarity (that clone thing), mixed in with new IP; like ex: FPS games...there was a FPS game that did a sort of 'Gravity Reversal'..where the world was 'upside down'...and you walked 'on ceilings'...instead of floors...it was 'turned around'...this idea 'was gold'..it was a spin on the old FPS games....they did not just make Another...FPS game...they made one, and (somewhat) (re)invented the wheel and innovated on the old FPS games genre...so, it is better to do that; than, yes, simply copying a success/seller; but, it is not bad to learn and inspire yourself from a successful game, which you are (in a sense) cloning...It is like something seeing professional artists/painters...who, literally, copy, repaint an original painting; like, say, Davinci's La Joconda....they remake it...exactly as it is...is this original? is this pointless?....it'S just a 'copy'...facsimile/clone..of that painting; true, but they learned, they learned the craft to Make that joconda (like me, I painted the La Joconda...in aquarelle...in my young years....nothing original, is same portrait...but with a spin, in aquarelle and I learned paitnting, to be better); ''practice makes perfect''; it'S why Mr. Zukalous 'Steam GuyTM' says: ''you must make more than 1 game...to succeed; successful indie game devs have one thing in common; they make/made many...before hitting it big.''. And, it's also why, the 'make small games...real fast...fail quick...next. learn -to love -to fail''; it'S true,but yeah, from what I gathered, there has to be a time that you undertake a bigger project; or else, it may never materialize. Just look at the recent game 'Choo Choo Charles' made by a solo dev.....he hit big with his 'Tom the Train/Tank' idea (PBS children 1960s train show --- as indie horror game, sold 1 million copies or something), this demonstrates you can't simply copy games/ideas, you have to come with your own twist/ideas too; cloning is, sadly, not enough anymore; with that said, I also agree that yes, people like 'more' of what they like; hence, can play a clone; 'more of something good' what'S wrong with that; with that said, people can tire and just default to their 'prefered original game' that is original and not the 4th million clone of it; hence, people stick to the 1 game that hit it big; and then, all the other games are trying to emulate its success, as clones; it's obvious; with that, also, said; I think there is still place for, some, clones to work and like when I look at AAA franchises; it shows people like more of what they like; like 'Re-makes'/sequels...but up to a point and this game needs to be stellar, the clones cannot 'be less' in terms of quality/execution; they can only reach the quality of the original and 'repeat it' in terms of content/ sequels/cloning......2 c.
     
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  33. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    This is a whole lot of words to say "I haven't paid attention to this thread at all."

     
  34. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The thread is about trend chasing though. If you're making games as a hobby, why would trends matter?
     
  35. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    A big trend I'm seeing on Steam is adult-rated visual novels, either with samey Anime art or bad Daz renders. I don't know how well they're actually selling but devs are definitely cranking them out.
     
  36. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    That one's not a trend, it is a niche. Been going on for 10 to 15 years, though previously was staying on patreon. And now that you've seen one of them, the steam suggestion queue will recommend you fifteen thousand lookalike hentai puzzles.

    Basically steam is being used as a dumping ground for trash adult content. This is some of it.
     
  37. Murgilod

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    It's also worth noting that a lot of them are being churned out en masse by the same small group of developers. I think at some point Winged Cloud, one of the anime ones, was putting out a half dozen a year.
     
  38. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    No one's supporting trash puzzle games on Patreon upwards of 50-100k a month. There are a lot of legitimate games on there and Steam. Sex does sell and no niche is immune to shovelware and asset flips.
     
  39. DragonCoder

    DragonCoder

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    Because if you have no game idea of your own you deem as great, getting inspired by something popular is the best alternative?

    That said, the starter of this thread has never posted again - so it's probably pointless to discus this with so much heat xP
     
  40. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I think, if you're copying or trend chasing it means you may not be actually inspired and may be looking for an easy way out.

    It is fine to mix and match elements or gameplays, but for a hobby, there should be some sort of your own core or idea. The initial impulse has to be yours.

    That's an opinion.
     
  41. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    The examples I listed are just that: examples, so if some are "faulty," fair enough; they're not meant to be "correct", per se. The main point is the question, not the examples. neginfinity answered that "lose" means "lose time and money", and I assume your answer is that, as well.
    As I've clarified, the "clone" I was referring to in that quote means "very similar games", not "literal clones" (which is what you meant); I've already listed examples of what types of games I was thinking of. Like I said, though, it's a moot point now, and I agree that literal clones are a bad idea.
    What I was saying was in reference to your "emotional attachment" argument; that's what I said sounds anecdotal, not the "attach rate", which is not something you mentioned in any of your posts I quoted. "Emotional attachment" and "attach rate" are two completely different things entirely, and are not even in the same discipline (emotional attachment is psychology, whereas attach rate is business).

    So, just like you have numbers/stats/etc. for attach rate, do you have numbers/stats/etc. for emotional attachment? Or, are you able to tie emotional attachment to attach rate?
    I never said I disagreed with that, lol. I never said anything to the effect of "chasing a trend and/or making a clone is a good idea" (in fact, if you read all my posts again, I've more or less said the opposite). I'm just questioning if some of your reasons for that are valid/correct; in other words, I'm not questioning your conclusion, but rather, some of your reasons for that conclusion.
     
  42. UhOhItsMoving

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    Mental gymnastics? I only posted a definition That's it, lol... Is it so hard just to say "oh, ok; my bad" (like I, myself did)? Must you always respond by deflecting?
    Once again, that quote is in the context of "very similar games", not literal clones; I agree with you when it comes to literal clones.
     
  43. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The main reason I responded because I found "why?" interesting. Why would it matter and why would you want to know if all gamedevs think this way. Because one two main reasons for asking if "everybody thinks it" is to seek support of own argument via mentioned fallacy.
     
  44. UhOhItsMoving

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    I've already answered this question twice, but here's an elaboration:

    For indie devs, I'm of the opinion (hence, why I asked the question) that a majority of indie devs do not see "losing" as "losing time and money" simply because turning a profit (let alone, making a lot of money) is not their goal (i.e. motivation) for making an indie game to begin with. So, when generalized, the statement "you will lose" is not actually "true", per se, simply because the majority of indie devs do not see "losing time and money" as actually "losing". For them, they might see "losing" as their game not having a certain amount of players, their game not getting any amount of attention within a (niche) community or trend, not gaining any amount of name recognition for themselves (as single developers) or their company, etc.; this is what I meant with my list of examples.

    My whole intention was to actually point out that "winning" for a majority of indie developers in general does not inherently mean "making (a lot of) money". In other words, the goals of indie developers are not inherently the same as the goals of large companies (e.g. Epic Games).

    So, in short, my intention was to determine what the most applicable, and thus, effective definition of "lose" is.

    Why is that even important? Think about it this way: Let's say that most people think donuts are the best sweet to eat (i.e. donuts are the most popular sweet). That statement is objective, as it is a claim of fact (specifically, a statistic). If you then want to, say, convince people that they should eat less sweets because they are bad for your health, it would likely be most effective to use donuts as an example since that is what the most popular sweet is, and thus, the sweet that is relevant to most people.

    In the case of @Murgilod's main argument that following trends and making clones is a bad idea (once again, one that I agree with), using the most applicable, and thus, effective definition of "lose" would, in turn, make their main argument more applicable, and thus, effective, to more people. Like I said:
    This is all, once again, in the context of "clones" being "very similar games", not literal copies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
  45. spiney199

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    You're confusing indie with hobbyist.

    Independant Developers, aka, a studio not attached to a distributor, probably still want to make money. You know, to keep their business afloat. Normal business stuff. Though true 'indie studios' are few and far between as even solo devs like Concerned Ape work with a distributor.

    Sometimes this involves chasing trends. Whether that works or not us up for debate. Sometimes good stuff comes out of it.

    Hobbyists probably don't care that much about what game they're making as they just want to make games, like myself.
     
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  46. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    Yeah, I think that's a better word to use. "Hobbyists" still technically falls under indie, so that's why I used that.
     
  47. neginfinity

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    The issue here is I was not addressing all indie devs, but the Op or a reader which is one person. And on top of it all statements online represent an opinion. In this case - mine. So as a human I share my vision of the world, lessons I learned in my world, and share them with you. The statement is valid because what I say for me is true. And it is your job to see if both the vision and lessons apply to you. As a human. You're supposed to understand that by default, infer missing details from clues and ask when you can't infer. Information is subjective and incomplete, welcome to being an organic platform.

    So, it does not matter what all gamedevs think. Because I address either Op or you and not them. You alone, and not an abstract crowd of hypothetical people who do not affect your existence in any way. That is why I said "why does it matter". Because the impression you give is that you want to decide course of YOUR action based on opinion of a crowd. Hence the majority vote talk.

    At the end of the day, what statement meant was "I think this way". All statements online mean that. You interpreted it as "I thereby claim that in all circumstances for all people in the world and beyond that lived, live and will live in all possible variation of circumstances following holds true" and then argued against it. That's not what I said at all. But that's what you argued against.
     
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  48. UhOhItsMoving

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    Sure, I'll take that. However:
    If you want to talk "addressing the OP":

    The opinions on "following trends" and "making clones" were not even asked for by the OP to begin with (albeit, I don't think that they're necessarily off-topic). I definitely get the reason for discussing those (I'm by no means unaware of "leeches"), but, unless the OP said something that infers that's what they're doing, or they've asked for those opinions directly, you are basically just projecting those opinions onto them (and the thread itself), and thus, trying to influence their (and other people's) opinions and decisions without them ever even asking for it.

    Now... does this maybe sound... familiar? For example, do you get a lot of "I didn't ask for that" responses here when you give advice you think is helpful? I have an educated guess as to why that is:

    If you don't know, doing that is called giving "unsolicited advice", and, while you think that may be helpful, it can actually be a irritating and turn people off. If many users here have expressed frustration with you giving them advice when they didn't ask for it, it's not just a "them" thing: many people in general find that frustrating.

    So, if you want to talk "addressing the OP", I would argue that, unless what you're saying sticks to what the OP asked, you're not actually addressing the OP, but rather, using the OP's thread as a vehicle to spread your opinion.

    EDIT: I guess this is what prompted me asking Murgilod specifically what do they mean by "lose"? in the first place: the OP never even mentioned a goal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
  49. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Nope. I do not.

    "If". That's the thing. They have not.

    Look, I see what you're trying to do here, but the thing is, I've been online for, what, almost 20 years now? So I'm very familiar what kind of reaction I get. It is generally positive one, with about 0.1% going ballistic due to me existing. Which is pretty good.

    Also, if you dislike someone, learn how to use ignore system and blacklists. Saves a ton of time.

    Have fun.
    upload_2023-12-4_5-12-6.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
  50. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    Errr... Ok... :rolleyes:
    Does everything to you revolve around likes and dislikes? Let's put it this way: I agree with most things I read from you, and from this forum in general. Just because I don't like every post you make, or, that I question things I find... questionable... doesn't mean I don't like you. In fact, read my post history: I question everybody, even the mods!

    Ignoring someone on a forum like this does nothing but put someone into an echo chamber. And, once again, I agree with most things I read from you, so that would do me more harm than good. Plus, I read the forum mostly when I'm logged out, anyway...
    Same to you; I don't want to clog the thread anymore, so I'll leave it at that. But this idea that I have some personal vendetta against you is just as crazy is Andrew Tate claiming the "matrix" is out to get him. Just because someone questions or disagrees with you doesn't mean they are plotting your downfall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
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