What is the right place to discuss game visual style? Or top-5 things that would distract you?

Hi All!

The problem: I'm working on this Yeti Home Defense game:

And hear from people around about over-saturation and not having single style, but nothing in particular.

What is the right place to discuss game visual style?
E.g. top-5 things that would distract you from playing?
And, as my target is mobile, what could be improved without fps loosing?

My reference style is 3d game kit, the setting is extraterrestrial planet invaded by crystals.

 

This is the right place. Visual style is just one aspect of game design, but if it's distracting from gameplay, that's squarely in the topic of this forum.

 

The problem isn't so much the style but the visual literacy:

Comparing the two tells me you need to either start following a class course, which will teach you how to parse visual elements as shape, textures, light, volume, colors, and how to compose them ... or to hire a specialist, ie a competent artist.

That said some quick fix, can increase readability, like having clear separation in the saturation domain between pure environment (harmonize the saturation level of the colors) vs dynamic objects (should be at 20% of saturation distance from the environment color).

Ps:
texture as visual elements is not the same as textures as image you put on 3D objects, which can lead to confusing statement like different textures (images) can have different textures (image quality)
For example cel shaded game tend to have flat textures (image quality) compared to realistic games which have more noisy elements. Even in realistic games textures (images) can have different textures (image quality) like rugged or smooth.
In your case, the main character have a lighting texture (image quality) that is overly smooth compared to the texture underneath (for example the hair), which create visual clash of style and weaken the image. You also have overly harsh shadow and garish color, while the overall "gestalt" (composition) is rather poor.

One way to selectively study the result is to decompose the image into HSL (hue saturation light) component and look at the various contrast in isolation, also a high pass on the light to separate high frequency and low frequency will tells you where are the potent part. This will let you visualize the visual hierarchy like an artist feel it, it you understand what's going on.

 

Ok, will try by myself

I have set low saturation and changed explosions and fog from additive to blended shaders -do you feel this looks better?
I need your advice how to make horizon not so sharp line...

 

The horizon will be taking care by using decoration as framing device like I explained in the post in the OTHER thread. You probably need something that looks like distant background (like mountain, etc...) look at the phantasy star example I shared in the OTHER thread (we should probably keep all discussion to the more active thread).

Also the white stuff below the crystal a great visual blending touch, it's creating a dampening low saturation transition to a highly saturated elements, which appease a lot the clash, good job. It's much better than having it read as snow scattered everywhere and fighting visually for importance. Having a similar blending decals under the rock (maybe dirt decals, or some grass around)) would also help not having them seem randomly place with no reason. If the ground is terrain and not just a flat plane, keep the collider flat, but raise a bit the terrain around the rock (and other big elements) to smooth the transition (as if dirt accumulated).

Tree are also scattered randomly, that's a good thing you use them as back up dancer, but they should probably be scattered in group, and maybe just a bit more variation in height.

Overall it's a nice improvement.

Don't hesitate to look at other game, the more you understand the visual concept, the more you see it's everywhere irrespective of production value, competent artist applies the same composition to AAA or to casual game, from high end to low end, 2D or 3D, movie or game.

 

1. UI
2. UI
3. Trees / plants / rocks placement is too chaotic
4. Background scale
5. Terrain texture is too low quality or missing proper normal map / height map; Or the mesh itself is too flat.

Health bar could have a proper background instead of boring rectangle. Make it a bit transparent if possible.
Same applies to the cooldown icons. White text on the white background is ugh.

Ideally make it the same icon, except a bit tinted to the black. In any case, spend some time polishing UI.
It is really important for any user base.


Object placement should follow some general idea. If its a forest - then place place trees in groups / more dense.
Same applies to the rocks. If those are mountains - then it should have some kind of logic or environmental storytelling behind it.

Have some objects at the background with a proper scale to break down a horizon issue. Or raise a terrain + place rocks. Plant some trees etc.

 

There are a bunch of issues others have noted, but I'll answer your original question regarding style:

A big thing is to see if things 'fit' together. In your opening cutscene, you have some relatively cartoony characters and a low poly tower right up in front. In the background, you see a beautiful realistic sunset. This clashes horribly, and immediately makes it seem like you're using various styles.

Another example is in the gameplay. The castle 'nodes' are relatively high quality, and give a sense of 'realism,' while the towers that rise up from them are far more cartoony. This clashes.

Some of the rocks used are using a realistic texture, while some of the trees feel like they got dropped out of a cartoon (albeit one that tries to look realistic.)

I think that is your core issue causing that feedback. Determine whether your game is supposed to look cartoony or realistic, and update the assets to reflect that. Once you fix that, more issues will pop up which you can then fix.

As another point of feedback: The audio in your last video immediately had me mute it. The explosions as they are, are very unpleasant to listen to.

 

Hi All!
What do you think about this idea:
figures 1 and 2 below create some visual borders of game scene (the composition is not complete, it's just an idea)
figure 3 represents enemy spawn point
and snowy mountains in back far away
Is the idea good to go (add some details)?

 

Its a good idea, just the execution is not so good.

Make it look less artificial and more natural.
In most cases you don't want your borders to be like "here's an invisible wall", but rather "this looks not passable".

 

Definitely, it was just a draft

 

Thanks for your reply!

Regarding s"of the trees feel like they got dropped out of a cartoon (albeit one that tries to look realistic.) " - all vegetation now is borrowed from unity 3d game kit , so either their artists decided that style is good for extraterrestrial planet (my world is extraterrestrial too), or they are mistaken and mixed different styles.
What do you think?

 

Thanks for your reply!

Regarding Health bar could have a proper background instead of boring rectangle - it is from Unity Tower Defense template, so I believed that unity artists know what they do when they do this style of bar, do they?...

Regarding Trees / plants / rocks placement is too chaotic - on foreground I wanted not to have clear field, i need obstacles for gameplay, on background I can have forest but i doubt that mobile will survive a lot of meshes...

 

OK, and what if this way - walls with magic blue fire, clearly stated they are artificial?
Need your advice regarding UI font color - yellow is completely invisible...

 

An what if I want to add some flat elements upon a grass plane - like a road ? Should I create one plane for road square block and then clone that plane to make long road?
How would that plane upon plane hell influence performance?

Making one big " grass with long road" texture won't help because ground plane is very large, texture would be blurry

 

The blue flame wall is a pass for me, they attract the eyes away from the action.
Snow under small elements don't work well in your case. What's the purpose of these small elements anyway? Plane on plane, if one plane is transparent or have alpha, that's overdraw, big nono for mobile, especially on elements that cover half the screen.

 

Ok, so do you think that stones without fire on right side of picture below look better than line of stones with blue fire on left side?
What if I make blue fire smaller? Fire ads some magic to the scene while simple stones in line do not look realistic...
Small elements were here to cover very simple grass, now added some dirt and moved small plants closer to stones on the right side - is it better?
Dirt and snow are actually transparent planes with Mobile Particles Additive shader, do you have better tech solutiion to do same thing?

And while mountains look good they do not cover skybox to horizon - leave as is or grow them higher?

 

I mean the goal isn't to place objects, it's to solve a visual problem, the problem is that you need a way to frame the scene by giving the eyes a way to focus, it's not really rocks vs flame, but visual potency, and the flame right are too visually potent and attract the eyes toward something uninteresting and non functional.

What you want to achieve is perceptual organization. The rules are universal!
https://pt.slideshare.net/MarkiyanVavrykovych/uxellent-lines-shapes-in-visual-composition/14

https://pt.slideshare.net/mardev/composition-1970521


https://www.verywellmind.com/gestalt-laws-of-perceptual-organization-2795835

https://americanwatercolor.net/an-a...the-elements-of-design-for-better-landscapes/

https://www.philhemsley.co.uk/article/visual-mass-and-flow-in-landscape-photographs-5802

https://focuspointshape.com/jurors-...-in-watercolor-using-elements-of-composition/

ie use these rules to communicate the gameplay and aesthetics
https://pt.slideshare.net/francpeters/les-3-game-3-d-silhouette-composition?next_slideshow=1

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/185676/the_aesthetics_of_game_art_and_.php?print=1

https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/46-level-design-for-games

https://www.gnomon.edu/blog/discover-naughty-dog-s-environment-art-workflow-for-uncharted-4

https://www.worldofleveldesign.com/categories/cat-game-art.php

 

Thanks a lot for your reply and links!

I understand that flame will compete for user attention, but what if it burns just for a while?
e.g. my scene begins with a wizard speaking "let that flame protect us as our walls do!" and flame acts for several second like runway lights and turns off completely to the end of battle?
That to my opinion will clearly say to player that really artificially looking lines of stones (with flames) were done by castle crew and ARE artificial intentionally.
Would that be good enough or you belive that I shoud rethink and create some huge rocks or hills or mountains both sides of scene?

 

And I still need your advice regarding horizon and dirt...

 

The flame don't matter, what matter is the graphical impact and fonction. If you find a way to make the flame fit the composition, it's great.

But you can't solve the issues by applying piecemal patch, you are getting suck into being to close, take a breath, look at the problem globally, and redo everything. But that's why I advise you to get an artist, you are basically entering a field you don't have mastery, and I don't think you are at a point where you would properly understand and apply advices. I mean you can try, and you can even have some success, but it will be limited, I feel like, based on your answer, you are reaching the limit of what you can do alone.

I won't answer directly and do my yoda, and see what you get AFTER you read ALL the link above (mostly they are the same thing told in various way, which is great to "get it"), which are basically mere introduction, maybe lightbulb will pop in your head, who knows.

 

ok this is how it would look in gameplay (no flames after 2 seconds after start)
what would you say?

 

Hi All!
I have created very short video showing new visual composition, what do you think about composition and video itself?
Could it be used as a promo trailer or should I fix something?

 

A lot of improvement!

It still looks a bit amateurish in some regards but has come a long way I think.

There is a YouTube channel by Marco bucci that covers art fundamentals in ten minute episodes. It's a great crash course and better understanding of art theory may help you tighten things up further still.

You might not see connections at first as bucci is focused on painting, but if you go with open mind and maybe even practice a bit of digital painting in Photoshop, some of that experience may start to bleed over into your level design.

Good work

 

Hi All!
Have asked an YouTuber to publish small news about this game on his channel among other games he reviews.
The video had 22 000+ views, but only 38 gamers has installed the game and only 2 of those has not deleted it after a week.
Do you think the game has to be improved further or should be abandoned completely in favour of something more usual - maybe runner?

 

Nah find an artist, you have maxed out what you can do visually alone with random asset. Presentation is key to grab. If you have a decent presentation, then the number will matter, people need to relate first. Then it's the gameplay, it must have retention quality, then it's monetization, so you don't end up poor by supporting the game.

 

Agree with above. Uniqueness of the design doesn't seem to be issue to me, rather the overall presentation, especially visually.

It seems you made great strides with this so may be starting something fresh is smart thing to do. If you don't have means to get better art, may be try to design around something simpler that you.can polish visually to a higher quality.

Even if it's nothing but 2d icons, if you just get colors and other basics done right it can still look really nice and professional.

For soloist, I think it's good idea to get one handicap so you can focus hard on rest of project. For instance, copy a design so you can focus hard on theme and visuals. Or vice versa, copy a theme so you can focus on design. Just make sure it's a theme you can comfortably reproduce on your own.

If you need feedback to help with the art you can post here and also at.polycount forum. Usually not hard to get lots of good feedback, especislly.if you show that you take it serious and do the work. (Like u did here)

Also bear in mind, 22k views is like diddly squat. You may only expect 10 percent or less of impressions to turn into a purchase, so really you need millions of impressions to have a shot at living money.

 

I believed that first is community of players who like gameplay itself, and graphics comes later - when you are sure that gameplay is good enough.
Was it wrong?
If I invest to art upgrade - bwt how much you think it could be? - who guarantees that players will come?

 

Chicken and eggs, by good graphics I don't mean top tier, I explicitly use the word relatable, currently your graphics are too random to be relatable, understand there is no hooks, nor visual quality nor style. You lack a strong apealing vision.

Basically your beliefs don't matter in practice, if I believe in the noodly lord spaghetti monster, reality won't bend to my will either.

You need to understand the logic:
In order to experience the gameplay they first must download the game, for that you must first broadcast its existence then player need to decide what's worth for them to try, that is the hook. If you don't have hooks nobody will care.

It's only when you entice them with a relatable hooks that they can experience the game, if they like they will sticks. But you have to first pass the filter.

You have to present value for people to try.

A basic shortcut is to ask, what's the fantasy fulfill by the game presentation?

 

I think you need to take two steps back, look at the market and ask yourself what you can provide that could be more compelling for some players, than all the stuff that already is out there.

Another runner won't cut it, unless it's "the best runner ever" for at least some people.

Like neoshaman said, you need better hooks!

 

The graphics don't need to be good but they need to communicate clearly.

Ideally, the are simple, legible, and reinforce the theme and overall game design visually.

I should be able to take one glance at the game and get clear sense of what kind of experience it will be to play. This does not require sophistication or fidelity, but it does require design. That's where having some sense about art fundamentals comes in handy.

 

Thank you, I'm eager getting feedback here

 

Ok now I have not prototype or small working demo but a real game that could be played minimum for several hours.

What would you recommend:

1) go to IndieGoGo / Kickstarter / Steam / Somewhere else for two things:
a) "advertise" the game this way - just make people be aware of the game and get some feedback
b) try to find some financial aid to upgrade graphics / pay for an artist

2) try to reach a youtuber/blogger with wider auditory (200k+) and publish some news - just make people be aware of the game

3) find users willing to give feedback
- here I need a good advice, that's a very hard point for me.

 

Ok that's just a point of belief:
- you belive that graphics/style hooks comes first
- I believe(d) that gameplay comes first and graphics could be upgraded later. Ex: remember that flappy bird with pixelized graphics but funny gameplay.
Let's think of it as I have a prototype and need some feedback for gameplay.

>what's the fantasy fulfill by the game presentation

sorry, I did not catch, explain that in some other words please...

 

If you have "literally the best in class gameplay" you can get away with hand drawn ms paint graphics, but pretty much everyone else can't.

If you want to feel like a badass soldier, you can play Call of Duty. If you want to feel like a sneaky assassin with superpowers, you can play Dishonored. If you want to feel like a truck driver with his own business, you can play Euro Truck Simulator.
What fantasy does your game fulfill? What do you need to want to feel like, to make your game be the perfect answer? That you don't understand the question means you likely haven't thought about it before, and if that's the case, it's a giant red flag imho.

I'm not the one to ask if you're in need of motivation. I think most of those are futile efforts and I think if you can't get the game to a level of quality in all its aspects, to where 3) becomes easy, you have little to no chance of making a really good and good looking game even with that feedback. You still need the skills to execute the lessons learned from playtesting.

If your free gameplay-demo-to-get-feedback-on isn't so compelling that at a glance people would immediately be interested in playing it, then you have no chance in the market imho. Like, look at this:

It's absolutely perfect! I bet they didn't have any problems finding playtesters.

 

- Share your game, by keeping the scope ultra small (think like TV pilote episode), on itch.io, FOR FREE
- Devlog on twitter, youtube, and many other
- iterate fast on method of making game, sharing strategy
- keep an eye on aspect that get attention, iterate on them
- If you feel you have people interested on some aspect, developed in a paid game.

You are just trying to be clever because you have no idea about what you are talking about. HOWEVER being stubborn is a quality, as long as you keep DOING stuff you will stumble somewhere cool, that's why nature is giving us Dunning Kruger.


Also a hook doesn't make a game sure, that's not what I was saying. But in the context above you were asking for player to be captured maintain, so you have to solve 3 steps, that's all. Gameplay don't matter if nobody play. Nobody play if you can't hook them. But don't aim at maintaining interest, the game should be shareable, that is if you have a small capture early on, well they will grew up virally.

But let's say where I will my experience card, I don't see you being at that level of gameplay given what you show, you need more experience, all my advice are tailor specifically to this aspect. Get more stuff done and don't care about being good or having a public just yet, nurture yourself and nurture your ability to understand and capture an audience.

I'll repeat myself "relatable", flappy bird is HIGHLY relatable, it has graphics that clearly signifies that it's a silly fun game, and it has no visual clutter, it's HIGHLY READABLE, so you get what's happening instantly. It also reference the mario 16bit style that is highly beloved.

Good graphics is really not it, as long as people have a fondness to it (see minecraft).

 

Gameplay and graphics is not really two separate things. It's like separating speech and body language. They both work together towards the same goal.

Goal is to grab person's attention, intrigue them with some kind of promise, and then satisfy them by delivering on that promise.

You need to be like a hunter. The hunter captures his prey because he understands his prey. He can predict what it will do. Doesn't matter how good he is with a gun, or how expensive his camoflauge outfit is. He has to be able to accurately predict what prey will do.

In this case, human is the prey. You must find a niche of humans, and when you know them well enough that you.could reliably catch them in a trap, then you are ready to sell them something.

Then it's not a question of graphics vs gameplay. It's only a simpler question, "what am I communicating to my audience?"

 

I have 2 more games in progress to discuss with you:
1) Deep Space Rescue - 2D space adventure game, in early access now, intro+tutorial here:

2) draft with codename Escape: player controller limited to only one command - rotation (90 deg clockwise per tile),
with additional threat residing in pink\blue clouds with alkali-acid mechanics (player shoud keep his ship in some near neutral state in order to not to explode):
short showcase here:

What do you think about visual style, gameplay and attractiveness for gamers of these?

 

>If you have "literally the best in class gameplay" you can get away with hand drawn ms paint graphics, but pretty much everyone else can't.

Ok do you think that graphics means much more than gameplay, i.e. simple Flappy Bird clone with FullHD graphics will be much more popular than something with poor graphics but unusual gameplay (ex - project Escape in post above)

>What fantasy does your game fulfill? What do you need to want to feel like, to make your game be the perfect answer?

I have a background story for the game:
- inside the game itself as a text intro
- first 20 secs inside this video

It is clearly stating the world setting where the player takes the role of world defender.
Is that what you are talking about?

>It's absolutely perfect!

that is the question of "tastes differ" rule - I personally do not like neither the style not gameplay

 

>Share your game, by keeping the scope ultra small (think like TV pilote episode), on itch.io, FOR FREE

thanks, will do.
actually game is free completely (no ADS) on Google play - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.omega486gamestudio.yetihomedefence

- Devlog on twitter, youtube, and many other

could you please recomment where to start from on twitter (I'm a complete noob there)?
What many others would you recommend?

- iterate fast on method of making game, sharing strategy

completely didn't catch this< could you please explain?

>if you have a small capture early on, well they will grew up virally.

ok how to find my audience? forums didn't work, twitter etc will?

 

The first thing that catches the eye when you want to show a remote area seen from faith is the lack of an additional plan that would reveal a distant perspective. During the fight it is quite clear what is really close and what is far away because there are many reference points. You can't show distant landscapes with only two plans
I would definitely like more people to play Path of Exile games today. The market still seems insatiable, which is why new arpg games such as Wolcen or Diablo 4 are being created. PoE is still one of the best, if not the best, position on the market of this type of games. Very long childhood and access to good computer games and a computer. Thanks to this, the generation of young people who enter the world of the Internet is not digitally excluded and are doing well in surfing the Internet. They also know how important currency is to the economy and that there are counterparts of currency in games. The best example of a game in which currency is also valuable in the real world is PoE (path of exile). A game in which orbs is currency, mainly exalted orbs and Chaos orbs, but you can also buy orbs of regrets, orbs of alternation, chromatic orbs, vaal orbs etc.
Buying and trading in PoE is not only, but also the responsibility of the self-respecting Path of Exile player. Do you want an Exalted orb? Do you want currency? The best and fastest way is to buy PoE currency on Odealo https://odealo.com/games/path-of-exile/currency
Thank u and be good

 

This is important. Doesn't matter if you like it. You have to recognize and understand what makes it a selling game.

 

At that point he is just passing his insecurities onto us, he just need more experience, I just hope he has enough grit, because I'm not sure based on his answer we can help him, he has a journey to complete on his own.

 

THis guy is making a lot of games! I think its clear they got the work ethic, just needs to develop the eye for quality. THen they will be crushing it I am sure.

 

@alex1st1 - hey, I hope this isn't incredibly insulting - but I feel like I've seen other devs produce the same kind of visuals you have. Like there's an odd pattern with some guys who use bright purple in a way that is very unusual. Do you know if you might be color blind?

I took a look at your screenshots here: https://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

IMO, the color composition looks way better if you look through a color blind filter, especially a weak green filter.