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What is the difference between 3ds max and Blender?

Discussion in 'External Tools' started by Cdunn, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. Tiles

    Tiles

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    And here goes our old discussion again, heh :D

    Not this much about reality it seems. Fact is, Blender gets rarely used in the Industry. And this has its reasons. Just have a look at Polycount or CGTalk to see what tools gets used :)

    Regarding "Blender can do almost anything Pixar can do",well, you can also do a race with a gogo mobile. But this doesn`t mean that you can succeed with it. Pixar is no modeling app. They make movies, and they have their special toolchain for that. That`s not Max or Maya though.

    Nice try, but wrong direction my friend. I don`t talk about skills here. Skills are subjective. I talk about measurable things. Relevant things for a professional pipeline. VRay simply renders by classes faster. With still better quality than Cycles. I talk about features. Does Blender have something comparable to Forester? Nope. A high quality particle system available in Blender? Nope. I talk about speed. The polygon modeling has still lots of fragments from the old core inside. Ngons still mainly exists at the paper for most tools. Which makes the workflow complicated and slow. Sculpting? This one has become a pain up to useless in its last incarnation. Texture painting? Not this bad. But not comparable with 3D Coat, Mari or other tools for that. And so on, and so on, and so on.

    Sure, Blender has catched up alot in the last months and years. It may surprise you, but the big boys also evolves. With a even faster pace. Because there`s much more money behind their evolution.

    As told, Blender is not bad. And it`s a jewel under the open source projects. But it is by no means a substitute for the big boys. It has too much limits. And the industry thinks equal. As told, it has its reasons why Blender doesn`t get used in the industry.
     
  2. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    As this topic was bumped recently, I decided to share my experiences with Blender. I've used max for over 10 years (I don't remember how long exactly, since it was on win NT) -

    Now blender - it's biggest problem is that by default it shoves everything under your nose which is a huge, and bewildering mistake. I mean do I really need to see rigidbody crap straight away? does all that junk need to be shown in the same interface? It's atrocious design, and clearly targeted at truespace users. What they should do is tab all that crap away where it should be under nice panels like Modelling, Animation, Rendering - nice and clear and useful use of screen space.

    I found the application itself to be more than capable but the layout is stupidity incarnate. Luckily, if you've a mind you can organise it.
     
  3. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    I'm almost certain that is, in no way, what he meant. last I read Pixar uses both Maya, and VRay.
     
  4. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Indeed. But just because a beginner / a hobbyist isn`t faster and doesn´t produce a better result in Max compared to Blender doesn`t mean that a professional is not able to. That`s in fact the area where the differences really counts. A hobbyist may never notice that he lacks of something when he uses Blender all the time. A professional does. I`ve talked to quite a few about this issue. And i have my own experience in this field too.

    Professionals are no morons. They use the better tool when possible. They don`t care about propaganda.
     
  5. Tiles

    Tiles

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    And now the one million dollar question, why don`t they use Blender then instead? ;)
     
  6. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    That has been my point all along Tiles. It should have already been clear that I was not suggesting an experienced professional would not be able to produce a better result. I'm not entirely sure we're being clear enough with each other here. An individual either trained in a specific application or not who has the experience to work within their program of choice will result in higher quality result given that their experience and knowledge allows them to take advantage of all the features available to them.
     
  7. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I use Blender in a professional environment, in conjunction with commercial software such as Zbrush and 3dCoat. Maybe I'm a moron... But I make my money :)


    Simply saying that Blender is just a hobbyist tool and not used in the industry, is definitely a broad statement.

    And btw. Pixar uses mostly proprietary software like MenV, Renderman and highly customized Maya versions, that you can't buy off the shelf.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
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  8. Redbeer

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    I fail to see what VRay and particle effects do for me for making games...
    Lighting in a game is based on what the game engine can do, not what some third party package can render out.
    Same thing with particle effects, if I'm going to use some, I'll make them inside the engine. If I want 2D sprite renders of particles, I'll make them in a 2D paint program or one of the many inexpensive software programs that do this function explicitly.
    If I want trees or fauna, I'll use one inside the engine, get a third party library, or roll my own.
    Quoting some plugin with minimal integration with any given game engine, that is also an additional cost hardly compares what's relevant to Blender vs. anything else.

    So it seems to two largest arguments are with things that have very small if any practical use in actually creating assets for games.
    Again, single use cases that have little to do with the most common operations of modeling, texturing, rigging, and animating.

    In regards to those things, what limits do you speak of, although I know this goes down the same slippery slope of you either pointing out nothing, or pointing out little things that the majority of people don't actually use? Blender has nGons now, extrude, cut, bridge, merge vertexes, a whole host of modifiers, what else is NECESSARY for building frigging characters, buildings, guns, furniture, etc.? Blender has a full set of nodal texturing tools, baking capabilities, great UV unwrap, 2D and 3D paint capabilities (although I'd just use Zbrush for that which is far and away much less expensive than Max or Maya). It even has a full created rig with flexible choice of what limb types to add or use that automatically creates FK/IK switching and does most if not all of the weight mapping for you. I truly don't get it, other than "my subjective but supportable opinion somehow counts for less than yours."

    Lastly, use in industry is hardly an indicator of capability, particularly considering that tool chains were setup largely before Blender was the reasonably good competitor that it is now. Also, it has been used more and more, the Van Helsing game being just one of many examples. Will EA every switch to Blender? Likely not, but they have no need or reason to do so if they are already on one type of software and a billion dollar corporation cares more for consistency than try to save a few bucks by using open source. It's the small to medium Indie teams that will gradually put Blender on the map, because they are the ones with the most incentive to use it.
     
  9. Redbeer

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    The pane on the right that has all the parameters for buttons like whatever this "rigid body junk shown in the same interface" you're referring to is.
    At the top of the pane are buttons that group these by category for world settings, object (which is modeling if currently in a modeling context, object properties if in the object context, etc.), physics, modifiers, and so on. In fact it's so close to Max before the ribbon that it's scary, just with much less clutter IMHO. That said, I close all but the 3D window down and use hotkeys and/or the spacebar menu (with the plugin) which searches tools for you and/or has an attached menu of tools based on the context of what you are doing when the plugin is installed, so I fail to see what all this clutter is.
    Blender is the "least" cluttered interface, and it's fully customisable with Python if you need it to be.

    My interface looks like this with probably about 1 minute of customization using only things that are packaged with Blender.
    $screenshot.png

    Just by closing a couple windows and modifying a few of the defaults in the preferences panel.
    I fail to see the clutter.
    Every tool I need with a few exceptions for dedicated tasks like rigging is available to me, and in the case of rigging, I just open a new panel the right with a simple click and drag and I have all the rest of what I need. You can also store layouts based on purposes like animation, modeling, etc., and it swaps the interface instantly by making those other choices in the list box at the top.
     
  10. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    Yes, Renderman. I just recently looked it up again and found I was incorrect about Pixar using VRay. I wonder if artists employed by Pixar are required to learn MEL script, and/or Python.
     
  11. Tiles

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    It was just an example to show that there is a difference. And it was an answer to a link that leaded to images rendered with Cycles.

    And even you may need to render a title screen, or a flyer, or a banner for your game :)

    But you will find the same differences with tools that are needed for game needs. Polygon modeling in Blender is slow and complicated. Texture baking happens with the BI, which is outdated and produces visibly lower quality. Unwrapping, geez, how i wish they would finally add the hotkeys for mark and clear seam back. Broken and reported as bug since several months. And so on.

    A very big slowdowner is for example that Blender doesn`t recognize settings. It`s always a pleasure to export a mesh twice because you forgot to untick "Selection only"

    The biggest laugh is always when i want to delete something. I mean i already have selected an element. So i want to delete the selected element to 120% , and not being asked what method i prefer, or if i by chance want to merge or collapse or what else i want to do instead of simply deleting the selected item. That`s a nagscreen par excellence.

    I don`t think you are a moron. You manage to make your money with Blender. But you cannot interpolate from that to say that professionals have to use Blender. They have their very valid reasons to use the big boys instead. And they are the common ones with that. You are the exception here. And even you need to combine Blender with other tools like ZBrush and 3DCoat to get your job done, right? I am pretty sure that there are better* tools for the rest of your pipeline out there too. But it seems that the pressure to produce best quality in shortest time isn`t this big for you here. Which is fine. But not common.

    * In terms of faster and easier workflow, more accurate result, or possible at all.

    But it`s the truth. Provable at every common 3D community. Have a look what tools gets used at Polycount, have a look what tools gets used at CGTalk. Those two are the main boards where you meet professionals. Have a look at the jobs section at Blender Artist. 157 threads in 18 months. We better don`t look closer at the offers, but it`s at least a few. Means nowadays you can replace not used by rarely used. But those are exceptions. It is still true. Blender gets rarely used in the industry. That`s a fact.

    I don`t want to talk Blender bad, it is definitely not. Blender is good. It can do the job. I know that. I`m a Blender user by myself. And i love it. But that`s at the same time the reason why i know about its weak areas. I still model outside because of the weak polygon modeling tools in Blender. And the better is the enemy of the good. That`s why Blender is mainly a hobby tool, and Max mainly a professional tool.

    My main concern here was and is this "there`s no difference between Blender and Max". There is a difference between Blender and Max, a big one.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  12. nipoco

    nipoco

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    You can simply create export presets in the export window.

    Yes because Blender isn't the best for sculpting and texture painting. But that is something you really don't have to worry about, because even with 3ds Max or Maya, you still need dedicated sculpting and texturing software.
    For modeling, UVing, rigging and animation however, Blender does a fine job for me. I have Maya and it's cumbersome as modeling tool compared to Blender. And I don't think I'm slower modeling something in Blender than in Max for example. It's all a matter of your experience and training.
    Take Zbrush as example. If you think that Blender is bad in it's workflow and interface, you have yet to try Zbrush. Never saw such a ridiculous 3d software where even saving a file is from outer space. Not to mention the naming of certain things. (A model is called "subtool" for example... what the heck?)
    And yet people make the craziest and most awesome stuff with it. It's not user friendly if you use it the first weeks. But it's powerful. And so is Blender.

    You first have to define what is "the industry". Because for me, Unity games development, or indy game development in general is also a part of the games industry and Blender is used a lot there. Probably more than Max, or Maya.

    But if you mean big game studios like Bioware, or Bethesda, well you know, there are a lot factors why Blender isn't used that much in that industry. I like the statement of Redbeer a page back which explains one of those reasons.
    But I can tell you, it is not because Max or Maya are so damn superior compared to Blender. There are people that still use ancient versions of XSI, Maya or Max, because AD screws each and every update with bloated S***.
    And Blender get's there. Slowly but steadily. At least if you look at PC. CGtalk is full hypocrites anyways.

    Yes I agree. But the difference is smaller than you might think. Not worth to pay almost $4k for it. At least for me. There are cheaper workarounds.

    What Blender really misses for games development, is the ability to alter vertex normals, to export smoothing groups the right way, a fbx importer which actually works, lighmap baking with GI, cage baking and a better viewport performance. Not all of these things are needed tho. At least for Unity. But to make it a "Industry standard" tool.
    Other than that it's pretty much on par with Max. You could argue that Max has some more fancy modeling tools and modfiers here and there. But that is minor workflow stuff that is achievable in Blender as well. At least in my humble opinion.
    I can't really agree that Blender has weak polygon modeling these days. Especially with the last version of Blender.
     
  13. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Thanks for the hint. Which shows me that i picked the wrong example. And now the same for the tools please. Texture painting for example :)

    You do it again, you declare all professionals to morons :D

    It`s the opposite, the difference is bigger than you think. In direct competition and when Blender would be a commercial app, then Blender would be at the lower end of Middleware, comparable with tools like Carrara or Shade3D, while Max would still be the industry standard.

    Blender has reached the power of Max 2006 or 2007 at the moment. But Max is at 2014 nowadays. They also evolve. And as told, they evolve faster than Blender. Because there is a completely different pressure behind a commercial development where the main goal is to make the user happy. While at open source development the main goal is to make the developer happy.

    The Industry is that part where you get paid for making graphics. And that`s where Blender is not present. Just exceptions here and there. I already provided facts to that twice. See already named forums. The good thing at facts is that they are provable. And cannot be discussed away :)

    But i can. I model outside for good reason ;)
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  14. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Not really. I talked about some people at CGtalk. Not about all pros, which I belong to as well. And there is a difference between hypocrites and morons.


    Care to show some exact practical examples where this applies?

    That's not what I see.
    AD's development is really slow and each upgrade comes with new bloated half arsed stuff. (See Maya's early Nex integration for example).
    Blender has a bi monthly launch cycle. AD has a yearly one...
    As bigger a company gets, as much slower and inflexible it gets. Blender made big leaps in two years. Now take a look how much Max evolved in that time span...

    I don't see any proven facts here, sorry. All you get from your assumption, these forums reflect entire industries, is a distorted view. And you absolutely underestimate the usage of Blender in commercial projects. By far...
    Don't do the same mistake you did, when you were so damn certain that Adobe CS2 is a legal download for everyone. You have a opinion that is fine. But that doesn't make it a fact :)

    Besides that. It does not really matter how much Blender is used in the industry, since that does not indicate how good or bad a software is. There are way more factors than that. Most people simple have no choice. It's a circle you can't break.
    See Linux. It is one of the most stable and flexible operating systems you can get, used for servers, workstations and what not. And still Windows dominates the world of the average user. Definitely not, because it is so great.

    On a side note.
    I don't get why you picked up that discussion again. Especially if you're a hobbyist with obviously no practical experience in commercial 3d apps? What does it matter for you?

    Make your game or whatever and be happy. Judging from your gallery, you're a good artist who couldn't care less about Max or Maya. :)

    You really don't need a $4k software to make awesome stuff for Unity.
     
  15. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    This sounds like a contradictory statement. If Blender is not present at this level, then there would be no room for the "here and there." Industry as it's defined is the production of goods, and services of which any production method may be applied. In the entertainment industry you have a large community of artists, actors, and producers all of which provide their services to television, games and movies. The same applies to game development, and other productions requiring services in 3D modeling, animation, visual effects, video editing, song, and music writing. The idea that Blender doesn't exist on this level is absurd if you have been presented with even just one individual who has provided you the proof that they have provided their services using Blender and have been paid for professional quality work.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  16. goat

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    I stick by recommending Blender. Anyone in these forums asking that type question doesn't have $3500 to buy Maya or Max so if you recommend them at least give examples or your work and a link to AutoDesk University so they can get educational versions to use (educational = amateur non-professional use).

    If they are wanting to publish a game they'll loose interest because they can't use the Max/Maya output but if they are interested in 3D modeling professionally then at least send them on the proper path.
     
  17. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Instead of being defensive, read again what I posted. I am saying the default UI scares people AWAY from what is otherwise a capable app. The default UI is *stupid*. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have changed it.

    Someone at blender needs to get that sorted, if Blender is to have more support from artists, which otherwise would turn their noses up at it. I found it it be a capable app (as I said), if the UI is tweaked.
     
  18. Maxtor

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    It was always my understanding that Blender has a large community of modders who write plug-ins for the program since it's open-source. I'm not sure if that ever was or even is the case. If it is I'm surprised that no one has worked on a per-release plug-in for each version released by the developers. Just taking a look over at the Blender Artists Community shows me they have one heck of an active community.

    Edit: I also just started working in Blender after my interest in this thread. I'll be honest about my experience after the first hour. Before I proceed though I should mention my experience stems from an environment focused on using Maya, and other Autodesk products, and the workflow integration between them.

    Blender's UI isn't that bad to be honest. It has a smaller feel to it which is where I think it starts to become a bit of a cluster considering there are a lot of menus and shortcuts I'm not familiar with. I wasn't entirely sure how to navigate the scene view or even select vertex points, edges, or faces without having to consult tutorials, or help documentation. I think if you're familiar with a specific program it definitely starts to get confusing. I'm still going through documentation to try and learn it.

    I think having a proper understanding of Blender will require me to work within it for a while. I'd rather this than to base my responses off of my base knowledge of the program from third party sources. I kind of like it, and from everything I'm watching is seems Blender offers a lot of features that were just implemented in the new 2014 release of Maya, and 3DS Max.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  19. Redbeer

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    Being defensive? That's quite a read in there...

    The larger point is that if having a couple extra windows open scares someone off, I'm surprised they can use any program, including Max, Maya, XSI, etc. Of course for those programs there is incentive to bite the bullet and deal with it because many artists are competing for the handful of jobs at the big studios which use all the AutoDesk software. So even if the AutoDesk stuff is equally confusing, they'll put up with learning it because they see it as a vehicle to a job.

    In other words, the default UI is stupid, in most multipurpose applications, but people will put up with it if the perception is that learning the software is of use to their career. In the end you need to learn how the program works. To do that, with any program, you have to be willing to not be comfortable and fumble around at first.
    That said, my modified UI is terrible for learning the program, it's just better to work in that way when you learn the hotkeys.
    I do the same in Zbrush, but I didn't learn to use the program that way.
     
  20. Maxtor

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    I wager that the only reason any program might be confusing is based on the lack of experience within said program. In the very small amount of time I've now worked with Blender it's becoming clearer, and clearer to me how to use it. Take a look at Maya's UI and I'm sure someone who has never used it might have a difficult time working with it at first. Heck, even 3DS Max is somewhat alien to me considering they're now both Autodesk Products. I'm waiting for the improbable day they release a new product similar to XSI that includes Maya, 3DS Max, and MudBox in one multipurpose application. I'd prefer that than a suite of tools, or a subscription based plan. Heck, even if they asked for the almost 7000+ price tag that Maya alone used to have I would still buy it.
    (Context: Autodesk used to offer a Complete, and Unlimited version of Maya)

    I've never had an issue learning Maya. Understand though I had training in the use of Maya. With Blender it seems you simply need to consult documentation provided by other sources, and video, or written tutorials to get a grasp of how to do something. Blender isn't that difficult to work with. All I needed was to use Google.

    Also, does this look like an intimidating UI to you!? :p

    Note:
    I tend to customize my UI as well so this isn't the default UI. Just as it seems in Blender, the UI is very customizable, including custom shelves, and an MEL script that allows you to create your own scripts, and plug-ins for Maya. (Experience in Python recommended)

    Attachment below:

    $197G6u8.png

    More notes: Those who own EDU licenses which are normally distributed to students nowadays by schools... Your EDU license can be upgraded for 3/quarters the amount of money it costs to buy a single node locked license from Autodesk. It saves you a few hundred dollars if your school provided for the cost of Maya.

    EDU licenses may not be used for commercial purposes. Buy your software, and obtain commercial status. Or, have your job provide the software for you.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  21. goat

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    Well, I figured Blender out without any background in 3D modeling but having previously 'tried' the educational versions of MAX / Maya to are so 'easy' due to their 'advanced' and 'intuitive' menus.

    I got nowhere trying to use Maya's and Max's intuitive menus to make 3D modeling easy, because it isn't. Searching for nice tutorials for beginners led me to Blender, again and again. The Max/Maya community has less incentive to train competitors as they are likely employed and paid rather well while the Blender community is mostly hobbyists.

    And while some may scoff at hobbyists most scientific discoveries where the work of hobbyists from Newton and before to Einstein. Making no claims for myself, I think the better average modelers will soon be originally self-trained using Blender. And no, I'm not trying to place hobby game writing or 3D modeling in league with the utility of Newton's or Einstein's scientific work.

    And while it was a hassle to learn the Blender shortcuts, once learned, they are more comfortable then constantly messing around with the Maya/Max menus. Besides which I can use my work in my published games if I like with Blender as I definitely can't afford Max/Maya.
     
  22. Tiles

    Tiles

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    It applies for example to many many professional high quality plugins that are just available for Max, and not for Blender. But i already mentioned that one before. And got ignored. So i doubt that you will pick up this argument now.

    Because you ignore them heavily.

    I dunno if it is really better to have a this quick release cycle. Blender has a very fast development cycle, that`s true. And i just love to download the daily builds to be at the pulse of development. But it is also super fast with introducing bugs and breaking tools. And this can also be found in the workflow then. One hour work, one hour finding out what bug causes the current malfunction, followed by the bug report. There were times where you could nearly follow me at the Bugtracker when i had Blender open.

    And Blender is still years behind. So it doesn`t really matter at what pace Blender evolves as long as it doesn`t catch up with the Big Boys.

    Ah, CG Talk and Polycount are hobbyists forums then? Okay. Good to know :D

    But what about the lack of commercial offers at the Blender forums then? Now i am curious how you will try to discuss this one away :)

    And now we reach the chapter of personal attacks. I just waited for that. Why do you take it this personal that you need to use dirty tricks? The CS2 discussion does not belong here. Your assumption that i was wrong is wrong. And i provided facts, not opinions. What software gets used in the industry can be seen at the forums like CGTalk, Polycount, and most at the Blender forums themselves.

    Besides that. The CS2 download was super legal up to the point where Adobe did put the "please don`t download this software, even when we provide the full version and the key for it, and promise not to hunt you for using it" sign in front of the door. And even now this whole thing is so spongy that i highly doubt that it is illegal to download and use it. There are no barrers, there are no needs to do anything illegal to get the software to run. Nothing. And what about i download "Photoshop" and not "CS2" from this page? Adobe definitely doesn´t care about CS2 anymore.

    There`s one thing that i really hate. Whe somebody tries to make me quiet. This usually raises my voice even more ;)

    It does matter in the same way to me as it matters to you. I have a view and a opinion at the topic. And i want it to share. I have the same right to discuss about this issue than you do. To state that Blender and Max plays in the same league and that there is no difference is simply nonsense to me, so i entered the discussion again, and provided somef facts and arguments. That`s what a discussion is made for.

    Oh, so you play the "I`m the professional" card here? Well. I am a hobbyist, that`s right. But that doesn`t mean that i have never used any commercial 3D app in my life. I do 3D since a pretty while. I was even a beta tester to one of them. Now what? Who has the longer dick now? ;)

    That`s irrelevant anyways. This discussion is not about the longer dick here. It`s about Blender and if there is a difference to Max. Well. The one is the leading industry standard software. The other the leading hobby tool. And that`s already a monsterbig difference without even looking at the features. I don`t need to be a professional to see that difference :)
     
  23. goat

    goat

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    I did point out the important difference and addressed to the 'OP' and as noted in this thread these type questions are so naïve recommending Blender is the most sensible answer. Of course a lawyer or professional would have gone on to mention Max and Maya and proceeded give the link to Autodesk University in the event the 'OP' was interested in being hired by EA, for example, and not simple producing low-poly FBXes to use in their games.

    You ignored my statement implying that being a hobbyist or using hobbyist software automatically makes the work of a hobbyist inferior to that of a professional when Newton and Einstein were two very famous hobbyists.

    As for myself I can only note that the work I produced myself in Blender was usable in Unity while the professional models I bought at TurboSquid, some produced in Max, others in Maya, were not, and required much corrective work in Blender before use. That's not to say all professional models are junk, I have licensed professional models that work in Unity at much greater expense. That modeler used LightWave for those models but has since switched to Maya.

    Internally I don't know the mathematics and data structures of building 3D models to comment on which is more clever or correct except you can create an infinite number of equations with the same result of 1 and if they both result in 1 why worry about it? As I had computer graphics course in college I know this is more about cleverly defining data structures and their use than the difficulty of pure advanced mathematics and if you are exporting as FBXes then the data structures are already commonly defined by Autodesk.

    So I have to thank Autodesk for the FBX definition. And Autodesk University is definitely cool as is the educational licensing that makes it possible for 'starving artists' and students to learn Maya and Max. If it gets you a sustenance wage and avoids $100K in student loans try it. And since Blender is open source one would be silly to think the engineers at Autodesk don't look at Blender code and adapt some portions where it makes sense.
     
  24. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I still don't see, or saw any examples from you that that would justify your claims:

    or
    I don't even know how you're be able to come up with those comparisons??

    High quality plug-ins exclusively for Max? Yes there are some awesome plug-ins and software like Fume, Realflow, Hairfarm etc. But that is third party stuff and does not ship with your bare version of Max.
    And Blender has also some really neat plug-ins like the F-tools, Quick preferences, UDK exporters, BSurfaces etc. Enough stuff to work with Blender on a professional level when it comes to games.

    I still don't see a single example which shows me that Max is far more superior for game asset creation over Blender.
    Like I said earlier. There are some things in Blender that are still missing (most issues getting adressed tho). Like vertex normals editing, and cage baking. But none of them is a big showstopper. Especially for Unity.
    And hearing Blender's modeling is not good, let me wonder if you actually tried Blender's modeling recently?

    But you have no facts. All you do is, to refer to forums. Please share the documents/links with us, that substantiate Blender is not used in commercial projects as you claim.
    And don't come up with "But on forum X they said this and that" Nobody cares.
    Opinions are like bum-holes. Everyone has one. And so it is on these forums. That does not give you a representative view about Blender, or any other 3d app. And if you look at Polycount, you will see that a lot pro's use and like Blender.

    Do you know how much bugs and issues are introduced with new versions of Autodesk suites? And do you know how long it usually takes until AD fixes those?

    Obviously not. Because otherwise you would not say that...

    And btw. there are features in Blender that Maya or Max didn't, or don't have. Take the grease pencil as example. Maya got that by default in the 2014 edition. AD and a lot of it's users bragged about that, as would it the reinvent of the wheel. Before that, you've had to use a third-party plug-in.
    Blender however, has that already for years. Just one example..
    In Blender, you've got a lot democracy. You can vote for features. Find developers on your own. Try that with Autodesk! They put slowly new features into their suites, so that they have enough to update over the coming years. They don't listen much to their customers. They care only about profits.
    You always refer to CGtalk and PC. Go and look there, how many pro's complain about AD's update policy and the poor feature implementation of new products.

    Who said that CG talk and Polycount are hobbyist forums? Don't put words into my mouth,I've never said. These forums are open for everyone, you know. Hobbyists and pro's alike. It's not some elitist thing.
    And to put this into further context. Only a tiny fraction of all industry professionals are actually on these forums.

    And again. A forum is not an indicator for the commercial usage of a software. I barely get jobs through forums. I even don't look much at Blenderartists, because I don't care. I don't see myself as a Blenderhead. I care only about software that fit's my needs. If blender does not meet my requirements, I use something else. Even AD software.

    Besides that, most employer don't go through forums. I just looked at this forum, after you mentioned it. It has 158 threads at the time being. For a forum that only is for Blender specific jobs and which is only there for around a year, this is pretty good.

    Oh please... Don't be silly.
    You simply were wrong there, with your flawed arguments. And so you are here. In fact it's pretty much the same issue. You do assume a certain scenario simply based on your lack of knowledge.

    I hope you're not serious here...
    You always come up with your straw man arguments. And your so called facts are vague personal ideas of how things work in reality. It does not matter if you've ever used commercial apps, or how long you're into 3d. What matters is what you actually saying here.
    I wouldn't say that I'm a 3d guru who knows everything. But I know that Blender is good enough to create high grade models, animations and rigs, on the same level as Max.

    And for which commercial package you've been beta testing? Max. Maya, XSI, Modo, Lightwave, C4D? Hopefully you don't mean packages like Daz, Shade, or Truespace. Because that is the stuff, that is actually mostly for hobbyists.


    And that sentence alone shows your ignorance. The OP asked about the differences in the 3d packages. Not what is used in the industry and what not. He already knew that, as he stated.

    But I see, the industry usage is apparently more important to you, rather than the feature set. That makes sense... Especially here, where all people looking for a job in a big game studio, where AD software still rules..
    And btw. you're wrong again with your assumption Blender is just a hobbyist tool, not used in the industry.

    Furthermore, nobody want's to make you silent, or disallow you to argue here. The problem is, you talk a lot stuff that is simply not true, starting with the export "issue" in Blender, and some other technical things, going further with the allegedly non-usage of Blender in commercial projects.
    They've been several good points from different people here that disprove your flawed arguments. And yet you fight your stance and ignore that.

    Talking about "discussion things away"... Try to discuss these links away.

    Rhythm and Hues artist Sean Kennedy with their recently won Academy award. Notice his shirt.

    Australian commercial entirely done in Blender

    Another commercial done in Blender

    A recent Blender Render

    Blender animation

    Illustrations done in Blender for Microsoft

    iOS game which art was completely done in Blender

    I know these examples are a bit VFX and movie heavy. But since you came up with the VRay stuff (which is not much relevant for games) I guess it is okay. And btw. The Foundry tried to acquire Cycles as Renderer for Nuke, the top industry compositing software.

    These examples above are just the pro's in top of my head who work with Blender. Not to mention the huge number of indie game studios such as Subvert games etc. ,who uses Blender.

    Eventually I have no reason to keep that discussion going because you are obviously stubborn. I use Blender in a professional environment, as a lot others do.
    If you have problems to acknowledge that, well that is your problem not mine. I make my money anyways.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
  25. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    "

    Sorry for deleting parts of your response Goat, but you have an interesting point in these two parts of said response. It seems that a large part of educational material is either purchased or available for free online somewhere in one way or another for Maya, and 3DS Max. However, in education, the incentive of the teacher is to teach their students how to accurately use these program since each is equally capable of producing content for both film, and games. This tends to take place in an professional environment much to the liking of say Autodesk's Masters program, The Gnomen Workshops masters class, or any traditional trade education from technical or art schools. This is to prepare students for the environment they will be working in which is comprised mostly of other artists who have learned how to use either Maya or 3DS Max for game, television, or movie development.

    Also sorry to dissect your response Tiles. Blender has actually harbored features natively which were just recently introduced in only the 2014 release of Maya. This comes from from a basic understanding of Blender and it's vanilla releases after only an entire day of using it for the first time. Blender has offered features to the hobbyist, and, in some cases free plug-ins (just like is provided for Max, AND Maya) a way to service other production methods in a professional manner.

    In regards to Blenders commercial offers forums. Not all commercial aspects of a project are disclosed. Especially not if that company is private. Not everyone who uses Maya, frequents the CGTalk forums for Jobs. I've applied my own resume with the only parties aware of it being the parties I've introduced to my resume. Have you no concept of professionalism within a social network? Information is kept private, by most employers in the 3D art industry.

    I'm guessing you didn't read my response on what, and how industry is, and works. :( You would have a much better argument should you have an understanding of Industry.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
  26. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Yes that is what I also said in my last post.
    He either don't know much about Maya, Max and/or he simply won't acknowledge certain things.

    That's a good point.

    Yes, but he doesn't, obviously :)
     
  27. nipoco

    nipoco

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    @Maxtor

    Btw. Are you on CGhub or Polycount? Your nick sounds quite familiar.
     
  28. Maxtor

    Maxtor

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    Hello Nipoco, While I frequent both I am not a member of either. Though I have considered joining Polycount, it seems they have a much less active community of which to share an interest in.. :(

    I do however frequent http://www.game-artist.net/forums/ as a lurker. To be honest it seems as if the interest in this trade peaked at it's height, and died just as quickly. Unless of course you have a job... Preferably in the field you were trained in.
     
  29. goat

    goat

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    Oh, I've seen parts of much of the Max/Maya tutorials on YouTube material and it isn't to my liking. I'm sure there are nice shortcuts but why if I am not going to purchase Max or Maya?

    The most cohesive set of online free and current tutorials for someone actually wanting maximize their chances of 3D modeling professionally; and lets be truthful, most people don't, they just want to create a big selling game, for which photorealistic models, MAX, and Maya aren't required; is Autodesk University.

    I chose Blender as much for the personalities of the presenters of the Blender tutorials as anything else. I'd seen Blender models and knew it was sufficient for my simple needs. I don't need professional models or realistic ones either to make a fun game; I need a fun game. LOL, at least I've abandoned my abandonware before inflicting it on the crowds so far.

    I admire the really good work of 3D modelers but counter intuitively rarely the photorealistic models although that has applications in medical training that should interest those that wretch at the more vulgar abuses of realism in game models. I've also done artwork in traditional media based on my admiration of other artists' works, in my mind it's a better way of saying you appreciate their work then buying a piece from them.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
  30. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Because i am able to compare. I have used and tested quite a few apps in my life. And because i am in contact with quite a few professionals. I`m an admin of a german 3D community too.

    I have already mentioned quite a few other points. Which gots ignored as usual. And i am tired to repeat them again and again. Just to get ignored again and again.

    So let`s stay at the forums fact. Those Forums, and what gets used there, IS the fact. CGTalk and Polycount are the two main forums where you can meet professional artists from all over the world. The categories at this boards are fact. The number of users that uses Max, Maya, etc. instead of Blender there are fact. And cannot be discussed away.

    And i have even mentioned that the Blender forums itself simply lacks of commercial threads. Which is a fact. Provable. Countable. Just this one alone already leads to the conclusion that Blender plays no role in the commercial world. Else the various Blender forums around the world would contain such threads. They do not.

    But they make the difference between a hobby tool where those plugins are not available and a professional tool where those tools are in fact available. And where they enable professional work.

    What does his shirt have to do with this discussion? Is the fabric made with 3D Printing in Blender? o_O

    Anyways. Finally you did your homework at least a bit. And managed to find a few examples. Fine. Must`ve been a hard search when it took so long ;)

    Yes, Blender gets used here and there. I never said something different. But those things are still exceptions. The Blender forums are still nearly empty when it comes to job offers or job searchings. The forums where you meet the professionals are still uber dominated by artists that uses everything else but Blender. For good reason. The companies still search for artists with experience in Max, Maya, Cine and what else. But not Blender.

    I hear this "but Blender is a professional Tool. Look it gots used there and there" cheering since several years. Nearly as long as i know Blender. And since several years exactly nothing changes at that. Blender is not asked in the Industry. Useage stays exception.

    And now i am even silly? And have flawed arguments? And lack of knowledge? Again a personal attack instead counter arguments and counter facts? Again hot air and polemic instead?

    No, i am not wrong. You managed to make some money with using Blender. Fine. But you don`t see that you are the exception, even after poking your nose at the missing commercial blender threads all over the world.

    And how you act here is everything but professional. A 3D Software is a tool. Not a teddybear that needs to be defeated against the big sister. When the tool does the job, fine. When not, next tool please. That`s professional.


    Anyways. I stop here. It`s useless to go on with discussion. You split every hair down into atoms, so that it is simply impossible to answer all of your points. While you on the other hand still heavily ignore the main points. No word to why Blender forums lacks of commercial threads. And you still think that Polycount and CGTalk are hobby forums. There`s no base for a discussion then when black is white for you.

    And just to repeat myself over and over again, and to not just answer Nipoco: this doesn`t make Blender bad. This doesn`t mean that there are not things in Blender that are really useful. Or that you cannot get your things done. But that`s not the point. It`s not about WHY, about which special feature or workflow is slow or missing, it`s about that it IS. Blender is mainly a hobby tool. And Max the standard professional tool. And just to introduce another argument, it will stay this way as long as Blender is Open Source. Companies prefers closed source software because of various reasons.

    And it`s not that i hate Blender. It`s the opposite. I am a Blender user by myself. That`s why i know its strong sides and its weak sides at all. And i like it. But that doesn´t make me blind.
     
  31. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Talking about personal attacks huh!? I don't think you are in the position to assess my professionality, judging it by this discussion.
    If you think that is not professional, keep thinking that. It's not that I care much.

    Did you actually read what I wrote?


    That is funny. It sounds I've been making money with Blender occasionally. I'm not sure if you get that, but I actually make a living of off work that includes Blender in my art pipeline.
    And you obviously ignore the links I've gave you with dozens of professional Blender work. And these are not the only ones. Not nearly. It's not just "some exceptions here and there"
    Also you should read what Maxtor wrote. Because it is very true. You can deny that Blender is a professional tool. Who gives a damn. But for the sake of new users, who are curious about 3d, you should really...

    Yes exactly that. You do yourself also a big favor with that.
     
  32. goat

    goat

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    For what it's worth, I think cdunn if cdunn spents half of much time working though tutorials as it takes to write these comments he'll make a fine modeler.
     
  33. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape Moderator

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    It seems to me (as a casual observation based on redbeer's excellent replies) that apps are now going the way of games: Everyone wants the customisable experience. Going forward what we can take from it is - make it obvious to the user that it can be customised; that there's a lot of default schemes to pick from.

    I find it very hard to knock Blender's ability, just hard to migrate to from elsewhere.
     
  34. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Yes it is quite hard to get used to Blender if you come from elsewhere. I guess it's the #1 issue for a lot people migrating from other packages.
    The good part is, you can customize pretty much everything in Blender. Unlike Autodesk suites.
     
  35. horoxhoro

    horoxhoro

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    3dsmax have been used in the industry bcos of the community user...alot big company they already invested the licenses will they just throw away like tat?3dsmax is old fashion....I from 3dsmax to blender..blender by 10 miles away...Blender FTW!!!!! and the cycle render its so awesome....and tis all free...
     
  36. FuzzyQuills

    FuzzyQuills

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    Sorry to wake an old thread, but here is my pinion on both of them:

    Blender - Simply awesome. it was the first 3D modeller I used, starting with 2.4, then I moved onto 2.6x, and became very accustomed to the 90% hot-keyed interface! In fact, my experience in blender means that if one of you were to tell me to model something, say, a car, I could do it under 3 hours in blender! Again, my opinion, so take most of this as a grain of salt.

    3DS Max - totally ass-upwards! when I was told I needed to use 3DS Max for school, it was an absolute nightmare trying to find where the heck everything was! it wasn't all bad food, though, as the hair does look a lot better out of the box than blender's, but still, 3DS max has everything either hidden, or in the craziest places.

    So there you go. I don't recommend switching from blender to max, as it is an absolute pain in the butt to do. If you know how to use max, use that. if you use blender, stick with that, max is too hidden from blender users to be useful for making any professional models. also, blender is free, while max is too full of stupid license issues for commercial use.
     
  37. Rinoa_Heartilly

    Rinoa_Heartilly

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    In short the main difference between 3ds Max and Blender is the money. The money Blender Foundation has, the money Autodesk has and the money you have. :p
     
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  38. FuzzyQuills

    FuzzyQuills

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    @Rinoa_Heartilly: thank you! :D As for 3ds max, I looked over this thread again, and Goat posted about 3ds max lacking tutorials. sure, blender sometimes lacks tuts for advanced things, but 3ds max has got almost NOTHING when it comes to tutorials, and digging through the online help didn't, er, help either... o_O (and that's a bad pun! :p)

    So that's why I am sticking with blender. and for the record, I just kept the default interface settings, other than switching the theme to something that looked nicer, and easier to work with.
     
  39. Rinoa_Heartilly

    Rinoa_Heartilly

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    Yeah Blender suprised me also, seriously how can a free software be that good? xD I see people are doing amazing things with Blender.
    About 3dsMax it does has tutorials though you can search "3ds max tutorial" on Youtube there's a lot of them.
     
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  40. jRocket

    jRocket

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    One big difference that is important for Unity developers is that Blender's FBX workflow is shoddy. If you ever want to export blendshapes, you're screwed. Want to properly import an FBX file into Blender? Good luck with that.
     
  41. Tiles

    Tiles

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    Nope. The short is: Max is mainly used by professionals. Blender is mainly used by hobbyists. And there is a good reason for this.
     
    supernat likes this.
  42. Rinoa_Heartilly

    Rinoa_Heartilly

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    I don't see any differences between your point and mine Tiles, "the good reason for this" is money :p hobbyists just won't spend too much money for a hobby and professionals most likely will spend money to buy the better tool.

    JRocket: yup import FBX into Blender is painful xP I have a way: import fbx to 3ds max and export to Open Collada DAE, works most of the time but then you'll need 3ds Max :p
     
  43. Zenchuck

    Zenchuck

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    Only difference is Blender is better :)

    If you invest the time/money to learn/buy Max you are not going to admit you could be doing exactly the same thing in a free program.
     
  44. Tiles

    Tiles

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    And you can surely backup this by facts :)
     
  45. FuzzyQuills

    FuzzyQuills

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    Or you could convert FBX to collada with a free tool. there is probably a decent one out there. (Isn't bit turn able to do this?)
     
  46. alanpgoodwin

    alanpgoodwin

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    Max/Maya is for a closed community of "professionals". They're used by pros because they were available first and pros don't like change as the time to learn new stuff encroaches on time to make "product" which can be sold for profit. Pros will lay out money to preserve their comfort zone and save time reading docs. In short: spend money to save time and avoid change.

    Blender is for an open community of all types. It's used by all types as it is free and has most of the functionality of the "Pro" packages and changes organically and quickly to cater to new ideas. Blender users will use their time to engage in development and embrace change as they are aware of the value of such. Autodidacticism is at the heart of Blender users. In short: spend time to eliminate cost and encourage change.
     
  47. FuzzyQuills

    FuzzyQuills

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    @alanpgoodwin: Agreed, sir! I am a very happy blender user, and actually find 3DS max really messed up at times... :D
    Of course, no 3D software will fix bad modelling skills! :) Mine aren't too bad, but I could do better with some things, nameably cars... :D
     
  48. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape Moderator

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    You seem to have some sort of bias against professionals (and anyone not using blender) and some sort of hero worship/special club going on for anyone who happens to be using Blender, which is kind of absurd.

    I'd suggest not being so biased in future and be a little more open minded. Actually, make that any kind of open minded. It'll help you get further in life. Autodidacticism? practice what you preach.

    Oh yeah, guess what? some professionals use Blender and hobbyists use Maya. The world isn't what you seem to think it is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2014
  49. FuzzyQuills

    FuzzyQuills

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    @hippocoder: what you just said is correct, as anyone's game dev toolkit is purely based on user preference. IMO, having everything free where possible is the way I go, due to the fact that not all of us are millionaires... ;)

    And that is also why this statement:
    I agree with! Believe me, I am probably the only 3DS Max hater around here. (And that was because of a school assignment going a bit wrong once... :D)
     
  50. Brenden9870

    Brenden9870

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    The main reason is that blender is open source and the industry can't risk having destroyed or discontiuned software down the road. It is much safer for them do give money to a company that will survive for many years to come. Other than that when you compare the autodesk products to blender, the user make the final product and the tool asists them. Blender or maya or any autodesk product for that matter it is just personal preference.
     
    Rinoa_Heartilly likes this.