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What is the best way to secure your game's files?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by impheris, May 17, 2022.

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  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    If dependency is artificial, then the hacker will comment out the place where your first script starts the dependency chain, and the game will work without it.
     
  2. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Does not mean that steps against that shouldn't be taken. Plus as @Ryiah has mentioned, DRM is good for delaying the problem, allowing the initial sales to flow in.

    The gaming worlds version of "paid in exposure" :D.
     
  3. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    This is a myth. People who pirate games do not intend on actually buying the game in the first place.
     
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  4. LicenseSpring

    LicenseSpring

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    Hello, Free for basic license checks and activations, where you're just issuing perpetual, trial or time-limited licenses, which is usually sufficient for indie game developers. We do also handle Bundles, add-ons, SSO etc which can also be handy...
     
  5. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Does not have anything to do with creating an initial roadblock for those people. Yes, those who just don't pay for games are simply going to wait, but those who intend to pay can be swayed if the game is available elsewhere.
     
  6. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Those who intend to pay but are also willing to pirate are so insignificant in quantity that you're not going to see any practical benefit from these methods compared to their implementation costs. These things are effectively a non-issue, which is fundamental to understanding how DRM and similar methods exist as an industry but not a meaningful product.
     
  7. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    It depends on their reason, though.
    If a dev prices the product too high, refuses to sell to some group/region, makes the process incredibly convoluted, the product of said dev will be pirated.
     
  8. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Which are all pretty severe edge cases, honestly. None of this really amounts to much when discussing the fact that the vast majority of piracy happens entirely because of people who have no interest in purchasing the product. In the case of regional issues, for instance, what you'll see are metrics from that specific region and that's something actionable.

    But that action really isn't gonna be "okay, the answer is DRM" because DRM is a fundamentally flawed exercise that only slows things down at most. There's a reason you never really hear of DRM success stories even in industry conversations.
     
  9. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    How is this any different to me checking for valid user accounts with attached licenses via whatever existing backend I have?

    And the meat of that question really comes down to, how does your product / service stop people from modifying the client app and doing whatever they want anyway? The license check is not and never has been the hard part. The hard part is stopping dishonest users from just ignoring that, and to the best of my knowledge, and from observations of big players who've invested many millions into this, Murgilod posted the only workable answer right at the start of the thread.
     
  10. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Truth to be told, none of those seem like actual good reasons for piracy (as if there could be any to begin with). A high price, say for region A is not going to be that high for region B. Availability/unavailability of a product in certain regions is largely moot in current day and age due to a myriad of technologies, services and websites that would allow the customer to purchase the game regardless of its exclusivity. And purchases being complex...well, that's a new one.
    I understand that you're not trying to justify piracy and are just providing reasons for why some players pirate games, make no mistake, but truth is that all of the percieved reasons to pirate (regardless of how popular they are or not) are just excuses for piracy, rather than a valid reason.

    The only actual case for piracy (piracy in the legal sense) is "abandonware", which is a vague concept that does not have any legal standing whatsoever but is considered justifiable by some.

    Correction: DRM is a concept that slows things down in its current execution. There been forms of DRM that were not slowing things down, however, they weren't accomplishing the task they were supposed to and were not so quickly abandoned.

    Because it's a dry, highly technical, boring topic. No industry conversation is going to be like "yeah guys, here we use these and these protocols to facilitate that and here is that module that is used in conjunction with thing A to verify thing B, uhh, any questions?". Besides it is not really possible to tell the success story of a DRM solution as you would need to have two numbers: the precise number of people that are going to pirate the game and total sales. The first number could be approximated, the second number is going to be accurate, but the only way to make a valid comparison would be if the same project got sold/"sold" twice to the same customerbase and piratebase while a DRM solution would be implemented after the sales of the first sale/"sale" attempt.
    You could try selling for example Game A Part 1 without DRM, take in all the numbers and then use a DRM solution for Game A Part 2 and compare the changes in the percentage of people who paid/pirated, but that is still not going to be convincing from a purely technical perspective (for management types it's going to be though).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
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  11. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I don't think that's what Murg meant. I think what Murg meant was that we don't hear celebrations of DRM working. I haven't once heard anything even remotely close to "we used this approach tool / system for DRM and after X month we still have no cases of piracy. Big win!"

    Consoles take a while to crack, and usually require users to modify their hardware, so there's some amount of success if your product is relevant to those markets. Sometimes a new DRM system takes a while to crack the first time it's used, I think one in the early 2000s even took a few months.

    Also back in the early 2000's I recall one which often went undetected for a while, because it soft-locked games instead of hard-locking them. That is, it'd let you play, but after a while it started messing with you by making things harder and harder to control or buffing enemies more and more. I've no idea the impact it had on piracy, but I do recall hearing that it gave some games bad reps for being buggy. Oops.
     
  12. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    I think it's just too bold of a statement to come out with. I mean, there are plenty of MMOs that don't have any unofficial servers, but i don't see their devs going out and saying "yeah, we defeated piracy" as there is always a possibility that the data is wrong, you know.


    True and usually it is easier to encourage console owners to update their systems firmware, providing extra leverage for the vendors.


    Sounds like managers had way too much authority over the devs and QAs.
     
  13. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    "In it's current execution?" Are you for real? DRM is likely older than you are. It is a set of technologies with history going back nearly half a century. We are not magically going to stumble upon magical DRM that does this job ideally because its very nature means there always has to be an intermediary. The moment the code is executed on the device you have already provided a point of entry.

    My point is that we do not hear the success stories because they functionally do not exist. The only DRM that "works" is entirely server side validation and even that only works because you're separating the code from the client, and even that gets reverse engineered. On top of that, the cost:benefit issues that come with server side logic put it well outside the realm of feasibility for 99% of projects.

    These are things I've actually had to evaluate in a professional context. I'm not pulling things out of my ass here, I'm speaking as somebody who actually deals with it.
     
  14. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    The criticism of the modern DRM in videogames is mainly aimed at performance issues and/or the need for constant Internet connectivity. Unless i'm missing something here, i fail to recognize what DRM being old has to do with what i've said. The DRM solutions of the past that i've mentioned failing were rather diverse: from cipher discs to verify the ownership of the software in question to something as trivial as a printed activation key inside the disc case. Those systems and many others were not really doing what they were supposed to, thus, they were swapped for what is considered DRM today and the modern solutions are bigger resource hogs than their predecessors.

    And i have not challenged that point, nor claimed that there is any magic DRM system that resolves all the related issues.
    That is true, and i've mentioned an example of that: MMOs that even after many years still don't have "private servers", the devs of which are not eager to go all out claiming that they have the solution.
    Good to know that you're knowledged on the subject then but my message was not "one day we're gonna have a perfect DRM system guys!" but "the current DRM implementations are flawed, however, this does not imply that the concept is flawed as a whole".
     
  15. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    This sort of argument needs to be supported by data. I've not encountered any data regarding reasons t o piracy.

    Those things are IMPORTANT and they MATTER, that's why I brought them up.

    * Let's say you need windows OS for work. And nothing else will do. I price windows OS at $100k and make it weekly. If you don't have it, you starve. You'll pirate it.
    * Let's say that in order to launch a game you need to put pants on your head and record yourself reading bible backwards in suwahili, otherwise the software won't start. You'll pirate it.
    * Let's say the publisher refuses to sell the thing in the first place in your region. What more they go out of their way to ensure that it won't even start there. You will pirate it.
    * Let's say that publisher does sell the tool in your region, but only localized in ancient Sumerian, while making sure no other localization crosses your borders. You will pirate it.
    * Let's say the publisher sends you a mail with insults and remotely revokes license of software you bought. You will pirate it.

    The thing about digital goods is that their duplication cost is nearly zero.
    At the same time people were very well conditioned by the music industry into climbing onto moral high horse without questioning it. "You wouldn't download a car".

    We do not live in such world. There are many cases where money does not cross borders, or developers outright refuses to sell in a region.

    That's sounds like reasoning from belief here. At least to me. I find this sort of approach unproductive.
     
  16. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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  17. kburkhart84

    kburkhart84

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    My thoughts on DRM(and file protection, like against mods).... anywhere that I use the word piracy, it also refers to the whole "protect my game's resources" thing too.

    1. Piracy is gonna happen if you get any success. No DRM or measures in existence will stop that.

    2. Therefore it is not in the interest of the average indie dev to invest heavily in DRM.

    3. However, I DO believe that small and very cheap steps could be taken. This wouldn't deter piracy, but it could stop the "casual" pirate if you understand what I mean. So if doing something like enabling IL2CPP is quick and easy(and cheap or free), then it is certainly worth doing. If you were using your own engine, doing something like putting image assets into an encrypted archive could be worth doing, as it would stop like 99% of people from just directly ripping the images. And you can't stop the other 1% anyway so who cares.

    4. Someone mentioned a DRM measure being something that affects the game itself(soft lock) instead of directly blocking it. This certainly has advantages of being more "stealthy" than other DRM methods.....but you can't get around the eventual reviews(reddit comments, etc...) you are going to get about it. And even if the community responds to defend the game, the value can only go negative, the defense can only counter the negative, can't make it go positive(if you were to scale on a graph some "PR" number or something). So I don't think that method is really worth it either.

    5. The exception to #4 is if you make it more obvious that it is a form of DRM and not a bug....at this point though it is no longer "stealthy." And in any case you are still likely passing the time/money investment threshold that I mention in #3.

    6. The approach that I personally like(though I haven't actually released a game so I can't speak for the success of), is to just embrace piracy, and try to use it to an advantage. I'll likely be the guy that releases my game on at least one popular torrent site, as a full version, no DRM(as the original won't have any anyway). I don't expect to actually get more sales because of it, though some pirates say they do it as a "fully featured trial" and purchase if they like it, which I know is not something to count on. However, it could also save some headache in that you won't get bad bug reports from someone who cracked your DRM badly, or maybe added malware to it before releasing the pirate version. And if nothing else, it could get some PR karma.

    All said, I certainly understand the value of DRM for AAA. From what I've heard, AAA studios generally get a massive portion of their sales within the first few days, and there is very little tail end(unlike indies if they continue marketing, etc..., which AAA doesn't do all the time in most cases). So from that perspective I can understand why they want DRM, even if they know it is going to be cracked very quickly and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

    What too many people don't seem to understand though is that what is right for AAA level companies is quite often NOT right for that single person or small team indie creator. This applies to many decisions, ranging from game engine choices(including rolling your own), to DRM usage, to marketing strategy, to using(or avoiding) pre-made assets, and much more.
     
  18. DragonCoder

    DragonCoder

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    Very true. Already the incentive to pirate a 60$ game is likely higher than a 15-20$ indie dev one, so we have less to worry about that.
     
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  19. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    No, i'll look for an alternative. You know, free market and stuff. Not pirating.

    Or i'll just look for something else/do what fans of Asia exclusive games have been doing for years. Again, no pirating needed.

    I'll learn ancient Sumerian or am going to contact the publisher. Perhaps there are local enthusiasts of ancient Sumerian language who are going to agree to provide a translation or support for the product. Perhaps the publisher doesn't see any value in selling the product in my region. No ahoy for today.

    Lets say the Moon is now made out of cheese and you don't like cheese. You pirate some random piece of software (no).

    Duplication cost is not a legal merit for anything. If you have a product with a duplication cost of 0, well, good for you, go make a bank. Also, i think that digital distribution platforms (especially the ones that have their own infrastructure) would love to have a discussion panel on how apparently, the cost to deliver a product to a customer (including taxes) is
    :D:D:D

    So apparently recognizing the importance of copyright = being conditioned by the music industry (because it seems that copyright exists only in music...right (no again)).

    We do, ask those who has been playing Asia-exclusive games while being far away from those regions.

    Well, i mean, you kinda confirmed that with your takes on software piracy. Is suggesting that pirates look for excuses to pirate games "reasoning from belief"? To me, providing a bunch of imaginary scenarios where at the end of each, the other person in the conversation is always coaxed into piracy (for no reason whatsoever) seems just like what you find unproductive ;).
    People pirating or not pirating software is not some sort of a complex chain of reasoning where the person in question has no other choice. If something seems to be free, then those who like free stuff are going to flow in. This is why the F2P model was such a success.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
  20. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Not sure in which country you are though, free market sound like a thing for people who don't have metaphorical gun pointing on their head. The free market ain't working for Russia right now, and many part of the world. Heck the free market enforce no market elsewhere to make sure he can exist for some. So you need to be wealthy, in a wealthy place, with wealthy connections for that argument to even be workable.
     
  21. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The suggestion is that situation is gray and not black and white, as people prefer to think. Of course, thinking in black and white terms is easier, because people can assume they're the good guys and feel proud of that. Also, all examples listed are pretty much based on things that happened.

    Either way, I'm obviously not getting through, so there's no reason to continue.
     
  22. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    I used the term free market as an umbrella for having a variety of choices in general. Now when we're talking about whether certain publishers decide to make certain products available or not in certain parts of the world is up to the publisher to decide. If a publisher does not want to sell products in certain regions or does not see any incentive to, that's their decision, as noone forces them to sell a product just as noone forces the customers in the markets that the product is unavailable in to buy those products. Also, regardless of how free or non-free the market is, it is always possible to seek alternatives.

    No it doesn't. Those who participate in the free market may attempt to influence other markets, but so do the participants in the non-free markets in relation to the free markets.

    Really? Never knew that you need "wealthy connections" to look up "alternatives to Ancient Sumerian Software Pack 2" on Google or "Ancient Sumerian Software opensource" rather than "download Ancient Sumerian Software Pack 2 for free no virus".
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
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  23. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Already said that piracy is not some sort of a complex moral conundrum. If something can be gotten for free, people are going to jump at it right away.

    You are not becoming a bad guy or a good guy by buying software or arguing that perhaps, you don't really need to pirate "Fortnite Spiderman 3".

    Yeah, i too remember when Microsoft introduced the 100K USD per week Windows subscription. I've spent years translating that damn OS from Ancient Sumerian.:D
     
  24. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    I wish your ideology was the truth, I'm always looking for alternatives they never come, and even then, people have requirement that's like, no if you want to participate, you have to keep up with the jonesy. I'm pretty resourceful, If I don't have something I'll mint it myself, but good luck trying to mint a gpu or any fine tech. I'm starting to feel like those free market people are immortal who don't need to just merely survive. Same people who don't understand a car without fuel won't go far, no matter the will power of the car, or have not experienced what chronic hunger due to your brain. That blind optimism, soundbite a faery tales from here. And I'm one the lucky one, despite my situation, I know I'm among the top 20% wealthy human, and I'm below the poverty line, just the virtue of being in place with minimally decent infrastructure, like sewer and water. And I'm educated enough to even dream of making my own microchip, even though I know it's impossible, I know how and still looking for those barrier to eventually find solution (yeah I follow the then American 17 years old who made micro chip in his garage). But even with that level of craziness into hoping for the impossible, I don't see the free market matching any sort of reality, only when I was briefly in a privilege situation which is why i said what i said, so I know why you feel that way, but it's just a lack of experience to me. I know too well how fast the gates close once you are out of that world and you lose the easy leverage from it.
     
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  25. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    What software are you looking an alternative for, perhaps i could help?
    This is completely out of the scope of the current topic. You can't really find a free alternative to say a GPU because it's an inherently physical item, but you absolutely can find an alternative to Microsoft Office.
    The free market does not have to do anything with someone being "privileged" or not. When you go to a store to buy a pack of gum and you are presented with a variety of choices for all price points, regardless of your monetary status, that's the free market in action. I mean, even you being able to read this message right now is possible thanks to the same free market that you claim works only if you are "privileged".

    Sure, i understand the general gist of what you're conveying: there are different situations and all, but the thing is that people who try to bring up dime a dozen reasons for why they pirate software are not all poor. Many do that just because it's out there and it's "free" and that's about it.

    Monetary problems are awful and there is no doubt about that, but my point is not "hey, i guess everyone can pay for everything in the world".
     
  26. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    It is. You're simply pretending that this is not the case.

    For the record, originally copyright lasted 30 years, which allowed old works remixed into new creations. Then we got Walt Disney who really didn't like the idea of losing rights to Mickey Mouse, which is why he kept lobbying to extend it and slowed down reuse of the old material to build something new to crawl. As a result, at the moment we live in the world where you may be commiting piracy if you photograph a building built after 1973.

    For comparison, at the moment, a patent lasts 20 years. Which is not pleasant, but at least marching cubes are finally available to everybody.

    Very funny.

    What I was referring to is that I've seen companies one-sidedly terminate license while ignoring the losses, refusing to sell in a region, locking out a specific language out of region, and raising prices sky-high for a specific region (by a factor of 20x or, in worst cases, factor of 10000x). All those things happened, and they're not a figment of my imagination. Or there's a matter of streaming services, which also make it incredibly difficult to find a specific lanugage.

    Piracy is a matter of convenience and not price. To win your content has to be more easily accessible compared to a pirate. Dealing with pirates brings risks, as downloading content takes more disk space, and there's a matter of risk of viruses and the like.

    It is easier to click a button in steam and pay a small fee rather than hunt for a release. Make sure your clients need to do less hassle to acces your product, and there will be fewer copies pirated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  27. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    At the moment, for example, no alternatives exist for Substance Painter, Substance Designer, Marvelous Designer, ZBrush.

    Many flagship products like Fusion360, Revit, Photoshop, Maya, 3dsmax, do not have a full and complete alternative. Same goes for smaller packages like Microsoft Office. Windows OS Does not have a replacement either. There's no replacement for iPhone either.

    Now, the thing is, there are different packages that try to address the samew set of problems, but the issue is that they're not equivalent to the original. Krita, Clip Studio, Gimp are not Photoshop. Blender is not 3dsmax, maya, zbrush. Linux is not Windows. FreeCAD is not Fusion360. Android is not iOS. Or Godot is not Unity. And so on. They cannot be used to the full extent in place of original. So for an alternative to exist, there has to be a drop-in replacement. And for software which takes decades to develop this is simply not a thing that exists.

    It is not like food. It doesn't matter much where you get your food from, because in many cases it'll be mostly the same thing. Milk is Milk, as long as procedure is followed.

    And the idea of "free market" mentioned by neoshaman appear to operate on the level of raw and low technology resources. Lumber is lumber, there will be a supplier with slight differences. So competition is possible. Take an OS developer, however, and suddenly that is no longer a case. ( See where React OS is right now. ). In many cases a competitor will simply never materialize. And that's why it appears to be detached from reality.
     
  28. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I think you're confusing "piracy" with broader "copyright infringement". The latter is far more complicated and subtle than the former.

    So called "piracy" is when you copy and share a piece of media in a way which prevents the IP holder from commercially exploiting it as they desire. It's a heck of a lot simpler than you suggest in the vast majority of cases I'm aware of.

    That said, in most cases I've direct experiences of it's cultural. For instance, I used to go to LAN parties as a kid where before starting a game people just copied it from each other, as they'd been doing since the early 90s (when games often supported that). This had been normal to them for so long that it was novel (and occasionally inconvenient) when my friends and I showed up with purchased versions of stuff. The issue was that they just never questioned whether they should still be doing it as licesnes and such changed, reinforced by the reality that buying a game wasn't quick and easy back then (no Steam, etc.) even if they had wanted to, and they didn't plan in advance. To be clear, those aren't excuses, just my observed causes. They were changing by the end, but the change was slow because it wasn't about better protecting the software, it was about a) changing how they thought as a group about decades long engrained habits, and b) making the right thing more convenient (advancing digital distro helped a lot).

    But back to the point. None of this was complicated morality issues. It was purely and simply a) convenience and b) lack of concern, and is more or less in line with other situations I've been exposed to where people do the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
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  29. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Really? My point is that piracy is merely a reflection of the ""free" things are out there and i don't need to pay for them, so why care?" attitude that is not exclusive to socioeconomic status, amount of wealth held py the person in question or whether the product is available in the region or not. You claim that i'm pretending, and then you jump straight to:

    while also saying in another messages
    What does it have to do with anything? Nothing forbids someone from getting a copyright for an old IP, it's a matter of finding the copyright holder and creating a derivative work or a "remix", which would be both legal and beneficial to both that someone and the copyright holder while also being legal and protected by the law.

    That was really new to me and i decided to look that up:
    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/copyright-architectural-photos.html

    "Architectural works are protected by U.S. copyright law, specifically by 17 U.S. Code § 102(8). In fact, copyright law was officially changed in December 1990 in order to include these architectural copyrights. What does this mean for photographers who want the ability to make and sell architectural photos?
    • The law does not apply to buildings created before December 1, 1990 (so architectural photos of such works can be taken and reproduced without permission).
    • Except for buildings that cannot be viewed from a public space, the copyright owner of a post-1990 building (the architect, developer, or building owner) cannot prevent the making, distributing, or public display of pictures, paintings, photographs, or other pictorial representations of the building. See 17 U.S. Code § 120, which covers the scope of exclusive rights in architectural works.
    Therefore, photographers need to be concerned only when entering private property without permission to take a photo of a post-1990 building. Such photos may result in a claim of copyright infringement."

    Doesn't sound exactly like what you've described.o_O


    :D

    Most of what you've mentioned is in the TOS and again, not always done out of some malicious intent that for whatever reason might give a "justification" for piracy but more often than not it's a matter of market research/marketing related expenses/etc. Regional pricing is a complex topic, because of things like taxes, risks associated with certain markets, regional laws, average income, etc. Same goes for translating content.
     
  30. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Quixel?
    Material Maker? TextureLab?
    Blender?

    I can agree on manufacturing software being an example of an edge case, where there might not be an alternative to a task-specific application, but almost everything that you've mentioned has free/freeware/opensource alternatives. Almost all of what you've mentioned is a case of something that might have more features than the alternatives but at the end of the day produces the same works as their free counterparts. What you've describing is closer to "well you see, a BMW is not a replacement for a Mercedes, thus there are no alternatives to a BMW (other than a myriad of other car manufacturers)". Both Maya and Blender are capable of producing 3D models with different workflows, it's just that one is free and the other isn't.

    For an alternative to exist there must be software that accomplishes the same tasks in general that the software that an alternative is seeked for does. That's it. Whether it's "up to par", "the same" or whatever else is solely in the eye of the end user.

    You say it while using the Internet, that has a myriad of software with many alternatives that establish your day to day connection, all of which has to compete with each other to stand out and remain relevant (unless we're talking open standards).

    Look into the history of Windows and Unix and computing in general.
     
  31. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Quixel Mixer is nowhere near as mature a product as Substance Painter.

    Nor are these.

    Blender is not even remotely on par with Zbrush if you need to do a lot of high quality, high detail sculpting. I can say this safely for all these things because I've actually evaluated them in production.

    Maybe you should as well considering how Windows and Unix serve entirely different market segments even in enterprise.
     
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  32. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    No, not even close. Have you even used any of those tools?

    Comparing blender to marvelous designer specifically is just ridiculous. Use the software and see. It is obvious.

    Nothing on the list has a replacement. You have packages that attempt solve similar type of the problem, but they are not interchangeable with each other.

    False. You're trying to downplay the differences.
    It is more of "FIB is not replacement to a Mercedes". You can move around in both, but that's not what it is about.
    If you disagree, drive to the work in FIB. You might need to attach wheels to it first, though.

    The internet does not have myriad of software with many alternatives. There's usually only one software package for a specific task that is used by everybody. The rest is wannabes, hopeful competitors (that do not have a comlete feature set), and abandoned experiments.

    Well, if you're using a windows machine, you can replace it with Unix right now and see how that one goes.
     
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  33. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    Doesn't matter, as long it accomplishes the same task.

    That's great, seems like you have a lot of knowledge on both the DRM systems and how good various 3D software is in relation to each other, both in the production context. Thing is, that regardless of your evaluation of ZBrush/Blender, the point is that at the end both are still accomplishing the same task and as long as it stands true, one can be considered an alternative to another.

    What does it have to do with the point @neginfinity made (that a competitor will simply never materialize)? Both Windows and Unix as well as the "derivatives" serve two primary markets: server and "desktop" (whatever it means). It does not matter whether a Windows server is used primarily in industry A while Unix based servers are primarily used in industry B, nothing prevents to begin adopting a specific OS for specific purposes (that's how Unix got its marketshare).
     
  34. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    And they are not supposed to be interchangeable. Software vendors offer various solutions to resolve an issue. Whether one is considered better by some or not does not change the fact that they are alternatives in the respective markets of "resolving an issue".

    Whatever the "flying inflatable boat" is resolves the issues of moving on water and in air. Mercedes does not do that, it resolves an issue of moving on the ground. Those are two different solutions for different markets of "accomplishing a task".
    A correct comparison would be comparing a Mercedes to a Toyota.

    What's with all those new frameworks webdevs are constantly adopting? I thought there is only one software package for that industry!

    Regardless of what OS i would use, those remain to be alternatives, that are widely used for the same purposes that Windows is used.
     
  35. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    It doesnt acomplish the same task.

    We are power users of every single piece of software listed (both the paid and free alternatives) and I can tell you that in no way is anything you suggested an alternative. There are things that blender simply cannot do that Zbrush can. The same can be said about substance etc - have you actually used substance? If you had you would realise how crazy the gap between these products is.

    Its great to look for free or cheaper alternatives, but its also important to be realistic and understand why the industry standard products are the industry standard. Price very rarely factors into that, its all down to what the tool can and cannot do.
     
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  36. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    If they're called "alternatives", then they should be.




    There aren't alternatives. You're arguing that cats are dogs, because they're both mammals. The differences matter.

    I'm sick with high fever right now and probably will excuse myself from the further discussion. The reason I got sick, though, is because I've spent half of yesterday repairing windows install that suddenly decided to croak due to being reset at high load. Which required writing an iso to USB stick, which was not possible to do in straightforward manner on a spare linux computer I had, due to it relying on UEFI or some sort of nonsense like that, and the owner of the other computer had cold.

    That whole experience is the living testament of the differences. There aren't alternatives. Usually there's a thing that you have to stick with, and it cannot be replaced with an alternative due to the differences in behavior.

    Heck, wine project started almost 30 years ago, and it is still nowhere close to being done....
     
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  37. CityGen3D

    CityGen3D

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    I just wanted to point out that not hearing about DRM success stories doesn't mean they don't exist at all.

    In the studio I worked at we had some releases where we did successfully delay the release of stable pirate versions for a good while.
    For obvious reasons, if you have success in this area you tend not to shout about it, or your methods!

    But success really is just slowing pirates down rather than preventing it completely.
    What works one release, will not work next time, it's a constant battle.

    So for a small studio or indie dev it's just not worth worrying about.
     
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  38. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Again, this is missing the point of "success stories" and your own post shines a glaring light on the issue I have: delaying stable pirate versions is meaningless unless you can prove there is a link between piracy, lost sales, and the delay creating sales.

    This isn't about not shouting about the methods used, but the fact that we have no evidence that DRM has helped revenue at all.
     
  39. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Even after it's cracked, though?

    Moving goalposts. :p The thread's opening post specifically called out that just making it more difficult was ok as 100% protection isn't possible. And it's about securing a game's files, which isn't necessarily about piracy.
    And the quoted post is clear about what they'te calling success. Though if it's anti-hacking or whatever the term "DRM" isn't typically used, to be fair.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  40. CityGen3D

    CityGen3D

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    For sure, it's very difficult to prove a correlation one way or another and for smaller titles it's not worth worrying about like I said, because the cost of implementing a solution will likely not be offset by any gain anyway.

    However for large titles that will sell hundreds of thousands of copies on day one, it was considered worthwhile given the stats we had at our disposal over the years.
     
  41. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    It's not moving goalposts, it's specifically about what I've said repeatedly in this thread, even down to the "success stories" part.

     
  42. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    You're more likely to piss people off than gain any benefit from this lol.

    People rip games to shreds all the time, only excuse for obscurity is avoiding spoilers, or ARG.

    At the very least the resulting youtube video and exploration of your game will generate some attention and sales :p
     
  43. gjaccieczo

    gjaccieczo

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    I've explained my point in every single way possible and i'll stand by it: yes, a software package might not live up to your expectations, but as long as it's in the same field of work (e.g. 3D modeling) it is an alternative regardless. I have nothing else to say.

    @neginfinity, that's disheartening to hear, get well soon!
     
  44. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    So, cats are dogs because they're both mammals. *sighs*
    I see this position as unreasonable and see no point to continue discussing it
    I do recommend to try "alternative" you suggested. Maybe you'll eventually see what the problem is.

    On the flip side, sleeping with high fever produces imagery that would put MidJourney to shame. It is unfortunate, that there's no way to save or share it, however.
     
  45. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Notepad.exe is an alternative to everything. ;)

    (Because this is the internet, I'll point out that this is in fact sarcasm.)
     
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  46. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I actually did use Notepad to make 3D models for a Starfox inspired game for a while in the mid 2000s.
     
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  47. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    You have to admit that entering binary data through alt-codes is a tiny bit awkward in the beginning, though.
    But certainly this is something that can be easily overcome with determination, patience and practice.
     
  48. GimmyDev

    GimmyDev

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    1. Piracy IS free market, legality and morality as no bear on economic dynamics. The way steam and music industry finally got the upper hand was by being more convenient than piracy, cue iTunes, Spotify etc...

    2. The reason blender and co aren't equivalent is not features set, it's access. When you need to feed your family, you need to use Maya because nobody in a .Mel drunk industry will entertain your .blend.
     
  49. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Morality has bearing on economic dynamics, because a sufficiently reprehensible or disagreeable action can cause protest or crash your stocks.

    The convenience is important, yes. That's why developer shouldn't make access to their product inconvenient.

    The reason why blender and co aren't equivalent is because they use different architecture and philosophy. They cannot and will not be equivalent.

    Regarding feeding your family, the situation is slowly changing because Autodesk has been resting on lauerels not doing much, apparently.

    This is made in blender:
    It is also possible to find blender job listings.

    And you can find blender movie lists online.
     
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  50. koirat

    koirat

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    Personally I love blender but once I had very high poly model, it was impossible to do anything with it in "Edit mode".
    I got like 1 FPS or even less.
    Worth to mention that It was not a problem for other well known commercial alternatives.
     
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