Way too many stupid illiterate posts occurring but a possible solution

Ha! Always witty and sticking it to me (in a good way). If we have Unite in Europe next year you better come man ;-)

 

I think that newbies should have some sort of limit where after they reach fiftieth post they would be able to post a new topic.When they reach that amount of post they would learn something and wouldn't post questions that are already answered billions of times and are easily found simply by using search engines or lose interest and leave the forums.

 

@ivanzu
Or, they would make 50 stupid illiterate posts in order to make their thread.

 

What about mods checking the post of the newbies?Mods don't raise the revolution!

 

Could require initial posts to go under review before being accepted, and then after enough posts were reviewed (five for example) allow them to post. This works pretty well in a lot of forum communities on the web, because new people learn pretty quickly what is the acceptable form of communication. Cons of course means you need a lot more moderation, which might not be applicable here.

 

Please! It is a shame that all the recent Unite conferences have been in USA when Unity started in Europe.

 

I like the idea of a centralized resource being worked on. Although I still must insist on the fact you need to ram it down people's throats. A pm or welcome mail should point to it or it will get lost.

According to the program I have for tracking where my time is spent, I spend between 5 and 8 minutes a day on the forum. It doesn't seem like a lot, and it is usually during a coffee break. I don't wait for replies, I post rapidly and move on.

 

Maybe that's part of the problem Hippo - Your doing what your complaining others of doing, turning this into a dump and run forum - instead of investing some genuine time to interact. 5-8 minutes day likely means your only here long enough to see complaints, and not long enough to integrate into the community - we all know your here, but if your just bein an angry hippo, all your gonna do is flip the boat

 

Agree 100%

These forums are looking like the trash over at places like GameSalad or Corona. I suggest making special forums for the Pro users so that we do not have to deal with them

 

Ostracizing new users just because they are new is rather elitist. And if by "Pro users," Hoff, you mean Pro Unity users, that would be even worse since not every free version user is a complete idiot. While he seems to have his equal share of haters, Hippocoder makes a strong point in that Unity should send new users an email with links to basic resources and commonly used tutorials. It saves a lot of time and usually is all we need (or even a dedicated spot on the website for the most popular tutorials).
As to writing, I too hate it when people make posts that look like they just whipped together ideas, placed a period at the end, and posted. The forums have spell check and while I don't expect perfect use of English grammar, get the basics right! (I do forgive foreigners.) But people who are just too lazy to make a cohesive sentence don't deserve our serious attention.

 

What happened to just ignoring the posts and threads you don't like. The biggest idiots on the planet are those that chose to become angry or irritated by a forum post/thread. If a post or thread has that much power over you that when reading it you decide to dribble at the mouth with rage, anger or irritation then you need some lessons in making good decisions and mind management.

People point upwards when thinking of God. What they don't know is that over the ages pointing up to God has lost its true meaning. When you point up and think of God you are actually pointing up towards your head where you are, you live and you make the decisions. No other exists in your mind apart from you. You are the captain of the ship. If you're going to allow a thread/post to take control of the ship and guide it towards the nearest mind storm then you may as well walk the plank and become the plank.

The technique of ignoring things is quite easy. All you have to do is pick something else to think of or move on to a thread/post that you perceive as improving your state of mind and knowledge. Allowing yourself to get strung along with the wave of crap posted begins the initial ball rolling for you to end up trolling and doing the same thing you were angry at in the beginning.

 

Whats with the sermons? not once have I been angry. I am convinced that robust educational materials exist but they need to be put on a plate in front of the user. Words like stupidity and illiteracy drive impact and make talking points.

 

Apologies Rob, it wasn't directed at you but at all who are reading this thread.

 

Why not a "pro only forum" only people who have bought a pro-version of unity can post there (that way they know that they are at least somewhat serious about development). Even unity could benifit from this it would give another small incentive for "free unity users" to upgrade there license to see whats happening in the the pro forum

 

That would cause those who use Unity Pro to post there and the most helpful people on these forums would move there. I say a "Pro Features" subsection.

 

And how complicated will it be for the admins to monitor who's a pro user and who isn't? Would we have to submit our licenses to the forum? Is the forum secure enough to hold all the licences? Or will we have to register for an account when we upgrade?
With the Pro Section, you are still excluding many free users who are probably better programmers and more intelligent than some pro users.
It just classifies people based on how much money they are willing to invest in something. This does not correlate with intelligence. I'm still sticking with hippocoder's original idea of throwing help into new people's faces before they get the chance to look at the forums.

 

No problem Amon man

Regarding a "pro" forum. I really think thats a terrible idea. A subforum for paying members isn't as terrible an idea though, but basically it would be there just to lure back members who left the forum or don't speak much since the influx of guys who haven't done a line of code in their lives. I still think the problem with a pro forum is that you can't possibly have the categories required to go with it. Hence the need / desire to present the material to people to help them.

A guy above said he'd never even heard of walker boys tutorials until I mentioned them. So yeah, if anything good can come out of this topic, it must be the reorganisation of unity materials and how to present it to people in a more visible and persuasive way.

 

I would presume half of the illiterate posts come from people who don't speak much English...

I would suggest just ignoring the thread if its annoying you, it should hopefully drop away fast enough.

 

You would be very suprised.

 

its true... I give the human race WAY too much credit

 

Most of the illiterate posts use misspellings and obnoxious abbreviations that one wouldn't make if they didn't speak English. Also, it's pretty easy to spot the people who are just using Google Translate or improper syntax that isn't used by native English speakers.

 

The hallmark of a smart non-native English speaker is that they usually spell correctly, they often make sense, but their grammar is jacked up, it is unusual. You can usually understand what they say it is just phrased oddly. I believe the beef here is that people are making nonsensical, information lacking posts that are unanswerable.

As for the segregation debate I'll say this. I would compare it to crime in a dirty neighborhood. You can make laws that attempt to isolate the problem, you can give police stronger powers to thump offenders harder, and for more reasons, but in the end you will further exacerbate the negatives. The inferior solution may bring about more problems than the positives are worth.

Rather than take a heavy handed approach, look to quell the root cause of the issues afflicting the offenders. Give them the resources and help they need to satisfy their issues. With a strong resources section we could simply point them to a destination that is rich with printed help to guide them on their journey.

One thing I'd like to say is that dissent is not always a pretty matter, feelings are hurt, fingers are pointed, but if we harness this and look to make things better and solve problems the end result is always positive. So don't get too worked up about this either way, we all just want a better community and we should work towards taking care of everyone, not just the cream of the crop.

 

I use to think the same way about the pro forum/section, back in the days before Unity3D free version, but now I am strongly in the favor of having a pro section.

I changed my mind this year, when my questions in the forum where drowned in the deluge of the newcomers post of "how to..." or "i want a script that do..". As a paying customer i feel disappointed about how this forum works. I've tried the Unity Answer too but is the same signal ratio there, though i was more lucky with some questions. I've once even tried the irc channel and found a solution. Also when searching for a solution to my problem i found that Google is more helpful than this forum search options.

What I am trying to say is that I feel neglected as a customer in this setup. The level of involvement in forum from unity developers dropped to almost zero, with a handful of people answering to question asked. It is worrying to even start to think they don't even read the forum, because is so full with S***. I don't think they should be reading the forum instead of working, but still, is nice to see a dev giving a quick tip to your problem.

 

I would split the entire forum into Basic vs Advanced, with clearly stated guidelines about what's basic (the deluge of newcomer questions, tutorials, and such) and what's advanced (complex questions that are more likely to need Unity Dev response).

Maybe the forum search should use a site-bound Google search so more users benefit from that.

Yes, I think the Unity devs are in the same boat as us when it comes to stiffing through the basic threads popping everywhere.

 

@aNTeNNa trEE
Well, i hope that i won't have to relocate in this period like i had to the last time. :O/

Although i'm kind of scared that Nicholas will try to beat me up for all the things i said about his GUI system too but i'll do some training before. :O)

 

Keep the forum as it and let the kids learn from the pros (or those ho call themselves pro, experienced or whatever). ^^

 

+1

I started using unity because of how easy it was to make a game and I could make any game I dreamed of in seconds! Turned out that was bulls**t and game dev is hard as hell xD

They really need to stop marketing unity to little kids and step up their game.

 

Yup, game dev is hard as hell, but if anything could take the pain away, unity manages it. If unity was female and in the same room as me, I dread to think what would happen. Probably, I'd propose.

 

Well, it is indeed easy, compared to others solutions Unity is easy. Though no one at Unity is marketing Unity as a one click magical button solution, they just say that game Dev on Unity is easy which is true. Remember that game dev in general is hard.

 

Except most new people out there don't realize game development is hard . . . until they've attempted to make games and failed right near the start.

 

I wouldn't say so. The website advertises it as "simple yet Powerful" with some complicated graph pictures. I would not say it looks close to anything even remotely childlike, it appears very professional. I know I was intimidated the first time I looked into Unity.

Though I disagree with the pro section, I am supporting the mandatory tutorial idea. I think something is being overlooked here.....the first time you open Unity, you see a splash screen, essentially with a "getting started" guide, and various links. How can anyone miss it? If this splash screen could be improved somehow, the average noob could have all the resources at their fingertips. They just don't know where to find them.

"Video Tutorials"
-a collection of videos to get you productive immediately.
"Unity Basics"
-take a look at the quick start-up guide"
"Unity Answers"
-have a question about how to use Unity?check out our answers site for precise how-to knowledge
"Unity Forum"
-meet the other unity users here - the friendliest people in the industry
"Unity Asset Store"
(doesn't apply)

Ok, so then where did it go wrong?

 

Agreed. I've always wanted to be a game developer, but I don't have the patience or the time for writing the engine... Game logic and appearance is where my interest lies, and its exactly what Unity gives me.

Unity is so dreamy <3

 

forgive me if this sounds harsh and / or Stupid.

But - Why not create a Unity Pro section? You know a semi - private forum where people who have bought and invested time into unity could talk. People could view it but they could not post in it till they have bought pro? on top of that we could have intelligent conversations with each other.

Plus from what i see on almost a daily basis is that -New People want to make MMO's with unity, Not Unity Pro. If they are unwilling to invest the time and or money into said project...

On top of that I do agree with Hippo on this the Unity forums have turned into a garbage heap as of lately...

 

The problem I have with the current flood of topics is twofold:

1) When posting a new topic, it quickly sinks to the bottom. If the subject is something not encountered daily, there are very few developers who even potentially could help and it's unlikely any of them will even see it.

2) Browsing for interesting stuff takes a lot more time. With Unity Answers around, the only purpose of the forum clearly isn't just getting help when you have a problem, but also discussing Unity related subjects in general. Currently it's really hard to find any real discussions in midst of the rubble.

I acknowledge the problems in dividing the forums to n00b/Pro sections, but why not divide the Scripting section in to a bit smaller topics? Editor scripting, for instance, would deserve a forum of its own. Physics is another quite well identifiable subject, and I'm sure there are others too.

 

I think there are two issues here - the same old newbie questions filling up the forum, and abusive Neanderthal types.

Addressing the first problem, the idea of tutorials and easy access to them and the like may help, but as we have already seen many simply won't bother. Tutorials can seem quite daunting and heavyweight at first and as a newbie often you just have one (dumb) question you need answering. We need a "Newbie Questions" forum room, directly beside "General Questions" forum room, nice and prominent.

I suspect experienced users will have a use for a Newbie room too - after all only a few of us may really know Unity inside out. As an example in my case, I might be a competent coder, but know nothing of the animation side of things and may need to ask a few of those dumb questions in the newbie room.

 

And you check every new post and judge what`s a newbee question then?

All the mentioned ideas are nice but inefficient. And doesn`t change the main problem. Unity has more than half a million users now. And not just a few thousands anymore. You simply cannot get the same family feeling back. That`s impossible.

 

The problem is their advertising to youtube. Youtube. Really?

 

So far I don't like of any of the suggestions being made here, besides the one where the users steer new people to the proper locations and formats. In staid of blaming people and trying to exclude them, I would blame the forum format, that gives them the incentive and trigger to act like they do.

A forum is designed to discuss a topics it is a really bad Q&A format, it pushes people to start new topic in staid of looking for the question that might hold a solution to there problem. It is not designed to discuss diffident solutions to one problem if there are multiple solution the topic just becomes a mess. (this is even worse if some part of the threat goes off topic)

Way ? Well lets see:
1) Post count, it is below your name on every post you make. For some people on a forum it is a number they don't like, they want to get it as high and possible and fast as possible as fast as possible, as a result they start making random post without adding any value to the topic. This is normal, no one likes the look of a newby number under there name ...

- Proper Q&A fix is to replace forum count with a karma/rep system, a system like that triggers people to make posts that add value to the topic and might provide them with karma . Ofc you will have to get a basic amount of positive karma before you can start adding your karma thoughts on to others. (balance and limit this system well)

2) Q&A it self, if you ask a question in this forum format you get one long list of replies and somewhere in that list there is a possible solution. Now if this is a new topic then it's kinda ok, your following as the posts come in from start. But if u use the search function and you find the question you had with a 5-30+ page long list then it gets annoying, if you then start reading that and half the posts are useless then you get to the point where it is very tempting to start a new topic with the same question.

- Proper Q&A fix is to have the first post as a Question and all following posts as a possible solution. Make it so that the solutions can be mark't as a good solutions. On top of that add a voting option so that people with a basic amount of positive karma can vote for there favorite solution. Move these approved solution up to the top, sort them from favorite to less favorite, let the bad solution dangle at the bottom.

- To discuss these solutions you can have nested replies, this will make reading about a specific solution for a specific question allot faster, easier and overall more pleasant. If you did not find a solution you like you can simply create a new question under the main question, again have it marked as good/bad question and use a nested reply system to discuss.

So meany words ...

There is allot more to be said about public Q&A systems and way forums are not the way to go but I'l just leave it at these two. Implementing these could fix the forum experience without taking away the feel of it being a actual forum.

The bottom line, steering new people to the proper locations and formats won't work unless the environment there in also rewards them when they follow these guides. Aka karma and a good and clear solution to there problem when using the search function.

:-|

 

I dare say there will be some "seepage" but newbie rooms seem to work well in other districts.

There wouldn't be any checking, no more so than there is on the Unity forum now with the separate rooms, though that's not to say users won't occasionally respond with "Shouldn't this be in newbie room / scripting / shaderlab / gui" rooms (delete as applicable).

 

But i`m no Newbee. I`m the uber pro! 1111!

Hm, i`ve never seen a newbie section at a forum. Separation is never a really good idea anyways. You can bet that there will nearly always be the "shouldn`this be in ..." whining in case such a section exists.

That the forum gets thrown to death with newbie questions mainly shows that the manual could benefit from an overhaul. I personally nearly always end in the forum when i have a problem because the manual is of no help for me.

Unity could also offer even more tutorials. Or what about a sidebar with links to useful resources?

As told, the problem is not that there is a need for a newbie section really, or that there are really so much moron posts. Which is a myth anyways. The problem is the masses in general. And that`s the way it is.

 

I second the notion of a Karma system. It encourages knowledgeable people to assist newcomers, and serves as a validity indicator when you need to know whether or not you'll take the poster's advice seriously.

And perhaps a very low karma score will deny you the chance to open new threads (just reply to existing ones until you raise your karma). This will also prevent the flood of completely pointless topics and force those denied of the chance to open a thread to seek their answers to topics already answered (by using the Search field).

That being said, I don't find there is an actual issue with the current state of the forums. I don't mind reading or even replying to newbie questions with no proper English. The karma suggestion is a good one nonetheless, even if there is no issue.

 

In all honesty Tiles I don't like separating the forums either, most people only post in the biggest forum. Of course your argument then suggests there shouldn't be any forum rooms at all, which probably isn't a step forward.

 

Quite frankly, a big-red- flashing pop-up with some b**bs in it and a great big ol' "Search Before you Ask Something or you will be Banned" in comic sans would be one of the few things that would get rid of a good couple of stupid questions. [if not all of them]

But then again, what defines a stupid question ? Didn't we also have tons of them 2 years ago ? Ignoring them or subtly pointing them to unity answers or a tutorial will do the job. Now, I don't really browse the forum as much as I used to do but it still seems like a decent place.

Showcase is still overrun by crap, but that was always the case and gossip seems to be a bit better actually.

 

Oh, the current separation by topics makes pretty much sense. But it makes no sense to separate the forum by user as suggested here.

 

HAHA, you can just sum it all up with one word.

UNITY !!

 

It all depends how you separate the sections, and how you name them.

For example (In the main forum)
- Noob Scripting
- Pro Scripting
- Noob Etc.
- Pro Etc.

Now this brings the problem of spillage as you say. However, subforums:
- Scripting
------> Advanced Scripting
- Etc.
------> Advanced Etc.

This way the advanced sections still exist but are also out of "easy" reach and remain in the same space. You can do great sorting with subforums, really.

 

I think the tone of this thread is too negative, but the issue it addresses is very real. Some people are asking for help with things that they should be easily finding on a wiki, or tutorial, or some other document. They are obviously not finding that.

Other people are having real issues that they should be asking about, but haven't got a clue how to write a 'please help me' forum post. Many of them can't even write the title of the post! 'Please help me' is NOT a good title. This is general netiquette, and is bad everywhere, but that doesn't mean this forums can't do its part to fix it.

I think hippocoder's idea of an automated PM to new users with a list of helpful links, tutorials, and general netiquette is an excellent idea. It gives them what they need without insulting them. Anyone making a new account can be assumed to be new to Unity. (It's possible they aren't, and those people will ignore the info they don't need.)

This won't fully remove the problem, but it should lessen it considerably.

Personally, my response has been to ignore the poorly written posts... But I've also found that I spend less time looking at the forums as well.

 

Calling a forum "Noob Scripting" sounds rather stupid in itself, since the word noob does not make me think of the most intelligent people. Words like "Beginner" and "Advanced" make the creator sound so much more intelligent. (I am a bit old school, but still . . . .)
I usually just check the showcase forum and, on occasion, the script forum, but things really don't seem terrible. If I click on something in showcase that looks like a beginner showing off, I leave and go to the next interesting thread. It's not really that big of a deal. Though, perhaps some of you find it painful to see crap out there. It'll always be out there. It's what boosts the self-esteem of our skilled members.

 

When I started with Unity I would read the scripting forum to learn new things. When I got a little deeper, I started asking starting threads and asking questions. Then as I learned more I started to help people who had problems I had dealt with in the past.

This is really the life-cycle you want on a forum... the problem is that I am not interested in answering questions that I know have an answer elsewhere in the Unity forums or Stackoverflow.

Recently I had a problem with the Dell website. When I wanted to send an email to customer support, it made me jump through some hoops first. It even "read" my email and suggested possible answers in their extensive FAQ. Only after confirming that my answer was not available did it allow me to send the email.

In a way, it was annoying. I already searched the FAQ to find the answer to my problem... but many people don't bother, they go straight for the jugular. If the forums here automatically searched keywords in your post, and then suggested similar topics (which were marked [answered]), we might avoid people posting the same questions.

Now that I have experience in game development it seems I need the help from these forums less often, but sometimes I have a very specific or interesting question which would benefit from the insight of other experienced users. Unfortunately, people with experience seem to be straying away from the Scripting forum recently, as they get tired trying to help people who would benefit from actually reading posts, rather than creating new ones.

 

The newbies may think their question is advanced and post in the pro section.


I say if they have under 100 posts, but a screen before they post that has links to the tutorials.

New thread -> post new thread -> "do these solve your problem?" page with tutorial links-> if yes, no post; if no, post