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Discussion Virtual geometry in unity

Discussion in 'General Graphics' started by laurentlavigne, Feb 27, 2024.

  1. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

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    If there are changes on C++ side that probably be difficult ;)
     
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  2. Bwacky

    Bwacky

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    Likely, depending on what they did in that fork. If it is similar to simply being another custom scriptable render pipeline under the hood like how you can swap between URP/HDRP already or make your own, might not be too bad.
     
  3. Crazy34

    Crazy34

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    Yes, as we have been saying for about 2 years. For Unity to continue as a truly competitive engine, it would have to add a few features that meet these needs. We have seen how important it is for China to do this, according to the reactions.

    The funny thing is that these features are made in unity but unity developers will not be able to use them. :D

    Unity as we know it again, keep going. We are just waiting for the our last project to be finished so that all this nonsense is over. That's all our motivation now. No offense to anyone.
     
    impheris likes this.
  4. impheris

    impheris

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    When you care about technology and the users :)

    Is already failing for a couple of years now. I tried Godot some months ago and i was really surprised for how easy and good it is... The only problem with godot is the quality of its features and the performance, but for an open source tool, is getting pretty close to Unity. At least, Godot is basically the same as URP but totally free :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  5. ForgottenDreamcat

    ForgottenDreamcat

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    That's... poly count is not the only reason as to why you would want Virtualized Geometry...

    The primary benefit of Virtualized Geometry is making the 3D Asset creation pipeline faster. No need to spend time generating LoDs and adjustments for props, envrironment objects, etc. Just make one Nanomesh and it gets virtualized. Also, less GOs in memory and no additional LoD management since it would be handled by the Nano solution.

    The 3D Asset creator can just focus on making the high-poly version of things and generate a nano-mesh for it. That's a huge benefit for a team.

    And Nano meshes can be easily optimized to 1 Draw Call. Extremely useful for making a dense environment be less costly on less-powerful hardware (mobile, Steamdeck, etc).

    Those are immense benefits since once you have portable code across different projects, the only major limiting factor will be Assets... and every new 3D Asset you make will likely require LoDs unless you're doing a restricted camera view where LoD is unnecessary.
     
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  6. chingwa

    chingwa

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    I can't believe this. Unity is absolutely pathetic.
     
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  7. kristoof

    kristoof

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    What the actual duck....
    I'm looking into actually switching to Unity China. (even my Unity ID works on the China site)
    What are even Unity Global doing...
    This feels like a huge slap to the face for anyone who stayed with unity after all the sh*tstorm
     
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  8. Bwacky

    Bwacky

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    If the Chinese TOS allows to use the engine outside of China and you can release a product with it in the EU/US, I'd say it's quite an appealing offer for anything that isn't a mobile clicker game.
     
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  9. kristoof

    kristoof

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    Looking into the TOS right now, will probalby need to get some professional translation and talk to some lawyer people too but if it's allowed it's a no brainer move (from the tech side)
    IP and patents could be sketchy but China is great at the "clean room" stuff if u know what I mean xd
     
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  10. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    You've missed the biggest advantages of Nanite if you've bought into the marketing hype that was extremely high numbers of polygons. Nanite applies quantization to your mesh data with the result being that not only is it smaller on disk it's also smaller in memory. Additionally due to how it works it reorders the draw calls to be more efficient.

    Back when it was released my initial tests were with the Synty Studios Dungeon Pack. I saw a reduction in polygon usage from 2,000,000 to 80,000 but more importantly I saw a reduction in draw calls from 1,500 to 550. Both are massive decreases and that's just for a low polygon count showcase environment without any interactables.

    Finally it completely eliminates the need to create LODs for the majority of assets simplifying your workflow.

    https://www.mathworks.com/discovery/quantization.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  11. Saniell

    Saniell

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    Look, Nanite or "Virtualized Geometry" is an umbrella term. There is nothing stopping unity from providing built in LOD generator which runs on asset import. Literally what UE is doing
     
  12. impheris

    impheris

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    i don't think you want that or can do that either hahaha... You can try Unigine, is pretty similar to unity, is also c#, they created something called psdgi (Panorama Space Dynamic Global Illumination) is better than anything unity can offer now and also works with open world scenes jaja the irony (because unigine is created by a small company compared to unity), also Unigine is 64-bit double-precision while unity is 32-bit, if GI is that important to you, you can try that, or godot, even godot has better solutions for that :p

    Unigine


    Godot
     
  13. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It's not an umbrella term. It's a specific technology that approaches the problem in a specific way. UE does provide a simple LOD generator but it's still a lot of work that requires you to manually configure it. Nanite is a simple check box and done.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
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  14. Saniell

    Saniell

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    It's an umbrella term for multiple technologies that make it work. It generates LODs an asset import using QEM (except process is a bit complicated because of clusterization, meaning it simplifies ~64 triangle chunks at a time), it uses GPU to select those LOD in a VERY complicated manner, it has tech in place to stream these huge LOD trees. Special software rasterizer path for very small tris, Visibility-buffer-like render pipeline etc. There's obviously more but you can learn how it works yourself by just going to youtube

    My point is that unity might actually *not* need the whole package. Meaning unity could probably survive without software rasterizer (for now at least)
    On the other hand, we could use some built in LOD generator that estimates error and automatically assignes "good enough" ranges for LOD component so that quality level switches are not/barely visible (like unity terrain already does, although that case is much simpler)
    Same goes for mesh quantization which you mentioned. In fact that one you can do yourself in unity right now if you really wanted to (would make workflow much more annoying though)
     
  15. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I don't think that's the way that term is meant to be used. An umbrella term is a way of grouping multiple subjects under a general term. Just being built on multiple technologies doesn't qualify to be that otherwise everything we use today would be an umbrella term.

    For example "vehicle" is an umbrella term but "cars" is not because it's referring to a specific category of vehicle.

    https://www.languagehumanities.org/what-is-an-umbrella-term.htm

    I'm aware of how it works (or at least as much as I remember since it's been a while). I investigated it thoroughly when they introduced it. YouTube is a good starting point but there's also dissertations like this one.

    https://graphics.stanford.edu/~kayvonf/papers/kayvonf_dissertation.pdf

    Unity might not need it right now but I feel like the whole package simple makes too much sense long term to stop at a partial implementation. You simply gain too much with it and while typing this up it occurred to me that mesh quantization means a smaller download too. I keep getting a bigger list the more that I read up on the subject.

    If I were going to add anything to it myself I'd likely just add Oodle Kraken. It wouldn't reduce the memory footprint but it would reduce storage and download requirements.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
  16. IllTemperedTunas

    IllTemperedTunas

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    Had the same thing happen to me just yesterday. Absolutely massive bug affecting all projects running web on mobile "Won't fix".

    Maybe they're trying to close out bugs to make it look like things are getting done, even if they're key issues. I dunno, I shouldn't assume. Perhaps they're finally moving on things now that the reset is happening and they're so backlogged they're just trying to close thousands of bugs at a time to keep their heads above water.

    This thread is infuriating. You get to see how the "movers and shakers" in the west are doing everything they can to set everything on fire and only care for things if it enriches themselves, while China's moving full steam ahead laughing at our incompetence as they eat our lunch.

    This industry is &*($'d
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
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  17. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    They also did it in a year and a half. Imagine Unity west implementing something in a year. They can't even issue a hotfix to LTS input system 1.7.0 in 6 months so I can use my damn mouse to add an input action.
     
  18. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I haven't given it a thorough look over due to not having a translation but this statement is at the top of the licenses for Unity China.
    https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service
    https://unity.cn/legal-cn/service

    On a somewhat related note I found their community.

    https://developer.unity.cn/

    Edit: I was able to successfully log in to Unity China with my Unity Technologies account. Opening my account info page shows the same dashboard but in Chinese. I'm downloading their editor to poke around in it. :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
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  19. impheris

    impheris

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    would you share your experience with it? please :p
     
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  20. Freznosis

    Freznosis

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    Tuanjie translates to... Unity :rolleyes:
     
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  21. kristoof

    kristoof

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    Literally speechless right now...
    JUST INSTALLED IT, IT ACTUALY WORKS!!!

    Did some more digging while at it

    Implementation
    Looks like it's using the stock HDRP RP, all of this is implemented outside RP.
    Good news because you can just use HDRP, bad news because if you want to "port" it to Unity Global, you probably need source code acess (for Unity and Unity China and good luck lol)

    TOS
    Based on the first read, there's nothing stopping you from using it outside the chinese market, it just has some extra china specific stuff. (NOT legal advice, do your own research)

    Language
    It's just Unity, you can use english!

    HUB
    Tuanjie hub with unity hub
    upload_2024-2-29_13-14-29.png

    Accounts
    You can log in to everything via your existing unity id (wich is like scary because if it's a different company in china, WHY/HOW DO THEY HAVE ACESS TO MY DATA????)

    Download
    VPN or you can actually contact them, they have a faq section about overseas
    upload_2024-2-29_13-18-21.png

    (Edit)
    Privacy concerns
    Yes.
    upload_2024-2-29_13-51-12.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
  22. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    With the voxelized approach i get around 70fps with 3 cascades in URP for fully realtime case without any form of baking, in a 4050RTX, so is defintly possible to do run time GI, maybe was heavy for GPU 10 years back, but even 1050gtx run it in 70fps with one cascade.
     
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  23. mario_unity858

    mario_unity858

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    Can't wait! :)) GL man
     
  24. Lo-renzo

    Lo-renzo

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    Biggest WTF in a Unity thread ever. :eek:
     
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  25. kristoof

    kristoof

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    Voxelized GI with 1 bounce is easy.
    Voxelized GI with infinite bounces with voxel size small enough to not have artifacts is extremely expensive.
    Voxel GI scales exponentionally with voxel size/bounces.
    Yes you can make it work but it is not The Way™
    Just for reference, you just can't do this with voxel GI with realtime frame rates.
     
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  26. pragmascript

    pragmascript

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    This is a good question and should be addressed by unity.
     
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  27. v0lt1369

    v0lt1369

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    Unity RayTraced GI its supported trough compute shader fallback it has the exact requirement as Unreal Lumen, read the hardware requirements: https://docs.unity3d.com/Packages/c...tion@17.0/manual/raytracing-requirements.html

    And RTX will also be coming to URP, its on the roadmap, there is also a replacement to elighten realtimeGI in the works thats going to make use of APV's, its only a matter of time
     
  28. Lurking-Ninja

    Lurking-Ninja

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    I think this is the other way around. Since Unity China is the reseller of Unity's products, I think what's happening is that Unity China users are logging into the Unity Global network and access the services through a global unity identity account. But obviously this is just an educated guess (and maybe wrong) based on the blog post and the privacy policy section:
    Capture.PNG
    And that they are actually listing Unity China as their affiliate on the linked page:
    Capture1.PNG
     
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  29. Zarod

    Zarod

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    But ... is any on you ACTUALLY going to use them ?

    Do you really want your app to have a mesh that to takes 50 megabyte of storage and needs to be loaded in chunk each frame?

    And are you really that lazy that you both either can't be bothered to bake the lighting OR come up with your own proprietary tech you can flex on everyone else?

    You are not wrong for wanting them ... but as far as ai am concerned, I am much more content if Unity lets other engines figure that out, and instead focuses on compatibility, performance and learning/documentation support.

    Those are not "the future" ... those are mostly just trands that are hot now, just hype ...

    Gaming needs MUCH MORE than pretty shadows or a 10million faces model of a rock that takes 10 seconds to load.
     
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  30. Slashbot64

    Slashbot64

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    Finally a game engine I can jump ship too
     
  31. IllTemperedTunas

    IllTemperedTunas

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    This is a good point, and no I have no need for any of this tech, but the accomplishments are impressive.

    Technical adjustments we COULD use are improvements to lighting, shadows, shaders, materials across the board. Post processing. Ambient occlusion, anti aliasing, terrain, and on and on. We've said this thousands of times.

    The fact that China is implementing systems far more complex than any of the above features really speaks to the shortcomings of the development of this engine in the West.
     
  32. Lurking-Ninja

    Lurking-Ninja

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    Well, if Unity Global implements them, probably not. It will be buggy as hell, load at abysmal rate and will have incompatibility with just about everything, including Unity's own packages.

    Otherwise I would. And not out of laziness, but since I'm working on desktop titles (windows, linux, osx and consoles IF it comes up later), why not? I don't have the limitations of the mobiles. Slow storage and whatnot. Unity can't develop a decent LOD system, they can't develop a decent occlusion system (at least not one that is not overran by performance issues), so why not?
     
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  33. mgear

    mgear

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    i'd have use for those features right away, if they do improve editor and/or runtime framerate.

    *as i work mostly in non-game projects, sometimes have +100k objects and/or +100m vertices,
    (and no, quality cannot be reduced, or to have collapsed objects), and at least personally
    i have requested those (nanite/lumen alternative) improvements in every unity survey..

    but then again, comparing this with Nanotech, it seems like unity's implementation is much worse. (and limited to hdrp etc.)
     
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  34. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    I use infinite bounces in LUMINA and seem to work ok, the fps i mentioned are with infinite secondary bounces, it is done iteratively.

    Some tests below comparing to ray tracing on the 4050RTX

    Raytracing RTX 4050
    https://imgur.com/CzCuO8L
    https://imgur.com/R6Nvk6C

    LUMINA
    https://imgur.com/xWkFyXO
    https://imgur.com/3kjJ0ON
     
  35. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    This is neither here nor there, but phone storage is pretty fast these days, the problem is more with it being limited than it being slow.
    If you were going to use LODs, virtual geometry like features generally take less space, since you don't need lods and the format they convert to is, typically, super compressed.

    With that said, I also wouldn't use such a feature made by Unity "Global". I'm playing with URP these days and like, this is minor and maybe petty, but you know, rotated box projected (and maybe other shapes? Cylinder? local sphere?) reflection probes, is a common thing that is fairly easy to implement and yet, after all this time URP doesn't have it. I have made plenty dumb decisions over the years, but dropping Unity's reflection probes and writing my own system was not one of them.

    Here is people talking about this feature a decade ago: https://forum.unity.com/threads/rotating-reflection-probe.276509/#post-1836467

    Unity has been doing sideways hops for a decade and are unable to move the engine forward in any meaningful way.

    So, would I use a good virtual geometry feature? Sure, why not. Would I use a bad one? No. And I think Unity "Global" can only produce the latter.
     
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  36. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I believe that's the case too. I had to download Tuanjie Hub which is based off of an older release of Unity Hub but it was able to log into my Unity Technologies account. Getting that installed wasn't a problem but Tuanjie wouldn't download until I set NordVPN to Hong Kong. After installation everything worked fine without the VPN.

    I haven't spent that much time in it but Tuanjie 1.0.3 appears to be the Unity 2022 LTS based off of it using HDRP 14.0.8. Speaking of which their HDRP has the same Unity companion license that ours has. I don't see any reason why you couldn't bring it over to our side but I need to download 2022 LTS and set it up to see if it's compatible.
     
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  37. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Like I mentioned in an earlier post that's just the marketing hype. Epic Games may have intended it to be just high polygon assets but it's fantastic for normal and low polygon assets too. In addition to everything else it does for a developer like a reduced footprint and simpler workflow.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/virtual-geometry-in-unity.1551098/page-2#post-9670562

    Here's a link to the test that I did with the Synty Studios Dungeon Pack.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/no-unreal-5-thread.1265198/page-2#post-8039651

    Always evalute the technologies that come out. You never know when something might be inaccurate.

    Less space and less memory. That's fantastic if you're targeting a device with tight restrictions like the iPad 9th 2021 ($249 at Walmart) which has a maximum application memory of 1.85GB and a maximum storage of about 40GB. I've actually run out of memory on that device with lightweight prototype projects made with URP.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
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  38. Zarod

    Zarod

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    i don't think so :(

    either they know of a super complicated way to use memory without dirtying it and making such process work on all platforms under the sun ...

    or that memory "saved" from LOD on disk ( which CAN be compressed and loaded by addresseable in contrast) it will be replaced by all those temporary verions that get generated at runtime.

    The ONLY way I know how to script something like this would be to pre-populate and privatize a specific address in memory JUST FOR THAT ONE MODEL, that is thus loaded IN FULL, and the mesh rapresentation just access a limited number of vertices each frame ... at the cost of the model BEIGN ALWAYS IN MEMORY, just like Textures and MipMaps are.

    So ... either they trult did something impressive ... or, just as I understood when it was announced, the "saved memory" talk was all marketing ... it just allowes devs to be lazy ... or " focus on more important aspects of development" ... hehe xD like they do of couse ...
     
  39. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I briefly touched on this earlier. The technique they're using is known as quantization. It's a common technique used in many different ways.

    For example quantization is very common in hobbyist and small scale LLMs where you need to be able to fit a large model into a much smaller footprint. Most LLMs use FP16 (16-bit floating points) but you can quantize them down to INT4 (4-bit integer) reducing the memory footprint by a factor of 4.

    My current preferred LLM for example is SOLAR-10.7B. It's 10.7 billion parameter model that would normally occupy 21.4GB making it unusable with an 8GB GPU, but with 4-bit quantization the memory requirement is about 5.35GB making it possible to achieve full performance on my GPU.

    Nanite uses a similar concept. Meshes are drastically reduced in size to fit in memory. You do lose some data as it's lossy rather than lossless but it's unnoticeable just like a JPEG that has been compressed with a quality of ~95% is largely unnoticeable while being drastically smaller (eg hundreds of kilobytes instead of a few megabytes).

    Speaking of which JPEGs are another example of quantization.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(image_processing)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(signal_processing)
    https://www.mathworks.com/discovery/quantization.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
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  40. impheris

    impheris

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    why you guys need to use a VPN? i can enter the website without any problem
     
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  41. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    If game engines don't allow devs to be ..."lazy", what are they good for?

    Am I being lazy when I use a lightmapper instead of hand painting the lighting? Am I being lazy when I let C# memory manage instead of managing it myself?
     
  42. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Tuanjie Hub wouldn't download their version of the game engine without it. I'm in the United States though so that might have had something to do with it. Once it was downloaded everything worked just fine without it. It was odd.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2024
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  43. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    Well, that's the whole point of "virtual" geometry: that the entire mesh is not loaded into memory at once, only the parts that need to be displayed now are.
     
  44. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

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    I mean...Unity doesnt even have built in auto lod, u need to rely on 3rd party UAS stuff. I use the nanite in the same manner, normal regular poly meshes but with nanite loding ;), seamless transition u don't even notice poly crunching...cross fade doesnt even come close.
     
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  45. Sluggy

    Sluggy

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    This is a tough one. I absolutely understand why people would want certain features, especially if there is a live example being dangled right in front of them. However, I also agree with you that most of us don't really need it. Unity's strength and appeal has always been accessibility and ease-of-use. Personally, I'd rather see Unity lean hard into that again. At the end if the day our job is to make good games.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2024
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  46. JiRo_Dev

    JiRo_Dev

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    Absolutely, day 1, I already am struggling with custom solutions so if Unity makes their own 1st party solution I'll absolutely use it.
     
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  47. Lurking-Ninja

    Lurking-Ninja

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    Providing (near-) one click virtual geometry and GI are the peak ease of use and accessibility. Actually what Unity is doing lately is the opposite of accessibility and ease of use.
    There are threads here on the forums where we asked Unity why it is so convoluted the setup of certain features? The answer was that we have to learn how to do it. It would be simple for them to set the settings to some sensible value so most of the time we wouldn't need to even change them. But they deliberately don't do it because we need to learn the 2km long settings menu.
    Also they put out APV. How it works?
    - you create a volume
    - you resize the volume
    - you hit generate
    - you look around and find faulty probes (unity renders them differently)
    - you select the probes one by one
    - you hit the fix button
    - observe that the probe is now rendered okay
    - rinse and repeat

    Again, Unity knows when the probe is faulty. They could just
    - create the volume
    - resize it (although they could do this too programmatically)
    - hit generate
    - observe that unity create the probes, go through the probes, fix the probes, present a list of the fixed probes
    - optionally the developer could go through the list of fixed probes to see if any of them really needs manual attention

    But they chose not to do that, so you can have a ton of manual work and feel as if you make progress, but in reality it's a colossal waste of time, in 99% of the cases an algorithm would fix this just as well and you wouldn't need to select probes one by one, click buttons to fix them, etc.

    Unity is not the epitome of ease of use or usability anymore for a long time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2024
  48. Sluggy

    Sluggy

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    Won't disagree with you there. I did use the clarifier of 'again' in that post after all ;)

    I think my bigger worry was that this would turn into another huge system that is eventually abandoned for the next cool thing and requires all kinds of fiddling exactly like how you explained. Let's look no further than the lightmapping system - systems? How many even are there? I don't even know anymore because I stopped using them after the introduction of Unity5.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  49. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,740
    You can't get much easier than this. :p

    upload_2024-3-1_8-5-20.png
     
  50. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Posts:
    11,988
    If gamedev isn't about figuring out which arbitrary combination of checkboxes in various submenus need to be on for a feature to work, then what is it about?

    Don't tell me you believe it should be about designing games, that's crazy talk. Peak game-development is figuring out which checkboxes I need in order for my android game to not crash.

    I spent hours yesterday trying to activate APV for URP in 2023. I consider that to be peak Unity gamedev.

    The activation part is obviously at least 4-5 steps (these are for HDRP, but URP is also all about enabling things in multiple places. Somewhat different than HDRP obviously)


    And THEN, it didn't actually activate, because even though I was given an error that "APV is not enabled in the pipeline asset", what it actually meant was "APV is not supported on WebGL / WebGPU", but of course it couldn't tell me that, because all the fun would be lost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2024