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VFX Graph on non-compute mobile (URP) and the future of Shuriken

Discussion in 'Visual Effect Graph' started by michalpiatek, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. michalpiatek

    michalpiatek

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2021
    Posts:
    81
    I can't help but notice that VFX Graph roadmap hasn't got mobile support listed. There are mentions about bringing Compute support to high end mobile devices but what about the rest of the mobile market?

    Shuriken is not currently being actively worked on, and is the only particle tool fully supporting mobile (this information comes from Unity developers in the official Shuriken thread). This leaves us VFX Artists working on mobile in a sort of a limbo where we have to use Shuriken which will not receive any new features. It is an ok particle system but its limitations are quite serious and workflow is a bit odd. This might continue for who knows how long, maybe even for few years.

    This raises some questions:
    1. What are VFX Graph team's plans for implementing CPU simulation path compatible with lower end mobile devices?
    2. What would be the timeline for that?
    3. Is VFX Graph supposed to replace Shuriken in the long run? Richard Kettlewell said that "when that may be [VFX graph replacing Shuriken], and what "replace" really means, are very open questions". To me it sounds like parity with Shuriken is not really a consideration at this point?
     
  2. VladVNeykov

    VladVNeykov

    Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Posts:
    550
    Hi @michalpiatek_uw ,
    It is planned to support CPU particles with the VFX graph down the road to remove the compute-capable dependency. We have a card for it on our public roadmap.

    Hard to tell. Our first priority is getting the VFX Graph to work on high-end compute-capable mobile devices (as noted on this card). Since Shuriken is a more mature and battle-tested solution for mobile, it should be the go-to solution for mobile projects targeting a large range of new and older devices. The VFX Graph can aim at bridging the gap with the CPU workflow down the road, but its immediate need is to support the platforms which fully benefit from the things it can do which Shuriken cannot.

    I'm with Richard on this - depends what replace means. There are definitely features present in Shuriken which we'd like for the VFX Graph to support. At the same time, there will be use cases where Shuriken might be the right tool for the job, especially for older devices. Just like with any other features in Unity, we can look at analytics, the asset store, and survey users to see if something is still being actively used or can be deprecated. I personally don't see Shuriken going away any time soon and as long as a substantial percentage of users are relying on it, it will continue to receive full support.
     
  3. michalpiatek

    michalpiatek

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2021
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    First of all, thanks for the reply!


    This sort of contradicts what Richard said.

    ( https://forum.unity.com/threads/off...riken-improvements.248094/page-6#post-6978725 )

    Now I am confused about the state of Shuriken. Is it on hold and no new features are going to be implemented or is it going to be updated with new major features in the years to come due to large number of users still using it?

    So let's say, 2 years from now am going to work on effects for a mobile game. Would you expect me to still use Shuriken by default? Would it be possible to use VFX Graph and Shuriken side by side (meaning that I will be able to make an effect using both tools as a part of the same effect/prefab and preview them in the editor and that would be supported with built-in tools?).

    So on one hand I hear that Shuriken won't be updated in the future and VFX Graph is the focus, on the other hand I am told that Shuriken will be the right tool for the job in some cases. But how is Shuriken supposed to keep up in the future and still be the "right tool for the job" if it's development is on hold? Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

    I can only speak from personal experience but while Shuriken is a fully capable and proven production-ready tool it has some serious artistic limitations. Obviously what those limitations are is beyond this discussion but I am hitting walls using Shuriken almost on a daily basis and knowing that larger features can be implemented into Shuriken would give me more confidence into spending time designing features and proposing them on the forums.
     
  4. JulienF_Unity

    JulienF_Unity

    Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Posts:
    324
    Shuriken is considered feature complete and is mainly in maintenance mode. Bugs and issues are still being adressed though, it is not abandonned. Probably small quality of life feature can be taken into consideration as well, but there is no resource to develop brand new big features on Shuriken.

    Shuriken won't be deprecated before VFX Graph has feature and platform support parity. When talking about platform support parity, VFX Graph will probably never be supporting older very limited mobile devices because supporting them would mean to develop dedicated path that will limit possibilities. So it's probably more a matter of the market gradually forgetting about those devices.

    We have no exact ETA for this because there's too many unknown yet but within 2 years, one can expect VFX graph to be fully functional on mobile (except probably on very limited devices but again it's also a matter of market share evolution)
     
  5. VladVNeykov

    VladVNeykov

    Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
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    Support, not development; issues will continue to be looked after and customers can rest assured that Shuriken will continue being maintained and reliable, but as Julien said, Shuriken is feature complete and major architectural overhauls or brand new features are most likely not going to be within its scope.

    You can use Shuriken and VFX side-by-side even now. There are no built-in tools for it (as it sounds a bit project-specific), but making a simple script which would swap VFX [A] for Shuriken effect [A] based on the targeted platform should be a legit workflow so you can utilize the power of the VFX Graph for newer devices and still have a fallback Shuriken effect for older versions.

    As discussed, larger features would most likely be outside of the scope for Shuriken, but we'd love to get your thoughts if they can be valuable for the VFX Graph :) You can see some of the features we have under consideration on the public roadmap, and there's an option there to submit new ideas.
     
    michalpiatek likes this.
  6. michalpiatek

    michalpiatek

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2021
    Posts:
    81
    To be clear, I am not expecting VFX Graph to be supported on ancient mobile devices at all, just "most" non-compute mobile devices within the reason.

    Thanks for all the replies - now I have a much clearer image of the future of VFX in Unity and it sounds like we are on the same page.
     
  7. Samsle

    Samsle

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2020
    Posts:
    110
    This was 2 years ago,
    and still
    vfx_req_16_0_3.png
    (link)

    I'm of course well aware of the difference between estimations and commitments, so no blaming :)
    But could we maybe get a new ETA? I would really love to have VFX Support for Mobile (even if it's just High End Support).
    "URP Support (Compute Capable Devices only): High End Mobile Support" is at least under "Planning" on the Roadmap. But I don't know if this was already the case 2 years ago.
     
  8. wwWwwwW1

    wwWwwwW1

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2021
    Posts:
    761
    I think it should work on some devices if you switch the graphics API to Vulkan (Metal if iOS).

    I heard that it can be a GPU driver (or hardware) issue if the VFX doesn't show correctly on Vulkan. Sometimes it can be solved by upgrading GPU driver, so check if there's any system update available.