Veganism in gamedesign

Why hasn't this been locked yet?? Sounds heated.

 

So how exactly is this different from marketing a "good" product?

I'm willing to bet that just about every book on advertising and marketing say in their opening paragraphs that it's about selling dreams. The product never matters. A good salesman can sell you a jar of air. Stores want smiling, upbeat, and positive employees since it means people are going to be more comfortable and willing to spend more. Hell, plenty of store ads pitch the helpfulness of their employees without even mentioning what they sell.

I was going to be nihilistic about this, but the irony hit that this is just a con job that no one wakes up from. You want to waste people's time, but make sure they never realize it was wasted.

 

It's not. The only difference that from the 'good products' people get what they're looking for.

You're nihilistic about this. Entertainment maybe not 'productive time' in the work or making goods sense, but it's important. Fulfilling this isn't bad. Even if your taste is different in entertainment.

You forgot to give us examples, what games/entertainment aren't sh*t?

 

But they still bought it. If it's a movie, most are still going to waste as much time as someone who liked it will. Is that still a success? So how is it again that terrible games can't have massive sales?

Here's my MAL account.

No, no. Me being nihilistic would be telling you to quit wasting time and just go kill yourself. Nihilism is thinking art has no point. You however seem to have amalgamated a monstrosity of a notion under the banner of being entertaining, and I imagine you've lumped every positive experience as such.

How about something like catharsis? Is it simple entertainment, or is it some artsy fartsy thing you threw out with the rest of the haughty patrician thinking?

 

You can't tell us of for dangerous thinking and then follow up with stuff like this stated as facts:

It simply is not true. Making something that's "good" isn't enough. Here are two examples that I didn't have to look particularly hard for.

 

heres an idea for a game.. zombies, but not like supernatural zombies or those caused by some virus.. vegan zombies, they stumble and moan about like other zombies but their weakness, confusion, and disorientation is caused by malnurishment while instincts take over driven by an intense subconcious desire to consume flesh

so there you have it.. veganism put into a game that isnt going to be completely boring

 

This can be observed pretty clearly by tails. Skyrim's massive, massive tail tells us that the game was not terrible and it clearly resonated with a lot of people.

Are the ones without scores awaiting them, or so bad that they don't have them? Because you have .hack below SAO, and that's basically heresy.

 

I only have stuff rated if I've seen it in the last couple years since the account's not that old, plus I don't always rate something sometimes. The last time I watched .hack was ten years ago when I was trying to play through G.U.

Bethesda games get a lot of their long tail because of mods though, and that just adds another layer of confusion to it.

 

Okay. All I know is that SAO is considered to be objectively trash in comparison to .hack.

Fair point.

 

You really shouldn't bothered by the fact that we were talking about _not_sh*tty_ games. Making something "good" more than enough to not to call something complete sh*t. At least in my book. Maybe you call everything sh*t which isn't a Shakespeare adaptation. But that's your personal choice. We, the rest of us, you know, the stupid people who buy everything sh*t you guys are throwing at us have a slightly lower bar.

 

Okay. I give up. Everything is sh*t. You have convinced me. Nihilism FTW.

 

No, dude, you're not supposed to care!

 

I don't know what you're on about. I wasn't debating what "good" means, I was saying that on it's own "good" is not an indicator for success. For instance, as @neginfinity pointed out, making the best product is useless if nobody knows about it.

 

Never thought I'd end up on this side of the trench but what's good about .hack? I watched it 10 years ago but I don't remember anything good about it. I remember MC being a prick and needing 20 episodes to get some development. Wasn't he a nihilist?

 

I enjoy freedom on side-quest or even no quest at all, however, if predefined path of main quests are unique, it's also looks good to me.

yeah, have soul or not, they are always telling a story. Even a ripoff tells underneath of the creator.

Love this statement, hmm very brave indeed.

I agree, paper please is a nice example, the humanity plays a huge part.

Hope those things really work...

Thats so true, fool me again, I would still accept it, because of hope. Hmm..Unity maybe also a hope seller to us.

This 5 pages articles are very meaningful, requires deep thinking for game creator, what is the message of your game?

 

Kinda surprised you rated Keijo higher than Ghost in the Shell, but I'll admit that it's funnier for sure.





OK, since my last attempt to get the thread back on track failed, here's another one:

What do you think of people who choose to avoid "the news" in general? CGP Grey and Brady talk a lot about this on the Hello Internet podcast. Grey seems to be of the opinion that "news" is more like "event-based entertainment" with very little value for society and even harmful to people to a degree, while Brady (who used to be a journalist) thinks it's important to know what moves your fellow human beings.

Same could be asked about games media, what if people start to ignore all the sites like RPS, Kotaku, PC Gamer, etc. and stop watching their favorite games-news youtubers too and start entirely relying on "the algorithms" figuring out for them what to play?

I'll admit that ever since I started using Netflix and Crunchyroll I have pretty much stopped reading movie reviews. It's a bit of a "why even bother?" situation imho.

Do you think that's something that could turn into a trend and lead to the tribalistic arguments getting much calmer because less informed people are also less angry people? With all the dystopian advances in tech like non-stop home camera surveillance streamed directly into the cloud, or that crazy rating system in china, when will we arrive at the "ignorance is strength" part of that famous "1984" quote?

 

I like discussing GitS more than I like watching it, especially SAC.

There's the Mark Twain quote that goes: those who don't read the paper are uninformed, but those that do are misinformed. At this point people just accept the Russian meddling in the election because the talking heads constantly state it happened so matter-of-factly that of course it happened, even though they can't remember what evidence there was or what ever happened to the congressional hearing on it.

The whole Facebook/Twitter vs. MSM battle over fake news is hilarious to me, since it's two procedural bullshit generators arguing over who smells worse.

 

I didn't know anybody took gaming journalism seriously.

When I want to learn about a game before buying it, I check the negative user reviews on Metacritic only, besides skimming through general gameplay videos on youtube.

 

twains quotes are so accurate, even today, but this should be an indication that the news didnt start becoming a propaganda machine in the last 10 years like many believe, theyve been lying for longer than anyone living today has been alive

 

@burntbyhellfire , did you have anything relevant to the thread? Or you just can't find a place where people want to listen to your nonsense?

There's plenty of places where you can go on and on about evil conspiracies and not be considered a troll. Why don't you go do that. You aren't saying anything we haven't heard a million times already, and it's completely against the purpose of this forum and this thread.

 

I'm just talking about perception. I haven't watched either, but I'm on the low end of the weaboo scale so I hear such things.

I know SAO has Kirito or whoever with his harem. Isn't he basically a Mary Sue?

I have played about 1.1 games of the G.U. trilogy, nothing yet for SAO. If the anime is based off of G.U., then Hajime

Spoiler

Tabata

Harambe HASEO that's it, Haseo (I legitimately forgot his name until I was typing in the BBCode for strikethroughs) does start out as a jerk, but the fact that he gets the character development is a good thing. It's better than MCs who never change during their journey.

To give this post some relevance...

I personally take a look at PCGamer (as well as Gematsu) almost every day just for news about games, not necessarily the opinions on them. And I'll occasionally read reviews or previews to give information on what the game is about, or how it plays to some extent.

I do go through Steam queues quite a bit, but I don't rely on them for discovery of new games.​

 

I'm pretty far with Doki Doki and I stumbled over something mentioning "Muv-Luv Alternative" as one of the best VNs and I wonder if I should pick that up during a sale at some point. Considering I've enjoyed Doki Doki and would rate both Total Eclipse and Schwarzes Marken ~ 6.5 / 10, would you recommend Muv-Luv Alternative to me?

Anyone else who knows these things is very welcome to chime in too!

http://steamcommunity.com/app/802890

 

Went to go check on that. Still the top rated. That list is two-thirds porn by the way. I never read it, but if you've still got the tolerance to read a long as hell VN, go for it.

Roots was a prequel to G.U. which was mostly the backstory of the guy going emo. I don't think any of the other anime had much to do with the games, other than some shenanigans from Capsule Corp... close enough.

At this point, I think you'll be hard pressed to find any part of .hack that is above mediocre.

 

I personally would not recommend it to start out, for a couple reasons I'll describe at the end of this.

Muv-Luv is a trilogy: ML Extra, ML Unlimited, and ML Alternative. Extra is a slice-of-life VN that introduces you to the characters, Unlimited places them in a totally different context, and Alternative uses that context to get the story rolling.

...so you may have guessed: Extra and Unlimited are basically just intros to Alternative, but you need to read them to understand the context of everything. It's been a while since I read them, but HowLongToBeat says the first two are ~20 hours, with Alternative being 60 hours.

So if you're willing to go for a 20 hour intro to where it finally "gets good" (and most people consider Extra to be bad, just so you know--I don't, but most do) you might consider it. Some additional things to note: Extra, like most slice-of-life VNs, is basically all about romance. So pretty much all "plot" for that game is your character developing relationships with several different characters (in different routes). It does have a "common route" before that which is more broad (and focuses a bit on comedy). Extra is set in pretty much present day, while Unlimited and Alternative are sci-fi.(I'm a moron who didn't look up your two anime mentions, so I didn't realize you were already familiar with Muv-Luv. All this stuff still applies though)

And...about Alternative...there's one thing. I feel bad even bringing this up, because just knowing about it is disturbing. But I can't make a recommendation based almost purely on this.

Spoiler

Tentacles.

Yeah...there are two scenes that I recall which are pretty explicit about that ^^^. Now I read the Steam version which is "all ages" (so no displayed pornography), but the text alone was enough, and they are shown in a couple of suggestive (but not explicit) images. I'm joking a little (only a little) when I say it, but those scenes gave me PTSD for the game. They made me feel revolted, and I've played some pretty extreme stuff. Those scenes alone made me put up a Steam "Not Recommended" review.

So yeah...for someone new to VNs, it's extremely, extremely long and includes some disturbing elements that could leave a really bad taste in your mouth. Not something to ignore forever because the series is definitely very good (I do have some more specific criticisms but those aren't worth mentioning outside of a dedicated discussion), but something to build up to.

If you see it on sale, nothing wrong with getting it. But play other things first.

I'd reiterate Steins;Gate (actually an updated version called Steins;Gate Elite is coming out in a few months, along with a sequel called Steins;Gate 0) (light sci-fi, romance, and slice-of-life elements) and The House in Fata Morgana (vaguely supernatural--that's the best I can do. As I said last time though, redemption is one of the main themes) as very good VNs. CLANNAD (nakige (sad story meant to make you cry) with family as a big focus) is also a classic, though it's also extremely long (70h). If you wanted something shorter, I could recommend the fault series (light fantasy, no romance elements thus far) (fault milestone 1, fault milestone 2) or some of a person called ebi-hime's stuff such as Lily of the Valley (she mostly does female-female romance, called yuri, but she has a few that have no romance including Lily).

It you want something that has a visual novel-like component but is still gameplay focused, I'd recommend the Danganronpa series (the premise is high school students trapped in a location and forced to kill each other, so it's very dark) where the gameplay is basically investigations and Ace Attorney-esque trials, or the Zero Escape series (also somewhat dark, though more of a thriller with (slightly) less murder) where the gameplay is room escape sequences.

I would love to make plenty more suggestions but this is already way too long, so there's that.

I'll take your word for it. As I said I've only played one game (out of the trilogy). I didn't find it all that impressive (not bad, but with plenty of character issues). Besides, from what I understand .hack is pretty much dead while SAO is very much alive.

 

They should have put numbers in the title imho. Extra and Unlimited aren't even sold separately it seems, and the bundle on steam just is called "Muv-Luv", that's super confusing for me.
Thanks a lot for your detailed reviews and recommendations! Going through two long-ish and not-as-great VNs to get to the good but PTSD-inducing one isn't quite selling me on it. I had hoped that maybe with some familiarity of the setting it's easier to jump into some easily digestible mecha-sci-fi stuff, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Stein's Gate says in the description "... was voted one of the most emotionally charged “tear-inducing games” ever made, in a Famitsu poll." and that rules it out for me. The Zero Escape and Dangaronpa games also sound rather depressing. Fantasy type stuff I can't really get into (don't know why but I prefer sci-fi in general), so Fault is out too. For House of Fata Morgana and Clannad I don't like the art style.
And when I read that Muv-Luv has 20 different endings I feel the anxiety of having too many choices creeping up already. If that's something typical for VNs, I think the whole genre just isn't for me, in the same way that I don't like the telltale games.
Oh well, I'll probably just go back to watching anime after I've finished Doki-Doki.

 

Looks like I've found something to commit myself to for the next 200 hours or so.
The original and uncensored versions, obviously.

True.
But look at it this way.
One of them died (and came back in form of a short zombie ova that makes little sense), other, although mediocre, became the industry norm (a copy or two came out just last season).

 

Japanese VN Market is too uncertain for that. You're better off having a memorable title card.

Well, let's just say steam isn't really a dedicated old eroge market.

 

So it sounds like you're not looking for something emotional, that's what I'm getting. Is that the case? In that case yeah, a whole lot of the good VNs are pretty emotional. That isn't to say that that's all they have--Steins;Gate has plenty of comedy in the first half--but it's a pretty common component. I'd say CLANNAD is actually by far the biggest tear-jerker on the list.

The Grisaia trilogy (yet another with totally different names--The Fruit of Grisaia, the Labyrinth of Grisaia, and The Eden of Grisaia) is a thriller that isn't really emotional at all. Current day, not sci-fi, no fantasy either. Kind of like Muv-Luv, the first one is slice of life (that's extremely hilarious) while the other two actually get down to the real plot.

Memory's Dogma is sci-fi, and it's also kind of thriller. Not very emotional either.

Lucid9 is present day, another thriller type (also not really emotional). It's also free, so you should definitely give it a shot.

The World End Economica series is sci-fi--it's set on the Moon. The main focus there is finance though, with the main focus being the protagonist playing the stock market (though there is a plot). It's unique in that regard.

I may have given the wrong impression for Danganronpa and Zero Escape. They can be somewhat depressing, but for the most part they're more thriller mysteries. You spend your time trying to figure out how you got in the situation you're in, and it's usually something very convoluted. I'd say Danganronpa is probably more depressing, because at the end of every chapter someone has been killed (and the person who kills them has been "punished"), though again the focus is more the mystery behind you being trapped. Thinking about the Zero Escape series, the only really depressing moments were at the end of bad ends.

About choices...not sure where that came from. Muv-Luv only has one ending. The first slice-of-life one has multiple routes for each character, and that's pretty typical, but Alternative doesn't have any choices at all, literally none that I can recall (The Eden of Grisaia, the other trilogy ender, has like two). Usually in a VN there are only multiple endings based on if there are multiple heroines, so stuff like Steins;Gate and CLANNAD have multiple routes for each girl, but story heavy stuff will be very linear. Choices are almost always treated as a way to access different content, not as a puzzle to get certain endings (though that does happen for some of them).

 

Hereditary medical conditions are horrible.

 

Lol, it's only two scenes, hardly worth it. And pretty much everyone considers them disturbing, even if they're into that. Both happen at very emotionally moving moments, and they're executed to heighten the emotional impact, but I (and apparently many others) felt they only pulled me straight out of the experience. Some felt it was executed well--but almost no one found it erotic.

Besides, there are other scenes that'll give you more normal PTSD. I won't tell you about them because the experience itself is really powerful, but when this other, unrelated-to-the-above scene happened I found myself in shock and saying "Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God" for at least a minute, just staring at the screen.

So yeah, if you're going to ride the Muv-Luv train prepare for serious feels and emotional whiplash. Most scenes are done really well.

Not sure what you mean. Are you referring to an event in the story? It's been a while since I read it so I don't remember some of the specifics.​

 

Let me be. I must continue to gaze into the abyss and be consumed by it. It's the only whey.

Well let's not spoil it for anyone, then.

Spoiler: Actual spoiler.

But yes, I'm referring to an event in the story, mainly the deaths of N. and U..

 

If I comment they will ban me again for non PC commentary claiming I am attacking posters and not ideas..This is a politically charged discussion disguised as a game mechanic thread.

 

Let me spell it out:

1. heated discussions are perfectly fine. These happen everywhere, from NASA to CERN and have every right to exist. We will not lock a thread because it's "heated".

2. political issues (unless part of game design or game industry) will immediately be locked, or the user banned or warned. This forum will be anti political for as long as I am a moderator.

3. attacking an individual is outright banned. But attacking an idea is welcome (if constructive).
"That's a stupid idea!" is OK but not useful.
"You are stupid!" is an attack and not allowed.
"Your idea is stupid!" is OK but not useful.

So yeah, this thread is locked, not because it was "heated" and certainly not because of any report by any individual, but because I decided that it lost it's value for people and was basically headed downhill.

I'm shocked I had to even remind people to get along :/