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Valve charges 75% on mods

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Not_Sure, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. evan140

    evan140

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    I have been on and off the Nexus site for maybe a year and have never once noticed a donation button for authors.
     
  2. Zeblote

    Zeblote

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    Probably because the donate button isn't obvious. Having one right on the workshop screen that works with steam moneys might be more attractive to click.

    Modding was never supposed to be "justified" with money. It was always "justified" by having fun.

    Or did you not have fun creating that mod people downloaded 70000 times? Why did you create it then?
     
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  3. Grimwolf

    Grimwolf

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    I made it when I was less busy than I am now. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to piss away all their free time on a hobby for no return, because they make over 50K a year.
    I don't have the option of spending all my time on something for free. Whether or not I have fun is completely irrelevant.
     
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  4. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    My statement was aimed more at Steam than the Nexus. I know where it is on the Nexus but it may need more prominence.

     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  5. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Hm, they could make it like it is on itchio: After clicking "download" small popup would show where you could chose how much you want to donate, with start being on whatever modder set as "preferred" value, then there would be "actual" download button.

    TL;DR: Remove donate button, but fuse its functionality into download buttons in similar way it is on Itchio.
     
  6. Zeblote

    Zeblote

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    So if you don't have time for modding, don't do modding. Like any other hobby. It's really simple.
     
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  7. Grimwolf

    Grimwolf

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    The POINT is that I would LIKE to mod, and this would have ALLOWED that.
    You didn't have to buy any friggin' mod being sold, either. But apparently that was not allowable anyway.
    Guess that sort of thing is perfectly fine when it suits you, though.
     
  8. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    @Grimwolf the reason is pretty sound though. Mods come from randoms outside of the company. So what happens when a mod you purchased doesn't work with another mod you purchased or the game updates and half the mods out there have broken?

    That would result in exponentially more backlash than what's been seen already :D
     
  9. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    Don't those same things pretty much apply to the Asset Store? I wrote my fur shader because apparently the one I was going to buy doesn't work with Unity 5. I don't see why it is that every other area of software development can find ways to deal with these things, but mods makers and users can't.
     
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  10. Zeblote

    Zeblote

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    You really don't want to be one of the modders that attempted to cash in here. Did you see the scale of hate they received?
     
  11. Kiwasi

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    Hate or love doesn't pay the bills. That's what cold, hard cash is for.
     
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  12. Grimwolf

    Grimwolf

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    No S***, Zeblote. I was one of them.
    90% of the comments section on my mod was ASCII middle fingers left by people like you.
     
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  13. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Who were they from though? Receiving hate on the Internet tends to be par for the course. If it wasn't from a community member who was known for releasing quality content and/or assisting on the forums I would simply write it off.

    What is your mod out of curiousity?
     
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  14. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I'm more curious if valve has withdrawn the money you should have earned during the paid mod period. That would be the real jerk move.
     
  15. Zeblote

    Zeblote

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    I didn't take part in any of the spam or threats. I simply disagree with changing something that has always been free.
     
  16. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    The thing is, there are obviously people who are willing to pay, and people who are not willing to pay. There are mod makers willing to work for free, and mod makers who are not willing to work for free. Why should either side get to tell the other side that they can't exist? I'm still not understanding why simply not paying for a mod isn't an option.
     
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  17. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Heh, maybe UT has plans for this in the future. It would be amusing if there were no plans to deal with this.

    Valve refunded the money to anyone who made a purchase, not sure about the authors though.

    I wish the call of duty community stood stronger on this issue post WaW when the game lost dedicated servers, mapping tools and mod support. That's where the series died for me.

    The one's who work for free are probably better at it from the practice :p That could give them the sway they need with the public to boycott other developers.
     
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  18. RichardKain

    RichardKain

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    I strongly suspect that we will see this initiative return. I'm guessing that it will be re-introduced along with the first game Valve publishes using Source Engine 2. What will that game be? Lord only knows. But it will be published by Valve, it will be optimized to support modding, and it will support paid mods from the ground up.

    A title like that would be much more likely to work smoothly with this sort of system. And of course, if Valve is publishing it they can simply take their normal 30% cut and call it a day, leaving the majority of mod-sales profit to the modders. (no third-party publishers or developers to deal with)
     
  19. Tomnnn

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    @RichardKain if source engine 2 works in a way in which games made on source 2 are easily extendable and moddable by source engine 2 which is free... then I can totally see 'paid mods for source 2 games' becoming a thing. Everyone who works on them from the modders to the developers will be familiar with the engine, so they don't have to worry about things breaking for good on update. They may also find ways to easily solve / prevent mod conflicts.

    Lots of opportunities here. Unfortunately also just some speculation :p
     
  20. RichardKain

    RichardKain

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    Indeed. I'm more than a little disappointed in the lack of information we've gotten on Source Engine 2. Not exactly strange behavior for Valve, they release information when they're ready to. (and publish games when they're ready to) But it's still a little infuriating. What little I've heard about Source Engine 2 seems like a big step in the right direction, but details are scarce.
     
  21. CptDustmite

    CptDustmite

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    I'm not someone who buys mods usually, but if someone put their time and effort into making something, and I enjoyed it, I don't see why they can't ask me to pay for it. If I don't want to pay for it, I simply don't get it in the first place. I might be annoyed if I couldn't afford it but I wouldn't be annoyed that they're asking for money. They're offering something and I give them something in return, it makes sense to me. Those modders that choose to keep it for free, kudos to them.

    It shouldn't be the other way around, "why make something if you want to be paid for it?" - people can make whatever they want. People can buy whatever they want. Just because something's been free for a long time doesn't mean people can't ask to be remunerated for it.

    People knit for fun. They can then choose to sell whatever they've knitted, or make it free. If someone wants it enough, they buy it. To keep this example similar, it would be that the person has previously given everyone their knitting for free, and is now deciding they might charge some money for it. All the more reason to support these people who have given you something for free in the past?

    The 25% cut is another question, although I do like that some of the money goes to the original devs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  22. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Did any mods which were previously available for free get changed to a paid model?
     
  23. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That's true assuming you're approaching it as a business venture. If it's a hobby or pastime, though, it's a one that also scored you four cartons of your beverage of choice!
     
  24. Tomnnn

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    I think he meant modding in general.

    Dedicated servers that hold 64+ players at once, playable offline --> P2P servers with horrible lag, no admin or dev console to stop hackers, addition of DRM services

    Game publishes mod tools at some point --> Game releases dlc at some point --> Mods are impossible altogether or now cost money

    With those 2 changes alone, it's like PC gaming is a completely different thing. The only thing it has left is top quality for people who have the rig for it. Those 2 things are literally the reason I switched to PC gaming when cod4 came out. Way more people in a map at once, custom maps and mods made the game way more interesting, and there were even mods that made 'singleplayer multiplayer' fun! Like BTD and ROTU :)

    But now PC is being treated like an expensive console with extra DRM on top. I reference CoD frequently during rants like this because the history of the game demonstrates this very well. As of the last few call of duty games for pc, your options are 'log in' or 'exit to desktop'. You can't do anything without being online, even if you're trying to play solo zombies or whatever. That's not the case for consoles. It's never been so tempting to pirate games just to get back some of what's been taken from us :/
     
  25. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I didn't read the article so I didn't realize they were going simply bolt monetization on top of the existing process. That seems like a fail on many levels.

    The idea is sound, and has been around for while (when I was at GG we working on the same thing to be rolled out for Legions, but the company failed long before that ). The pricing seems very reasonable if this were a complete implementation. In other words a new game with modding designed around this goal, and the developer on board. If a new game were built, knowing that mod revenue was a factor, ideally they would be very active to support this. Adding tools, responding the community, providing and maintaining the infrastructure to encourage this effort. If people are going to be asked to pay for something that was free, there needs to be a good reason. The only one that can provide that reason is the game developer, because mods already exist and thrive right now.

    Monetizing on UGC will happen, but it can't be an afterthought. It also can't be a middleman in the process. I still believe this is where Unreal (the game) is going. Epic is about the only one who can pull this off. They have tools (native), a community, the store structure, and most importantly the game. A well known, popular game with long history of modding. (I did maps and skins back in the day for UT). They are planning on pretty much giving the game away and the source and selling mods through their asset store. It would be for a new product, so they won't be pissing off existing modders, and are in control of the whole process. They could pull it off. If they can't... I am not sure who could.
     
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  26. Aiursrage2k

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    I think this is just the vocal minority who stirred up give it a few weeks or so and it will blow over.
     
  27. Zeblote

    Zeblote

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    Yes, a fairly important one actually. Another guy tried to release a "free version" (remind you, it has always been free before) of his mod with ads for the paid one. I can only think, "what the F***".
     
  28. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    Well, that's kinda sleazy and I can see why people would be upset by that example. Did he at least add significantly to the new paid version to justify the change from free to paid?
     
  29. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Lol I can imagine the script extender mods becoming paid only stirring up quite a few people.
     
  30. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I saw a movie for free last night because some tickets were made available as a part of a promotion. Does that mean the people who made/showed the movie are obligated not to ever charge future viewers for tickets?
     
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  31. zombiegorilla

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    So... pretty much like the rest of the internet?
    ;)
     
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  32. HemiMG

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    I'm not sure that analogy really works. The movie, generally speaking, was never free. A promotion is something very different than suddenly turning a product that was meant to be free into a paid product. If anyone and everyone could go see the movie for free and it was released as a free movie, then yeah, I'd say that it would be a bit sleazy to charge for it later on. I'm not saying they should be obligated not to charge for it, but it wouldn't be a nice move and some backlash should be expected.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  33. angrypenguin

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    I know "it's different". What I'm personally interested in exploring is why people think it's different.
     
  34. HemiMG

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    Because the expectations themselves are fundamentally different. If I see a free mod that I'd like, I may say to myself "Hey, that looks cool. I'll download that when I get a chance." I'm going to be upset if I go to download it and suddenly have to pay for it. That was not my expectation. With a movie, I go into it expecting to pay. So if I suddenly don't have to pay for some reason, my expectations are changed in the opposite direction. A better analogy might have been if the cost of the movie went up. But even still, there is a difference in expectation between not having to pay, then having to pay than there is between having to pay, then having to pay a little more.
     
  35. Ryiah

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    It definitely would have been amusing to watch them actively take one side. Some mods depend on the functionality and it isn't a simple process to replace it either. Imagine if they took it offline or found a way to license it so that it couldn't be used with paid mods?

    In the end though they took a neutral approach which was very understandable.
     
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  36. Tomnnn

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    I hadn't considered that. It'd be even more interesting for the script extender mods to refuse their mod be a part of paid mods. That would drastically limit many mod ideas :D

    There's another mod that's just as important, I forget what it's called but it was used in the mod that unlocks everything in your tree as you leveled up skills. It made the game feel runescape-ish, which was cool.
     
  37. angrypenguin

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    I should have guessed at that, since it's a classic issue in customer service. It also supports what Valve said about an established community being a bad place to start with this. Expectations are not only already present but more or less set in stone.

    So following on from that, then, if the exact same thing was called "DLC" or an "expansion" you'd be ok with paying for it, because the expectation is that those things cost money?

    If so, this implies a different solution to me. Instead of making it a paid "mod", they could offer for modders to make thier content into "community DLC" or something along those lines. So instead of the first impression being "it's a mod but I have to pay for it" it's "this is DLC but it's made by a community member rather than the original developer".
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  38. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    I cant believe valve caved and that this was the issue that made gamers revolt, not the DLC, IAP or any of the other crap in AAA games.
     
  39. HemiMG

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    I've never been against paid mods. In fact, I've defended them quite a few times in this thread. The only thing that I thought was sleazy is the story of someone who had previously released a mod for free and then decided to charge for it. Had he created a new mod and charged for that, more power to him. My argument wasn't that mods in general were previously free, it's that the specific mod in question was previously free.
     
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  40. Ryiah

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    Are there mods on par with Skyrim's Dawnguard and Dragonborn add-ons?
     
  41. RichardKain

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    Black Mesa
     
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  42. Aiursrage2k

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  43. RichardKain

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    A comparison was being made between user-generated mods, and officially-supported developer-created expansion packs. I put forth Black Mesa as an example of a user-generated mod that has comparable production values to most developer-created expansion packs.

    And yes, I do think that the creative team behind Black Mesa should be allowed to charge for the final version of that mod. I would pay for it.
     
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  44. angrypenguin

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    Apologies, I was being way too liberal with the term "you", there. What I meant was that it seems to me that if something was done to set initial expectations differently then the general situation might have been interpreted differently at large.
     
  45. darkhog

    darkhog

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    And paid mods would allow for that (at least mapping/modding tools) to return. Companies like EA, Ubi, R*, etc. need an incentive to provide *official* modding tools. Financial incentive. That system would allow for making more games moddable.
     
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  46. Tomnnn

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    It'd be obvious if they could control their greed for a second to see that they could make even more money by making mod tools. Then instead of spending the time and money to make a little of it back through 3-5 DLC packs, they could take a low % of sales on mods from the community.

    I guess I can be ok with this as long as modding gets to live on and official dlc gets to die :p
     
  47. tiggus

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    I have a feeling very few people would pay for user mods, whereas a lot of people seem to be assuming it would be a cashcow. This is the opposite of race to the bottom, you're already at 0 and now you want to shift people's expectations to pay for something. No feelings either way on it for me but I have serious doubts much revenue would have been generated by this.
     
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