Valve charges 75% on mods

Maybe all isn't lost yet.

 

i dont like the idea of making stuff for some rich suits to make money off me

mods already, make the suits make money off you, by making a mod you are adding value/worth to their product.
if anything, they should be paying modders to make mods, and i mean, the company pays not customers

like, arma.. sooo many people bought arma because of the dayz mod and not for arma

and really, Skyrim isnt that amazing, 40-80 percent of its intrigue is with its mod support and the amount of mods people made for it... i never once played Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim without mods installed
and ive spent probably like 5000hours modding those games and like 300 hours actually playing the games lol


lol somewhat related?.. id NEVER wear a tshirt or etc with a company logo on it
(including those lame brand name fad clothes people like)
i tend to remove the embroidery/ blacken with pen , companies logos from shirts etc
if they want me to wear their logo around, they have to pay me, im not a sucker

 

the paid mods thing is a strategy for the long run,
they want to make all the mods pay mods, so then the customer has to choose
"should i pay for mod, or pay for DLC"
... and then they go and want money from the modders? .. TOTAL SCUMBAGS!!

modders make better DLC than companies do..
and they know that

codWaW .. the BEST zombie maps were made by modders
and then since then, call of duty stopped coming with a modtools/map maker .. just so they can sell their overpriced crappy DLC map packs.. (which are way lamer than modders made for codWaW)
DLC and mircotransactions SUCK!!!!

that is a GOOD thing!! dlc and microtransactions is a total garbage thing that should be outlawed, computer information is infinitely copyable.. material resources are not... true, the labor of creating computer information should be compensated upon HOWEVER dlc/microtransactions are a BLATANT criminal, scumbag exploit

Iam making money off my previous computer work, it pays me while i sleep, and for this, i feel dirty, however, it is relatively jack-crap, still makes me feel dirty i couldnt imagine if i had dlcs/microtransaction, i would be forced to kill myself

 

I'll consider this a positive thing if it means that when a company doesn't feel like investing in dlc / supporting a game anymore, they open the game up more to modding.

 

yeah i thought of that too ... still dont like it though ultimately

lool forgot to say... ive been making money off skyrim mods since 2011 lol
and valve or bethesda doesnt get anything from it
skyrimforge.com ... advertisement revenue sharing


.... actually EVERY game i play now, FIRST thing i do is download like 40 (or like 200)mods lol
the core game of so many games is just too boring... but yeah in the past ive played waay too many video games hehehh .. although i guess im not as bad as some people.. i get overly critical and bored way too fast

 

actually what about like chivalry or whatever the game is called..

they have modding for that and they take 75 percent , but you also have to be accepted,
and i noticed theres people waiting for their items to be accepted since january...

i was thinking of doing it when i first saw it.. but in nooo way is it worth any intelligent person's time.. its a total ripoff

and Colleges are a total BS too .. you have to be accepted to give them your money? what kind of BS is that? thats just a friggin JOKE

 

I am not going to argue that adding paid mods is a good idea, because I think the naysayers are right that it will create a toxic environment much like the shovelware in the mobile sphere.

However, from a business standpoint I think the massive railing against the 25% rate is unrealistic. People are focusing on how "the wonderful modder who put in all that work" only gets a tiny piece of the pie. To put things into perspective, how many people working at Bethesda do you think got 25% of the total sales for any DLC they worked on. I'd bet zero. Even if they hired an artist just to produce a set of swords for a DLC, I doubt that artist got a contract giving them 25% of the total sales from those swords.

To me, 25% only feels like a small amount because people are ignoring the greater picture. Modders do what they do because they love the game (or are frustrated at something not being in the game). Now they have a chance to earn some money and there's a legal way to do it. Those modders who want to get into modding for the sole purpose of earning an income ... well, I doubt that is what modding is for, but if they manage it, those modders are probably going to have a greater control of their income than any programmer or artist at Bethesda or any other big game company has.


That said, the whole process of changing modding from a labor of love to a paid endeavor is a massive tar-baby that is only going to get worse before it can get better.

 

Do you know what the developers get for their hardwork? A steady job with a salary and benefits.

 

It's all risk reward stuff. The more risk you take, the greater the reward. An indie developer has more risk then an employee, so should expect a bigger cut of the final profits.

A modder takes on more risk then an employee, but less then an independent developer. After the initial sticker shot wears off, I think this is actually a decent deal.

 

A modder takes zero risk because it is a hobby, not a job. This mindset is going to destroy the modding community if it continues.

 

It may soon become one though.

 

There is that, but as @Ryiah said, that will change. But even with that, the risk still approaches zero (comparatively), because all the critical risk happened already, and was taken by the developer. If someone is modding a game it is because that games was completed, successful and developed a community already.

It will continue, and evolve. Folks have been working toward this goal for a while now. It just required a lot of moving pieces to be in place to actually work.

"Destroy" may be a strong word. Destroy it how it exists in its current form, for sure. It will fundamentally change, that is without a doubt. Good or bad depends on how it plays out, and where you are in the chain. But that is the fun working in the entertainment tech industry, it fundamentally changes all the time.

 

While I sometimes mock and have a bit of distaste for more delusional/vocal side of that community, I think it that is good thing. The exent of some mods, the care and detail, it is a specialized focus, and being able to be legitimately rewarded, supported and encouraged to do is win for every one.

If people can make a living a liveplaying, social blogging and being a DJ, modders should be able to as well.

 

The publisher/IP holder sets the Mod author's (post-Valve deduction) cut. In this case Bethesda set the 25%.

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/workshoplegalagreement/?appid=72850

I've read but can't re-link, that the IP holder can change the price of your Mod, even make it free. So there's a window for curation there (or screwing you over, depends how you see it), but Valve have ensured it's not their responsibility.

@hippocoder I can't imagine mods hurt DLC, if anything PC games without mod communities tend to have short shelf lives. The business model for this is inspired around making money from these same ("still kicking") titles. Do Bethesda still make Skyrim DLC? Does Atari make Neverwinter Nights DLC?

I can sort of see why people are a bit antsy about this, get off my lawn and all that. But it always comes down to making money; at least this way there's opportunity for people to profit from their labors of love - or, opt out.

 

There's always risk, especially when you don't own everything related to what you're creating, including the sales channel.

Just look at the guy who released the fishing mod. What could possibly go wrong? It's just a fishing mod! Oh...well... he got some bad advice, he didn't expect that. Anything where you have to ask a question and it's CC'd to a lawyer should have a big exclamation point over it, especially if their answer is along the lines of "I *think* you're ok..."

Valve do seem to have acquired a reputation of washing their hands in the drinking fountain.

 

Something that I think is definitely win/win for players and authors. If this succeeds, it could lead to much better mod support in games - and more mod-able games. God knows, I see some modding tools and wonder how the game was ever finished, they're so clunky and limited.

 

Still - it's only limited to steam. There's the whole console landscape that misses out on this. Do we really want content tied up in steam, left unavailable to others?

A great mod could use lua, could have a texture pack and be a whole new spin on something for console and desktop alike - if the developer hosts it.

 

We may also see higher quality mods. Beyond these the only thing I would love to see is longer support for the games and their tools. If Bethesda is going to take a big cut from a community that is guaranteed to exist for their games, they could at least do a better job of fixing the bugs in their games.

Assuming the consoles could handle them.

 

@hippocoder
Well there's a lot of concern even on PC that Steam will fragment the community *sorry, market!* - unlike DLC, mods don't have any DRM. This is quite a sticking point for the most vocal hardcore PC players, many of whom are declaring they're leaving Steam forever (until next week anyway).

But if publishers can repackage mods as DLC for console - and they'd probably have to as Sony and MS have intensive submission TRCs), it could possibly work, and might happen if mods make decent money after the honeymoon period (Bethesda made over $5k on launch day) (edit: correction, it was $5.7k total, $2.6k to Bethesda)

Valve don't appear to be claiming ownership of anything at least - in fact it appears you can choose where their cut goes (some authors are choosing Nexus, the other mod gateway).

 

So it's all much ado about nothing, then?

 

Aren't all great dramas

 

Yeah, this thread is turning into a seesaw.

So much strife over making dragons look like Randy Savage.

Oh, yeah!!!

Anyway, my thought on it after some time to digest is that modders can always walk away if they don't like it and publishers should charge what they want because it's their property.

Don't like that? Go make your own game or give your mod out for free.

 

Mods was something made by people having free time and for fun mainly, or to give something to other using their skills.

If you sell it throught Steam, Modding is no more fun or idea of giving but more some money goal from the authors.

You will have different type of modding :
- small content
It's like DLC on free Mmos or games about outifts, new vehicles, or new race tracks , small addition but not free.
- packs or complete new mod
similar to some extension, or complete new visuals and world. This is more some game extension or additionnal story and quest, or additionnal regions. In this case when this is a quality mod where people put hours of work i don't mind giving a small reward.


Pros :
- People will be able to make money from small creations of their own
- Easy to manage updates and installation using Steam
Cons :
- Steam is stealing people efforts and work with 75% like a thief
- Many authors making small mods like outfits or armor parts etc ... for fun , will be tempted to sell their mods instead of giving them for free

It still be possible for people to create entirely free mods, only their heart will decide if their work will be a total giving
act or if it must also turn to a personal money goal.

Still many games don't support modding or don't need it, and many people will just play and finish the game without even take a look at modding possibilities.
So we should not really care so much about modding.

 

It is more about profit now than ever before. Elizabeth Warren went to college for $50. Her mother's "minimum wage" job supported a family of 3. Today, the government will loan you money to profit on your education. Things are different now. I don't mind it though. Either people will accept this as sheep and the future will be very easy for myself, or there will be some violent uprising and life will be better for a population that deserves better. Win win for some of us

Some modders were noticed and got to work on battlefield bad company 2. EA screwed things up for them unfortunately and they weren't allowed to do the things that they wanted (mod support, DRM free play, etc... they were modders ffs!). Hopefully if it does become a job, it doesn't become a job where EA and Bethesda over regulate the content so the mods become indistinguishable from DLC.

 

Most of it is apparently Bethesda's cut.

 

Who cares? Valve allowed them to set such a high cut in the first place.

 

I don't have any opinion on the percentage. I guess if a person likes the percentage they will use Steam and if not they will use another distribution system.

I kind of see this development as good and bad. The bad being everything in the games industry seems to revolve around money anymore. That's just the way it is though so as much as I dislike it we all have to accept it. I expect we will see a flood of mods being created as developers try to cash in. Ultra simple mods "buy this hat" and so forth. Copycat mods based on popular mods. Perhaps stealing content from other mods to build these mods. Anything and everything to make some money basically the same as we have seen on the game dev side. So that is the bad side of it... at least to me. Now on the other hand I think there is a good side to this. The barrier to entry for modding is very low. Making content for existing games should be an easier and faster process than building a full game from scratch. I think this could mean instead of the flood of games we have seen the past few years we might just see less new games coming into the mobile and Steam markets and instead see a flood of mods coming into Steam. Modding could very well become the next "make money" craze. And that I think that would be very cool.

 

I wouldn't mind the 75% cut if Bethesda actually patched and made Skyrim modding an easier experience. So far, the entire process has been by people hacking the game to figure out how to make it stable. If you load mods in the wrong order, or overlap files incorrectly it can crash the game. The Creation Kit sucks! It's so clunky and outdated. For example, to make a proper new world, you have to use multiple third party programs just to get the landscapes. That alone has a huge learning curve because of little to know documentation.

Bethesda is not *really* supporting the mod community. Otherwise we wouldn't need the Skyrim Unofficial patch that basically serves as the last major quality control for the game.

 

Steam is the only legal way to sell your mods at this point. Any other solution is currently only free.

I do wonder how Steam will be handling script extenders and mod load order. They may have to integrate those systems into the workshop.

 

I fully 110% support the concept of mod developers being able to sell their works. I think its great. For many years, mod makers of various types got their first taste of game makin' on other people's software.

In a way, we're really lucky that companies like Id Software made a game so popular that also encouraged people to try making stuff with it. That probably helped set the tone in the industry that mods were a thing, and a potentially very good thing at that.

 

I think there are at least 2 platforms to download and change the load order of mods. 1 or 2 programs you can run to cloud-analyse your mod order and give you feed back like "X and Y together will cause the game to crash." or "You're missing Z mod, which is required." All of which are free.

There was no mention of making the modding experience any better with this new source of profit for Bethesda. Just a place for micro-transactions on a platform maintained by STEAM to Bethesda.

Skyrim is so unstable and hard to mod THIS image was made and is instantly understood by the modding community.

 

Not that it's relevant here, and I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm still mad at Bethesda for Elder Scrolls Online. There's $80 I'll never get back!

I would have felt better about writing a check for $80 to The ShoddyCast Elder Scrolls Lore Series. They provided more fun and entertainment for a TES expansion.

 

Very true. Modding definitely got a lot of people their first experiences with game dev and actually just programming / scripting in general. I think what is really needed is that first big success story... "Modder Makes $5k In One Day On Steam From 12 Hours of Work!" Once something like that happens and the game or general media start focusing on it the craze will begin and the floodgates will open.

 

That seems to happen more and more these days.

 

Take a mod or map like Dota, imagine if ice frog or eul was able to get a cut of it, imagine how much faster that game would have evolved if they could work on it full time.I'm used to play Starcraft custom campaigns back in Starcraft 1 days that were better then blizzards own stuff I just imagine how good it could have been if they could have sold it.

 

No. Imagine how much slower that game would have evolved if they asked for extra money and it never got as popular.

It would straight up not exist if the first versions were paid mods.

 

You wouldn't start off charging money but wait until you had a sizeable player base then make it paid.

 

Until you are modder , many of us are not concerned in any ways about that modding subject.
There is no impact for indies , and if you plan to support modding and transactions in your game it's only more money income.
So it's a good thing for all.

 

Then it dies.

 

Moving the flood of get rich folks from game design to modding will help with the saturation of the game market.

However soon some enterprising soul will realise that the fastest way to make a moddable game is to build it in Unity and support dynamic loading of asset bundles from the users hard drive. No need to build a mod tool, simply let users download the latest version of Unity. Expose a few API hooks and you are done.

The flood of "how do I make a MMO" will dry up, but quickly be replaced by "how do I make a mod for xxx". And my stock answer of "Go away, it's to hard for your first project" will be irrelevant.

It's a brave new world, with a lot of cash available to successful game developers who include asset bundle capacity, even on a totally free game.

 

How long until we see "Until You're Broke"?

 

So you get to take advantage of someone else's research, design, implementation, testing, graphics, audio, tools, branding, marketing, distribution, trademarks, characters, writing/story, tech support, audience, etc. etc. and still get a 25% cut?

Sweet.

 

When you put it that way it does seem pretty sweet for a mod author.

 

Define "the author". See my previous post re: how much of other people's work the modder is taking advantage of. Who do you think is doing the lions share of the work if you have the big picture in mind?

Plus, if the splits are an issue you've always got options like grabbing your own super accessible game engine and doing all that stuff I mentioned for yourself.

 

Well, long term this could make it available to consoles. Right now nobody wants to go through the lengthy and costly QA process to put free user-made content online on consoles. But if they're making money from it... different story, right? And PC/Steam is a comparatively cheap way to validate the market.

 

You must have a MBA.

 

Some might consider any game made with the Unreal engine a "mod".

How would you chaps feel about paying MS a majority share of the profits for anything you released on their platforms?

Honestly I see this as a pretty morally bankrupt approach to gouging potential marketplace vendors. They have no alternative if they want to use the most popular platform out there. And the argument about exposure is bullshIt, exploitation pure and simple, if someone wanted to do it just for exposure they'd not charge a penny, if they're charging then it's clearly no longer about altruism. Business is business. This is purely about what the market will bear, and it will take is someone enterprising setting up a mods only marketplace with the convenience and security of Steam to topple that.

 

Mod author. If you have looked my other posts I've mostly taken the gamer perspective and not the modder in this mess like many others have.

In the case of Skyrim, I don't care if the mod support was designed for the players or for their internal game content creation and DLC's (being a byproduct for gamers). From what I see the modders have kept the game alive with unofficial patches that fix hundreds of bugs and glitches, from time to time updated the graphics to from old 2012 to date and helped the sales. If you looked the reviews before they got destroyed the people and now disable Valve(?) there were lots of people recommending the game solely due the mods.

Then the other thing, Bethesda has not helped the modders a lot or at all based what I have read no the forums. The mod system is a fragile mess and only works good due tools created by the modders? If they take such a huge cut at this point without taking any efforts such as updating the games mod support there will people who will not support this as seeing it as greed. If Bethesda wants a bigger share they can make official DLC or actually still support the game.

In your other comment you are devaluing the work that is involved in doing in mods that sometimes create a new game inside the game and have a massive boost to sales. In Skyrim paid swords and armors may seem fair for the 25% but then look at things like Falksaar which adds everything to the game. In others game the mods sometimes create a new game inside the main game such as original DOTA was or the already mentioned Dayz. Even I bought Arma from sales just for Dayz mod.

The good thing is that so far only Bethesda has set the paid mods active with huge cut. Others may not follow at all or not with same kind of numbers.

 

Do gamers really have a "perspective" on this? I don't think most know and/or care too much about anything other than whether or not the content is of a quality worth paying for. And if they do care, surely they're just as much for the developer of a game they love profiting from it as they are for modern profiting? I mean, both of those things contribute to the future work of people who's work they appreciate.

Really, seems like a win-win-win to me. The developer has another way to find future work. The modern can now make 25% where before they could make 0. Players get more choices for premium quality content.

How so? I'm not devaluing anyone's work. If anything I'm pointing out that the value of people's work shouldn't be overlooked.

 

I see that as somewhat different, though. The purpose of an operating system - any operating system - is to provide a platform on which other software will run. They're useless if people can't do that or if it's so encumbered that they don't. The whole point, their business model, is to provide favourable ways for 3rd parties to make software available to consumers. It's mutually beneficial.

The same can not be said of me being able to directly derive works from the latest Star Wars game/movie/book and sell it for myself.