Resolved [URP] Will TAA be in 2023.1?

Hi, I saw that URP TAA was added to the public graphics repository few days ago.

But seems that TAA does not appear in 2023.1.a12.

Will TAA be available in 2023.1?

 

Will it be based on/similar to HDRP's TAA?
Based on experience, HDRP's TAA has been in a bad shape until recently with severe ghosting fixes, the addition of a jitter parameter, and most recently great new sharpening quality options (contrast adaptive sharpening & post sharpen).

 

I hope it'll at least have a jitter parameter exposed.
Not sure why URP's TAA is mobile oriented at the expense of everyone using URP for PC and consoles, most mobile video games will actively stay away from TAA. I'd go as far to say TAA is expected for PC/consoles, but not mobile.

Hopefully this doesn't mean it'll be any worse than built-in TAA, I thought the long wait for TAA would mean a good implementation from the start.

Currently most popular URP games are using assets to make up for bad URP features, because they put mobile before PC, for example URP SSAO gives worse visuals and slower performance compared to HBAO, and compared to HDRP's SSAO.
And so, many popular URP games end up using HBAO (for example: BONELAB, Lost In Random, Craftopia, etc)
We won't always have an alternative in the asset store, especially an updated one.


Please don't hardcode settings, locking things like this will literally always be bad for users. For what. Simplicity?
Considering all URP/SRP settings I think TAA parameters are not something to worry about.
If you're worried about complexity, put them under advanced settings. Maybe an alert not to change any of them unless you know what you're doing.

HDRP's TAA instantly became much more usable the moment they implemented a jitter parameter.
Even built-in exposed a few parameters, as you'd expect from any TAA implementation.

 

I presume it's cause the mentality they expect people to use is "URP and Hdrp in the same project with" coexistence", chose one at build time per platform.

 

Except in the thread about said coexistence it was hinted we'll still need two different light rigs for each scene because the light intensity and falloff function completely different between the two SRPs and they didn't thing of unifying that.

 

I think it was said that that's currently the case. Cause they asked how to deal with it right now.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/wil...ce-rendering-properties-improvements.1342274/

In this question they said while there is some concern if users will understand it they will be unified or at the very least similarly physically based.

As such the issue of converting values would be mitigated.

 

This, the PPI is so insane on mobile (less so on tablet), is TAA really a thing for it?

 

I also don't understand why delay implementing TAA to make it work on for mobile, where MSAA is cheap due to TBR GPUs and full screen passes are expensive due to the high resolutions and lower memory bandwidth.

It's the same deal as SSAO, another effect that tanks mobile performance and ends up being compromised on capable platforms due to having to be implemented with mobile limitations in mind (aka: using fragment shaders instead of vastly faster compute shader implementations).

 

@ali_mohebali I have published 5 mobile games and never used TAA for mobile games. I even didnt see any team who use TAA for mobile.

 

What? I thought URP was a scale-able solution from mobile to PC, not mobile focused?
HDRP has numerous downsides from high requirements to a very real-world focused lighting & camera pipeline. It is not for non-realistic/stylized games as far I can see (would need heavy post effects).
Various game and none-game projects require a scalable pipeline to support a range of devices & PC level - that is what we want. So, URP from mobile to high-end PC.

Let me quote the manual for you @ali_mohebali
"The Universal Render Pipeline (URP) is a prebuilt Scriptable Render Pipeline, made by Unity. URP provides artist-friendly workflows that let you quickly and easily create optimized graphics across a range of platforms, from mobile to high-end consoles and PCs."

 

URP can more easily scale down, particularly in the CPU department. Although HDRP performance has been seeing many improvements. Also, URP has a different visual look to HDRP which sometimes is a better fit for certain projects. Although this might vary from one person to the other.

Personally, I'm mainly using HDRP from the start for my main project but I was hoping URP would be a viable alternative for future projects or project switches for whatever reason.

The Issue I have is how URP imo isn't aiming to be like built-in at all, it's a watered down version of built-in with as you mentioned complete focus on mobile, everything else comes after. If this was the goal, why not keep it as the lightweight render pipeline? LWRP has a description that better aligns with this goal.

I didn't know the mindset from URP developers was you shouldn't use URP unless you're aiming for mobile or switch release.


And I understand the high-end part, still begs the questions, why simplify it and hardcode settings?
TAA is very game specific, most people will need to play with the settings to get the right experience for their particular project. Some might want to reduce TAA effect, just to do near enough for geo/spec aliasing.

I'd also like to entertain the idea of quality modes, one for mobile, the other for PC/consoles.
Same with SSAO. Although I understand this comes at a cost, but it feels like the most universal solution to me.

 

Doesn't sound good - feel like staying on built-in because URP and HDRP are awkward enough add-ons already and if they lack the scalability and features then not good...

 

Is it really Universal if a huge number of techniques are never going to be implemented into it because some lowest common denominator can't support it? That's really really painful to hear as someone working on a PC game with URP. I want to support computers that aren't high end, so I have to avoid HDRP, but now in URP I'm a second class citizen...

I know this was a marketing decision not a engineering decision, but I think it's clear that URP should have stayed as LWRP.

 

I haven't used HDRP but I'd be surprised if it is impossible to work on a low end PC.

That comes down to more than available effects.

For me the only reason I chose URP was platform versatility cause I want to target mobile. But if "coexistence" solves that I will almost certainly switch to HDRP for PC.

But there's also games like Lego builders tale that allows switching between URP and HDRP for low end.

So that could be an option too?

Imo tho TAA is now obselete tech in light of DLSS, FSR 2.0, and XeSS.

 

None of those are antialiasing techniques, they are upscaling techniques and they all designed to work best when fed antialiased source material.

 

No they all replace TAA as most (actually probably all) games don't allow TAA while these features are on.

This is why stuff like XeSS has an "Ultra Quality" because the effect create a nicer anti aliasing without the usual downsides of TAA plus performance gains.

In this video below XeSS compares itself as a replacement for TAA, not simply an upscaler.

These are not just upscaling techniques, they are also AA solutions that far exceed the appearance and performance of TAA, FXAA, and sometimes even other solutions.

Even if you can play a game at 60fps no problem, adding XeSS or other solutions with "quality" or "Ultra Quality" will regularly provide a higher quality image than even native resolution especially compared to TAA.

Further evidence is this comparison comparing DLSS, to FSR 2.0, to Native with TAA.

Granted it's still not perfect for 100% of scenarios, but it's still mostly an improvement on TAA and will only be more so with time.

 

TAA will still be around for a long time, not everyone has an RTX card.
Intel's share of the dedicated GPU market is around zero, it'll take a while for it to be worth mentioning.
FSR 2.0 is not in unity, and requires DX12. Also, FSR 2.0 uses TAA as usual, just a good implementation of TAA.

You need a general anti-aliasing technique for all your users, the ones who have an RTX card can choose DLSS/DLAA.
Most GPUs in the wild are still GTX, although RTX is a close second.

 

The intel one is not exclusive to intel GPU's it works on all GPUs. You can try it in multiple games on any GPU right now, and it's been pretty fantastic even better than FSR in some cases. Especially for games with raytraced effects like Diofield Chronicle, where it mitigates the need for the game to use internal noise reduction.

So users have two choices for this (Three if you include Unreal Engine TSR), and 90%+ of GPUS support DX12 so that's a non-issue. Additionally, FSR 2.0 has vulkan support.

 

You're right. The techniques which consume motion vectors basically implement their own antialiasing. FSR 2.0 seems like an engine-agnostic alternative of Epic's TSR.

But here's the thing: all these need to be implemented in the engine (they can't be forced into a game via driver overrides unlike the old FSR/DLSS). We already know Unity has no plans to implement DLSS into URP and I don't think they intend to add the other two anytime soon either because they aren't "mobile first" features.

This means you won't be seeing many Unity games on Switch with image quality anywhere near Xenoblade Chronicles 3, which looks super crisp due to excellent temporal upscaling.

 

It's definitely something they need to look into more. IMO mobile needs a solution more like FSR 2.0 than TAA

But so far there's no mobile game to prove thats ideal, but there's no reason to think it's not compatible.

 

Producing motion vectors alone is quite taxing on mobile architecture. Even on high end devices, you're giving up a good chunk of frame time that could be better spent elsewhere when you resolve the framebuffer into memory. Also, even on iOS compute shaders aren't as efficient as plain old fragment shaders, and it only goes down from there on Android, specially if you do use the features that give compute an edge, like group shared memory, UAVs, and atomics.

On the other hand, TBR lowers the cost for MSAA and the small screens lower the need for pristine image quality: you get more wow factor by spending that frame time on longer shadow draw distances and better lighting.

 

Seeing as URP still has no TAA/DLSS, I won't hold my breath for XeSS
From the videos I've seen though, XeSS has a heavy performance cost, even when compared to DLSS/FSR.

Also, FSR 2.0 is just TAA as we know it but a good implementation, you can check it out on github.
I do hope URP gets FSR 2.0, it would be a great anti-aliasing option to have.

 

I'm pretty sure FSR 2.0, DLSS, and XeSS implement themselves into the render stack at around the same place.

Thats why most games seem to be able to quickly adopt these features as they come out. Once the framework is there, supporting new versions is trivial.

 

I've tried TAA on mobile in many technology demos and projects under development. If you add TAAU or FSR 2.0 to the URP, we can achieve both high performance and high image quality. I got amazing feedback on all test builds I submitted with TAA and FSR 1.0. no one understands low resolution and they marvel at how these graphics work on mobile. very good in performance.
The best example for Mobile TAA is COD Warzone mobile. From the leaked gameplay videos, it looks like they are using low resolution SMAAT2x.

Please apply TAA as soon as possible and also have Temporal upsample.

 

Last time I checked the URP codes, it seems the Motion Vectors are all generated from the depth buffer, essentially meaning the MV info is all wrong on dynamic objects.
It is definitely serviceable for static scenes, but I doubt how good the TAA will be under dynamic situations. Plz correct me if they have updated the MV calculation in URP

 

Oh boy. We definitely need some sort of good AA solution in URP for games targeting PC/console. HDRP performance just isn't good enough for large open world games, so my studio uses URP.

 

I find it funny that TAA is mentioned as "now available" in URP 14.0 (What's new in URP 14 (Unity 2022.2) | Universal RP | 14.0.5 (unity3d.com)), but the option is nowhere to be found on a fresh new project.

 

I don't know who would use TAA for mobile when a little MSAA is more than good enough, and has almost no performance hit on a lot of mobile devices.

 

But no deferred support sadly

 

I also don't think deferred is a good idea for mobile (and if I wanted to be more provocative, I might also say... "or in general").

 

URP isn't just for mobile... It's universal.

 

Tell that to Unity.

 

Yeah well @ali_mohebali and @eHaka need to talk to the doc folks who say "URP provides artist-friendly workflows that let you quickly and easily create optimized graphics across a range of platforms, from mobile to high-end consoles and PCs."
This lack of common messaging from Unity is really unhelpful.

 

FSR2.0 would make more sense and compatible with deferred, TAA is obsolete.

I think with the coexistence plan with Unity 2023 URP will be relegated to mobile. Afterall it doesn't make sense to make some features twice for any other reason.

MSAA isn't good for dithered transparency, thats why even forward games don't rely on it.

 

TAA in URP comes with CAS (sharpening) and in my testing, actually does a really good job for scenes such as densely vegetated open worlds. FSR 2.0 would be nice but only as an option, I don't think it should replace TAA.

 

Does a good job but mobile is about performance, FSR2.0 would both look better and perform better even in quality modes.

 

Yeah but I'm using URP for desktop. FSR 2.0 for mobile makes sense but don't knock the TAA unity built until you try it. I was quite impressed when testing it in the 2023 alpha.

You can easily get a very good looking game running on URP for desktop, it's definitely not just for mobile as some people seem to think here. (Example is that Phasmophohia is now on URP in production)

 

Hello @ali_mohebali , can you tell us please, is there at least a tiny tiniest chance for TAA will be 'back-ported' to Unity 2021 LTS?