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[UPDATED] ICECreatureControl v1.4.0 - creature AI for enemies, animals, monsters, zombies ...

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by icetec, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. Teila

    Teila

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    No, it will not be good for sales. The users will still have to set these up on their own animal models as believe it or not, the modelers have no problem selling their stuff and they will not give it away from free. Secondly, most people want their own AI, original, different. ICE is good at letting you use many different settings to make yours unique. And then there will be the folks who leave bad reviews because the Bear does not do as a bear should and the simple demo model made by a programmer is just bad.

    Finally, wanna bet ICE would be the first tool accused of asset flipping? LOL

    Kind of joking there..but really, if you want a complete template for your game, there are other options and some do include AI.
     
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  2. StevenPicard

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    I guess we'll just completely disagree on this issue. If I have a bear that acts like a bear, a deer that acts like a deer, a rat that acts like a rat, etc. how is that anything similar to what you are referring to? Asset Flipping? Not likely. That's like saying no one should buy models on the asset store because that's asset flipping. Don't buy buildings and props because that's asset flipping. Don't buy SpeedTrees (popular in AAA games) because that's asset flipping. It starts to get silly when people throw that word around unnecessarily.
     
  3. julianr

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    As Pit mentioned, he is working on it - so you can either wait, or find another solution. When these integrations get updated then become broken again as the developers may update it and you'd expect Pit to continue updating these integrations for free, so you should give him a break as he could then say no I'm dropping support for it, because his core product could suffer - and when that does, everyone who bought ICE CC suffers with it. Pit is providing these integrations for free, so if you waited 5 months for it, why didn't you or your colleague create your own solution or pay for a developer to create one or ask otti direct? Often its a two way process and does provide input from the other asset developer also.

    If you are not satisfied contact Pit directly as I am sure he could do without all this attacking by two people, and refund you.
     
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  4. Teila

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    Are you saying that with Pit's amazing tool that you cannot make a bear that acts like a bear? I am amazed!

    I saw Tonanbora make bears that acted like bears. I saw him make a panther that acted like a panther and a deer that acted like a deer.

    He did all of it in less than an hour during a presentation at our Unity User group. It was not hard at all, required no coding that I could see, and the results were amazing!

    Why can you not do this?
     
  5. StevenPicard

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    Did I say that you couldn't??? The tutorials by Tonanbora are amazing. I was talking about the simplicity that something like Unluck Software assets have because I think that would both expand ICE's market and reduce support for Pit because those who need to populate some forest with bears and deer and farms with chickens and sheep they don't have to spend days learning ICE when they could buy a plugin that has everything configured already. It becomes a drag 'n drop experience so they can focus on other aspects of their game. Very simple concept here.
     
  6. julianr

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    Asset flipping? You could say that for every asset you buy from the store unless you write your own or design your own - but unfortunately unless you have the money or the skills - you end up with something not very good. With the Behaviors/Interaction packs you would get the foundation, what you do with it is entirely up to the developer or experience level of the developer to make it react differently.

    Walk Run is the same, the only difference is the animation, speed and duration. Attack (1 or more animation), feeding, eating, sleeping, death. It's all the same, except when you swap out the animations or modify the textures and furr for better or different ones. Unless you swap out the animals, but then that defeats the whole objective of either paying $50 for art, or $500-3000 for a 3d artist to create just 1-2-3 animals with basic animations. Pay another $10-20 for a whole set of behaviors/interactions ready to go, so you can tweak them to your project and you have saved yourself a ton of time - even for placeholders/kickstarter to get the funds you need to hire in and improve on whatever area you need (if anything).
     
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  7. julianr

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    We're not saying you can't create your own - most can with ICE CC - its all about whether you can at the start, looking for place holders while you work on other areas of the game, or need to get a quick prototype out - at the end of the day what does it do? Saves you time.
     
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  8. StevenPicard

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    It just seems to me there are so many people that have to argue every suggestion or idea. If it's not for them and they can't see a use for themselves, then they can ignore it. The idea might be great for hundreds of others. Like I said, I really only care whether Pit is interested. If he isn't that's perfectly fine.
     
  9. julianr

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    To be honest - no matter what Ideas we share on this forum - there will always be someone to debate and shoot the idea down. At the end of the day these are aimed at Pit and whether he decides to act on them is down to him - we're just supporting his product with ideas to (a) bring in sales (b) create an easy foundation for the quick startup/new user to gaming (c) backed by a small tutorial on how to set it up.
     
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  10. Tethys

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    That's awesome you have explored this - thanks for letting us know! That pretty much settles that. :)
     
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  11. julianr

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    cont ....

    (d) someone else might want to do this with Pit's blessing and I'm sure he wouldn't mind as it requires them to buy his asset before they can use your art/behaviors/etc - then you can't say it will add more support issues as the support would be down to the 3rd party.
     
  12. zenGarden

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    It looks like you want ready to use specific AI types on your game, without having to deal with setup for colliders, animations, damage, behaviours etc ... Perhaps you took the wrong tool buying Ice Creatures plugin ?

    Let's make a vote and see how many people are interested lol
     
  13. Teila

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    Hmm, so it cost that much?

    And yet you expect Pit to do this along with a major tool and probably want him to charge about $20 for it.

    The asset flipping was a joke. I feel the same way about it as you do, but the game media out there has grabbed on it as a way to get more clicks. The one real issue with asset flipping is that it comes from people who....do not really want to make their own games.

    I realize you guys think that Protofactor will see it as a great way to advertise his models...but seriously, he does not need any help. I bet more people use his models than use ICE. lol He is not going to give them away for free in a $10-20 pack.

    I really do not get what you want. You want him to get free copies of every animal out there that we may want to use, and then make packages, sell them for $10-$20 each....even though the asset store has a rule about including other asset store products in your asset...you cannot do it. There have been exceptions in the past but those doors have closed. Even Adam Goodrich cannot do it anymore.

    And he cannot make an asset for a behavior without being able to show how it works in a demo.

    It cannot be done how you want it to be done. It is impossible the way the store works. He would have to make his own bear model with animations, or pay someone to make it exclusively for him so he can resell it. The cost would be enormous for Pit to do this. Without the bear in the demo for the asset, it will not be approved by the asset store.

    Sales would not be worth the cost of Pit's time and efforts to do this. Sorry to burst your bubble. I am still puzzled as to why you cannot do this yourself. Buy Protofactor's pack and set it up with ICE. It will look great.

    Edit: I am editing to say that the best way to do this would be for Pit to make videos of how to set up each animal. :) Then you could follow along and do them yourself. If you want specific behaviors not in ICE, then he should add a better way to add custom behaviors. I know other similar AI packages are doing this. So it would be a great way to sell ICE. :)
     
  14. julianr

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    Pit doesn't need to create his own $500-1500 art either. Not unless he knows he is going to get a return from it. Stick to his strengths - development - leave the art down to the artists or asset store developers he can work with.

    We didn't say give them away for free. Its a bolt on. In fact whilst Pit could simply ask or a 3rd party could - For this hypothetical example; I'm creating behavior/interactor sets for the ICE CC product that are selling for $10-20, I want them to be compatible with Protofactor assets - can you provide me with a copy so I can create the list of behaviors to support your product, none of your art will be bundled with the pack it is just for my setup only - they can only say no. If anything Protofactor would welcome this, and may even provide a link to the pack and if they do not then its another pack ready that works with ICE CC. "Looking for an AI solutions to use with our Animals Pack - Use ICE CC and the Animal Behaviors pack that works with Protofactor - insert pack name here".

    You don't bundle the assets in your pack, not even the free ones. Pit doesn't need to do this either and besides, they can be generic packs - they don't need to use Protofactor, you could use any animal pack out there to create the behaviors on and not brand it to a particular art asset, if you want to see it visually working. All you need to do is tweak the settings or use existing/new or additional animations. It's no different than doing advanced tutorials and selling them as bolt ons.

    Take RAIN AI. They created their AI solution for free, but sold bolt on behaviour packs that worked on it, they also developed a more advanced version that cost quite a bit. That's just one AI solution example.

    Or Behavior Designer - sells other packs, like Formation, etc.

    Sorry, you're not getting the point [facepalm]. Hopefully the above will make it clearer. I edited it to make it even more clearer - hopefully :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  15. julianr

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    Look at this another way then ...

    So, as a 3rd party I could create a tutorial that is for example, a sheep dog - with a load of sheep that I can herd into an enclosure. I provide a reference to the animal packs I used so they could go buy them direct or I may want to create my own and bundle them in this pack. I make all this work with ICE CC, create all the presets and sell it in a pack that supports ICE CC or other AI solution that enables saving and if it doesn't written or video examples to back it up.

    There are many 3rd party packs out there that support popular and existing assets.
     
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  16. StevenPicard

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    It really looks like some people are more anxious to assume and argue rather than read what has been posted. For example, it was presented and repeated as a way Pit could use as an additional form of revenue. Who said anything about free?? Or that it was to help ProtoFactor?? I'm not sure if there's a language barrier which would explain the reading comprehension issues (since people are from all around the world on here.)

    My game will include animals to give life to the environment and as an added source of danger. My main focus for ICE will be things such as wolves, werewolves, the Grim Reaper among many other characters I'll have in the game. I want to focus on the complex AI that I'll be using for the main enemies and not have to worry about the animals.
     
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  17. julianr

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    Probably best to aim any ideas to Pit directly for his feedback, or his permission to do them yourself? Keep this forum to support and sales related questions - its just getting flooded discussions that are more like a debate - move anything else to his own forum that enables multiple subjects for discussion - where we can agree or disagree there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  18. zenGarden

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    Do Pit really want ? Does it worth additionnal effort and support ? Or should Pit stay focused on plugin functionnality instead ?

    What you are asking is scenes exemples like Bear scene, Bird scene, fish scene.
    Each scene will have on animal model pre configured in Ice Plugin, so you can swap the model with your own model and animation and keep Ice Creature settings for that creature.
    This is what you are asking right ?
     
  19. julianr

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    Yes, but between releases I don't see why not. There may come a point in the ICE CC development life-cycle, apart from supporting future Unity releases, bug fixes and 3rd party add-ons is that the core will become finished. If Pit wants to expand on it, or a 3rd party does then I don't see why not. Or he could just include this in the core product and up the price. Or he may just work on the next big idea. It's just an idea.

    I'm not asking for this myself as I don't need it. Like I said above It's just an idea - nothing more.

    Lets keep ideas like this to Pit directly or on his own website forum, as I don't want to keep this discussion ongoing here, it just saturates the sales, marketing and support on this forum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  20. Akshara

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    Well honestly Steven, you don't seem to be trying to comprehend the other perspective that well either.

    On paper, your suggestion sounds like a great idea - I like it too. In practice however, there is a reasonable chance, and a precedent if one considers ICEIntegration, that doing so could unintentionally cause core development, documentation and customer support to suffer. This isn't just speculation - read through the last two years of discussion in this thread, as a measure of how things might play out.

    I'd rather see ICE focus on core stability, improve its documentation and prepare for the changes coming in Unity 2018. And while I'd also like to see what you're suggesting, I'd rather it come from elsewhere.
     
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  21. julianr

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    Agreed - Pit and the core product should be a priority and that is assuming that Pit also plans on supporting Unity 2018 - which might be a question to ask - However it may at this stage be premature to do so.
     
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  22. Teila

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    It is okay. :) I may not be explaining it well. Not sure I really understand what he wants. I am not trying to debate just giving some honest reasons why this might not be as good of an idea as they think. There are aspects to do with the asset store requirements that many of you do not know about. I hang out with publishers and hear all the headaches.

    If we come back to ICE and that seems probable, I do hope he stays focused on the core.

    What would be great is some videos examples that use models and show us how to set them up. Also maybe how to create custom behaviors for the animals. These videos could be free or on Patreon to pay for the support. Users can then just follow the video and replace with their own model. Honestly, models are models. Art does not need integration. You buy the model, replace the animations with your own.

    As a wise man once said, you can give a man a fish and he eats for a day. You can teach a man to fish and he eats for a year.
     
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  23. TonanBora

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    No no no, if you want simplicity, you have the wrong AI kit. Go use Emerald if you want simplicity.
    What makes ICE so fantastic, and great is its LACK of simplicity. Because ICE is not simple, it allows us to create fantastic AI. I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to make an AI with Emerald, only to find out "Nope can't do it" BECAUSE of Emerald's simplicity. But I have yet to find an AI that I can't make with ICE, with little, to no scripting.
    Heck, I made a Stone Golem, that shoots a line of spiky rocks at enemies and two teams of Mechs (that rotate their upper half independently!) that fight each other, with zero lines of code. Try doing that with Emerald. :p

    What ICE needs most, is tutorial videos from Pit himself. None of us, not me, not Julian, know ICE nearly as well as Pit does.
     
  24. wood333

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    Sorry, Pit, but those aren't "gentlemen."
     
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  25. julianr

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    "ignore" feature - and then all is quiet again :)
     
  26. StevenPicard

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    Fair enough. I really feel like ideas are being attacked aggressively on this thread. Perhaps it's just my perspective but it really seems that way. It really was an idea I was throwing out for consideration.

    As I did mention in another post of mine I have some planned complex AI that I wanted to focus on and thought it would be nice to get the animals out of the way with little effort since their behaviour would simply be typical.

    For anyone I offended, I apologize. It's the first disagreement I have every been involved on any forum and I usually really avoid unnecessary conflicts.
     
  27. StevenPicard

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    Fair enough. I'd much rather make friends on the forum than enemies.

    Anyways, perhaps when ideas are given people can let Pit answer?
     
  28. Ryuichi173

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    I completely agree with you because of Unity limitation.
    Do multithreading cost is not so good compared than optimize codes and logics.
    (BTW, UniRx approach is not focused on multithreading, but boost up speed of coroutines by tech, too.)

    And I've read part of codes and I'm now surprising. What a lot of codes you've rewritten!o_O
    Logics have changed a lot of ways, and coroutines are separated and optimized!
    Thank you Pit!

    ps.

    Deathmatch demo scene's performance becoming worse and worse not because of AI, just because of mines and explosions and physics update!
    How about changing amount of mines by default in future update? I'm worrying that It would be cause people miss-understanding of your asset.:(
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  29. julianr

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    I don't have that issue with the deathmatch - are you on a laptop? i7/16 gig ram/GTX 960 it flys in the editor, even more so on GTX1070
     
  30. StevenPicard

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    I'm installing the update now. I'm on a laptop and I'll give some feedback on the performance. It'll be interesting to see how well it performs on mine.
     
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  31. Teila

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    You certainly did not offend me. :)

    As I said before, I was only telling you the limitations of putting such things on the asset store without having a full fledged demo. The rules have become more strict lately. I know too many asset developers who had to redo their submissions due to the changes.

    I never ever meant anything personal. If I did, you would know, I promise. :) You were not at all offensive.

    This is a public forum and Pit already has stated how overwhelming support can be. If you want to ask him and only him, you really should email or PM him privately.

    Otherwise, we will express our opinions. :) That is a good thing!
     
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  32. Ryuichi173

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    Hi julianr,

    Oh really? I'm tested the scene using old desktop PC.

    What version of Unity are you using? It might be caused by Unity version, I guess...
    Or it might be better to start with empty project to test.
     
  33. julianr

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    I tested it with Unity 5.6.3f1 and Unity 2017.2. I can try it on an i5 also, how old is your desktop? I have a Windows vista machine (quite an old desktop) - so could probably try it on that and see which Unity version it performs better on.

    I always develop on a slow specification graphics card (mid range) so you know that anything higher than that spec will make the game run faster. A few people I know develop on the highest spec machine and then when they test it on lower spec machines it lags beyond belief.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  34. Ryuichi173

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    I tested with corei7 x8 and old GTX680 4gb:p
    Yes I know it is too old but people who do not have good gaming PC try to pray on such spec sometimes.
     
  35. julianr

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    It's more likely to be the spec of the card. GTX 960s are quite cheap these days. I think I have a GTX 650 I could try it on. The fans on my graphics cards often take dust in the intake, which can warm up the heatsink and slow your card down as the fan then needs to work harder and its linked to the processor so it will generally slow down (well that's my theory) - so if you have any dry air it might be worth seeing if its clogged up - it can often improve performance :)
     
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  36. StevenPicard

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    It worked great on my laptop (that's a great demo to include with ICE!) i7\GTX 870M.
     
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  37. coverpage

    coverpage

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    I'm slightly perturbed by this tone. This is a relatively cheap piece of software with a solo developer. He might've promised to accommodate, but you have to remember the bounds of your demands. Moreso, when it come to non-core features such as 3rd party integrations.

    We've purchased ICE at USD45. That's cheaper than a developer's man-day to develop that integration.

    I've asked for integrations in many low-priced assets in UAS and they reply, "I'll do something about that", to which they don't. I can't complain as they would have their own commitments in the form of jobs and family, and the fact that their effort cost much more than what I have paid for the core asset.
     
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  38. Ryuichi173

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    I had done several test, and I concluded that physics is the main cause of problem.
    Perhaps latest GPUs can manage physics better than before, I guess.

    Hmmm, but my old PC still can manage AAA games like on sold on steam.
    May be Unity has less ability to control physics compared than engine which used in AAA game studios, I guess.:confused:
     
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  39. coverpage

    coverpage

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    I like the idea, so it's an upvote for me. A suggestion, maybe Pit can collaborate with @arteria . His models are good quality at an afforable price. And they are sold at his site, not in asset store.
     
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  40. julianr

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    Using the editor and playing your game will have an impact on performance. See what its like after creating a build. If you are using 5.6 or 2017, you could always create multiple scenes and load them into your project. With the main scene having a scene loader script on a game object that you enable before a build - this way when you've added your scenes to the build manager and you create your build they will load up - and if your game is quite large think about using World Streamer (also works in the editor) or Sectr to cut up your game into chunks so that its streamed in, or use a camera culling system. Using an initial scene loader will also help and prevent your players from wondering what is going on with a progress loading bar on a large scene full of detail.
     
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  41. Ryuichi173

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    Hi julianr

    Thank you advise, and of course!
    Building time is bored but editor test is very heavy I see.
    Anyway, it is pleasure to know ICE test scene works on latest PC even if on test play mode!
    (I felt deathmatch demos performance has been worse than before. But I know it is because of machine spec now.)

    By the way, talking about World Streamer and Sectr, have you ever tried to build them with ICE?
    I have not tested that because I was using ICE for only limited purpose and situation before.
     
  42. julianr

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    I've had both assets (World Streamer and Sectr) for some time now - they have evolved quite well. Since upgrading to 2017.2, from 5.6 I have had about 20-30 fps drop from my game in a build. Quality and lighting is of course better and with additional things that may also have an impact but I had no choice to upgrade due to build issues with 5.6 on a large scale terrain with lots of trees and rocks - LOD errors prevented me building due to the 32 bit limits on a 64 bit build - which were meant to be fixed in 5.6 (that was still an issue for my project).

    No longer do I have this issue on 2017.x - I am in the process of testing World Streamer and Sectr with ICE CC, and also Easy Cull - which will determine whether I use World Streamer for static object streaming and Easy Cull for just ICE CC AI or use Sectr with hibernate option for ICE CC so it will freeze AI until you go back in range and Sectr Vis for camera culling. With the option of using the Core GameKit to spawn and despawn AI in waves based on distance but using their pooling system instead of ICE CC pooling/spawning as it has greater control over what you can do with your AI.

    I guess I will find out the best solution in the next few days :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  43. lawsochi

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    Thank you very much that you impart experience of your experiment. So such data arent enough to understand whether it will work for each of us. I hope, you will be able to share results.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  44. zenGarden

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    With 1.4 Ice Creatures doesn't work if i use "Player" tag for a rule interactor , while it works with scene GameObject reference.



    Anyone got this issue ?
     
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  45. Tethys

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    I can confirm to have this issue with the last version but I haven't been able to test 1.4. It is a problem because my game is multiplayer and procedurally generated, so everything from home targets, waypoints and ground to players and enemies are added on the fly and found through tag. I have been keeping a disabled copy of each in the hierarchy but haven't been able to test this thoroughly enough to know if its a solid solution. Seems to work fine for my waypoints right now.
     
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  46. anunnaki2016

    anunnaki2016

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    you have check creature register if your player is it ? or your player have a tag player? i got the same problem in version 1.4, but in version 1.3 is work 1000%
     
  47. Tethys

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    Its not just "Player" tag heh. Its all tags - if the object with the tag is not in the scene view the parameter goes null or wrong.
     
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  48. anunnaki2016

    anunnaki2016

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    yes i have too game in multiplayer so i get the same problem in version 1.4
     
  49. julianr

    julianr

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Posts:
    1,114
    Does it go green when in range and the count increases, not being null?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  50. icetec

    icetec

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Posts:
    592
    Hi anunnaki2016, that's correct so far ...

    1. The target settings of prefabs cannot be edited because all targets of a creature are bound to the CreatureRegister of a specific scene. If this protection would not given, you could overwrite targets by mistake in cases if the scene with the related CreatureRegister isn't open.
    2. a valid target must be active in the hierachy, otherwise the target will be displayed as invalid. But this doesn't means that the target settings are wrong, as soon as the defined target will be spawned and/or active in scene the target will be displayed as valid.

    I hope my explanation is understandable so far, it is a protective mechanism to prevent overwriting the targets while editing a prefab.
     
    zrocweb likes this.
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