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Official Update to the Unity Editor Software Terms

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by LeonhardP, Nov 6, 2023.

  1. Mike-Geig

    Mike-Geig

    Unity Technologies

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    See, that's kind of my point though. As you said, your work projects are on older versions anyway. Let's say we delay a year and apply this to the release in 2025. You may upgrade to the version in 2024, and then we would have this conversation all over again, "Why would I upgrade to the new terms in 2025?"

    At some point we just need to pick a version and commit.
     
  2. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Unity 2023 LTS being under the old terms means that any current projects can be finished and the developer won't have to spring the new license agreement on their clients mid-project while still receiving up to the full two years of support.

    You do have to draw the line somewhere and being able to point to the LTS release being under the old license is a great way to say that the company worked with developers to make it available as long as possible. Unity needs all they can get right now to make developers look at them in a positive light.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
  3. Mike-Geig

    Mike-Geig

    Unity Technologies

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    I totally get it. All I can offer is that I will raise that perspective internally. Even as popular as the forums are, it is still a microcosm and a decision like this requires a much broader understanding of user opinions.
     
    MadeFromPolygons and Ryiah like this.
  4. Nest_g

    Nest_g

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    Every day and every new announce less hope to recover the trust in Unity.
     
    MrGuardianX likes this.
  5. my_little_kafka

    my_little_kafka

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    I think that a good first step in building the trust for Unity would be to admit that they promised the ability to stay on old ToS, then, without saying anything, they retracted this statement, and now they did it again. Admitting that and giving even a pinky promise this will not happen again will be very welcomed.
     
  6. Mike-Geig

    Mike-Geig

    Unity Technologies

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    How is this less? Curious what you felt fell short
     
  7. Mike-Geig

    Mike-Geig

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    The old ToS wouldn't have worked anyway. They were written back when the editor was our primary product and caused legal confusion around the people that didn't use the editor. Still, what's done is done

    For this ToS moving forward, I can offer more than a pinky promise. I can offer a "whole hand" promise. We are adding wording that prevents the ToS for previous versions from changing, now written to apply to the entire ecosystem of Unity solutions (not just the editor)
     
    TreyK-47 and my_little_kafka like this.
  8. Nest_g

    Nest_g

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    Many users lost (i included) the trust in Unity for two major reasons, the runtime fee and the change in pass TOS, in this last announce Unity say: we will be respect the pass TOS, but too that continue with the runtime fee, Unity can say that now with the updates de runtime fee is a "optional" way to pay to Unity but is clear that in the future this can be the unique way to pay royalties to Unity, really Unity can explain thousands of reasons to not remove the new runtime fee but the resume is that many users dont trust in this type of royalties (with dozens of game engines Unity is the only that decide use it), in few words is crazy but if with Unity Stocks down from $39 to $25 for this and after the John Riccitielo resign for this too then there is no way that Unity understand the problem and less a way to recover the users trust, sorry for my english.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
  9. my_little_kafka

    my_little_kafka

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    Glad to hear that. As a hobbyist developing a game in Unity for a pretty long time I have nowhere to go, either I make a game in Unity, or make no game at all.
    But the thing is, Unity doesn't profit from hobbyists (aside from Asset Store purchases I never paid for Unity services), and the people who give Unity money on annual basis (contractors, medium-large studios, etc.) are pretty angry with Unity's decisions. And these people are the ones who cannot stay on an older version forever, as they need new versions to build on consoles, on mobile, etc.
     
    DrMeatball likes this.
  10. Slashbot64

    Slashbot64

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    Is everyone just looking for exit plans at this point, Unity are doing nothing of any value, they made of mess of rendering, terrain is a joke (the community given up on even asking for fixes and performance improvements, jbooth alone seems to have endless complaints and suggestions for quick fixes they could do but don't.. they never bother contacting him) honestly sick of hearing about all the problems, this company has completely lost the damn plot.. no I don't care about AI or XR or Ad nonsense or any service..what was the point all these third party purchases... the only semi decent thing to come out of Unity that I've not had a complaint about was cinemachine honestly.

    yeah is some other things buts overall its all a giant incomplete mess. UI, Input (hotkey rebinding was like some sort of damn after thought, and the whole implementation is some kinda overly complicated mess, Networking (eeh again a third party is just better fishnet) .. I don't care about DOTS, I care more that URP/HDRP has been the biggest annoyance and continues to be a disappoint for years... to both the package management and addons that do or don't support the huge mess of versions where BIRP despite being abandoned for years still competes, asset store still being a complete shtshow on pink shaders and endless missing scripts that still never get any meta data saved to give a clue as to what the original script name was.

    UE roadmap in the last 2 years suggests this engine has met its end, they want to endless mobile crapware no one but ad execs care about and people who like the VR/AR nonsense.

    Sadly I don't even like UE its awful in many ways, but they also have been doing a lot of good things.. supporting C# isn't one of them. Is still other engines and at this point I losing the interest to care about this engine given the last 5years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
  11. jjejj87

    jjejj87

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    Its this very type of thinking of Unity that led to the recent self destruction.
    • Thinking that not many people will notice
    • Thinking that not enough people will fight back
    • Thinking that you guys will get away with it
    I've been working with 2023 since Alpha, adjusting APIs and subsystems for mainstreaming development. All the bug reports and feedback, thanks to you guys is now going down the drain. Oh wait, I can just donate part of my revenue and pay double the subscription fee to gain access.

    Don't know how we are supposed to believe that everything happening "is not related", but sure, I will try.
    If not many people are effected, and is so not significant, then why don't you make 2023LTS part of the old ToS.
    But you can't because it does matter...and you guys are really hoping to rag as many people as possible.
    Here is what you said
    It's a good point? But you need to draw a line somewhere? Its a good call out? Don't know how to remedy?

    In all honesty...you guys just really suck. Straight up.
     
    gordo32 likes this.
  12. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    I mean they had to draw a line somewhere, so they chose this really really awkward line because they are super desperate. (or at least this is definitely how it looks like).
     
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  13. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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  14. gordo32

    gordo32

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  15. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Nah, I'll just grab some popcorn.
     
    atomicjoe likes this.
  16. oninoshiko

    oninoshiko

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    No, that's not the full ToS, that's only the Additional Terms. It's a supplement to the primary terms which they do not have public change tracking of.

    EDIT: The primary terms has a clause granting them permission to change and add fees. When will that clause be removed?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
  17. AcidArrow

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    The relevant part about the faux protections is there, for the full TOS I guess you would have to look at the internet archive wayback machine or something.
     
  18. hopeful

    hopeful

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    Separate the 2023 cycle from 2024 tech development. There is no reason to lump them together. Get the 2023 LTS out on the normal schedule.

    If Unity is moving to a model of one tech release per year, and a LTS every other year, then say so, and handle it properly. 2024 is coming up, and if this is the new model for tech and LTS release, then the time to announce it is now.

    Unity is showing red flags all over the place. From where I sit, I'd say it is almost certainly not-so-stealthily abandoning what used to be the core business of a game engine / editor. Development has been cut in half, with money spent in other directions. The executives are following a new model of bringing in investor money and stuffing their bank accounts with it, without any care or respect for what used to be the core business. They'll glide into the sunset on platinum parachutes, having built nothing, leaving behind a wrecked company, a wrecked customer base, and sore employees who took the brunt of it before losing their jobs.
     
  19. Mike already hinted it, we should face the fact that Unity Engine isn't the core product of Unity anymore, for a while now, and we are lucky if it's a second-class citizen. Don't worry, the company will be just fine. We'll be screwed though, as it was intended and recognized already. And frankly, it was the writing on the wall for a long time now, we (well, I for one for sure) didn't want to accept it.
     
  20. Mike-Geig

    Mike-Geig

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    Not my intention to hint any such thing. The engine / editor is still our most important and invested in area. It just is no longer our only one.
     
    MadeFromPolygons likes this.
  21. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    If I ever cheat on my wife and she finds out, I'll paraphrase this if that's ok, along with some bits about needing to repair trust from previous posts.
     
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  22. hopeful

    hopeful

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    As for "not accepting it," I think that's what's going on with most people. I would not be shocked if Unity as we know it was gone by this time next year. IMO, the next LTS may never be published, and the new TOS may never apply to anybody.

    No ill wishes. It would be great if I'm wrong. It just feels like we're sliding to a stop.
     
  23. Nah, I don't think this would happen. Unity Engine will be around as an extension of the mobile advertisement and military simulation arms', serving the single purpose of feed into their business.
    What is about us is that Indie game development isn't relevant to Unity anymore. It's not even secondary.

    We read everywhere that Unity is a "users first" company, but every single decision in the past five years was about anything but in favors of users. It was in favor of business alone. If it incidentally served us users, then it was celebrated as unimaginable achievement, when it was not in favor, it was "what can we do", it was "a good point", it was "drawing a line somewhere" or a "good call out but we don't know how to remedy".

    So no, Unity as a business will survive, indie game development in Unity will sink lower and lower until some other engine takes over indefinitely. I hope it won't be Godot... at least not in its current form.
     
  24. Peter77

    Peter77

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    That would be a disaster for a large sector of the gaming industry. Many jobs rely on the existence of Unity.

    However, I have already noticed a significant decrease in Unity job offerings in the past few weeks. I am unsure if this is due to the current poor state of the gaming industry or how Unity is now perceived since the introduction of the Runtime Fee.
     
    MadeFromPolygons likes this.
  25. Well, end of the year is always dead in the industry, plus this year it was extreme slasher horror story, too many devs lost their jobs, so if there are any openings, those probably filled by word of mouth rather than advertised openings (unless it is mandatory, as it is in some jurisdictions). So I don't know either if it's really an outcome of Unity's decisions or the fact that the business environment is rotten to the core the begin with.
     
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  26. altepTest

    altepTest

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    there is no difference, if you created the game you own it.

    think this scenario:

    you have created a painting, you own and you can sell it. The company that produced and sold to you the oil paints, can't claim ownership on the painting even if the actual physical colors they have created are sold WITH the painting.

    For the unity tool to work is mandatory that the piece of software named unity runtime is included in the game.

    You can't create the game without the runtime the unity tool as a whole will not work, will be pointless. The same like with the paints in the painting, you can't have the painting without the paint.

    this is exactly the opposite as explained above. the unity runtime is an essential part of unity software as a tool. You can't chose to not include it, is not a feature that makes your game better. Either you include it and your game works or you don't include it and the game doesn't exist.

    if you want to understand legal documents you need to pay attention on the hierarchy. meaning Unity Runtime is part of Unity Software. Which means that whatever legal meaning Unity Software has it also applies for the sub components this Unity Software has. If parts of the license conflicts with parts that are more important in the hierarchy then these less important parts become void.

    What lawyers do when writing these TOS license is to scramble the hierarchy as much as possible so without having access to lawyers with the same expertise is hard for the normal person to read and understand what is going on. This is not something exclusive to unity everybody do this, and what is even worse is that even governments do this.
     
  27. oninoshiko

    oninoshiko

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    Your hypothetical is wrong for two reasons. First, they didn't sell you the runtime; they are licensing it to you. Second, they aren't making claim to any of your original work, only the things that you didn't create (the runtime).

    What you're calling "the game" is a work which you only one the copyrights to PARTS of, Unity still owns the copyrights to the runtime. While it may be foreign to someone who's never worked on a project with multiple people holding copyrights, it's well understood in law. You see this all the time with games and film using existing music from artists, and it will sometimes lead to situations where the license expires and the work cannot continue to be sold.
     
    UhOhItsMoving likes this.
  28. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    Zero percent of your reply answers my question; I did not ask "what will Unity argue?" Read the question again:
    In other words, reference at least one part (if any) from the TOS that answers the question "who owns the user-created scripts/code?"
    Yes, I am arguing from the perspective of how I would defend it, which is exactly the same as you and @TheOtherMonarch arguing how they would defend it, except for one key difference that I am me, thus, I can speak for me, but you are not the legal system, so you cannot speak for the legal system. So, while I can tell you for a fact how I interpret them, you cannot tell me for a fact how the legal system will.

    My guess as to what Unity would argue is just as cynical as yours: they will argue whatever they can to benefit themselves. This is a given, hence, why I'm not arguing from that perspective, but rather, from my perspective, because, at the end of the day, if I do get into a legal situation, I'm going to have to defend MYSELF, not them.

    Also, if you've been using Unity this whole time, and you have this serious of a concern, why do you not already have clarification on this, whether from Unity themselves or from a lawyer? I don't use Unity, so it makes sense that I wouldn't have that clarification. What's your excuse?
    A lawsuit being completely stupid won't stop a lawsuit.
     
  29. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Because Unity's word means nothing (they can change the terms at any time, so whatever they may tell me now can be invalid tomorrow) and the best a lawyer can do is "well, if they come after you, you have a defense", but seeing as I don't have a legal department, if Unity comes after me that's already a failure state for me, even if the law is on my side, because I don't think I have enough resources to take them on.

    So if we consider Unity to be a bad actor (and I do, in the sense that I believe the sum of all the vectors of the people at Unity, weighted based on the amount on control they actually have, which means mostly the C Suite, board and maybe some managers matter, leans negatively, a lot), no clarifications nor lawyers (at least ones I can afford) will do me any good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
  30. UhOhItsMoving

    UhOhItsMoving

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    @altepTest To save myself the typing, I'll just say I agree with what oninoshiko said. The only thing I will add is that the Unity Runtime is not paint, but rather software, and software is protected under copyright. Considering you are distributing software that you are not the copyright owner of, you need to get permission to do so from the copyright owner, and in order to get that permission, you need to agree to the terms of the copyright owner, and part of those terms can, in fact, include payment, whether up front, a fee/royalty, or other.
     
    Mark_01 likes this.
  31. eurasian_69

    eurasian_69

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    When does the Unity earnings call start?

    Their share price has suddenly crashed nearly 15% in the last few minutes of after-hours trading.
     
    hopeful likes this.
  32. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    5PM EST, so not yet, but maybe something leaked / was released?
     
  33. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    They missed a bit on analyst revenue expectations, and they beat EPS (but still negative EPS). Doesn't seem too terrible to me, but also this is supposed to be a tech company that is growing super fast and doing meh doesn't quite cut it, I guess.
     
  34. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Want to hear a joke?
    upload_2023-11-9_23-51-58.png

    Also
    upload_2023-11-9_23-53-4.png

    Lack of guidance does imply things are dire, so on top of the meh earnings could be the reason for the freefall.
     
    MadeFromPolygons likes this.
  35. oninoshiko

    oninoshiko

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    I would say it implies uncertainty. That said, Mr. Market doesn't particularly like uncertainty.
     
  36. eurasian_69

    eurasian_69

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    "...we are currently doing too much, we are not achieving the synergies that exist across our portfolio, and we are not executing to our full potential..."

    "... discontinuing certain product offerings, reducing our workforce, and reducing our office footprint."

    etc etc
     
  37. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Basically they're going to keep laying people off.
     
  38. gordo32

    gordo32

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    full reset, more layoffs, all time low stock, insider sales just before earnings. yes, jim, business as usual.
     
  39. Amon

    Amon

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    They say the problems the runtime fee introduction caused them are behind them now but what they failed to mention is, yes it is behind them, but it is still fully clamped to their buttcheaks..
     
  40. gordo32

    gordo32

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    i don't think the problems have even started yet. the real test is, when developers make decisions about new projects. may be why they didn't have guidance. maybe they just don't know what's gonna happen.
     
  41. Amon

    Amon

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    There's two things there that will more than likely bring Unity Technologies years of pain.

    1: Will devs use unity for new projects?
    2:Will they ever know and be sure that the rug won't be pulled out from under them again?

    IMHO what unity has done and how they have behaved has made the above two things very real. Not only that but every time a comment or post is made by unity officials, employess etc it makes us see that they truly don't see how deep that hole they dug for themselves really is, and that they are still digging.
     
  42. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    The most important part is whether they will keep using Levelplay or switch to Applovin or something. That’s where Unity makes its money, and those are the parts of the company they have and are going to focus on. They could care less about indies selling their games for a few bucks.
     
    retired_unity_saga likes this.
  43. retired_unity_saga

    retired_unity_saga

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    Alright,

    so whats the generalized consensus?

    Keep on, trust in Unity leadership, be realistic, depend on unity team development cycle to come through for us?

    2023 alpha has some interesting performance gains with Forward+ and instancing,

    Turn around time, is a factor,

    in fact it is chief alluring charm of what brings devs here, you slap assets into a project, suffer through the incomprehensible pain of the input mapper, pray shader or code doesn't break, build project, and debug forever and turn some form of prospect to profit (after around 50% is taken away by tax).


    This horrid taste of bad management, what the?

    Just release the source code, and charge 5% royalty over $1,000,000.00 million already.
    What the hell is this!? What is going on?!

    What does a Unity Pro subscription get a dev? The engine is insanely buggy. It's so buggy people will fear updating their projects version.

    Why do we have so many different versions? This is chaos. Then, it is OK, at least unity doesn't demand runtime royalty fees on top of thi-- oh.

    Oh, right, right, we get buggy + odd decisions (gigaya abandoned), what???
     
    DrMeatball likes this.
  44. t-ley

    t-ley

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    Real buggy
    if anyone ever asks me personally I’d recommend unreal engine to learn first, to pay for an editor that always crashes. At least unreal a free
     
  45. altepTest

    altepTest

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    Is not software and just that.

    is a special type of software defined as a "Tool" this has legal meaning, is not some random stuff I'm talking about.

    If you fail to grasp this concept then the arguments against my point may appear correct. But you failing to take in account the "Tool" part.

    Let us take a game made with unity. Is that a "Tool"? the game I mean. No, the player purchase it, play the game, be done.

    Is Photoshop a tool? Yes. They can't ask for a fee from the stuff you produce out of Photoshop.

    Yeah but you are generating images, Photoshop doesn't own your images, you may say.

    Not quite

    They own the PSD format, a special type of file owned by Adobe. Is like the Runtime from unity, a special type of file that is part of the "Tool" as a whole which you can generate, give to others, no "runtime fee" required each time you give the file to someone else.

    Even if Adobe "licensed" to you the use of the PSD format.
     
  46. hellno2015

    hellno2015

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    I would really like to to switch to unreal or godot from from what I hear Unreal's 2d support is not great. and also it's apparently way better for AAA development with teams as opposed to single-person indie development. Also it's documentation is apparently not great.

    And Godot from my experience crashes more then unity and can even sometimes corrupt the project.
     
    futalihua likes this.
  47. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Treat the company as one that doesn't care at all about indie developers. That's my takeaway from listening to the earnings call.
     
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  48. hellno2015

    hellno2015

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    I honestly don't think they are going to change the license for the worse. Not because I don't think they'll try. But because if they had pushed through with that original deal back in September, Pokemon, Genshink/Honkai Impact, VR chat and god knows what other massive company's that use unity would tear that company apart and sue it into oblivion.
     
  49. TheOtherMonarch

    TheOtherMonarch

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    I missed the call. A few excerpts from an article about the call.

    "I mean, this is a 'rip off the Band-Aid' reset,"

    "It's entirely feasible that Whitehurst is charged with cleaning up the company ahead of a future attempted sale or merger."

    https://www.morningstar.com/news/ma...g-moment-to-win-back-developers-and-investors

    We knew this was coming if any company needs restructuring it is Unity. We will need to wait and see what direction Unity takes in the future.
     
  50. oninoshiko

    oninoshiko

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    Once again, you screw up an analogy. No, Adobe doesn't own the PSD format. They defined it. They own one specific application that can open it. You can get other software to read (and write) PSD files. You own the PSD, you don't own the software to view it. In this analogy the PSD is your artwork, scripts, music, etc. that are in your game. Just like the PSD needs a viewer to view the artwork, you need the runtime to play the game. If you want to clean-room develop a runtime (like the developers of The GIMP did for PSD), and use your assets with that, you are free to. That's what the license says.