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Unreal Engine 5 = Game Changer

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by adamz, May 13, 2020.

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  1. shredingskin

    shredingskin

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    That makes me worry too. If you were a new developer, there's not much incentive on using Unity unless you want to create AR stuff, and I think most of us became developers wanting to create games (and AAA is the gateway drug).
    Meanwhile UE4 gives you thousands of assets to boot, monthly stuff, a more robust engine.
    Unity is trying to go the service route, selling ads (which google undercuts their price), selling havok, selling tutorials, selling analytics, selling their online platform (which is still not ready), machine learning farms, third party software (while Epic gives mixer for free).
    I'm probably not alone that the only thing that keeps me using Unity is the great assets they have (and UE already made a move to pay them more).
    I think their best move is to just focus on mobile and web, which is kinda sad for all of us doing bigger projects.
     
  2. AcidArrow

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    Someone asks and it’s clarified in the replies of this tweet. It’s per title. I guess they figured out it would be more costly to try and figure out who might be over their previous limit, making it not worth it for them. Unity on the other hand has no problem with that it seems.

    https://twitter.com/danacowley/status/1260631135220109319?s=21
     
  3. Ony

    Ony

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  4. Antony-Blackett

    Antony-Blackett

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    Companies would just found a new subsidiary company per game anyway. To save 5% of $1million, that's what I would do.
     
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  5. Creepgin

    Creepgin

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    Hehe, if Epic were Unity, they'd release UE5 as a preview package right now =D
     
  6. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Epic Games seems determined to prove to the industry that a royalty license is the correct way to commercial an engine and everything they do suggests that they're correct. That and creating a runaway money making game to fund engine development.
     
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  7. Antony-Blackett

    Antony-Blackett

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    Yeah, it's also partly that their game makes more money than their engine. So I think part of it is just a mission to allow others to make awesome games. If they make 5%, that's a nice bonus, but that'd require 20 other developers to develop something as successful for them to even equal the revenue of fortnight.

    if it were an exercise in money making their online services would definitely not be free, especially to devs outside of unreal engine or epic store...
     
  8. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Unity's quiet as hell today.
     
  9. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    Yeap, probably thinking of a cool 'preview' to give us lol.
     
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  10. l33t_P4j33t

    l33t_P4j33t

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    Heh, that's nothing. DOTS will completely BTFO Unreal Engine
    HDRP is almost as good anyway, it has raytracing as well!
    Unity will always dominate in the mobile, 2D and light 3D indie space
     

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  11. PublicEnumE

    PublicEnumE

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    I mean...it wouldn't be smart to do something which could be seen as S*** talking a competitive product, on the day of it's reveal. Especially without knowing more about the product.
     
  12. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Honestly though, none of this really matters to me in any significant way because:
    • I need the pipeline control I get out of Unity that isn't really in UE4/5 for the games I make
    • I have been working with Unity for so long that I can accomplish things in it far faster than I could in UE until probably at least a year after working with it
    • I have created a multitude of frameworks for Unity that dramatically improve my workflow that aren't natively available in either UE or Unity that would have to be ported
    • I am supremely lazy
     
  13. CDF

    CDF

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    Submit a bug report.

    Case #99999999999 "Lack of response on Unreal Engine 5"
     
  14. Acissathar

    Acissathar

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    Is dark theme + splash screen removal still an unreasonable request?
     
  15. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    “By Design”
     
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  16. AcidArrow

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    What and then lose all that clusterfuck splash screen code in XCode that makes using splash screens buggy for everyone?
     
  17. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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  18. l33t_P4j33t

    l33t_P4j33t

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    I agree, unity is allot more bait and switch. I don't think there's a single person on the planet that is not working for unity that can figure out how they did their IK animations, netcode, other dots stuff etc in the multiplayer sample

    However i have great faith in joachim ante
     
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  19. jjejj87

    jjejj87

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    That's exactly what I thought when UE4 was first released...
    but thinking back, and observing the gap that widened since then, and the prospective difference that will result in a few years...

    I decided to redownload UE4 and start from scratch. Just getting knee-deep in their workflow...and honestly it isn't that bad other than the blueprint...

    lighting is really way better than Unity...

    It is painful, but I will rather jump ship now than mid-project...
    Hopefully, in a few months, my proficiency will be about the same as in Unity...
    It doesn't make any sense to stick with Unity now...
    1 mil per title...no brainer mates...
     
  20. razzraziel

    razzraziel

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  21. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    I'll have to stay on unity a bit longer, I need to figure out how to bake real time shadow to finish my proof of concept lighting :rolleyes: I wonder how hard it would have been on unreal.
     
  22. MrPaparoz

    MrPaparoz

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    I think it was last December, there were series of threads about SRPs, unfinished preview packages, editor workflows, blurred vision of Unity, dark theme etc. I read whole thread and noticed that nothing changed in Unity since then. Look what Unreal did and it's basically free for indie.

    Gotta admit, it's a burn.
     
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  23. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    The lighting may be better than in Unity, but I have an entire custom lighting model that makes use of the SRP in order to function at all and implementing that in UE would take likely months of trying to extend or rewrite parts of the engine. This is also the default lighting model that all my games are going to use.

    So it's not really exactly what you thought, I'd wager.

    Unity's extensibility is both a major problem (because of the disparate elements involved) but also a significant boon and UE has shown no signs of supporting that in any capacity I can make use of.
     
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  24. Antony-Blackett

    Antony-Blackett

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    unreal hasn’t done it yet. It’s just a demo.
     
  25. PhilSA

    PhilSA

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    I think this is something most Unity users don't realize.

    I tried to add a lit toon shader to UE4 a few years ago. In order to achieve that, I had to download the engine sources, figure out how the render pipeline works in UE4 because there is zero documentation, modify the sources, and recompile the engine. And now I was cut off from the engine upgrades unless I merged it myself.

    Speaking of engine upgrades, you can basically forget about them in UE4 unless you absolutely need them. It just isn't something you really do, because it tends to break everything. (and I mean really break things, not just a few errors)

    There are many aspects of UE4 that leave much to be desired, so we shouldn't assume the grass is always greener elsewhere. After seeing what I've seen today, it's still a really tough call for me. Programming alone in UE4 is an absolute nightmare
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  26. l33t_P4j33t

    l33t_P4j33t

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    On the contrary, C# is a very very very big advantage, in terms of compile time, simplicity and consistency. C++ is old and is a big mess, it has many undefined behaviours and a million different ways of doing the same thing. C# has the best standard libraries of any language, C# has better implemented features like generics vs C++ templates, C++ can break in a million different ways without even throwing an error. It was a very prudent decision and a strange one to make, considering Unity started out as a was a mac exclusive.

    Mono's legality was way in the grey area back then
     
  27. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    ...

    Could Unity at least please consider making HDRP have the relevant code paths and optimisations to be able to achieve URP performance?

    And make HDRP the default when that time comes.

    This is at least going to remove one of the big pain points in Unity, having a high end pipeline that can scale from raytrace to mobile VR (Quest).

    I see zero reason why HDRP can't be the unified pipeline everyone wants. It's already greatly optimised, it just needs a forward only option which matches the URP performance characteristics, then graceful scaling is possible.

    If this is a bad idea please let me know why.
     
  28. razzraziel

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  29. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I think plenty of people are aware of limitations.

    Unity is closer to being a pure framework than unreal and has higher hackability in some places. Shader system in particular.

    However, at times it makes sense if you NEED that. For example, if PBR is exactly what you want, then why bother with hackable shader pipeline?
     
  30. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    How many years is "a few years ago"? Are we talking about a time period within the first year of its release? Because if we are that's completely expected just like currently there is very little in the way of documentation and learning materials for the new SRP and DOTS.
     
  31. GoGoGadget

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    The reality is, no, Unity don't/shouldn't need to copy this sort of virtualized geometry tech, not that they'd be able to anytime soon given it literally took the guy 10 years to develop.

    I've used Unity since 4.x, and its strength has always been in usability. I would get so excited if Unity's next 'big' release was some gamechanger in terms of authoring content somehow. Back in the day, it was so exciting to pick up Unity, and know that all you had to do to make a build of your game for mobile was... Essentially, click a button (to get it up and running, obviously optimization is a different thing).

    Now, Unity's core strength in that area has been hampered greatly by the divergence of 3 render pipelines, multiple unfinished post-processing, networking, and input systems, DOTs/ECS... It's a mess. The reality is, as small/independent game developers, we really don't need the ability to have 500 cinematic-level models in a scene, but what we do need is confidence that every hour of work put in is actually contributing to the end product. Now, developing in Unity almost feels like playing constant catch-up to the technical instability of the core engine, with so much changing so frequently. That's what Unity need to address, not how many uncompressed full-res models can fit into a cave.
     
  32. PhilSA

    PhilSA

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    about 3 years ago, but I still get notifications from the thread I started in UE4 forums regarding the implementation of custom shaders, and it does seem to still be something we can't do without modding the sources
     
  33. Huknar

    Huknar

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    I remember sharing these concerns back when the SRP were announced. You didn't seem to agree with me back then so I'm surprised to hear you've changed your thoughts a bit.

    The split pipelines were a huge mistake. I understand why they did them, but I think Unity forgot themselves and their customers in the process. Unity is beloved because it's multiplatform and being able to scale across those platforms is a huge reason why people chose it. Also because it's pretty easy to use and a lot of the hard work is done for us.

    I think Unity relied too much on the idea that people could go in and and make their own pipelines to accommodate their own features when in reality that still requires expert knowledge in graphics rendering. And worse, their pipelines are not nearly as custom feature friendly as the built on renderer.
     
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  34. thelebaron

    thelebaron

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    I absolutely disagree with this as the workflow/qol improvements for realtime gi and negating the need go through the retopologize bake dance/jig is something that would absolutely make sense to have in unity. Being able to get 500 30million poly meshes running in your scene is just gravy.
     
  35. l33t_P4j33t

    l33t_P4j33t

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    N-no biggie
    Just wait till DOTS™!
     

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  36. GoGoGadget

    GoGoGadget

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    We don't know how it works or if it even works on anything with a slower SSD than a PS5. Of course it's great tech that eventually will become the norm as hardware evolves. But I know for a fact that most people using Unity aren't making PS5 exclusive games right now, and as enticing as streaming in extremely large, 20mil poly assets from your average HDD user on Steam would be, my point is that it's not something that's needed by Unity at this very minute.
     
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  37. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I highly doubt the realtime global illumination has anything to do with the storage of the PS5, but even if it did they have stated that it's not restricted to just the PS5 and that the key features they're debuting will work across all of the next gen console platforms. The Xbox Series X has at most half the performance of the PS5's SSD. It's very close to PCIe 3 SSDs.

    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...xt-gen-unreal-engine-running-on-playstation-5
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
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  38. neoshaman

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    The GI is probably a variant of ddgi and svgi anyway, ie update and store style GI, it probably work with any hardware with some adaptation, just that update is made possible by next gen.
     
  39. Murgilod

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    Another thing is that Unity shouldn't chase this tech because we're still waiting for them to fix the problems the engine has.
     
  40. AcidArrow

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    That will never happen though because Unity prefers abandoning features than fixing them.
     
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  41. Murgilod

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    Supposedly the next few updates are about feature stability, so I'll wait to see how that pans out first.
     
  42. AcidArrow

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    I think I’m so jaded with Unity at this point I can’t give them the benefit of the doubt. Have done it in the past, didn’t end well for me.
     
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  43. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I think they've discovered that they're better off buying AAA tech companies and archviz solutions and charging a huge sum to access them rather than dumping random new features in the engine. They're just distracted in a new way
     
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  44. l33t_P4j33t

    l33t_P4j33t

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    but honestly, under the hood, isn't unity allot better right now?
    Unreal doesn't even exist in the mobile space, or 2d, or anything that's not an fps for PC & console. Unity is making great strides that way, it's amazing how you can make < 1mb size builds now with project tiny.

    Unity is great for making simple ui based apps as well now that UI elements is out. Who needs xcode, react native and Android Development Kit anymore.

    Unreal doesn't utilize multi threading in blueprints and doesn't at all help you make multi threaded code. Nor do they have any implementation of the entity component system.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
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  45. neoshaman

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    So this new technique of virtualized mesh is baking them to texture quad, then use that pack them ... so it's all texture all teh way down, which is why they got the 1 triangle per pixel? and why they don't need LOD, it's just a wavelet compression to get lower frequency version ... genius!

    edit: which mean they probably unify light, mesh and occlusion in one swoop ... BRILLIANT!

    edit2: another way to see it, it unified vertex position, UV and texture coordinate in one single data type ...

    edit3: wait that can work with skinned mesh too :eek:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  46. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Wavelet compression would be voxels. This doesn't seem to be voxels.

    Also shaders can generate geometry from texture data..
     
  47. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    It's not voxel
    it's: http://hhoppe.com/gim.pdf

    EDIT:
    there is probably a voxel support structure that lead to leaf patch, that would solve GI and occlusion, and add a great layer for a virtual paging solution that help streaming, ie solve all problem in a single implementation.


    edit:
    They probably evolve it, I based my conclusion on a 10 years old articles with a 6 years old comment of the author below, we will have to wait for them to spill the bean
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
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  48. ChazBass

    ChazBass

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    Unity should focus on their core market: indie and mobile. And keep hammering away at quality.

    Beautiful games fail left and right nowadays. That arms race is over. My 13 year old daughter spends 6 hours a day playing Fortnite because it is fun, not because it looks nice.
     
  49. m3rt32

    m3rt32

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    Honestly, I have been using Unity for 10 years now, almost every day and after what I saw today, I seriously questioned my path of choice. Let's put it this way, I don't see myself going more than a mobile game job which is not my career target path. HDRP and all is nice but when you look into forums and search for content, there is very limited response and quality user-made content. I have been thinking about using Unity to make a double-A HDRP game with a team and funding which I've been trying to secure, but seems like unreal is a better choice unless I wanna wait and struggle for 2-3 years for Unity to mature their tools, support, and community if ever happens tho.

    HDRP is cool, but I guess only Unity's themselves can use it efficiently. It doesn't feel like a good investment for a small team that is targeting photorealistic graphics and desktop/console platforms.(Which is more likely with Unreal, due to asset support, graphic fidelity and artist friendly setup by default)

    Personally, I think I'll use Unity for quick stylized stuff and mobile games from now on and learn Unreal for my long term goals.
     
  50. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    The funny thing is that once upon a time I was thinking of something vaguely similar, which I called "Equivalence mapping" and that was about transferring object geometry to a different topology.
    Given object A and object B, uniquely unwrap both models so they have non-repeating texture coordinatess.
    Retopolo object B to match shape of A, and render a texture for object B, where each point of texture will indicate which point of object A texture corresponds to it.

    Now you can do bulk transfer of shapes from topology A to B, by lookup. Render A world positions to texture, and on B topology for each vertex, check vertex coordinates, look up through equivalence map to find corresponding position of shape A for that specific point.

    What those guys are doing is splitting geometry into patches and storing those as textures. Nurbs would be quite close to it.

    But. That's not voxels. Voxels are atomontage stuff.
     
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