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Unreal Engine 5 = Game Changer

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by adamz, May 13, 2020.

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  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Well, code in shaders allow you to do something like this:
    https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4dGBRy

    I have VERY hard imagining implementation of this in nodes.
     
  2. Ofx360

    Ofx360

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    Yeah. I only bring it up because even though actual code might be more efficient or easy for some, so others its a very hard a tedious path.

    This, to me, is just like people who just have a hard time with scripting in code. In a lot of cases, if they have access to a visual editor, they’re able to breeze thru concepts that would have taken them forever to understand/google their way through. This allows them to personally be waaay more efficient with their time.

    Though, while i say that, I’d hate to be limited to one or the other. I love the fact that its pretty easy to get to the hlsl code from Shader Graph incase there’s something i want to add that i can’t from SG. And it seems like Unity will probably go that direction with their dots visual script as well, which is great. I like options.

    As far as i can tell, it seems like UE4 is pretty reliant on Blueprints, which to me is a downside because i much prefer scripting in code over a visual editor for 99% of things. I know that games can be made mostly in bp, but thats not a workflow i think i’d enjoy much
    Again, like i said, I understand some engineer is able to make magic in shadertoy. They might not even be able to do some of their magic in any version of a shader graph to come. But /for me/ a shader graph helps me to understand many concepts that would illude me otherwise. That, and i work much faster in a shader graph than i do punching out code. Mainly because a lot of the concepts and methods are well organized in a shader graph for me.

    But to an engineer that has been writing shaders most of their career? Probably not a necessary tool
     
  3. Havok_ZA

    Havok_ZA

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    Exactly the point I was making. Why then if they have better things to worry about, insist on alwasy telling non typists that something like blueprints "is wrong". I don't get the feeling that it's becasue they are bleeding hearts tryign to help the begginer.


    Using code is better ...for those us who liks typing stuff into an editor. Realising that people learn differently is where the rest of the argument falls appart. Not that hard to learn for you and me maybe, but perhaps not for someone else. Not to mention that code reuse is a lot easier to copy and paste and then modify.

    However, whenever some Indie developer/hobbiest comes and says that the fact that Blueprints allows him or her to actually make a game,in a fast and fun way, there is a traditional programmer who in fact doesnt have anything better to do it seems, than to tell that indie dev they are wrong....passionately so in most cases.
    I think arguing about it is losing focus. Why are the begginers using VS instead of choosing to code? What can we do in the tool to make it better, easier to use, more approachable?

    The only reason I can see for so feverishly being against Visual Scripting is that the programmers that has better things to do, see the better things they have to do as putting every Visual Programmer on "the right path"....their path. That to me seems like the more cultist behavior.

    Someone else made the argument as well...if coding traditionally is the be all and end all, then why use a game engine like Unity at all? Why not just code it all from scrath and then the coder can do whatever they want?

    Just to be clear...I'm not arguing why traditional proggraming or Visual coding is better. People seem to use Unreal for a lot of reasons - one of a multitude of reasons being Blueprints - they are making successful games.
    Then you get the traditionalists, that are saying they are wrong for doing so.
    I don't get that logic. If that Indie has no delusions of having a career as a coder why argue the point constantly? Perhaps this is another reason people are actually going to Unreal. The fact that visual coding is an acceptable way to make games 'over there'. Whereas here, perhaps they are told "just learn code" if they ask a question relating to Visual Coding.

    Anyway, I am not the torch bearer for visual coding or traditional coding - as you say, better stuff to do. However, I have taken a look at Unreal and I like what I see. It is very foreign coming from Unity though so I suspect for those that want to jump ship there will be a steepish learning curve.
    It does seem that their VR implementations are less hacky than currently in Unity.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  4. Kamyker

    Kamyker

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    You don't have to know git to use it. I've been using SourceTree past 4 years and almost never manually typed any git command. GitLab has 10GB limit per repo, in most cases that's enough as project can be split to submodules but in your case you'd have to make 30+ repos. GitHub 300gb would cost 30$/month.

    In your case I'd use GitLab, ignore one folder, put all big files there and keep making backup of it yourself on separate disks.
     
    lclemens likes this.
  5. Havok_ZA

    Havok_ZA

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    And these also get the visual coder closer to true programming. So I agree with you here.

    Construct 3

    upload_2020-5-28_22-48-48.png
     
  6. Havok_ZA

    Havok_ZA

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    Yeah look, I wasnt arguing that the way Unity are doing it was a good way, just that there is an obvious need and want for Visual Programing tools (natively or otherwise). I fully agree with your assemsment in how it is delivered.
     
  7. thelebaron

    thelebaron

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    Boy this thread really has its twists, turns and forks, and then a full circle with the visual scripting arguments(pretty sure this ones been beaten to death though hasn't it?).

    Anyone see source 2's hammer's features? Also pretty game changing if we were to get a bit back on topic ;)
     
  8. Ofx360

    Ofx360

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  9. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    @negfinity
    It seems I should be your antithesis to a T:
    - I have been using text programming for 20 years at least
    - I have programmed in basics, python, hlsl, microcontroller assembly, c#, javascript, and read in many more language like lisp, c and c++, etc ....
    - I like to toss myself in problem that are above my skills level, math or otherwise, without training, I put no limit on my self

    I still feel hella limited by text based programming, so much I find the format downright insulting. And if it takes 30s to decipher that blueprint, and you did know and use about blueprint, it only took me half a second, and I have very little experience with it, to see the same thing at you. MOSTLY and precisely because I can see the big picture at a glance before homing on relevant details, I discard information so much more efficiently with node flow it's not even a contest.

    Meanwhile I still have to write down text code on actual paper to make annotation so I can use that as a support, even for my own code. And I try to pack thing in ridiculous one use function to compress the information density, and I have to deal with stupid useless syntax like brackets. I DO have a sort of mental impairment, I have a smaller working memory, so I cannot hold as much data without forgetting some bit, it's only be a real problem with programming, as soon as a code is bigger that one screen, that's a problem, and it's already a pain before that.

    In fact let me tell you about how I first learn to code, I did it on old scientific graphic casio, it was the slowest machine in the school, everyone had fancy hp48 and ti 8x, faster in many magnitude, I couldn't even understand the long ass complex program they were doing in it at the time. I was already making game back then, but by my third, I completely ditch the stupid command line by switching to "matrix" coding (array basically). I wrote a state machine, that you call from a main program, then it read the matrix where there were number, and that number call a sub program by passing data in reserved letters (variable where only one letter long so you were limited to alphabet + theta), these subprogram do computation, change the matrix state, change the cursor that pointed to matrix data or return some values. Now my programming was basically filling tile data, as I had a visualizer that turn number into symbol, it was super efficient because I broke free from linear reading, as it could flow in the matrix in 2d, I broke the variable limit to any number above the alphabetic number, and program run faster, because it also maximize the traversal length, and I could see the shape of the code in an instant, better code was data, and data was code, so I start doing thing people told me would be impossible.
    It taught me to not get marry to the text paradigm by breaking free from it, all in my first year learning programming.
     
  10. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    It also lets you have a go at making potentially catastrophic changes with zero risk, because that "revert" button is right there. Even better if you also get comfortable with branches.

    That's not quite fair, though, since your code and the Editor aren't the only things which can change. Windows Update is one culprit for making changes transparently under your feet.

    Without details of your exact setup we can't tell what specific thing might have lead to that, user error or otherwise. Same deal with the issue where a bunch of performance was lost. Getting VC set up and working nicely the first few times definitely is a pain, and - when it comes to Git in particular - the fragmentation makes Unity's current state look like the Promised Land.

    For the busted material, for me that kind of thing usually happens when I forget to select the relevant file while making commits. One of the pains of working with Unity is that certain files you're not working on tend to get small changes applied to them*. They don't tend to make any difference to the project, but they do clutter workflow for the version control process, which has contributed to my making mistakes like that in the past.

    * It looks to me like these are runtime values getting mistakenly serialised, possibly because they're also used by Editor scripts. Almost certainly avoidable, and something I should look into at some point.
     
  11. AlkisFortuneFish

    AlkisFortuneFish

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    It's also worth noting that Unity's backwards compatibility is a good culprit for that VCS noise too. When you update, Unity can deserialize older prefabs and assets of which the serialization format has changed just fine. It will not reserialize them into the new format unless something dirties them. They have added an API to force reserialization of all assets that you can bind to a menu. For years, our workflow involved a script that marks all assets as dirty and saves, which actually isn't as slow as you'd imagine even on very large projects.
     
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  12. cfree

    cfree

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    WTF! This got waaaaaaayyyy off topic :)
    Bye, until next thread :)
     
  13. JoNax97

    JoNax97

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    Yeah... I think it's time to abandon the ship. Cya!
     
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  14. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    This thread needs to be closed, it hasnt really been talking about the original topic for a while now and is just becoming another "say everything that annoys you" thread.
     
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  15. benoitd_unity

    benoitd_unity

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    Not accurate.

    I stand by what I said, we did not change anything related to style modifications. The fix we released changes one line of code, which allowed the bypassing of the entitlement related to dark theme. The experiments you were doing in this thread should still be working. Ignoring licence entitlements does not qualify as an "enhancement".

    Now whether or not the dark theme should be free is another conversation, and you already know where I stand about it.
     
    Rewaken, Ofx360, Tanner555 and 4 others like this.
  16. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    Product manager for the Editor UI can't give users a dark theme, even after they themselves pushed for it?

    I'd say that's pretty interesting.
     
    Recon03 likes this.
  17. LIVENDA_LABS

    LIVENDA_LABS

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    What the hell is going ON! people are talking about the 'DARK THEME' As it was the the UE5 Nanite equivalent and on top of that begging Unity to Provide this, what planet do you people live at.
     
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  18. benoitd_unity

    benoitd_unity

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    Thanks for the public shaming ;)

    It has been interesting yes, but mostly frustrating, knowing the value it provides to users. As a product manager at Unity, my role is to influence decision makers to prioritize what we believe is most important to users. Maybe I did a bad job, maybe there is other imperatives currently preventing it of happening. In the end, it's not my decision.
     
  19. IllTemperedTunas

    IllTemperedTunas

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    I didn't read that as shaming, it sounded as if he was absolving you of what may appear to an outsider as a recurring poor decision.

    Personally, I'm happy to work in the light theme as a broke as a joke developer, it means others who can afford the prestige of having the dark theme do so. So in some roundabout way, me feeling like a worthless pleb working in light mode is helping the developers of the engine which my project is 110% dependent on.

    We've definitely used this thread to voice concerns and even vent frustrations, but in the end the vast majority of us just want this engine to be a solid platform tomorrow, and a smart investment in the future.

    That said I do find the dark theme to be a little silly, in many ways it highlights the difference between Unity and Unreal on a top level. Unreal makes games that invalidates these bizarre subscription fees for a somewhat frivolous upgrade. But I sure as hell need Unity to make that $$$ in the meantime for my own good as a Unity developer until they develop other revenue streams.

    Edit: Good to see some signs of life from you Unity guys, we vent because we care. It's like they always say, having a throng of people yelling is a good thing, it's when people are apathetic and sad that there's a real problem. Also I'm sure we can all relate to seeing a wall of hate on the internet and misreading it.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
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  20. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    I was empathizing actually, another case of text not conveying expression, if you had read a previous post of mine in this thread, I was pointing out that I think good people are going to waste. We've all been there, with things out of our control, even though it shouldn't be and we have to just sit back and watch.
     
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  21. Benmaster

    Benmaster

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    I think like the fish icon guy, is not a reply against you, at inverse, if you want to give us something and then "them" dont allow you to do... I really appreciate that people working in the company that take care of read comments and reply a bounch of mad people are talking a forum post, this talk really good of you :)
     
  22. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    Exactly what I was trying to convey! :)
     
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  23. benoitd_unity

    benoitd_unity

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    Apologies for taking it the wrong way and thanks for clarifying :)

    And more importantly, thanks for not giving up. Keep shouting, we'll keep fighting.
     
  24. LeonhardP

    LeonhardP

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    Alright everybody, we're closing this thread since it has gone way off-topic. We appreciate the feedback being raised here and are doing our best to take it in. Please feel free to start dedicated threads in the appropriate channels if you have more things to discuss.
     
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