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Unreal Engine 4

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by alt.tszyu, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. bluecat

    bluecat

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    Unity Free has many and important limitations, is hard make a decent quality game with it, Pro is very expensive for most indie developers, this is not new, but now with the new price of Unreal many Unity Free developers will be migrate to Unreal, is only a question of time.
     
  2. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Why do people keep saying this? It makes no sense whatsoever.

    1. Epic has a store too. You're likely to buy stuff there too. Why doesn't that count?

    2. You absolutely do not need to get stuff on the Asset Store. I've released many a professional project with nothing but me, my small team, and Unity.

    3. Buying stuff from the Asset Store doesn't have anything to do with the free/Pro difference. The stuff that's locked out of free is still locked regardless of what you might buy on the Asset Store, so this supposed causal link is a load of fluff.

    The Asset Store is a benefit regardless of license. It's also probably more of a benefit for Unity users than UE users at the moment since the Unity one has been around for longer and has more stuff.

    I see no way anyone can seriously argue that having the ability to save time and money by having the work of others available for their benefit is a disadvantage to anyone. If it seriously is a "disadvantage" to you then there's nobody twisting your arm to use it.
     
  3. Waz

    Waz

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    We each have different priorities in this thread - for some of us the game-changer is UE4's price (total cost being very different for different people). For others it is specific features (like Landscapes with caves or whatever). For others it is the potential for quick bug fixes (either from Epic or self-done) that the release of source-code provides.

    UT needs answers for all of this, not just one piece in isolation. If, for example, they just start madly adding features to Unity5 then quality will drop even further and the bug-fix problem will be worse. If they drop the price in the wrong way they'll make less money and not be able to afford feature development. That triple-whammy of change is pretty daunting.

    I'm certain UT won't just put their heads in the sand and tell themselves there is no problem, because once the hard evidence of the problem (i.e. sales slump) gets in full swing, it will be much harder to turn people around, simply because the one thing they definitely have in their favour, for us in this thread, is our existing familiarity with Unity, and the more time they give us to learn UE4, the less that will matter.
     
  4. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    What makes you say that? Nothing in the screenshot says render textures to me. With smart use of art you can get some pretty stunning results without them.

    I strongly suggest checking out God of War 2 and the two PSP God of War games. They're fantastic examples of excellent quality visuals achieved with smart use of simple tech rather than fancy effects programming.
     
  5. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I've made something similar like Ocean in completely in free. So it would be definitely possible.

    Link
     
  6. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That looks really nice! Well done!

    However, it doesn't show the glowy things and fog and other effects that the OceanHorn screenshot above has, and they're more the things in question here. They can be achieved with effective use of billboards, transparent geometry, and other things like that. Or they can also be achieved with RenderTextures, which is the more common method in high-end titles these days (due to additional flexibility and/or the tools that exist to help out). I suspect that those are the things making people think the game is using RT - which may in fact be the case. But it also may not.
     
  7. Waz

    Waz

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    Obviously the hand-holding is only temporary - the answering noobs - but it's also only necessary temporarily since there aren't yet enough non-Epic experts helping out in the community.

    But that's not what open development is about.

    Check out Linux. Check out Apache. Check out Firefox. Check out Qt (to choose a middleware). Beware a "maths" that basically amounts to "well, if Unity couldn't do it, no-one can", because Epic are not the first to do open development, and they are doing it extremely well. That Unity gave up after launch is their failing, not an inevitability.
     
  8. nipoco

    nipoco

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    You don't get.

    It's not all about fancy graphics. It's also about art direction and gameplay. And the examples I posted are all financial successful games, that could be done in Unity free too.

    I own UE4 subscription and really like it. I also see a lot issues with UT and Unity. Bet let's not get silly here. Eventually it isn't the engine that makes the game, it's the people behind it. And Unity free gives you still enough to make a nice game if you're creative enough.
     
  9. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    "C++ classes can be used as a base for Blueprint classes, and in this way programmers can set up fundamental gameplay classes that are then sub-classed and iterated on by level designers."
    Links:
    https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Programming/Basics/ClassCreation/CodeOnly/index.html
    https://docs.unrealengine.com/lates...cs/ClassCreation/CodeAndBlueprints/index.html
     
  10. SteveJ

    SteveJ

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    That's really about all that needs to be said :)
     
  11. bluecat

    bluecat

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    very nice project, has crazy that old Unity free has not shadows, but this confirm the estigma of Unity, games with basic ligthing and general graphics, cartoon style games, non realistic images, some years ago the quality of graphics in games and engines are advance a lot, i think that Unity 5 with enligthen (possibly enligthen add a cost to the license) and the new shaders can not achieve the quality of Unreal and if this happens is very difficult that Unity can compete with Unreal Price.
     
  12. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    If you relate to my sentiments regarding art style over art tech, unity free also offers a bunch of ways to kookify your graphics, its just a little bit more convenient with pro

    I'm going to take this point however to talk about processing, a lovely streamlined subset of java designed to give feedback extremely quickly on graphical ideas, and here's a great page showing how awesome some of the stuff it can do: http://openprocessing.org/browse/?viewBy=most&filter=favorited

    Much of that is visually more captivating than most anything i see in mainstream gaming, and would love to see such algorithms working towards game ideas. Using it is liberating, or tweaking others' scripts if you dont feel full on creative. The people who wrote those algorithms are incredibly bright people, and processing lets them do that for free, in a really simple instant feedback editor

    I like to think the same things about strong results from Unity Free, where sheer programming verve completely outclasses some shonky approach to getting what Pro has, simply through invention, dedication, research, and gaining all the skills you need to really use any of these engines. That programming verve has infinitely more value than cookie cutter box ticking, it forces imagination and flexibility, not lazy attitudes to filling your game with easily hacked out junk art, or code, or anything else, just to replicate what someone else did

    I think thats all actually a selling point over any other engine to me, i put my mind to this, if you have the discipline, force yourself to make a game start to finish in free, make it an ambitious game.

    After all that you'll 1) realise unity free isnt that bad and 2) know that games programmings smoke and mirrors, and demonstrable wit and cunning to get the results you want despite shortcomings will give you something to be proud about and you can go into the big fellas confident that you can make an engine play your tune

    Yeah even Unity Free is pretty awesome too
     
  13. Aabel

    Aabel

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    It's spending money that's all. All I am doing is comparing the value of what someone gets for spending their money to develop their game.

    There is nothing wrong with assets stores, they are wonderful, not sure why you thought I said they were a disadvantage.
     
  14. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Yes I think it simply done with billboards, since this is a mobile game. But as you say it could be render textures. At least it is possible to achieve a similar effect without render textures, if you're creative enough and willing to think outside the box.
     
  15. nipoco

    nipoco

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    While I agree that Unity might not be the best choice for a realistic looking game, you have to see that even with UE4, you still have to make the assets by yourself. And creating a realistic look like in Watchdogs, the Division, or something similar, takes a lot time and effort and thus is out of question for the most indies without a million dollar budget.
     
  16. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Lets not completely dismiss Unity 4 eh?

     
  17. angrypenguin

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    Either you look at the whole budget, in which case you'd surely be looking at similar 3rd party assets regardless of which engine you choose, or you look only at engine licensing, in which case you don't consider anything else. You were talking about "Unity + asset licensing" vs "Unreal only", which is clearly a useless comparison.

    I didn't think you said that. You're not the only person to have made a similar post, however. ;)
     
  18. Ocid

    Ocid

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    I have friends too and they have jobs as well amazing huh. No they can't pay for this stuff with pocket money. I'll refer you back to the "Have you looked at the job market recently and what some people are getting paid?".

    So you don't have 70 a month for fun stuff. How are you getting that pro license then or is that because you're paying the sub for it which is £60 a month. How did I jump to so many conclusions or are you injecting your own tone into what I wrote?

    How dare you mock FPS Doug. Stop what you're doing and watch the whole series of Pure Pwnage right now? Its a character from a show fyi.

    So because you prefer the artsy fartsy games that somehow makes the stuff you don't like running gaming into the ground. You understand that its the big selling titles that play a sizeable role in allowing indie games to thrive as they are right? If I was to say anything was running gaming into the ground it'd be exploitative boring as S*** mobile titles.

    I have exams coming up? I left school ten years ago. Nice of you to revert to the child arguement though. Shows who is the one jumping to conclusions.
     
  19. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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  20. Ocid

    Ocid

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    Damn broken edit button.

    Notice you didn't address the point about graphics though.
     
  21. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Not only that, render textures are can be really expensive on mobile devices. Mobiles typically have fill-rate bottlenecks, and use of render textures an easily chew up crazy amounts of fill rate (render to the texture, then do some stuff to the texture, then use that texture when drawing something else...).

    As such, not only can you achieve similar results without render textures for many things, where you can do so it's also likely to be a far more efficient method. Despite having a Pro license at work I avoid render textures wherever I can for mobile stuff.
     
  22. HavocX

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    I think this highlights an important problem with Unity free. You can work around many of the limitations with clever design and stuff from the asset store, but that makes it less suitable for the beginners it is supposed to target.

    This has been my own experience. After trying to get some decent dynamic shadows going in Unity free, it is hard not to get impressed with UE4.
     
  23. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    I was being condescending by calling you a child, its a common internet thing people do to inform someone they might be saying silly things, surely you know something like that

    How I get my pro is nothing to do with the money i get per month and thats my own business, however asset store buys can pile up in an overexuberant month.

    Regarding what people are getting paid, i dont know because i dont care because its nothing to do with me. But if people are going to bitch about what is, seriously, an absolutely trivial amount compared to the amount of money your game youre supposed to be making with it will cost, in and of itself, unless you have some pretty fearsome lonewolf skills, is pennies
     
  24. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Gunn and Ocid, give it a rest guys or I'll abuse my moderator powers and teleport you both to MARS where you can discuss the merits of arguing with each other instead of over UE4:

    $gF4NA1j.png

    ps... cheer up guys come on :)
     
  25. Aabel

    Aabel

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    How is it useless? There are a lot of things that come with UE4 that are paid assets for Unity. So no you may not be looking at similar 3rd party assets.
     
  26. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    I dont care if the crappy games help keep indies floating, theyre still S*** brainless games... i do enjoy a bit more out of a game than a frantic man-clicking exercise.

    If you're reducing the idea of an intelligent or meaningful game to 'artsy fartsy', you're insulting your own intelligence and you spookily dont seem to be realising it. What big dumb games arent doing is giving publishers trust in new, possibly daring ip, because dealing with a game that covers any other serious issue than shooting foreigners is a bit 'avant garde', you know, a bit 'artsy fartsy', and we dont want games with unconstrained collaborating artists bringing some much needed invention to the medium (wether you call it a game or not), when we just need more man clicking games, because it is just is ok
     
  27. nipoco

    nipoco

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    You can't really expect that Unity free comes with all bells and whistles. UT's main business is still the license sales.

    What I tried to convey is, that you can get a decent game out of the door with Unity free. That this requires a bit more effort and thinking outside the box, should be self-explanatory.

    I'm really impressed with UE4 too. However there are also certain things you have to find work arounds for (i.e. to get specularity on translucent materials atm) And that is common in game development because not a single engine is perfect.
     
  28. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    It's useless because it's generalised to the point of meaninglessness. Yes, there are some things out of the box for UE4 that cost money in Unity. There are also people who don't care about those things. There are also things that cost money for both. There's also stuff that Unity does better than UE4. There's also stuff on the Unity store that's free. The things that come out of the box for UE4 do cost money, by the way, it's just not an up-front cost, which comes right back to the royalties-vs-perpetual-license thing...

    No comparison based on a subset of facts hand picked to support a specific point of view is something I'd consider "useful", because it doesn't help anyone make an informed decision. And the two ecosystems (we're clearly not talking about just the engines and tools themselves here) are disparate enough that the only person who can make a useful comparison for a particular project is the person running that project.
     
  29. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    There's two sides to that coin though, especially when it comes to mobile development. Learning how to do stuff without the expensive fanciness means they might learn how to do cool stuff with the basics that they'd otherwise skip right over.
     
  30. alt.tszyu

    alt.tszyu

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    Love the art! Just started learning Blender. That interface....my head....hurts.
    How'd you get it to work on dropbox? I tried that once about a year ago, and it would always just download to my pc?
     
  31. Ocid

    Ocid

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    Well its the internet so you can never really tell when someone reverts back to calling someone a child.

    So you get your pro license through other means. Great. What about those that don't and do have to take it out of their "fun" budget?

    Really you don't care about people that get paid utter S*** wages and work more than one job and still can't afford to feed themselves? You know how much poverty is on the rise right? Not so much what this arguement is about but it still relates back to the entry point cost of an engine. It is pennies if your game makes money but that isn't often the case.

    Do you vote Tory? Look beyond your own bubble and consider the situations of other people.

    Yeah I like more out games as well. I wouldn't play/have played the likes of Dwarf Fortress or Eve Online if I didn't. I enjoy good mechanics, gameplay and story. I need more out of a game than holding down W.

    Aye and i agree there can be more out of gaming that what "big dumb brainless" brings to the table but they also help fuel the creation of those indirectly. There wouldn't be anywhere near the number of gamers if you didn't have that.

    My point with me finding Dear Ester utter S*** is that its a perspective a point of view. You enjoy the artsy fartsy stuff I enjoy something with more substance to it. What gives publishers faith in new ideas is when they bring out a new ip and it sells. Money talks thats all.

    Intelligence also has nothing to do with whether or not I find something enjoyable.

    Fair dooz man. Last reply to him on this :D
     
  32. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Ok guys, any more bickering and I'll have to delete thread drift posts. I don't like punishing people as we're all human*, but it's your text time and only a few clicks from me to remove them - please - on topic, not each other :) If you need to get the last word in, use PM.


    * some are. At least 85%
     
  33. nipoco

    nipoco

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    You simply have to put the html-and the unity3d file into the public folder. After it's done with uploading, you can copy the public link of the html file with right mouse click.
     
  34. goat

    goat

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    What happened? Did Scotland vote for independence?

    I'll stick with Unity well because I'm A.D.D to the point now where I haven't worked for 5 years and it's is a bummer. Work was so fun, or rather the people I worked with were. Work, well it was programming and systems administration, la de da.
     
  35. goat

    goat

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    Ah, I bought that asset. It's nice. I still mean to buy the $25 trinkets set though.
     
  36. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Had to delete a post, was turning a bit off :)
     
  37. HavocX

    HavocX

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    Of course. You can make excellent games with beautiful graphics using Unity free.

    But several posters (not you as far as I remember) has claimed that the additional features of Unity Pro is only of use to experienced developers, something I do not agree on. (My post was not targeted at you, just inspired by what you wrote.)
     
  38. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I wouldn't say that they're "only of use" to experienced developers. However I would say that if you're incapable of making a good looking game with what's available in Unity Free then having the Pro features as well won't magically solve that.

    The fact that there's people posting screenies of stuff where we can't even tell whether or not they're using render textures is a pretty good example of this.
     
  39. dbryson

    dbryson

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    I look forward to a response from UT.
     
  40. Digitalfiends

    Digitalfiends

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  41. daisySa

    daisySa

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    Well, Speedtree is already integrated into UE4 - they just haven’t enabled it for subscribers, and they’re workng on doing that right now.

    It appears that they’re just treating UE4 like U5; i.e. Speedtree support will be integrated into the engine so you can buy trees from the store, but if you want to create your own trees you’ll need to buy the software for USD 495.
     
  42. bibbinator

    bibbinator

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    It was a crazy awesome GDC for all of us at Unity this past week and it's taken me several days to read each and every post here in this thread, and I'm sure it's taking my colleagues a while too. Apologies if all of us here at Unity seem to be so silent, but we're all listening I assure you.

    So what is my first comment to this very long thread? I'm blown away and amazed at this awesome community. The depth and breadth of this discussion is fantastic, has been staying on topic, and we're so happy to be a part of the conversation on how we can help game developers and teams of all sizes.

    I can't promise anything more at this point except we're listening and learning, and thankful so many of you are participating; not many companies are as lucky as we are to have fans and critics alike discussing their points of view together so that all benefit. Carry on :)

    Cheers,
    Brett Bibby
    Product Manager
    Unity Technologies
     
  43. dbryson

    dbryson

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    Brett, you guys need to figure out some way to to indicate someone is an employee of Unity when posting on the forums. I'm guessing that you are legit employee, but I can't tell for sure. Anybody can put anything in a post here.

    Cheers,
    Derry Bryson
    CEO and President
    Unity Technologies
     
  44. bibbinator

    bibbinator

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    Hi Derry,
    Point taken. We have a way to tag Unity handles as a Unity employee. Er, guess I should do that...
    Cheers,
    Brett
     
  45. quantumsheep

    quantumsheep

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    Hello! *waves*

    Thanks for stopping by - I'm kinda new around here so have no idea who you are! Fun!

    Just wanted to say that from my perspective I will be making a couple of games with Unity Free with a bunch of assets bought through the store - thank you very much!

    After that, who knows? But one thing to consider:

    I've held back on buying expensive asset store items since GDC for a couple of reasons:

    1. A lot of the stuff I buy is code snippets - if I'm not around much longer then they'll end up a little useless in the long run.
    2. In case you do something crazy with the Unity Pro features, I'm holding off buying stuff that 'emulates' pro features in the free version.

    I know you can't and shouldn't make snap decisions, and quite right too. But right now I have no 'confidence' in the assets on offer as the future seems a little uncertain.

    I hope you understand!

    QS =D
     
  46. bibbinator

    bibbinator

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    @quantumsheep

    Thanks for your input (and everybody else, I read them all!). Doing what's right for you is smart and bodes well for your career as a game developer :) I wish I had your discipline when I was just starting out!
     
  47. hippocoder

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    Looks like this thread is running it's course - would be a shame to begin thinking about locking it! :D I really am impressed how thoughtful most posts have been.
     
  48. Deleted User

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    Not until page 100, calm down super mod MC Thor's hammer.. You'll get plenty of chances to shut down the flames ;).
     
  49. Lyje

    Lyje

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    Thanks for the input! If I might be so bold, I've summarised some of my thoughts in a blog post if anyone at UT would be interested.
     
  50. daisySa

    daisySa

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    This thread is gold for UT. If they commissioned a targeted marketing survey, it wouldn’t get anywhere near as much honest and useful feedback and dialogue as we’re seeing here.

    Keep the thread going, just snuff out the personal attacks as they arise.
     
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