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Unreal Engine 4

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by alt.tszyu, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. Deleted User

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    It's simple, UE4 pounds Unity into the ground in terms of features how it currently is.. It even has more useful tools than has been announced in UT5. I find the workflow laborious and lightmass seems a little unstable, they need speedtree and enlighten in it ideally for the type of game I'm doing. Sure Blueprint is awesome for the coding side of stuff, but there's a million and one other things you have to do in a game dev cycle.. Slate is rubbish, but it's all still a work in progress so even on the UE4 side we'll see how it goes.
     
  2. bitcrusher

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    they had middleware but they had to remove it for purposes of sharing the source, other people have builds with that stuff in it. Unity 5 does seem like they are trying to cater to AAA visuals for sure.
     
  3. Deleted User

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    I have the eval from last year of the full version with middleware, I'm just trying to justify the cost of UE4 whilst having 10 subs to Unity pro. With enlighten UE4 ain't so cheap anymore..
     
  4. tiggus

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    This is one thing I am not not finding and am curious about. Is it simply having to compile C++ and restart the editor or what other parts of the workflow are less efficient? So far I am not buying the workflow in Unity is better when I have so many tools I had to buy as assets builtin to the editor(and better than their Asset Store equivalents).
     
  5. TheDMan

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    Making Blackberry Pro add-on free is a big whoop-de-do. Its a dying company. Just two days ago they announced they are selling off their real estate holdings because they dont have enough money. I personally dont know a single person with a Blackberry anymore, its all iPhone or Android, even the companies I knew who used BB switched to iPhones.

    Same goes for Win Phone, dont know a single person who has one.
     
  6. lmbarns

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    What good are the visuals when performance bottlenecks. I can't even use pro image effects on mobile as the frame rate drops too much when using vuforia or any other cpu intensive plugin.
     
  7. bitcrusher

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    obviously those AAA visuals aren't catering for you/mobile uses. other people make games for desktops/laptops
     
  8. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    They do clarify it, in the EULA. It sounds like you may have just misunderstood, or they gave you an example. Companys purchase licenses, they own the license. If an employee leaves or what ever there is no need to transfer a license as it is in the company's name. It's all pretty simple and the standard way it works. (I can't imagine working at a company who would ask me to purchase my own software).
     
  9. TheDMan

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    Its what I was told, there was no misunderstandings. I brought up the fact that other software packages allowed corporate purchases and have it licensed to the corporation so if individuals left a new person could use that same license on that same machine, they said sorry we dont offer that. So unless they've changed their stance since 2009-2010, fine I understand, but both Unity and I were clear on what we were talking about back then, there was no way it could be confused or misunderstood because I brought up examples of other software vendors and they said nope, we dont do that.
     
  10. lmbarns

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    Well mobile users are paying more than pc/laptop ($4500 for all 3 licenses), unity should give us some attention.

    Otherwise what's the point of buying pro mobile addons if not for better visuals??? I don't need sockets...I don't see any reason to upgrade mobiles to 5.x as it stands.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  11. bitcrusher

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    hope they get the message, i won't be upgrading mobile addons as well.
     
  12. Mistale

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    Same here. I can justify the cost when it comes to my full-time job, since we target both desktop, web and android / ios. And 5.0 certainly has a lot to offer.
    But I won't upgrade my personal Pro + Android Pro to 5.0 unless something is changed regarding the way mobile-only developers are forced to pay twice as much for Pro as those who target desktop only.
     
  13. GCatz

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    It looks like unity's core is the only thing good about the engine,
    everything around it is so bugged and half baked,
    unoptimized navmesh, broken GUI (hope not to be replaced with NGUI; CPU Grinder with update loops for each object), occlusion culling with memory spikes, laughable terrain system, etc..

    fortunately you can work around this problems yourself, but this extra work will cost you time or money.
    UE4 have extremely smart people working behind it that made all the surrounding features work flawlessly from the engine itself.

    Unity 5 Physically based shader looks like 'meh' near UE4 graphics,


    Please shakeup and revamp the engine.
     
  14. sandboxgod

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    Has anyone pulled down the full ue4 full source and tried to iterate on something? You know, maybe a simple little test game base don an example. Change some properties, compile, etc

    I didn't like how during the 'intro to programming' video they said you might have to close the editor if you add new properties or change the constructor. I'll see if I can play with it to see how bad it is

    I know when I evaluated the UDK unrealScript was such a pain Unity blew it away to be honest. You couldn't debug Unrealscript in the UDK and you had to restart the editor to apply changes. It was like giving every programmer out there the middle finger. So no matter what I am sure their new C++ approach will bury that. But curious how the workflow will compare to Unity's rapid prototyping which is almost flawless.
     
  15. Ocid

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    Unity has to make a reaction at least on the subscription front or they will lose people. Cheaper + rolling would be my preference.

    Blackberry is a dying company and Windows Phone doesn't have enough of a market share for it to be an issue for most people.
     
  16. raybarrera

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    There is an enormous difference that I need to point out: Blueprints do not get converted to C++ or interpreted, they compile straight down into bytecode. They are FAST and very well integrated.

     
  17. squared55

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    That's hard to say without comparing the exact same scene in both engines. Besides the material editor, are there any features UE4 has that Unity 5 won't?
     
  18. raybarrera

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    You can create class blueprints and blueprint functions. New blueprints can inherit from other blueprints, even. There is no distinction between a c++ class or a blueprint class.
     
  19. pkid

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    Charging the full $1500 and then $750 upgrade for each platform is just ridiculous..
     
  20. raybarrera

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    I'd say, the only thing Unity was really missing was the reflection probes, which it now has. It also seems like Unity 5 won't ship with Subsurface Scattering, but they mentioned the possibility of adding it later.
    Other than that, Unity 5's renderer looks solid by comparison. We'll just have to wait and see how the performance stacks up.
     
  21. tiggus

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    Yeah just found that out recently, it is pretty nice I did not realize blueprints are essentially exact same as a "real" class including inheritance. I also like how I can start out with a basic c++ class, inherit a BP class from it to tweak the mesh. Makes it easy for me to just leave the c++ code as a stub and if I need complex functions later I can add it to the code class, otherwise I do simple stuff in the BP that inherits from it. It's slick.
     
  22. sandboxgod

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    Unity can probably add on most features via the Asset Store. Like GPU particles that collide with the environment. There's a plugin that does that on Unity via DirectX 11 (TCU Particles or something like that). But you have to pay extra for it. Unity has a Shader node editor on the asset store, but you have to pay for it. Unity has a matinee thing, but you have to pay for it (UniSequence). Unity has a BSP like editor, but you have to pay (Probuilder).

    Most of the stuff I am seeing in the ue4 demos I keep thinking there's an equivalent in Unity.

    Now APEX Cloth looks soooooo sweeeetttt. Unity's Cloth is not very well documented at all. I don't even know if cloth can collide with phantoms on a rig in Unity. Tried to use it once on a Mecanim character and it did not end well
     
  23. Murgilod

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    There's an equivalent, sure, but they almost all require that you go on the asset store to spend money. After a spell, that all adds up. For instance, across it all, I've spent about $400 on the asset store for code utilities alone.

    Apparently cloth physics are getting an update as 5.0 is getting a new PhysX version.
     
  24. sandboxgod

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    Good post. Now what I am going to say might seem a little anal or critical of Unity but I mean it with great respect of their team

    I really would like to see more demos of Unity 5 done with AAA quality Art. I think Epic Games and Crytek have a huge edge because they are making leading edge games with their tech. So they have an army of Artists to make things look crazy awesome.

    With Unity I am not sure if it can't just match it or their Art team is just not up to par.

    Crap, the way I just said that sounds very anal doesn't it? Surely Unity 5 demo vids could be better done. Hell, I am walking around in a UE4 particle fx playground and I think it looks awesome. The Unity examples lack this sort of attention to detail
     
  25. hippocoder

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    I think it's probably time for unity to be a bit more transparent with it's users in all fairness. I believe this will help mitigate some of the alarm felt by users. Gentle assurances you won't hold the staff to ransom if they say something will help. Previously, unity used to be VERY transparent, but key trolls used unity's every word against them, and still do. This harms us all.

    Encouraging developer relations through open dialogue is best. Not holding them to ransom because people don't understand development can and will change.
     
  26. raybarrera

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    Agreed. Ever since the 3.4+ roadmap, they've become incredibly skiddish about road maps. Granted, the GUI situation was a fiasco, and the heat they took on that was justified, but I believe they hit every other point on those roadmaps. UE4 going public changes everything, and change/uncertainty can be difficult for teams to navigate. Unity should be helping illuminate the way and address the issue head-on. I use Unity for my job, but in my personal project, I've been using UE4 since last year, and the old UDK comparisons are just completely moot. Unity has to move fast to assure its developers.


     
  27. Meltdown

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    Not necessarily true, if you are making small code tweaks, you can re-compile your code in the editor. If you need to update property drawers and project references yes then you will need a full recompile in VS.
     
  28. tiggus

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    Yeah that is true but how often do you add new functions or update definitions, for me it is pretty often. Even the recompile option in editor for changes that qualify is extremely slow for me, compared to Unity's hot reloading of C# classes.
     
  29. TheDMan

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    Absolutely Unity's every word should be used against them if they do not deliver what they promised and advertised!! And what harms us all is not what you said, but it is broken promises.

    So in your mind its okay for Unity to take money from people on a unfulfilled promise(s) and not give it back to the people if the people deem Unity's end was not held up?

    In any other industry it would be deemed fraudulent, and fall under criminal investigations.

    Whenever money is exchanged based on "word" or "implied product/material" or "promises" or "as advertised" by the body collecting the money, failure to deliver on the aforementioned is a serious offense.

    So if you think people are "trolls" for standing up for themselves and not kissing ass to a company like blinded fanboys and allow them to continue take advantage of them like a bunch of fools, then you need to open your eyes a little wider. That, or it makes me think you have a form of payola from Unity in some shape or form.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  30. Aabel

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    It's just a very short video, who is using Unity 5 in production? What games are being made right now? What games and real world problems are shaping the feature set and implementation of Unity 5's rendering? We know that Unreal 4 is being in used in production and being shaped by the experiences of people using it in real world scenarios. Who knows whats going on with Unity 5.
     
  31. raybarrera

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    Except Unity has not done this, with the exception of the GUI, which for all intents and purposes was almost ready to go, only to be scrapped in favor of a better system late into development.

    The problem is that people have reading comprehension problems. "Subject to change" falls on deaf ears, and worst of all, people take their own personal wishlist and somehow convince themselves that at some point Unity promised x,y or z features.

    Edit: For your reference, http://blogs.unity3d.com/2011/06/16/unity-roadmap-2011/

    From the post:
    [emphasis in the original]

     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  32. raybarrera

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    I went to the Unity dev day at GDC and got hand-on time on the show floor. The shader technology is not new or innovative by any means, it's based on the same math that everyone bases their shaders on. Unity is simply integrating it into their pipeline. If you've used lightprobes, then you know how to use reflection probes. The math is the math no matter who implements it, it will do the same thing. The question, as I pointed out, is who is implementing it most efficiently. Based on the demo I saw running on an Android Tablet, I'd say Unity's implementation is very efficient. The problem is they don't have an in house AAA studio to provide them with the razzle-dazzle to show it off, so you're left to interpret the quality based on the few shots they've shown.

     
  33. Deleted User

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    I can take the first option, because Epic developed UE4 for Android / IOS / PC / MAC / Console and there's even the workings of Linux in the source.
     
  34. nipoco

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    I wrote earlier that I had encountered a bug where the OSX version of UE4 immediately closes after launch because of some peripherals (in my case the Wacom tablet). The only way around that was to temporarily disconnect my tablet, while UE4 launched. And also my fans were running at max, even with doing nothing.

    Now here is the thing:
    It took Epic only two days to release a patch for that issue and now my MBP runs smoothly without that annoying bug.

    With Unity, I waited sometimes months, or even years for a bug fix. In some cases I had been waiting until recently (skinned cloth anyone?) Not to mention that I have to download and install the whole Unity engine again, while Epic just releases a lightweight patch.
     
  35. Deleted User

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    Exactly the point I'm making, I reported a bug with the editor through usual channels.. NOT through UDN and Epic fixed it within a couple of days.

    Screw the cost of Unity or Unreal, that's an Epic plus in UE4's favor. Just a shame I'm not a fan of the engine's workflow for the moment..
     
  36. pkid

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    Cinematics, AI, source code access, visual scripting......
     
  37. Murgilod

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    OH MY GOD.

    I was switching to my Windows PC just to experiment with UE4 and that's what the problem was?
     
  38. tatoforever

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    Blueprints are C++ code and the way you create classes/components in UE4 can be extended to be a blueprint node (with the addition of some macros and uproperties). So yes they are really fast.
     
  39. squared55

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    Thanks for the answers guys. Now what does Unity 5 have that UE4 doesn't? Actually having an in-game GUI system for starters, but what else (if anything)?

    Basically trying to compare the two, without looking at the cost.
     
  40. nipoco

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    Yes, and this is another big plus for Epic. I found that solution immediately after looking into their answerhub. Provided by an epic dev, hours after someone reported it.

    There is even more. Like the mesh editing features for the primitive meshes. You even got realtime booleans. And you can edit your meshes in realtime via blueprint. Look at this to see what I mean. I used Playmaker quite a lot and I like the nice people behind it. But Playmaker is really not as advanced as Blueprint. I can't say much about Uscript, or Antares. But at least I get BP out of the box and it shares a unified workflow, because it comes all from one dev team.

    While I think that Enlighten for Unity5 is a good thing. I'm quite skeptical about the final implementation. The past showed us how UT implements third party tools. Beast, Umbra, Mecanim. All of those tools were partly unusable and broken. And it took UT years to polish them enough. Really, I don't pay a pricey upgrade for half arsed stuff, which UT tries to sell as snake oil.
    Epic on the other hand is at least honest with their current UE4 version. They clearly state that it is still in Beta with a fair share of issues.

    People drool over Enlighten, but forget that Unity still has a dated terrain editor, among other dated stuff. And while UE4 has not the sophisticated realtime GI out of the box (yet), it has something that I also consider crucial for current gen graphics. Something that Unity5 doesn't has. And that is proper particle rendering, with correct lit particles, emissive particles, particle shadows, etc.
    At the meantime you still can active light propagation volumes in UE4, that work like Cryengine's GI.

    As for UE4's workflow. Yes this is quite daunting if you start. But I kick myself in the butt and step out my comfort zone, if I get the better engine for my type of games in the long run.
     
  41. tiggus

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    Add to that bsp tools, larger terrain and holes in terrain(caves), behavior tree editor
     
  42. Deleted User

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    Off the top of my head without peaking at google (Well not much anyway)..

    UE4 extras based on what you get with the UI:

    > VFX system with advanced particles.
    > Matinee cinematic system
    > Blueprint

    Unity 5

    > Enlighten radiosity based realtime and baked GI, which works well with mobiles
    > Audio mixer

    Where they meet in the middle:

    > If the rumors are true, they both have material editors ;)
    > Both have PBR pipelines
    > There is a visual scripting software for both, but I've never tried Unity's version
    > Not sure why the other guy said AI, Unity has navmesh.
     
  43. tatoforever

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    Either of them have AI, they both only have a navigation system (which in UE4 is better btw).
     
  44. Deleted User

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    I know Tato, what's your point?

    You think a Unity user doesn't know if it has AI or not? It must be that I like hanging around the forum because of the pretty white background.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2014
  45. tatoforever

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    I tough you were implying UE4 has an AI system which is not true. :rolleyes:
     
  46. Deleted User

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    Umm nope :p.. :rolleyes:
     
  47. Meltdown

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    42% of the time.

    But yes I do agree, that is one big workflow snail that UE4 adds into the mix, hopefully it's something they can streamline in the future.
     
  48. Cogent

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    So UE4 won't be used for an over the air mobile game anytime soon. :(
    Thanks for the data.

    Unity is nice. Nice workflow, tools, asset store, community and more. As many here have noted Unity perhaps needs to work on their pricing and upgrade fees.

    Still, even with longer compiles, royalties, a new learning curve, "rough" Android, system requirements, larger exports etc. I still can't resist giving UE4 a test run.

    It has nothing to do with shinies, hype, language loyalties, noobness, koolaid, herd mentality or anything other than it seems like a decent tool that's worth a try.

    Off to Tigerdirect for a new box just to test UE4. It's as good an excuse as any. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  49. tiggus

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  50. pkid

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    From the UE4 feature web page under "Artificial Intelligence"

    Give AI-controlled characters increased spatial awareness of the world around them and enable them to make smarter movements with Unreal Engine 4’s gameplay framework and artificial intelligence system. Dynamic navigation mesh updates in real time as you move objects for optimal pathing at all times.

    So they refer to an "artificial intelligence system"
     
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