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Unreal Engine 4 FREE...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BrUnO-XaVIeR, Mar 2, 2015.

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  1. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    Works fine for me...

    It's not the bow, it's the Indian
     
  2. Daydreamer66

    Daydreamer66

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    You don't pay a thing except on income over $3000 per quarter, per product. This means that in your example above, making precisely $3000 per quarter, you would owe $0 to Epic.

    In a more realistic scenario, let's say your game makes $4500 in one quarter, then $1000 in the next, and so on. You would only owe the 5% royalty on $1500 ($4500 - $3000) for that first quarter (a whopping $75), and nothing after that, unless of course your game had another big surge in sales.

    Likewise, if you have multiple games, each earning under $3000 per quarter, then you would still owe Epic nothing, even if their combined totals surpassed $3000.

    EDIT

    R. Lindsay beat me to it. :)
     
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  3. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Good for you
     
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  4. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    This is awesome news! I foresee the UE forums being flooded with "guyz all I want to make is a lil game like Skyrim. Plz tell me how! Also I already have lotz of idears and am looking for coderz and pictures peeps to join my team! Thanks!"
     
  5. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I can understand Unreal crashing, but if your entire system is crashing there are likely bigger problems.
     
  6. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    Just make it simple..

    Basically if your game makes 12k for the year, you owe 20%.

    Then you may owe steam

    Then you may owe paypal

    Then you owe master card/discover/ or even worse, American Express ( if you have that option on your website)

    Then you owe taxes
    U.S : Depends on your tax bracket and if you claim self employment. You could be paying up to 40% of your TOTAL income (Tax bracket + self employment tax). IRS wants that 40% every quarter if you plan to owe over 1k at the end of the year. If you don't, you get fined an d end up owing more
    Then you may owe employee taxes
    U.S: If they are on a standard w-2, you pay half of their taxes, social security and medi
    Then you owe your CPA

    It's fun working for your self huh?

     
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  7. WilliamBNewton

    WilliamBNewton

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    Actually if your game makes 12k for the year, with it split evenly across 4 quarters, you owe nothing to Unreal.

    And even if you did, it'd be 5%.
     
  8. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    From memory the break-even point between the two engines was around $100k per developer per year, based on buying Unity licenses for 3 platforms. Dropping the $19 a month barely changes it.

    Also worth considering is that Unity has partnerships with a bunch of vendors allowing a single Pro desktop license to target several other platforms at no additional (licensing) cost. So while desktop + iOS + Android costs $4500 per developer in Unity licensing, desktop + PS4 + Vita (for instance) costs only $1500 per developer in Unity licensing.

    Of course, engine licensing is only a small part of the through life cost of a game development project, so getting overly hung up on that isn't productive.
     
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  9. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Actually my computer was freezing. I managed to get it back after forcing UE4 to close in the task manager.
    I don't know if there is a bigger problem. All I can say is, that I had never any issues with other programs. That was the first time encountering that.
    Another strange thing is that I got a warning about low RAM, suggesting me to get at least 8GB. The thing is, I have 8GB.
    Well, Unreal Engine is not known for it's stability. Especially on Macs (which I use).
    I like some stuff that UE4 offers, like Blueprints, material editor, better particles etc.
    But personally it's too risky to work with that. Every time they release an update, something is broken, or doesn't work anymore. There are users who complain that their whole projects got corrupted after upgrading. I don't find that very encouraging.
     
  10. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    I thought It read its 5% for each quarter? That would compound into 20. I am checking the site now
     
  11. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    And judging by Epic's Take-No-Prisoner strategy... this is what happen:

     
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  12. blueLED

    blueLED

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    Oh I see, so it would have to be $7,500 per quarter then, to be charged $75/m.

    It's funny because that's how much I make with my day job, I hope my game makes more than that xD

    I think my point still stands though, yeah?
     
  13. Deleted User

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    Actually I agree, I'm not sure what to make of it TBH. I thought at bare minimum that $20.00 a month was going towards paying staff to make sure it wasn't so buggy and secondly to keep the floodgates from spewing information not worth reading.

    I suppose if you have the team and knowledge to fix as you go then it's not the end of the world, developing 3D you get a lot of tools / post and gorgeous lighting for next to nothing and Unity still isn't anywhere near in the same playing field, I've not touched Unity since 5.0 Beta 11.

    Although very interested in their announcement.
     
  14. blueLED

    blueLED

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    I see, thanks for the clarification.

    So would I be correct in saying, If you consistently make $7,500 per quarter forever, you are paying out the same per month as for a Unity Pro licence?

    Also, by the same token, that means I could make, say 20 somewhat crappy games with UE4, each making $3,000 per quarter even, and I would be a millionaire in 4 years, and not owe anything to Epic? xD
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  15. WilliamBNewton

    WilliamBNewton

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    On the money made that quarter.

    So if you make $100 each quarter, it's $5 per quarter, so out of $400 for the year, you'd owe $20 total, or 5%. Of course ignoring that this doesn't start until $3000 made in a quarter.
     
  16. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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  17. orb

    orb

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    It's not a cumulative percentage. That would be crazy! It resets every quarter, so it's 5% off the amount above $3000 for that quarter.
     
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  18. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    I knew it. Hippo is secretly recording all those replying and saying negative thing about Unity.
    Then he is going to ban all of them l! You people watch out!


    I AM KIDDIN' !!

    Oh please gawd oh please please pretty please don't ban me I swear Unity is the bestest I will say no more....
     
  19. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    That's still a combined total of 20% at the end of the year. Be it, 4500 for one quater... or 3001.

    I wonder, if it's 5% of the 3001 or 5% of the 1 dollar xD
     
  20. WilliamBNewton

    WilliamBNewton

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    No, it's not. 400 x .20 != 20
     
  21. orb

    orb

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    This is the Valve method for bans - lull them into a feeling of false security, then banhammer the lot of them :)
     
  22. Deleted User

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    Be honest, only way they'll improve :).. I'm seriously underwhelmed with Unity 5.0 in all respects, I was just searching the forums to see what this big GDC reveal is. Hopefully John's took a leaf out of Frostbite's book and decided to go full haul..
     
  23. R-Lindsay

    R-Lindsay

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    So by your logic that would be 100% owed to Epic after 5 years
     
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  24. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    Oh my gawd. I think you are on to something.
    This could be the thing to turn the tide for Unity.
     
  25. inrain

    inrain

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    Fairly comparing the two:

    Unity: $4500, regardless of sales, not including prices of major version upgrades.

    Epic: Your individual game would have to make on average $102,000 in a year to pay a royalty of $4500.

    The numbers are obviously more dramatic if you have a team and need multiple Unity licenses x $4500 x Team License ($500).
     
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  26. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    lol
     
  27. JuniezV2

    JuniezV2

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    no, it's five percent no matter what. here's an easy example:

    for $5000 per quarter or $20,000 per year
    by quarter: (($5000-$3000)*(0.05))*4 = $400 at the end of the year
    by year: ($20,000-(3000*4))*0.05 = $400 at the end of the year

    this. lol
     
  28. R-Lindsay

    R-Lindsay

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    Ok here is my take on 'the math' of when the cost of Unreal = the Cost of Unity Pro + iOS + Android.

    To simplify I am using Unity's subscription model, so it's all p/a.

    Unity is $75 per month x3 (for iOS and Andriod) x12 months = $2,700 p/a per developer.

    Unreal
    Assuming regular income from game which makes over 3k per quarter, means we have a annual royalty free threshold of 4x3000 = $12,000.
    Unreal = Unity
    (x - 12000) * 0.05 = 2700
    x = 66,000 p/a profit break even point for a single developer.

    If you have 2 developers
    (x - 12000) * 0.05 = 2,700x2
    x = 120,000 profit for parity

    If you have 3 developers
    (x - 12000) * 0.05 = 2,700x3
    x = 174,000 profit for parity

    * No Guarantee is offered on the quality of my math
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  29. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    That makes sense. I am terrible with math, hence why I pay a cpa.

    And I only put lol to that person... cause the whole "by your logic" is only reserved for people in hell, going to hell and/or condescending turd sandwiches.
     
  30. zezba9000

    zezba9000

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    No its not. Multiplication does not become addition just because the multiplication happens 4 times.

    Say they took 25% as an example:
    1 = (1 * .25f) + (1 * .25f) + (1 * .25f) + (1 * .25f)
    1 = (4 * .25f)

    As you can see if I multiplied how much I make in 1 year by 25% its the same as if I multiplied each yearly quarter then added the result.
     
  31. R-Lindsay

    R-Lindsay

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    Ha! It was literally by your logic though :) If there is a non condescending/hell inducing way to type that, then insert that version in place of mine :)
     
  32. AlanGreyjoy

    AlanGreyjoy

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    Yea... I explained this to my wife and if I was wrong... Verdict? "I am retarded"
     
  33. JuniezV2

    JuniezV2

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    RE: UE4 Royalty concerns

    • What if my project requires custom licensing terms?
      If you require terms that reduce or eliminate the 5% royalty in exchange for an upfront fee, or if you need custom legal terms or dedicated Epic support to help your team reduce risk or achieve specific goals, we’re here to help. See the custom licensing page for details.
     
  34. zezba9000

    zezba9000

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    LOL, it happens to us all i'm sure. Unless you just have a really good mind for it.
     
  35. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    The deal seems good if your game wasnt a hit - ie low end sales. But once you start get mid or high end that could be a big problem because its on "Gross" not Net.

    The final figure for our income after exactly one year of sales is $489,404 USD (from a total of $668,490 in revenue). So the dustforce guys would have had to pay 33,424.5 to unreal (if they used it)? So I guess eventually you might get a big hit and end up paying the piper then

    But then a unity dev like mika mobile who sells millions of units would only have to pay the 1500. Its kind of funny where if your successful your better off with unity, and if your not successful better off with unreal.

    http://gamasutra.com/blogs/TerenceLee/20130417/190637/Dustforce_sales_figures.php

     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  36. blueLED

    blueLED

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    I guess that's when you'd want to negotiate a custom license or pay an upfront price instead of the 5%.
     
  37. Daydreamer66

    Daydreamer66

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    Haha yep, if you could make THAT happen, you only have to worry about the tax man.

    More to the point, if Epic's toolset (blueprint, cascade, behavior trees, etc)/open source/large game and team support/ fast bug fixes/etc. helps to facilitate faster development (money saved) and a more marketable end product (more earned), it's probably worth more than the 5% after that first $3000.

    On the other hand, if you're more productive with Unity, then you're also more likely to complete that project or projects, and it's still UT all the way.
     
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  38. kebrus

    kebrus

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    There are parts of this thread that are very sad. It feels like people come here to validate their own opinion.

    I thought choice was a good thing but apparently if someone choice is different from yours they must be out of their minds or something and he MUST be teach to think otherwise.
     
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  39. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Very true. Also, there is a lot more to the cost of a development platform than just the software itself. Tech pipeline, current investment, training, staffing, ramp up time, etc. Not to mention adding potential risks associated with lack of familiarity. Though this is less of an issue now because really most engines are significantly different from their predecessors.

    But let's be fair, any company that is struggling to pay their developers at that point is pretty much screwed, and the price of a single piece of software is the least of their problems. Moreover, if they are sensible and cost conscience, they won't be trading that cost away to much more down the road. Figure a legit company hiring game developers is going to spend in the ballpark of 100k per year per developer. That would be salary, insurance, additional hr related costs, salary for non-developer support staff, other software and hardware, physical expenses (rent furniture, electricity, servers, etc), hiring costs and general overhead. For argument, lets say they are mobile, so 4.5k for unity. Barely breaking even they will need to make about 100k per dev. Doing that with UE means they are going to pay 5k per dev per year. If they are successful, well beyond that. And that is per year. Unity typically is about 2years for a major version with discounted upgrade. This is not even figuring in cost for marketing.

    That upfront cost is virtually nothing. Even if they are a brand new company, it will a while to launch a product and for it to generate revenue. So they will have to have the capital to pay for staff and expenses for probably a year. The cost of Unity is probably less than the cleaning staff alone.

    For indies and small teams, sure it might be attractive and practical. But for a businesses, even small ones, the cost of Unity is nearly insignificant in the broader picture and practically a steal compared to virtually any other alternative (including in house). Also this is only referring to price as major factor. As you accurately pointed out, best tool for the job, if one or the other simply doesn't deliver what you need, that may well override price, either direction.
     
  40. Frpmta

    Frpmta

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    Heh.
    Look at all these Unity and Unreal peasants while I use CryEngine :D
     
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  41. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    As of late last year, that license fee was pretty steep, and only practical if your revenue was safely in the millions. Way, way beyond the price of Unity for a similar project. It's basically a way to put a cap on royalty bleed, but doesn't come cheap.
     
  42. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It may very well be Unreal, but I would recommend verifying with a stress test app.
     
  43. orb

    orb

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    Yeah, test it with Unigine's Heaven demo. It's made for stress-testing, and should confirm whether it's a particular engine or a more general problem. If it turns out to be just the engine, it's possible the engine does something unexpected that reveals a flaw in the graphics driver.
     
  44. Alabatross

    Alabatross

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    This move makes Epic look very confident in their product. If you don't make a game to finish and sell it, they don't get paid, Simple as.

    Unity's model forces developers/hobbyists to take their own risks (which many are already doing in other ways). You need to pay before you're able to develop long enough to feel the power of pro.


    Whether money or an issue is not, this can say a lot about your product.
     
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  45. Daydreamer66

    Daydreamer66

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    I think the latest UE4 iteration, 4.7, could well be to blame. It included some fairly major changes, like the addition of components, so the bug fixing (especially in regard to critical ones) has been occurring at an unusually high rate (even for those guys). 4.7.1 was already released prior to the weekend, and we'll probably see 4.7.2 within the next few days. It might be worth it to try the latest version before doing a barrage of stress tests.
     
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  46. shaderop

    shaderop

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    How dare you rain common sense on this victory parade! How dare you!
     
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  47. Myhijim

    Myhijim

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    But seriously.... gtfo
     
  48. zezba9000

    zezba9000

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    This is how I see it currently after downloading and using the UE4 for just a little bit.

    Unity pros:
    1)
    Unity supports more platforms. Particularly for mobile. UE4 hasn't even touched WP8 yet or BlackBerry among others.
    2) Mobile platforms are your biggest target as an Indie dev and Unity has the most support for them.
    3) Fast Editor that can run on a wide range of low end hardware like Mac Mini's for development.

    UE4 Pros:
    1)
    Pro features are Risk Free, Open Source and expandable. If there is a bug I can fix it rather then wait weeks or months.
    2) Unreal has better graphic ability. This is nice for PC / Console games and you don't have to pay for them.
    3) No risk. There is no risk other then time in using UE4 if you need Pro features and your game fails (this is a HUGE Pro).

    Unity Cons:
    1)
    Huge risk if you need Pro features as games can fail all the time.
    2) Source code is not available which means you can't fix a critical bug when you need it fixed and you know how to.
    3) Really expensive for Indie or hobby devs. Pro features are not delegated right.

    UE4 Cons:
    1)
    Doesn't support as many platforms. Not even Xbox 360, PS3 or WiiU. Even Crytek supports these.
    2) Editor needs a high end computer to use. Mac Mini's aren't going to cut it and as a Indie dev buying overpriced Mac hardware is not fun.

    I'm sure there are other points i'm missing.
    Personally I think if anything Unity should include iOS and Android Pro in the main Pro subscription license. They should also make the subscribing price cheaper unless you make over a particular amount (Unity is to high risk when most only need one or two pro features). Best case scenario would be to just strait up copy the UE4 pricing model because in the long run even if it takes two years UE4 will probably support all the platforms Unity does. Once UE4 gets rolling bugs are going to get killed much faster with open code. Either way Unity needs to evolve in some way with the new environment UE4 has created just as Unreal did when Unity made a free model.
     
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  49. eridani

    eridani

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    Wow you basically made a profit
     
  50. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I tried that and it work fine even at full resolution and with Ultra settings. I don't get 60 frames but it runs smooth and stable. Like all the other 3d apps and games on my mac.
    But I'm not so surprised about UE4. It has stability issues for a lot people, which is shame. I hope they can tackle that in the future.

    I also noticed that they made the engine not just free, they also give you $30 balance for your marketplace account. Not sure if someone mentioned that already here. Definitely a bold move. Especially with the Epic dev grants combined. UT has the pressure on their side now.
     
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