Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

Unity to charge significantly more and possibly royalties for games with "gambling"?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PrimeDerektive, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,090
    http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/Unity+news/news.asp?c=46932

    Not that I have any interest in making a gambling game, but thought it was interesting and hadn't seen it on here yet, so figured I'd share.

    The definition of gambling can be rather vague, when taken as "1) wagering of money; 2) in a game of chance (an event with an uncertain outcome); and 3) to win additional money or material goods." I've played a few iOS games (and even console games, like the Mass Effect 3 multiplayer component) where you can buy a surprise package as an IAP where you don't know what the prize will be, which at face value satisfies all those conditions to a tee. Do they count?
     
  2. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    A "surprise package" from IAP is not gambling. First, you're not wagering money; you're buying something. Perhaps its an uncertain outcome, but most likely only to you. I'm sure the developers know exactly what you're getting. And IAP is not money or material goods. Its digital goods within the game.
     
  3. wccrawford

    wccrawford

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Posts:
    2,039
    I expect this has a lot to do with the law, and so the definition of 'gambling' will likely follow along.

    I'm pretty sure that contests with prizes are treated completely separately from poker and slots, when it comes to the law. So I'm really not worried about this.

    Edit: For the record, I have personally called ME3's surprise packages "Gambling", but I don't mean it in the legal sense.
     
  4. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    Right, its nothing to worry about. If you manage to "accidentally" make a gambling game, Unity's fees will be the least of your worries. There are a ton of laws around these kinds of things.
     
  5. Tanel

    Tanel

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Posts:
    508
    If your application involves people paying money, but having the chance of not getting anything in return then it'd be time to look deeper into this I guess.
     
  6. superpig

    superpig

    Drink more water! Unity Technologies

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Posts:
    4,649
    So, most F2P games, then?
     
  7. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Posts:
    4,835
    I dont see why unity thinks it can get away charging 6 figures for a gambling game... seems abit risky.
     
  8. Tanel

    Tanel

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Posts:
    508
    Well no, you know what you pay for. A new awesome digital shield or the color black for your uniform, whatever.
     
  9. hasullivan

    hasullivan

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Posts:
    74
    Good article link. This is not something I noticed. I guess in the end if they are expanding development into that arena and want it to have a price structure that blocks out indies then we just have to use backup tech if we wish to make a gambling title.
     
  10. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    If you're an indie, its best you steer clear of gambling games anyway. There is FAR too many legal issues involved there, and a minor "bug" in your game could end up costing you thousands, if not millions. That's not even getting into the issue of the licensing required to make a gambling game (depending, of course, on where you live).
     
  11. Photon-Blasting-Service

    Photon-Blasting-Service

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2009
    Posts:
    423
    Reading the full article this only affects pure gambling game sites.

    Interesting that they are planning to support gambling games more in the future. The only site I can think of with 3D elements is PKR poker. Most sites have simple 2d interfaces. Lots more to it than graphics of course. I could see a new site with more pizazz appealing to casual micro stakes players.

    Saying six figures is too much is meaningless without knowing exactly what they are getting.
     
  12. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    There was one game (I wanna say Dark Orbit, but don't quote me on that), that would have monthly tournaments. It was a F2P space shooter with IAP, but if you managed to win the monthly tournament, you could win thousands of dollars.

    Now, I still don't think they were classified as a "gambling game", but you can see how any type of game, really, could turn into gambling. It doesn't have to be limited to simple card games.
     
  13. Arowx

    Arowx

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    8,194
    Isn't that a competition, something you take part in to win a prize.

    Whereas gambling would be betting on who wins.
     
  14. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    Perhaps, but its a fine line. I pay money for better gear, "betting" that I'll emerge as the winner. I think the only reason it was not considered gambling was because it was not a "game of chance", and relied almost entirely on the players' skill.
     
  15. blurededge

    blurededge

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Posts:
    255
    That same argument has been made about poker here in CA recently. The courts are still considering it as far as I know.
     
  16. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,090
    That's just silly. You are randomly dealt cards from a shuffled deck. No amount of skill can magically give you better cards.
     
  17. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    Perhaps, but why then, do the same 3 or 4 people win the World Poker Championships every year? There is obviously a lot of luck involved in any game that has a random element, but a random element doesn't necessarily make it a game of chance.
     
  18. Darkjayson

    Darkjayson

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Posts:
    233
    The unity team is treading on thin ice with this as part of there user license. Simply put Unity the company could be held liable for any illegal gambling that games that use there engine does in a country that bans gambling like the USA because there is now a link between the illegal gambling and unity because of the gambling specific license that this enforces.

    If the license says once you buy the engine you can do what ever you want with it without any oversight to the Unity team they would be covered but because there is now a link between gambling and the unity team that link can be used against them. Unity would now have to make sure they don't sell any gambling game licenses to a company that then brakes the law with what they make or else unity can be guilty by proxy as they are specifically linked to the gambling profit by making a profit from a license to make a gambling product.

    I like unity i hope nothing comes of this but with the way some countries especially the USA reacts to illegal gambling I'm not sure and am worried :(
     
  19. Filto

    Filto

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Posts:
    713
    I thought the whole businessidea with Unity was "Buy the software and do whatever you want with it". Maybe Adobe should charge extra everytime you paint a dice or a playing card with photoshop. I see UT slowly going from the rebels towards the dark side kinda lika Apple did :)
     
  20. khanstruct

    khanstruct

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Posts:
    2,869
    There's no danger to Unity at all. They are not responsible for what people create with their product. Those people, on the other hand, are responsible for what they create, and they have a responsibility to Unity (to not break the law with the product, not pirate their product, to abide by the ToS, etc.)

    All this does is, if they they discover that you are using Unity to create a gambling game, they can charge you the additional fees.
     
  21. npsf3000

    npsf3000

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2010
    Posts:
    3,830
    Hmm... interesting move from Unity. Time to take a look at their competitors.
     
  22. Darkjayson

    Darkjayson

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Posts:
    233
    Sadly this might not be true, they are not responsible if they have no connection and just sell a 3D game engine without any connection to what people make with it but if they do make a connection such as a separate license dedicated to what people do with it such as a gambling license then that's the connection that makes them responsible.

    Because unity is profiting from any gambling done with there engine even if its just a one off payment, if the gambling is done in a country in which it is banned even without unitys authority to use the engine there they might be held responsible because of that connection.

    It is a worrying development.
     
  23. Arowx

    Arowx

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    8,194
    So make sure your keep a 3.5 version for your 3D gambling apps!
     
  24. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Posts:
    5,577
    Gambling is bad anyway, so.... you know make a fun game and stop being a douche scamming people and this will not be a problem.

    Congratz to Unity for making it not feasable now!

    (I'm not likeing the other limits though :()
     
  25. Darkjayson

    Darkjayson

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Posts:
    233
    There are three worries with this development

    One: Unity gets in trouble from a company who makes a gambling game has a gambling game license from unity and uses it in a country that has banned gambling and when they get shut down unity gets shut down as well by proxy because they licensed the engine to be used for gambling see the mega case for a company that got shutdown because of what there customers did even though they banned it in there terms and conditions and any support for the 3D engine we all use will be gone, this is the least likely outcome but still there.

    Two: Unity starts braking up there licenses first with gambling games then the next could be max simultaneous users go over 10,000 or 100,000 users you need a new license or use it for adult games i.e. anything that would be rated 18+ and you need a new license and so on. This is more likely but unconfirmed as we do not know why they made a separate license for gambling games if it was for control then this scenario is unlikely if it was for profit then it is more likely.

    Three: The last worry is not license specific but about a potential change in the practices that unity makes. Unlike all the other 3D engines with unity when you buy the license that's it no royalties no conditions the engine is yours to do with what you want to but with this change whats next? A royalty system? A game acceptance application system? There are lots of practices that a lot of other engines use that made a lot of us pick unity over them but what happens if unity changes to become more like them?

    Worrying it could all be nothing but its something to keep an eye on. Till then we still got 3.5.
     
  26. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Posts:
    1,687
    I do applaud UT's attitude, gambling is evil. One of main things that makes society in many cases disrespect the entire industry.
    In my country gambling games became prohibited few years ago and this law is one of best things my gov have ever done around here.
    Some addicteds still look for illegal gambling houses, but the issue is not as big as before...
    For me is just sad UT wants to earn more from gambling companies instead of totally saying no to this kind of S***ty game.
     
  27. Dan Fury

    Dan Fury

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Posts:
    158
    You should read the complete article, Unity isn't against gambling, they heavily invested in it:

     
  28. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Posts:
    5,577
    Oh, damn that sucks.
     
  29. npsf3000

    npsf3000

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2010
    Posts:
    3,830
    Yes, because Unity with their 6 figure license costs and dedicated 'gambling staff' will completely forget to ask their legal side on whether each project is legal and how to protect themselves.
     
  30. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Posts:
    1,687
    I did read it all now... I must say, I don't like UT supporting gambling field.
    If this goes too big and UT gets involved too much with this kind of thing I think I would begin to think about supporting another engine provider even if said engine's workflow is not that great as Unity's...
     
  31. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    And the same thing probably applies to UT as a middleware vendor. There's more risk in them supplying the same tools for gambling purposes as for other things, so they restrict it out of the standard license and provide another more suitable license in its stead - which would reasonably enough have a higher price to cover the increased risk.

    I can see Unity being pretty inviting to the online gambling industry, by the way. Unlike most other popular middlewares, they can write game clients that can be deployed to web browsers via either dedicated plugin or Flash, standalone PC or Mac, iOS and Android all at once. There is competition in the space, but Unity does have a very strong position.
     
  32. Darkjayson

    Darkjayson

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2012
    Posts:
    233
    Legal advice didn't help other companies when governments decided they broke the law in there countries even if they thought and where advised that everything was perfectly legal and remember this is the first time there using this new extra license so who knows what will happen. Like is said its the least likely outcome but it is still there.

    What is worrying is that this looks to be a change in the way unity writes there licenses and that's more worrying what else will be next to change?
     
  33. npsf3000

    npsf3000

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2010
    Posts:
    3,830
    What companies? What countries? When?

    The only case you've mentioned was mega - and they were shady from the start, and are accused of actively promoting piracy - not just happening to have some occur on their systems.
     
  34. tatoforever

    tatoforever

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Posts:
    4,364
    This is not looking good. Anyway, If something bad happens in the future, i still have lots of engine choices out-there. Nothing to fear about it.
     
  35. Khyrid

    Khyrid

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Posts:
    1,790
    Gambling is essentially a scam. It lets you win a little but makes it more likely you lose. If you gamble once, you might win but will probably lose, the more you gamble the more likely you lose until it becomes a virtual certainty. People who gamble regularly are virtually certain to lose everything. Also because education does a crap job explaining probability to people, the average Joe is very susceptible to be scammed by it. So any form of gambling should be strongly controlled as it is a fact it can and has destroyed many lives.
     
  36. jasonkaler

    jasonkaler

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    242
    +1
     
  37. jasonkaler

    jasonkaler

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    242
    I'm feeling conflicted about all this, but it's probably an internal conflict.
    My first thought is: If unity supports gambling, then this just means they want a slice of the profits.
    How can they now decide that an open engine will cost more because of how you choose to use it.

    But then , after some thought, I see it is all fair.
    They charge less if you are an indie - giving startups and hobbyists a chance
    If they have a student discount - then why not a gambling fee?

    Sometimes I forget that Unity3D is a corporation and not an indie.
     
  38. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    Unity needs to clarify if a game of skill is considered gambling or not.

    Legally, poker recently became defined as a game of skill, so would this be considered gambling or not?
     
  39. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Posts:
    9,042
    While there is little information to go on at this point, I believe there is nothing to be concerned over at all.

    I have some experience dealing with the ins an outs of gambling and how it relates to gaming and online gaming. (though my at my current company, gambling isn't even a consideration). My guess would be that as Unity has grown, situations have come up where Unity is being considered or used in regulated gaming devices. Things like slot machines and video poker games. All of which are highly regulated and audited by stage gaming commissions or their equivalent. Software in those cases must me certain standards, and are regularly audited. "Random" number generators, odds tables, etc... Again, just guessing here, but I think the additional licensing costs are to offset or account for the hoops UT will have to jump through to make sure they meet these standards. It is even probably a separate version of Unity or at least some core libraries. There is a lot of red tape for certification for those types of devices. It seems very plausible that may be the case, Unity would be great for those types of things, much of that software is proprietary and awkward to work with. And it makes sense that would have separate licence, because of the work and time involved and they already have separate platform licences.
     
  40. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Posts:
    9,042
    Unity can't clarify that. The actual definitions are state (and some federal) law. They are probably only deal with to the extent their software is involved, not legal definitions of specific games.

    Not to be all pedantic, but actually the Texas Holdem varient of poker was ruled (not defined) as a game of chance by a federal judge. (meaning another judge could rule the opposite). And all it really means is that in future cases on the state level, judges can use that case a precedent.

    However, these are all second tier disscussions/concerns for folks like us (game developers). These details are completely moot if at the first tier your game doesn't doesn't accept real world currency AND allow for the rewards from that game to be exchanged back into its real world currency.

    ---

    To give an applicable example, take your game. If you were it introduce a mechanic like poker or scratchers, or a slot machine that people could, with real world currency, purchase tokens to play in these games and win truck parts or maps or something alone these lines, you would have no worries.

    In fact you could even have the games rigged so that no one ever wins the big prizes. Or if you wanted to be real jerk, you could have a random event where short after they purchased the tokens, a notification comes up saying something like "... on the way to the track, you were mugged and lost half of your tokens...". While certainly this would not be a great device to grow your userbase, it wouldn't be illegal, and you couldn't be sued.

    This complaint of comes up often in social games, as most have some sort of in-game gambling using the player's premium currency (purchased with real money). It can be very frustrating to explain to player, because no amount of explanation can change their feeling of being ripped off. And conceptually it can be a bit confusing. Especially since those types of games often use real world metaphors for their virtual currency like "gold", "bucks" and "cash".
     
  41. Sun-Dog

    Sun-Dog

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Posts:
    144
    I wouldn't be too concerned about this. I would assume that Unity Technologies as a stable company has competent legal advice and guidance, so aren't going to get shut down over someone using their software to make a gambling app. Frankly, if I were commissioned to make a gambling app, the first place I'd try to make it is in Unity, not that I would have noticed the fine print in the EULA as I never read them.

    What this seems to me is simply rising to the demands and practices of a particular market. When you look at large sports franchises, you can see that the players ask for lots of money - because there is a lot of money being made in that industry and a lot of money to be made in that industry. And this rolls down to everyone in the supply chain, from the people who supply the shoes and hot-dogs to the balls and uniforms. When the Bellagio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellagio_(hotel_and_casino)) was built for 1.6 Billion, this wasn't because casinos don't make any money. I would presume, not knowing anything about that industry at all, that Unity is simply rising to standard of other suppliers in that chain and getting paid appropriately for the services they supply.

    No one, and certainly not Unity, is going to ask you for 100 grand to make your game, even if it does have randomised IAP's.

    If charging a betting shop 100k to create a slot machine keeps Unity free for indies and allows Unity to grow and add devs - great! In one sense I don't like the idea that ultimately it's some poor Joe's money, but that's Joe's decision and by the time it reaches Unity, it's some fat betting shop's money, and that bothers me far less.
     
  42. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Posts:
    5,577
    Imagine if you just had to pay over $100,000 to use Random.Range... crazy!
     
  43. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    The source code for random generator numbers on online casino systems gets audited on a regular basis.. They would not be using Random.Range :D
     
  44. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    Yes, but if you only host/develop software for a specific country or state, where it is considered a game of skill, does this mean your license is good because you're not involved with 'gambling' of any sort..
     
  45. jasonkaler

    jasonkaler

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    242
    Correct. But if you sell your app to a different country where it is considered gambling, you will have to pay royalties on that.

    Or I could be totally wrong. You would need to contact unity to clarify.
     
  46. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2011
    Posts:
    2,574
    :D
    +1
     
  47. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Posts:
    1,687
    If UT get too much involved in gambling field, a judge may very well decide to prohibit Unity, all of its versions, in my country. Than I'd be f*cked by my Unity licenses.
     
  48. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Posts:
    9,042
    Correct.
     
  49. Filto

    Filto

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Posts:
    713
    I think you are grossly underestemating peoples intelligence. casinoplayers knows the odds are against them. Gambling addiction is bad and sure has destroyed many lives but it has nothing to do with them not understanding odds. Most play for the entertainment of it, the chance of getting rich however small it is adds to the excitment of it all of course.
     
  50. keithsoulasa

    keithsoulasa

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2012
    Posts:
    2,126
    The problem with internet gambling is that their is no deck to check , the game will pay out when its programmed to pay out . Like I could code a gambling program to recognize a few users , all who off the books work for me( or ARE me) , and then cheat everyone else out of their money . The actual ban(US) is based on a very old law forbidding phone gambling , the idea is that a gambler can be tricked if he can't check the deck .