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Feedback Unity shamelessly promoting gambling.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by transat, Jun 1, 2020.

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  1. transat

    transat

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    Unity... empowering people to lose their money?
    If people want to make gambling apps, good for them. But Unity promoting that as a "solution"? What exactly is it a solution to? Tight-knit families?

    Screen Shot 2020-06-01 at 4.10.53 pm.png

    Are you really that desperate for cash that you need to spend the time and effort promoting gambling?
    I would find it less offensive if you had "Porn" there instead.
     
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  2. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    They're not saying gambling is a solution for anything. They're saying Unity is a solution for making gambling apps.
     
  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    For the record, simply playing games too much can kill people in rare circumstances. That's without gambling.

    As kdgalla said, unity isn't promoting gambling, but promoting the engine as solution for making gambling apps. This can actually be an important point, because at some point in time, for example, Epic Games forbade use of Unreal for gambling and operation of nuclear facilities. They later removed this restriction.
     
  4. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Which is relevant for two reasons. One, as neginfinity pointed out, is that some software specifically excludes this use. Another is that in many places gambling requires a bunch of legislative and regulatory compliance stuff that typical off-the-shelf software might not support.
     
  5. transat

    transat

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    "unity isn't promoting toxic masculinity as a solution for anything, but promoting the engine as solution for enabling toxic masculinity"
    Ah. Nice distinction. All good then. :rolleyes:
     
  6. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Uh, what? This doesn't make any sense.
     
  7. transat

    transat

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    "They're saying Unity is a solution for making gambling apps"... is exactly what I have a problem with. I'm not sure how rephrasing my issue makes it any less of an issue. But look, I get that people such as yourself don't have a problem with that. Good for you. I live in Australia, the country with the highest proportion of gamblers in the world.
     
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  8. kdgalla

    kdgalla

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    How you phrase it is important. If you phrase it sloppily, then people won't know what your issue actually is.

    Right now I'm confused. I didn't suppose that you were against gambling, per se, because you said "If people want to make gambling apps, good for them."
     
  9. neginfinity

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    That's not rephrasing.
    "Promoting gambling as solution" ==> "Gambling will solve your problems!". Which would be problematic in more than one way.
    "Promoting unity as solution to needs of gambling business" ==> "You can use unity to create a gambling game". This is factual.
    Not quite the same thing.

    Your original post, by the way, takes page which says that "unity has been used for making this, that, that, gambling and educational apps", and somehow you turn that into "unity promotes gambling as solution", which is not what the page says at all.

    And as you said, I "don't get it".
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  10. transat

    transat

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    whatevs.png

    For me @neginfinity... "Promoting unity as solution to gambling" ==> "You can use unity to discourage gambling" is factual. But I don't want to argue about social ills with users of this forum, I just wanted to convey my thoughts to Unity staff, in case the company cares about its image.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  11. Lurking-Ninja

    Lurking-Ninja

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    There is this joke in my mother tongue, I will try to translate it just for fun:
    The Fox and the Wolf meets in the woods.
    "Hey, let's beat up the Rabbit!" says the Fox.
    "Okay, but why?" asks the Wolf.
    "If he wears a hat, that's why, if he doesn't, then that's why." answers the Fox.
    And they go to the Rabbit and they beat him up with adequate vigor.
    "Hey, let's beat up the Rabbit!" repeats it the Fox on the next day.
    "But we already beat him up yesterday." says the Wolf.
    "But we should beat him up today as well!" comes the answer from the Fox.
    "Okay, but why he should get it today?"
    "Let's go there and let's ask for cigarettes, if he gives us filtered, that's why, if he gives us unfiltered, then that's why" says the Fox.
    They goes to the Rabbit again.
    "Hey, Rabbit, give us cigarettes!"
    "Do you want filtered or unfiltered ones?" asks the Rabbit.
    "Damn it again! He doesn't have a hat!" shouts the Fox.
     
  12. neginfinity

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    Congratulations on finding a typo I made due to not having enough sleep.
    ----

    Here's what the page actually looks like...
    upload_2020-6-1_12-20-32.png
    And:
    upload_2020-6-1_12-20-53.png

    ------

    Also I think unity had a feedback email. Maybe try that. Otherwise you might need to tag UnityMaru or someone else.
     
  13. transat

    transat

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    Yeah, maybe go to sleep? I hadn't noticed your typo, my point was the word "discourage". But I repeat, this isn't about semantics. @UnityMaru Unreal don't feature the "gambling" solution nor do they even make any mention of the word gambling on their website. Their license actually prohibited making gambling apps up until very recently. And they were ethically-minded enough to not blog about the change.
     
  14. UnityMaru

    UnityMaru

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    I mean, the first reply kinda hit the nail on the head.
     
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  15. transat

    transat

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    So the "missing the sarcasm and arguing about semantics instead" reply, huh?
     
  16. OneDragutin

    OneDragutin

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    Haha, I would rather say that this is just a cyclic dependency.
     
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  17. JoNax97

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    What are you trying to achieve here? Unity is a tool and will promote itself for whatever it is useful.

    You know what else is used for gambling machines? Microprocessors. Evil silicon manufacturers are corrupting the world /s
     
  18. sxa

    sxa

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    Your entire premise was based on misrepresenting the semantics:

    "Are you really that desperate for cash that you need to spend the time and effort promoting gambling?"
     
  19. OneDragutin

    OneDragutin

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    I may be wrong, but since when is gambling useful. Or even worse, since when is earning from poor addicted fellow good for anyone, in this case reputation of the Unity company.
    Title says it all, and I must say I agree with it.
     
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  20. UnityMaru

    UnityMaru

    Community Engagement Manager Unity Technologies

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    I have recorded your feedback and brought this to the teams attention as I am not in any way disputing the validity of it as it's suggesting the thoughts you have. I am just stating that 'solution' here is regarding making applications of this nature, not in anyway to encourage the form of gambling to users.

    If communicating this can be improve in someway, I welcome anyone to provide their insight on this so I can raise this internally.
     
  21. JoNax97

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    I didn't say gambling is useful. I said unity is useful for the gambling industry. And my point about microprocessors was to illustrate that tools are just tools. Go yell at the people running casinos.
     
  22. OneDragutin

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    I think you are missing the point here. I'll try to explain one more time, without yelling :)

    Tools are just tools unless you start advertising them in the wrong light.

    Funny fact:
    Gambling is just small subset of games in general and yet Unity explicitly needs to advertise that part. Not cool.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  23. JoNax97

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    The gambling industry has very specific regulations and requirements. That's one of the reasons they explicitly advertise it; to make known they comply with them. Another one is that gambling makes money and unity is a company that is driven by making money. If you don't agree with the moral compass of Unity and don't want to support it, you can always stop using the product.
     
  24. transat

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    @JoNax97 Your microprocessor argument would make sense if Intel chose to advertise "gambling" on their website as one of the many wonderful things you could do with microprocessors. But you know what? They don't do that.

    I'm not asking for Unity to stop people from making gambling apps. I'm just suggesting that actually putting that word on their website is tantamount to promoting it. It smacks of desperation. I don't think that's good comms or marketing. No doubt it's done for financial reasons. But in that case, as I said, why not put 'Porn' up there as well? And then maybe Unity could also write a blog post on what Unity's VR capabilities can bring to the pornography industry? Just my 2 cents. And yes, you're correct to say that i can put those 2 cents elsewhere. I've already hinted at that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  25. transat

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    Thanks for the clarification, which is in itself an improvement in communication on your first post. I had found it quite disappointing from someone whose role is meant to be Community Engagement Manager.
     
  26. Mauri

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    Come on... You know that pornography in itself is a whole other level. Gambling is widely accepted, while porn is still considered as dirty in most countries.
     
  27. sxa

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    But Intel do 'advertise' military applications as one of many wonderful things you could do with their microprocessors. So by your logic, they're 'promoting war'.
     
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  28. Martin_H

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    I don't know why, but I just thought of this statement by the Unity CEO from back when he was the CEO of EA:

     
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  29. UnityMaru

    UnityMaru

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    My apologies - yeah, it was a rather unhelpful response on my behalf.
     
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  30. transat

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    Which of the two do you think is illegal in Australia... Online pornography or onlin_ gambling? Also, please note that there are over 2 billion muslims on this planet for whom gambling is strictly forbidden. So no, gambling is not widely accepted.

    @Martin_H Good find. And shocking. But not surprising. He's not exactly a paragon of ethical behaviour.

    @sxa From your two contributions to this thread you seem to be a bit challenged in the logic department. Having made that blunt assessment, if you can find me an Intel website that has the word "War" as an advertised "solution" then I will apologise profusely.

    @AskCarol @UnityMaru Can you explain to me why the words "onlin_ gambling" (fill in the blank) are not allowed to be posted on this forum? Does Unity have an issue with gambling? ;)
     
  31. UnityMaru

    UnityMaru

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    That's our spam filter as it catches a lot of spam per day with these sets of words in one post.
     
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  32. transat

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    Are you implying gambling is a shady industry responsible for copious amounts of spam? ;)
    I note your filter doesn't catch the words "online pornography" - some double standards there?
     
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  33. sxa

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    That's kind of ironic, given that the very subject of this thread you started is a failure of logic, and your entire argument is predicated on conflating product use in a specific industry with promoting a specific activity by that industry's end-users.

    You know, this bit : "Are you really that desperate for cash that you need to spend the time and effort promoting gambling?

    I mean, logically, I believe I can easily prove that 'solutions for the gambling industry' is not 'solutions for making people gamble', but feel free to provide some actual logic in contradiction. If you dont wish to, that'll be profuse apology enough, though.

    So, Intel arent promoting any of the specific activities that the end-users of the Military industry would undertake?

    Interesting. And pretty much my point in the first place, cheers.

    So, can you find a single quote on this website where UT promote gambling as an activity, like you keep claiming?
     
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  34. JoNax97

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    This is utterly pointless. OP's initial premise is flawed ( as pointed before) and any attempts to highlight that flaw are met with fallacious comparisons, silly points(come on, you know the spam filter argument holds no weight) and personal attacks. I think we'd be better without this thread.
     
  35. transat

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    Say what? Kind of like you could say Unity wouldn't be promoting "pornography" if they had "Pornography" up there as an advertised solution? I guess my logic is failing me.

    Still not quite sure that I (or yourself) understand your point.

    Go for it.

    Intel know that it would be bad PR for them to use the word "War" - your example - on their website. That you can use microprocessors in a variety of military device is not the point.

    I note that you're adding in "as an activity"... words I didn't use to try to make your point seem less nonsensical. So I'll take it out and answer this question: "can you find a single quote on this website where UT promote gambling". Sure @sxa Here you go:

    Screen Shot 2020-06-01 at 6.47.58 pm.png


    And here: https://unity.com/solutions/gambling
     
  36. Martin_H

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    If you stretch the definition of gambling a bit to "making an investment of some kind in hope of making a much bigger possible return with a high chance of failure and some factors for the likelyhood of your success being out of your control", then gamedev kind of is gambling, right? And gamedev has ruined many people financially for sure. It's probably addictive too, and lots of devs are in denial about how financially unviable and unlikely their success is. If you want to apply the least charitable interpretation possible, then Unity is knowingly contributing to lure in more and more people into high risk gamedev-gambles in over-saturated markets (in big parts over-saturated because Unity lowered the barriers to entry so far - I mean "democratized" gamedev).

    @transat: thanks for that last link. I got a chuckle out of their marketing texts. In the context of what I just wrote, this is too perfect:


    upload_2020-6-1_17-17-57.png



    What odds exactle are we talking about here? The infinitesimally small odds of any indie getting rich from gamedev?
     
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  37. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    How dense can a person be.
     
  38. transat

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    @Martin_H A Want more laughs? here's a cut and paste of bits from the promotional document you can download from that page

    One can happily sit transfixed by bright, spinning 2D slot reels, or stack chips, throw dice, and enthusiastically cheer in craps. Bricks and mortar works: 2017 marked the first year U.S. gambling revenues topped $40B. Yet a land-based experience usually requires planes, buses and automobiles, and the time it takes to get to the casino. While a trip to a real casino requires planning, players can enjoy an online experience almost anywhere at anytime. That’s one reason the global onlin_ gambling market may surpass $94B in 2024.
    The basic functionality of the one-armed bandit remains tried and true – insert money, watch something entertaining, and occasionally get some money back. Today, players experience movies, phone apps, virtual reality (VR) and augmented reality (AR), and videos produced with stunning graphics and effects. They expect the same graphic fidelity when they walk into a casino or download a gambling app or PC game – especially if they’re going to potentially spend big money.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  39. sxa

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    No, kind of like you would say Unity wouldnt be encouraging people to view pornography just because they had "Pornography" up there as an advertised solution.

    Whether or not you choose to accept it, there's a difference between promoting a tool to a specific industry and promoting what that industry provide to its end-customers.

    Yup.

    Yes I know its not the point, because 'the point' I was making was a different point. That you're conflating the provision of a tool to an industry with the provision of an end-product by that industry.

    No, that's just you continuing to conflate two different things. You specifically introduced the notion that Unity were promoting the activity of gambling by end-users ("Unity... empowering people to lose their money?") not just so its on you to justify the claim of that pertaining to it as an activity.
    You didnt use the phrase 'gambling as an activity' but its still a valid description of the words you did use.

    But since you're struggling with that, please explain how Unity empowers people to lose their money. And remember, you didnt say 'Unity provides a tool which gambling companies could use to empower people to lose their money', so that's not what Im asking. What Unity does that 'empowers' a given individual to lose their money.
     
  40. sxa

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    well, if you stretch it enough, everything Unity does empowers someone to lose money.
     
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  41. transat

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    @sxa You do realise that the expression "empowering people to lose their money" is ironic
    As for the answers you seek... read the post above yours.

    Finally something we can all agree on!* :)

    Goodnight everyone. It's been fun.

    *Except for free games that promote mental health. You should try one @sxa, once you've finished lobbying the german government to fully legalise onlin_ gambling in your country.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  42. sxa

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    yes. and its irrelevant that its ironic.

    what, the one that doesnt give me the answer to what I asked?
     
  43. JoNax97

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    Could you stop attacking other users?
     
  44. neginfinity

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    If you're having a bad day, take a walk in a forest.
    If you're under quarantine, walk on a balcony would do.
    Trying to be snarky/sarcastic won't work.

    Technically the menu in question is awkwardly worded.
    "Solutions, Games", "Solutions EdTeach", "Solutions, Gambling".
    It should be something like "Our Solutions FOR Games". Obviously, most people won't even notice that and only one in million would complain...
     
  45. neginfinity

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    The only one who used this expression: "empowering people to lose their money" is you.
    It is not on the site and it is not mentioned in the thread by anyone else.

    So, in essence, you're getting angry at unity because of something you said yourself despite it not being on their site.

    That brings us to my earlier advice for a walk in the forest. Getting some sleep would work too.
     
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