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Unity Plus Target Audience?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SprinkledSpooks, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Yooka laylee is on unity, meanwhile one neogaf:
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1228853

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205798695&postcount=12

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205798799&postcount=21
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205798923&postcount=29
    There is more sprinkle in the entirety of the thread
     
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  2. BornGodsGame

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    I have my Unity set up to switch to a bright lilac when I am in play mode because I am so tired of losing changes. It is literally the most god-aweful color in the world.
     
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  3. Ostwind

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    But that is part of the whole problem. In that video the guy at least tried to make an actual game but just did not use time to edit the video. People who make those joke/garbage games rarely bother to edit so it happens pretty often and people associate Unity with garbage/ poor quality. It's happened so often that seeing the splash almost always triggers someone, like in the link people start complaining something like using assets. I've probably seen splash in the queue over a hundred of times past year or two. If the splash ain't in the videos there are downloadable demos in some games which will show the splash anyways and make someone comment.
     
  4. Tanel

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    Come on, Unity shouldn't have a splash because it might affect people who won't bother editing it out from their trailers negatively? For all you know the dev wanted to show it.

    And I don't really think after going through the trouble of downloading the game people would just close it after seeing the splash. When there's negative reviews after that the issues are most likely somewhere else.

    Also, if your game's heavily using unmodified asset store stuff of course people are going to call you out on it. Regardless of having the Unity splash or not.

    Btw, I'm not saying splash in Plus is okay but these are not really the reasons Unity should reconsider for.
     
  5. Ostwind

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    Too many seem to think this only from developer side and/or I can't express myself enough so there is no point for me to continue :)

    For my last summary, it was not only about that one quick example but what has happened in general for over a year from gamer perspective. I'm not trying to change UT mind on the splash screen but giving some real world reasons to others why so many here or everywhere hate the splash screen seen from my experience as a gamer and long time Steam user.

    I have never released to desktop and never planned to and don't care about Greenlight from personal developer perspective. I also pretty much always had pro version so the splash has never been a problem.
     
  6. hippocoder

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    Of the entire thread as far as I can see, with 50 posts per page and 12 pages, that's 3 people hating and 597 people liking it.

    Pretty much a massive advertisement for it being made in unity being perfectly ok. This game doesn't use unity splash. Gamers will find out regardless.

    I'm tired of people dragging down an engine I chose to use, that YOU all chose to use. It is your responsibility to push back. People will always know it's made in Unity, a swift look at the source files tells you this - if you care. The same people moaning about splash care enough to look so they can sound smart to their friends.

    Why I don't want splash: Delays my game from loading and I think it is unattractive.
    Why I WILL credit Unity: because credit where credit is due. I have 900 staff backing me up. I want to say thanks for the effort.
     
  7. Dabeh

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    Personally, I can see some value in it with the priority cloud builds and analytics. I would have seen even more value in it if it removed the "Personal Edition", but they decided to take that out for everyone.

    If the builds were concurrent, it would be a no-thinker for me. I'm on the move a lot, in a new country every couple months and I don't have the time to take out of my schedule every day to make builds for different targets and then upload the results on potentially unreliable/slow connections.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
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  8. salgado18

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    One of these days I defended Unity for building standard mobile apps against a small office of IT people. There's too much discrimination against game engines in the professional field, and we, who know better (we do, right?), should stand for it. If we don't who will?

    Edit: But then again, there's barely any negative view from customers, they will judge your product not where it was made (professionals do that), they will judge it for what it gives them. Gamers are used to seeing many splash screens before a game, and it tells nothing of what they will play.

    BUT I still think the splash should be gone if not in Free, at least in Plus. The splash is a marketing and branding tool, not a paywall people! And if it is a paywall, I PAID, so remove it!
     
  9. darkhog

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    I think it could be fixed by:
    1. Making it skippable by pressing ESC
    2. Making it look better (though, honestly it already looks better compared to 4.x and previous).
     
  10. Teila

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    Absolutely! I started reading it and couldn't figure out what the poster was trying to say to us. Looks to me like a handful of people moaned about it being Unity while they rest looked at the game! And they liked what they saw.

    Pretty much goes with what I and others have said here. It is the game, the engine. Will there always be some who are biased against Unity? Yes, of course. They can't get past the fact that Unity made it. But...there are always people with biases, whether it is skin color (as in people), brand name, genre of a book, etc.

    The others in the thread looked at the game and the graphics. They could care less that it was Unity. They would judge the game based on what is like when they play it.
     
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  11. GarBenjamin

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    @Teila you are absolutely right. It may be only 1 out of 150, 200 or even 500 or more people that have a bias against games made in Unity. That it is a tiny percentage of people was never in question. I think people just show examples because so many other people here keep saying "nobody cares it was made in Unity" and "nobody cares about the splash screen" "they only care about the game".

    Like they just couldn't comprehend that people can be pretty weird. There are fan boys (and girls) who support their engine and are less likely to buy games made in competing engines. There are people who have a bad impression of Unity games because they played quarter finished n00b junk released on mobile, etc. I think folks are just trying to say / show that it is true. There are people out there like this.
     
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  12. hippocoder

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    Well there is zero bias toward Unreal engine games. This will not change, but as more rubbish titles come from other engines, gamers will understand that it's not really the engine's fault if the game is bad, only a side effect of anyone being able to make a game, and the Unity hate (however minor it is) will end.

    It's like music or film or books - amateurs will often produce dross.
     
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  13. Teila

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    Yeah, but there are people who won't play your game for ANY reason. Maybe they hate Indie games? You cannot design and build a game expecting everyone to like it or buy it, or even give it a chance. This is true no matter what engine built it.

    Sometimes, you have to let that tiny percentage go. Focus on the rest, the ones who will at least look at your game.

    Unreal has zero bias only because it has a lot of major releases. There are gamers who will only buy AAA games and UE has a history of producing AAA games. So it makes it easier for some one to believe, and maybe rightfully so, that an UE game made by an Indie has a better chance of meeting the AAA or close to it, requirements.

    I am sure Unity has some great games too, but are there AAA companies who use Unity for more than prototyping? Maybe that will change in the future too. I actually think the bias against Indie games is less than it used to be, regardless of the dump of junk games on places like Steam.
     
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  14. Deleted User

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    I don't agree with an engine never being "bad" there's plenty of examples out there, although it's generally the developers fault for using it to release a commerical product in the first place.

    Look if I put a half cocked update in a binary release with tons of bugs and "hacky" features. Is that your fault as a developer? Or is it my fault as the engine developer?

    The sort of "games" in a very loose sense of the word we're talking about doesn't justify the reputation Unity gets (even if it is a vocal minority). You can tell that no real sort of effort has been put into them, if it isn't up to the standard of other simple(ish) games that communities love then it is of course the dev's fault.

    Although some that obviously have the skill / budget / manpower and time that dropped the engine like a hot rock shows that in some scenario's the "reputation" is very much justified. Although again, one could argue they should of used something else.
     
  15. GarBenjamin

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    :) Absolutely agree.

    I think @hippocoder nailed it when he said "a side effect of anyone being able to make a game". So many people come to Unity and create their very first game ever often not even a game and just basically a test of moving objects around or using the Unity examples and releasing them as their own game.

    Unfortunately, the very first mobile games I ever tried were in Unity by beginners. One was a ball rolling around.... period. That is all it actually did. The other was a 3D model of a jet that you could rotate. lol Those were actually out on the store and I checked them out because comments were saying "garbage" and "Unity" and I wondered what they were talking about. These were things that never should have been released on an actual real marketplace to begin with.

    As far as AAA and non-AAA I don't think that is a problem at all. If people want AAA games they should be buying the AAA games. Pretty simple. I mean I am sure you are right there are folks who will never buy an Indie game because they want something that is like a AAA game at least visually. They just are not the market for most Indie game devs. Heck my own stuff if ever released for sale would be retroish and likely 2D low res pixel art.

    On the other hand there are folks like me who will probably never buy an Indie game that seems like a AAA game. We're out here too. When I see an Indie game that seems like it is striving to be a AAA game I don't know it just kind of puts me off. I feel like those devs have "lost their way" or something.

    Bottom line is you are right. There will always be many reasons why people do not like a game. Absolutely.
     
  16. neoshaman

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    I posted the sample of quote in relation to the on going discussion. Not to prove unity was bad or to drag it up, the context was the discussion.

    Though I'm still concern about unity's performance for my own games. There is a umber of things, for frame perfect 3D action, game I did on blitz3D I wasn't able to replicate on unity. And blitz3D is a slower less sophisticate engine. I'm still not blaming unity because I might not be knowledgeable enough to make them on unity. Though it was straightforward in BLITZ3D. My main grips with unity is the collision engine, it's expensive and unreliable.

    Another question, and it's genuine not rhetorical, what are the notable games who emerged as homegrew on unity? By that I mean game like to the moon (rpg maker), undertales (game maker), was there any surprise from unity and unreal indie initiative?
     
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  17. Teila

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    It could be that a lot of the "oh, it is Unity" is because many know that Unity allows beginners to make something, no matter how bad, and get it to market. It may not mean they will not even look at a Unity game that is well done. It may be that we are misinterpreting what they mean when they see a bad game and recall Unity.
     
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  18. Teila

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    Absolutely! They have been listed in several threads here. I don't recall the names..someone else can probably supply them for you. My kids like "Among the Sleep" and say it is very well done. They are teens. PAMELA is another. Firewatch looks very nice and quite innovative in design, one of those games AAA companies would never touch.

    Try clicking on Made with Unity on the top of the page.
     
  19. neoshaman

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    I'm not saying "good games" I meant "cultural sensation". :p

    Undertale wasn't just good, it's spawn meme, "to the moon" was discussed from "hell and back" and changed how people review "story massive" game, and single handily change the perception of RPG maker games. Five night at freddy was made with multimedia fusion. That kind of games.

    Edit: also game that have emerged without previous existing credential (example: Yooka laylee, the fame come from credential).
     
  20. GarBenjamin

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    @neoshaman I also used other things years ago including Blitz Basic, C# & XNA and C & Allegro. There is definitely a difference and takes some getting used to if you liked the way those other languages / APIs worked (and I did).

    Unity is highly flexible and you can use it the same way you used Blitz and other things. That is what I am doing. I started out trying to use the Unity way. Very much on my first project. Over time I moved more and more away from the kind of stuff you see in all of the uber simple examples around the net toward a more procedural architecture.

    For collisions I just use casts and overlap checks. No collision events. I think if you try that approach you'll find it much more straightforward and under your control.
     
  21. neoshaman

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    Yeah I moved away from that type of game.

    The game I wanted to make was a mixed clone of mario 64 (control), mario galaxy (level) and classic sonic in 3D (think tony hawk psx). I try casting but it has odd behavior, kinetic don't register collision and neutralizing rigidboy turn the pc into a slideshow (because I try to iterate to find multiple contact points). I also have problem with input latency, etc ...

    But it's always in the back of my mind :(
     
  22. Teila

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    I am sure such a game can be made using Unity. :) That is the imagination and initiative of the developers, not the engine. Games like Journey are amazingly mind blowing.

    Also, cultural sensation is probably a bit subjective, wouldn't you say? I have never played Undertale. lol So for me, it is just another game.
     
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  23. hippocoder

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    That's not really a Unity problem. Physics are hard to control. Period. I do find a lot of problems with the Unity implementation of Physx though in terms of gc allocations and lack of under hood access but it doesn't stop me from getting what I want.
     
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  24. orb

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    Blitz Basic is so ancient I believe some of the early versions of Worms were made with it (in the Amiga days). Unity just needs developers pumping out games like that: Fun, streamlined indie games that would be below the interest threshold of a AAA company, and below the scumminess threshold of Zynga.
     
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  25. GarBenjamin

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    I did a quick search looking for great popular games made in Unity (besides mobile Crossy Road) for @neoshaman's question. Checked out Stardew Valley thinking it had to be either Gamemaker Studio or Unity.... nope! The guy actually created Stardew Valley in C# & XNA. So much for old game frameworks being dead. lol

    Now that I really think about it.... considering all of the people using Unity it is surprising the number of great games that are made in something besides Unity. Kind of odd when you think about it. Maybe unity devs are focusing on the wrong thing(s) and not actually focusing on making great games like these other devs using other engines and frameworks are? Hmm....
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  26. Voronoi

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    Not sure if it counts, but Monument Valley has really influenced how games look since it came out. Also, it proved that there is a market for a premium paid game for the iPad.
     
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  27. hippocoder

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    upload_2016-6-7_17-54-44.png

    Game maker is far, far less capable than Unity is. Yet all these well known game maker titles do very well. I think it's time to stop hating on engines.

    Funny how I own more game maker authored games than I do Unity ones though :)
     
  28. orb

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    Disney have in-house devs, and they use it for various games. At least one Star Wars game (I lost track, so ask zombiegorilla) and various web-based experiments (semi-MMOs). I think they've abandoned their own engine in favour of 3rd party engines (Unity is just one of several they use, I believe).

    Mobile has a lot of popular Unity games. Or non-games! The massively, ridiculously, disgustingly popular AdVenture Capitalist, for instance :)
     
  29. Teila

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    Great post, Hippo. :)

    My son and I have been spending a lot of time running through the extra credit videos. At first it was a way for me to rest my poor hand, but it has been enjoyable and has opened up several good discussions about games and game design.

    One of them is this focus on super duper graphics and how many games are so intent on making cool looking games with action scenes focusing on the physics. This is fine and they certainly sell well these days.

    But we are missing out on some of the old games, the ones that focused on story. I loved the old adventure games myself over action packed games. Maybe, what we can bring to the table is a different sort of game, one focused on story and original art, not just AAA graphics and action packed physics. That doesn't mean we can't do those as well, as games out there made by Unity show us, but that doesn't have to be everything.

    Maybe the audience that is out there waiting for us is not the same audience playing the AAA action titles.
     
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  30. GarBenjamin

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    @orb yeah I see zombie posting often about their team using Unity. It just seems like there "should" be more great Indie games out there done with Unity. I never really thought about it before but I think most of the games I have in my Steam collection are made in something else as well.

    Just kind of makes me wonder what everyone is actually doing. A lot are focused on mobile I am sure and Unity games are probably more well known there. But it seems like many people are working on Steam games too. Maybe everyone is still working on them. lol
     
  31. orb

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    Wasteland 2, the Shadowrun single-player games and the upcoming Torment don't-call-it-a-sequel are some relatively high-profile Unity games outside mobile. Quite a few on PS4 too, I think.
     
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  32. hippocoder

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    Unity titles all do seem to chug a bit perf wise though. Hoping Unity 5.4 finally fixes a lot of the stuttering I get. I never understood how to remove the occasional micro stutters. I'd have 0 GC alloc and >60fps yet hitch and stutters would occasionally happen still :/ odd since these titles all bench far past 60fps. It's as if there is a timing goblin somewhere cackling in spite.

    I get the same from games I've purchase in Unity too.
     
  33. GarBenjamin

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    These appear to all be made by AAA (or at least former AAA) devs? Also the one-man effort Stardew Valley seems to be crushing them in terms of reviews on Steam anyway.

    This is sort of an eye opening thing. Makes me wonder if most of the "little guys" are making games in things outside of Unity. I would have thought most were here period. lol But the evidence seems to be showing that Unity for desktop is getting more of the pro level folks and other game engines and frameworks are getting more of what I think of when I think of Indie (basically one person or at least a very small team, not rich, with no previous AAA game experience & many times no previous game dev experience period generally building these games "on the side" of their real job).

    @hippocoder I've noticed those too mainly in the WebGL prototypes I check out but the stutters do occur sometimes in desktop builds as well. I think it is most noticeable in 2D games. 3D games tend to hide it (just due to the nature of the display).
     
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  34. BornGodsGame

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    Imagine an 8 year old gets into a Porsche and drives it into the side of a building.

    Do you post on the forums and say Porsche has poor handling?

    Unity has given game development access to millions of people, many of whom have the game development skills of an 8 year old, and at nearly the same time, Steam has made it easy for those 8 year olds to sell their games on an open marketplace.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
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  35. GarBenjamin

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    Aha!

    Here we go. An RPG being created in Unity by one person (and a college student at that)!

    "Hero"
    <-- That goes to the Steam Greenlight page ... it has already been Greenlit.

    A nice write up on his dev journey is on Made With Unity.

    I didn't care much for his emphasis being on sort of taking on the AAA but I know some folks around here will appreciate that. And in fairness he mentions the things he had to cut to make the game possible and refers to it as "a simplified RPG". I like that idea for folks like me who don't want to invest a massive amount of time into something like Witcher 3. Just nice to see someone working on a (what will hopefully be a great) desktop game in Unity all by himself part-time with no previous experience (outside of his game dev classes).

    I guess this is where we now point all of the people who come to the forums wanting to make an RPG, right? :)




     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
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  36. Teila

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    And that is what makes Unity great. :)
     
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  37. neoshaman

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    I think candy crush is made with unity but that's not "homegrew"

    In my opinion Unity is in a weird middle:
    1. Too complex for the story game with tech minimalism (undertale, too the moon, and fnaf)
    2. not enough sophisticate for the big spectacle game
    3. not easy to get good performance for the action game

    It have proven itself in the business realm though.

    edit:
    Oh tales of tale had game made with unity I think, they kickstart the walking simulator movement and changed indie games with the path and the graveyard!

    Well I had no problem with blitz3D precisely Because it has none of that :D. Games use unrealistic custom physics anyway and I needed just that.

    Blitz3D was straightforward because:
    1. it handle collision automatically (stop stuff from overlapping and handle "sliding")
    2. It give me a ready made list of all contact point
    3. primitive on mesh collision is lighting fast (no mesh to mesh collision though)

    All I have to do is listen to contact and handle logic base on that, this is cumbersome to do in unity relative to blitz.
     
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  38. Ostwind

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    If you have lots of games installed in one drive you could do a search for *csharp.dll and possibly be surprised how many of them are made with Unity. I have over 20 under Steam folder alone, starting from SteamVR The Lab by Valve to various types of games :)
     
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  39. salgado18

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    1. Get some plugins on the Asset Store, or make your own (not that hard for that kind of game), and you're good to go. And it gives you the tools to go beyond what specialized engines like RPG Maker have. But it takes a bit of work before being productive.
    2. With enough work it gets sofisticate enough for almost anything. It's just not as easy as some other engines, but it can get there.
    3. Have to agree, although it is just one use case.

    Unity is a good tool to make any kind of game you want, although it will never be as great as other specialized tools:

    - it will not be as good as Unreal for 3D action games (but Unreal is not good for other games)
    - it will not be as good as Cryengine for 3D open-world games (but Cryengine is not good for other games)
    - it will not be as easy as RPG Maker for old-school console-style games (but RPG Maker is not good for other games)

    That's what Unity wants to be: a jack of all trades. Anything is possible with Unity. That's why it can't get perfect in any area, like specialized engines, but that's an acceptable trade-off for what they want.
     
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  40. hippocoder

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    Well I had a few discussions with mark about Blitz3D physics back in the day. It had to collide, it didn't have collisions without response. I also had a look at the source once it was opened, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say? you can port it if you want, it's only a few lines of code. Check it here: https://github.com/blitz-research/blitz3d/blob/master/blitz3d/collision.cpp

    It's just sliding collision. I'm not sure why you can't do this with Physx? what stops you? I do it myself with my rigidbody controller. Just control velocity manually and you have it. Obviously with frictionless materials set to multiply.
     
  41. GarBenjamin

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    We'll see... there is supposed to be an early access playable demo on itch.io I'll have to update that post and include that once I find it. Probably on the Steam page.

    The game looks superb from what I can see. I just hope he didn't spend all of his time on that one part and fail to put the same attention into the actual game itself. As soon as I get off work and workout done gonna check it out.
     
  42. Teila

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    I meant the fact that he could even make a game that could be put on steam!! It wasn't that long ago, at least in my point of view, when that would have been impossible. Good or bad, he did it. :)
     
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  43. Moonjump

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    I've seen that a lot in games I'm helping students with. It is usually down to using physics, even for very simple movement, which is an understandable choice as lots of tutorials do that. The problem is Fixed Timestep is not matched exactly to the frame rate. Therefore there will either be 2 Fixed Timestep updates in the occasional frame, or the opposite with none. Either causes a stutter. It can be minimised by dividing 1 by the frame rate and inputting that number for the Fixed Timestep to as many decimal places as possible, but it will still happen occasionally.

    That stutter makes it look like the game is struggling to keep pace when it is just down to a value mismatch. It might not be the case for hippocoder, but it is true for a number of Unity games, and contributes to the impression of Unity performance.
     
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  44. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Very interesting. I don't use the physics at all. Have no need to. Things auto-magically happening... I don't know... it just seems like a recipe for strange behaviors a person would spend weeks sorting out.
     
  45. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    @hippocoder
    I spend 3 years on the game before giving up (or more like stalling) :D

    In blitzbasic I think you refer to collision as "trigger", I didn't have the problem because I used distance check for that and a simple grid bucket where object subscribe based on their position, something like that. I could also bypass collision either by jumping to position or by using ignore collision (though Jumping was maybe a custom code I made). More importantly I had contact every frame, it was in sync with control. There was no complex onColliderEnter/exit, caching collision, whatever. Input collection is awful in unity too.

    There is many subtlety that break things too. But to understand the problem more, it's was frame perfect game where the character should be able to walk on any surfaces and transition any angled mesh (let say it walk on a planetoid like in mario galaxy, with arbitrary shapes and very sharp angle transition) just by walking on its surface . Easy to do in blitz.

    You can make action game in unity, but mine required more precision it could deliver easily.

    Thanks for the code though will save time in a future attempts :D

    @salgado18

    You just restate what I said, is my english so bad :eek:
     
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  46. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

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    Yeah although interpolation would sort that pretty easily. Happens with 2D and no physics too, or something as trivial as rotating the camera slowly, you'll see the camera hitch :/ I'm just going to put it down to nature of the beast.

    Well, Mark Sibly is basically a wizard in disguise. I wonder if we'd all be using BlitzUnity if he went ahead with his original plan to make a RAD game tool.
     
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  47. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Remenber you on the Blitz's forum. The good old days. :p
    And yes, Sibly is a very good programmer..
     
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  48. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Do any people who originally created the unity engine worked on game?
     
  49. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

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  50. arkon

    arkon

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    No I don't think so. I think this is the main difference between Unity and Unreal and why Unreal has such a distinct higher level of street Credibility. If they created their own games of the quality Unreal put out there would be 3 distinct advantages. 1) The engine performance, stability and quality would improve beyond measure. 2) They would detect and fix critical bugs faster and less likely to have them in the first place. 3) The Made with Unity stigma might disappear over time.

    I've had a full week on Unreal now and the big difference I now think is that it's super easy to create a game concept or mock up in unity, and it's slower to do in Unreal. Problem is and I should know, because you reach fully working mockup so fast you end up releasing a game quicker albeit it looks like a mockup! Check my stuff out and you will see what I mean. I can complete most of my games in Unity within a month or two, I'd have to double that for Unreal, and the poor quality just shows through.

    My Naval warfare stuff I can never get the water looking good in Unity on mobile as the performance is so terrible. I had a quick test on Unreal with water and it looked super good and much more performant. On my Unity stuff I've long reached a point where I ship stuff that should be better but the effort to actually make a good looking and fast game on Unity is too hard. Unreal seems to achieve this out of the box though.
     
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