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Unity mmorpg Multiplayer game

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by MayhemMaker, Nov 19, 2014.

  1. jtadeo1

    jtadeo1

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    @Ibzy and @CarterG81
    The free (zero money down) Photon service allows you to use their servers vs. setting up your own. I have a full unlimited server license that I've set up on a Windows Server and it was a bit tricky. The PUN service is so much easier. If anyone is interested, I have a simple tutorial on how to do this on my YouTube channel. I've been using it to document some of the work I've done with Photon.

    @Ibzy, will check out the gamooga link, that looks interesting!
     
    DiscussedTree and CarterG81 like this.
  2. K-z3

    K-z3

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    Photon Server is Free to download... just download it... comes with Free 100 CCU License, but you will need a Dedicated Server Running for it... either at Home for now, or at a Datacenter.

    @CarterG81 stop talking about how easy it is, and show us all. and by the way I didn't tell Ibzy he couldn't make an MMO I pretty much said it sounds like he has potential, but there is still alot more to this, lots of factors to consider. But why not prove us all wrong and show us how easy it really is... i'll wait...
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  3. jtadeo1

    jtadeo1

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    @Kuroato, maybe I misunderstood, but I don't believe @CarterG81 was implying it was "easy" to create an MMO. Just that it is possible albeit it will take time to do. I do agree that there are many factors to consider and the skills required are vast. However, one can learn or acquire it by finding someone else to do the parts they can't.
     
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  4. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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  5. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    You can actually run it right on the same PC your developing on if it's only going to be you logging on to test stuff...
     
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  6. p87

    p87

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    unity is also working on a new networking solution... I think at some point during 5x but who knows. They did a video about it at unite 2014. first phase is just kind of simple multiplayer, but their vision is to democratize developing multiplayer games, and the later phases will be for dedicated master servers, etc. So that's something to keep in mind.

    I guess the main thing is try to develop it in such a way that you don't have to rip apart all the code when you finally want to make it multiplayer - implement software design patterns, make your code as loosely coupled as possible. As you're working on your game, you should know which logic will have to run on the server, and which logic runs on the client. Try to code it in such a manner that you don't have to rip apart the whole game when you want to make it multiplayer.

    It would definitely be easier to start out with something like photon realtime. However, most games probably need some server-side code. Like databases, saving account information and characters, etc. This kinda stuff falls outside the realm of game development.

    I think the moral of this thread is... you need to plan your project appropriately. Define your requirements, do the research, and learn what it will take to implement the features of your game. Don't just jump in and start coding with the intention of turning it into a huge multiplayer game "some day". You have to plan for that from the beginning. If you sat down and did the research, gathered requirements, scoped everything out, you might find that your small team of 2 intermediate developers would need 10 years to finish this game. Or you might find there are a lot of elements that you have absolutely no idea how to implement. So it doesn't make sense to say "yeah we're doing this" when you have no idea how to do it. Figure that out first. If you want to be serious about game development (actually finish a game), you have to make sure the scope of your project is realistic.

    there's no tutorial that's going to hold your hand through the steps of making a huge multiplayer game. there are certainly some resources available that can help you understand about client/server networking. Honestly I would say just make a single player game to start out, if you've never made a game before. Cranking out an mmo as your first game is probably not realistic. Some good points have been made, about how multiplayer games have been made by small teams, but those developers were obviously experienced and knew what they were doing. Those were most likely not their first games.
     
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  7. jtadeo1

    jtadeo1

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    @philwinkel, I agree.

    Overall, good thread and I like that fact that we've all been pretty friendly about this topic.

    My first experience with multiplayer was using the Torque Game Engine and RealmCrafter (not sure if they're even around). Unity's previous networking solution was ok but I found Photon to be better. Now there's a few solutions being offered. I'm excited to see what Unity will offer in 5.x.
     
  8. K-z3

    K-z3

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    +100 THANK YOU!!

    I've been trying to say something along those lines, but they just don't get where i'm coming from... maybe my wording is just totally off, but you nailed it!

    My gripe is that a lot of people on Unity Forums who announce they want to make an MMO have very few years of experience in game development period. It's easy to figure that out by the kind of questions they ask... and through reading and trying to reply to those questions, it's hard not to tell them "dude with your experience it's not going to happen" as in with your experience right now. Build smaller games, build smaller Multiplayer Games first then start talking about an MMO after you have successfully developed and released some Multiplayer Games. You'll be better prepared for developing an MMO once you actually have some smaller Multiplayer Games developed.

    I have worked on many many projects, and have always aimed for developing Multiplayer Games, I have more failure prototypes than I have successful ones that actually turned into something. I learned a great deal from these multiplayer prototypes that didn't make it into production development phase. But even with that I'm still not ready to take on an MMO, because I know how hard it is... and how much more resources i'll need that I don't currently have.

    So for someone like me with experience, I wouldn't jump on this forum and say Hey Guys I'm Making an MMO because I know damn right it's not possible. Not with my current resources, and experience, because I know there is still so much more for me to learn. One thing that's most important is the planning phase... if you don't even have a solid Game Design Document laid out, and plan for how your going to build this MMO... kids trust me your wasting your time....
     
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  9. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    @JamesPro What if it was me and a handful of others connecting each from our own Homes, would hosting it on my Dev PC still work? Obviously I'd not be hosting while devving, but to connect and test with each other as and when we need.
     
  10. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    It would depend on your internet and router setup. As long as your able to connect from outside your network then it would be fine. Some routers provided by ISPs have built in Firewalls and stuff that prevent outside connections.
     
  11. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    I thought that would be the case with the current Unity Network setup - but other are able to connect to my session from elsewhere.

    I'll download and give it a go. Thanks.
     
  12. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Ok, so I have Photon Server running and I must say - documentation is not very clear with this!

    Once I got the server running, I'm told I just ahve to add the dll to my Assets/Plugins folder, and then a specific "using" line at the start of my code....that helps! There is no indication of whether I use the standard NetworkView or not, how I pass anything to the server is a complete mystery, and I'm starting to think the server I'm running on my machine does not work in the way a "dedicated" server would - there is no evidence of me linking an instance of my game world to this without a version running.
     
  13. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    You did not misunderstand. Kuroato is just making things up in his head and applying it to me for some strange reason.

    Quite the contrary, I can be directly quoted saying that MMO's are VERY HARD to make.

    So it is quite clear Kuroato, from my very first post, isn't fully interested in what others have to say. Not only did no one imply it was easy, I can be quoted saying that just like making any video game, making a MMO it is very hard.

    This is why it is best to simply place on ignore anyone who says "Impossible!" and then argues in length as to why they were right to say it- despite tons of legitimate evidence pointing to how possible it is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
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  14. KarlGG

    KarlGG

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    As you said earlier, one should take everything said on forums with a grain of salt.

    Even this. :p
     
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  15. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    You had a good post with much I agree with. One thing though...

    Although Sherwood Dungeon was not Gene's first game, all the games before it were developed for him to learn how to make Sherwood Dungeon.

    However, even though it wasn't his first "game", Gene had very little programming experience when he started. So no, not all of these multiplayer games were made by "developers [who] were obviously experienced and knew what they were doing."

    It's an arguable point anyway.

    My point is: look at his other games. They aren't 'complete' or 'whole' games like Sherwood Dungeon. They are games that could be made in Unity in a few days by following a few tutorials. They are 'learning dev games'. He went from knowing very little (and having no game dev experience) to completing a MMO all by himself. (If you want to call learning project games, then go ahead but then you're just arguing semantics.)

    Anyway, that link to the interview with Gene is more than enough to end all debate on the matter. Everyone else said enough... so I'm out.

    Good luck to everyone in making their very possible projects. The only thing stopping you is you, your life circumstances, and a whole lot of ignorant nay-sayers who very well might lack the confidence to believe in themselves enough to chase their dreams.

    Don't be a nay-sayer. Be a dream-chaser.

     
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  16. K-z3

    K-z3

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    hmmmm whats this Quote above from Carter above... hmmm let me see it reads "Developing an MMO is super easy. It takes no more than four hours." then you link to some developer showing us how we can make super duper easy MMO... o wait did I read 3D anywhere NOPE it reads .... "I bet you could have a 2D MMO game up and running in a week"

    That's been my point Carter that you seem to keep missing.... 2D MMO is easier than 3D anyday... once you throw 3D into the mix... and QUALITY 3D at that... if you have few years of experience and have not developed any Multiplayer Games in your Life Ever... and just want to Jump right into an MMO.... yes I will say it's impossible as I said before!

    Now your saying above, the same exact thing I have been saying... that one should try to make smaller Multiplayer Games first before venturing off into MMO... What am I missing here? lol....

    geez... you need to spend more time developing games than on this forum... yep i'm on here alot, but i'm actually making some progress on my Small Multiplayer Games, how about yourself?

    I hate people who rant on, but have nothing to show for what they say.... quote all the indie mmo's you want, i speak from hands on experience, you speak and seem to live by other people's stories.
     
  17. KarlGG

    KarlGG

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    He did mention a game he was doing, including a link to it.
     
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  18. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    -_-

    oh geez... you really need to read other's posts fully...

    Here, I will spell it out for you:

    learn2read.png
    learn2read2.png

    Second, even if those were my words, my message is extremely clear. The link points to a "MMO", not a WoW remake. So if you wanted to argue semantics, making a MMO can be easy, especially if it's basically not even a game. Still, I never said that. I was very clear in stating how making a MMO is very hard, just like making any complex (or even simple) game is very hard.

    2D, 3D, what does it matter for an MMO? The complex part of a MMO is the networking. A part which doesn't care about rendering. A part entirely separate from rendering. How does the rendering of a 2D or 3D game relate to a game's networking?
    I know what you meant though. You meant a 2D game is easier/quicker to develop than a 3D one due to less content. Although that is an arguable statement by itself, I will agree with you just so I can say "um...so what?" You could also argue that making a 3D Skyrim is "easier" than making a 2D skyrim. Although IMO, both are very hard... what does that have to do with a MMO?
    I'd actually argue with you that 2D games are "easier" (a very vague term for a game which could vary in enormous ways irrelevant of rendering) but this is not the place for that. We're discussing MMO's.


    Here is a direct quote from the interview with the developer of Sherwood Dungeon, a solo-dev MMORPG. Something which you are ignoring, but I will spell it out for you so you don't even have to click the links.

    Gene Endrody is the man behind the free MMORPG Sherwood Dungeon and other multi-player games on maidmarian.com. Despite the fact that Gene had little programming experience, he's managed to do all the development himself...

    How can you even continue to argue? The evidence is right there in your face. You literally cannot deny it. Stop. Saying. It's. Impossible.
     
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  19. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Ignoring the hypocrisy which you yourself pointed out (very strange...)
    What I do with my time is absolutely none of your business. The only thing I "need" to do is whatever I want to do. Perhaps you are just projecting- perhaps you are the one who should be spending more time developing games than on arguing on this forum.
    If I want, I will post on these forums and argue until my face turns blue. I am thoroughly enjoying my rebuttals to your ill-conceived "It is impossible!" argument. Lots of fun for me today.



    Wow. I literally do not know what to say.

    I speak and live by other people's stories? Whaaat?

    Those "other people's stories" is what normal people call "Facts".
    Evidence. Proof. Tangible support for an argument. Irrefutable reality.
    You are literally saying something is impossible, when it can be proven by multiple people's tangible accomplishments...

    You might as well be saying "It is impossible for Mankind to invent some kind of flying machine which allows them to travel outside the Earth's atmosphere." or "It is impossible to plant a seed in the ground and have something grow. This is real life, not a television show!"

    I definitely speak and live by other people's stories. That is the foundation of knowledge and science. Really, that is the foundation of everything we know and do. It is how society functions.
    You sound like one of those anti-science fundies. "You speak and live by the research of past scientists! You know nothing John Snow!"

    I cannot believe me ears. "You speak and seem to live by other people's stories." As if your firsthand experience somehow nullifies their tangible evidence? Does Sherwood Dungeon, Tale in the Desert, or Runescape not exist because YOU feel it is impossible to make those games yourself???

    Welcome to the ignore list, which I reserve only for the worst of trolls.
    Thank you though. I will be sharing this quote with so so SO many people. " i speak from hands on experience, you speak and seem to live by other people's stories." :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  20. K-z3

    K-z3

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    Carter you sure have alot of time on your hands.... again... spend it making games so you can actually live and speak by your own hands on experience not someone elses. Gene from Sherwood made other multuplayer games before he ventured off into MMO, what part of that haven't I already said, and someone also stated the same? what part of EXPERIENCE IS REQUIRED don't you understand? I have already corrected myself way way before in this thread saying "yes it's possible but under the right conditions"... and again I keep saying "I'm TALKING ABOUT A QUALITY 3D MMO HERE" Not talking about making a 2D MMO, or the next Sherwood Dungeon with low end graphics.... but hey your the expert here right? 2D, 3D What does it matter as you say.... It Does Matter... and What Quality your Aiming for at That Matters, and Networking is Not the Only Complex Part of Making a Quality 3D MMO, but if you want to argue that some more go ahead... feel free chase your own tail... You'll probably ignore me but you'll come running back to this thread to see what I replied with next so you can continue you argument when you not even throughly reading what i'm refering to in regards to what kind of MMO.... but go ahead pop out MSPAINT Again and draw some more circles, and slam me with something new it this hilarious debate with someone who probably hasn't made a 3D muiltiplayer game from scratch yet ... lol...
     
  21. K-z3

    K-z3

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    Yep he is working on a game all right, looks like a 2D Single Player... nothing on his Dev Blog says anything about MMO or Multiplayer. Which is surprising as much as he likes to argue MMO is possible, I don't even see a single mention of Multiplayer anywhere on his Dev Blog Here http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/a-unique-starflight-y-game.227695/

    My issue with Carter is he argues about the possibilities of creating an MMO while he has not done so himself, doesn't have a 3D Multiplayer Game Developed From Scratch, because if he did maybe he might have a clue about how truly difficult it is to create a Quality 3D MMO as an Indie. (again not talking Sherwood Dungeon Quality).

    People are searching for answers here on how to make a Successful Quality 3D MMO's... I tell them, and others tell them it's impossible with your experience because what they might be looking to create requires so much resources (between money development cost, hardware cost, time, content, dedicated team, marketing etc. etc.) I'd rather be realistic with people and try to tell them your probably better off creating a small multiplayer game and focus on successful launching that game first before venturing off into a project that may take you 10 years to do on your own which you'll probably get burnt out, or never finish if were talking about a serious Quality 3D MMO here...

    "Quality 3D MMO" is the Key Word I am focused on, but Mr. Pumpkin Head here insists that no matter how big your project is it can be done as an Indie! Sure it can be done with the right experience, team, and resources. Which for the most part, most people here on Unity Forums who ask about How to Make MMOs don't have any of the above... so they have a long painful road ahead to eventually find out they made very bad mistakes from a foundation level with their lack of experience, and then their dream MMO caves in.

    I'd rather see them put their time into creating something Smaller that can be of good Quality, and something they can actually complete in a years time or so... and work their way up to building a Quality 3D MMO in the future.

    Pumpkin Head is too focused on trying to bash me because I said the word "impossible" and wants to disregard any experience, time, resources needed by an Indie to make a Quality 3D MMO Possible.

    I look forward to seeing the results of all the in-experienced unity developers who are solo, or have a team with a dream of creating a Quality 3D MMO... I'm looking forward to the results of people with zero networking experience, or zero multiplayer development experience jump right into an MMO as their first multiplayer project ever and make a success out of it! Haven't seen one yet...
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  22. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    As much as I am enjoying the debate between you guys, (and I say debate rather than argument as I am pleased to see not head on flaming, or resorting to childish insults/swearing - kudos), I'd like to point out that despite his (or her?) attitude towards indies jumping straight into trying to make an MMO Kuroato has given some pieces of advice/direction. While I agree that MMOs are not by any means the way to start your game development career, I did find that trying to start with one helped me realise the many areas I needed to learn before attempting it properly. I now have an abundance of incomplete games made for proof of concept and/or learning purposes and I now feel that I am ready to start.

    This will by no means be a huge, top-notch MMO with fantastic animations, graphics and storyline, with gripping quest lines and an abundance of side-quests to keep people playing for years to come (yet) but it will be a step towards that. Look at how basic the first version of Runescape was compared to what it is today (its no WoW, but it has increasingly better graphics and quest/storylines). But if it peaks the interest of a couple hundred players or so - I would consider it enough of a success to continue developing and paying for high quality modellers and animators, dedicated servers, etc.

    I am working on a 3D MMO which will be targeting people with lower-end machines, but with better graphics available to those with better rigs. This may not qualify as a "Quality 3D MMO", but I would happily show my progress and release demo versions throughout the development stages so people can see what a solo developer has managed to accomplish right in front of them.

    A word to others who would like to do the same: as a solo developer, I am having to create my own models, textures, animations, storyline, quests...the lot. While there are many free assets available, you will never find something that has the right animation for you, the right size/shape/style/look. My first attempt used a free human rigged model with many basic animations, but making a simple sword swing work with it was a nightmare. Then you come to displaying equipment, and having it move correctly with the body. The list of unforeseen roadblocks is immense, but with determination and the right approach, they can be overcome.

    I know I said I am working in a small team before (while above I state solo) - that literally consists of me developing, and a number of friends testing and throwing in ideas.
     
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  23. Teila

    Teila

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    Geesh, some folks here have nothing better to do than discourage others. What business is it of theirs what sort of game someone makes or whether they will ever finish it? What does it to do to them? Are they so soft hearted they can't can't bear for someone else to try and fail?

    Come on...be mature. Let other people make their own choices and be responsible for the outcome. Seems we live in a world where everyone is so eager to tell everyone else what they cannot do rather than encourage them to live their dream.
     
  24. K-z3

    K-z3

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    I do encourage other's to live their dream, go for it... but don't come on a forum asking "how to make an MMO" and you don't like the answers given. Yea, maybe alittle harsh, but but the Truth is not pretty sometimes. I'm not trying to crush anyone's dream, i'm actually trying to tell you MMO dreamers to start out small... and build up to it because it's not easy. Maybe I can work on my replies better, and maybe this thread will server as my learning process to reply better to these questions... (i'm working on it), but i'm not going to with hold what I feel is truth "impossible to make a quality 3D MMO with little resources, and experience" that's all I'm pointing out to anyone with big dreams of doing such. I don't think i'm a horrible person for sharing that.
     
  25. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    I think I broke Kuroato.

    This isn't an argument or debate. This was over several posts ago...
    I wanted to see if Kuroato would just stop after being so horrifically defeated over and over.
    You can't lose worse than irrefutable evidence combined with big red arrows pointing in a way even a kindergartener could understand.
    It's not common you get to see a person like this in action. I had to see if my hypothesis was correct.

    What was my hypothesis?

    Well, it amazed me that Kuroato continues to have this irrational perspective, even after all that was said and proven... "I am right to discourage others by telling them MMO's are impossible!"

    I drew big huge red circles pointing to who is me, and who is NOT me. Yet Kuroato insists on attacking this ""MMO's are easy" strawman anyway. Could he not understand the big red circles and arrows? There is no civility in this "argument". There is only him ignoring everything that is being said, ignoring the irrefutable evidence, then using some sort of ad hominem / straw man to try to convince himself he is correct in denying reality.

    It's almost as if...ah yes! My hypothesis IS correct!
    He is stuck in a logical loop, based on some kind of ego stubbornness problem
    "I am always right. Yet this time I'm wrong. But I'm always right. Yet this time I'm wrong. BUT IM ALWAYS RIGHT...ERROR ERROR ERRORRRR 0101010101010101001010101 *kaboom*"



    So here you have it folks: a huge troll who ignores everything others say, while simultaneously listening and agreeing with it- yet insisting he was correct in saying what he admits is wrong... all while insisting on discouraging others from following their dreams- for no reason other than to discourage them for the sake of discouragement. Cause....their failed MMO hurts him on the insides????

    This guy is so irrational...it blows my mind. I've been on forums quite religiously for almost two decades, and this guy is a nomination for dumbest troll award. That's saying something...
    Best to simply place him on ignore, and unlike me, refrain from clicking "Show Ignored Content". I just couldn't resist though. This is solid gold. It's like a rare pokemon appeared and I get to poke it.
    Click that "Show Ignored Content" button though, and your IQ will drop. Promise.

    Then again, what do I know? I simply "speak and seem to live by other people's stories". Or what some call "supporting evidence". In this case irrefutable evidence. You can't say it is impossible. It is literally already done MULTIPLE TIMES.

    There was never an argument to be had. Follow. Your. Dreams! This includes you Kuroato! You can do it! Make that dream MMO!
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
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  26. KoboldCommando

    KoboldCommando

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    i had to register just for this but it is worth it

    makeyourmmo.png
     
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  27. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    I strongly recommend a small team and especially a solo dev, to refer to Mixamo for all their animation needs.

    The animations are very high quality, extremely cheap and affordable, and fit in any (biped) character (rigg) you can upload.

    By using Mixamo, an indie dev:

    1) Saves Time. The animations are already fully implemented and professionally polished.

    2) Save Money. Infinitely cheaper than hiring your own animator.

    3) Save Sanity. You don't have to do it yourself, meaning the animations will be AAA quality with no loss of your mind! You can focus on more important areas.

    4) Increase Quality. The Mixamo animations, IMO, are higher quality than anything an amateur could do himself, and even better than a lot of paid animators can do. They were surprisingly...even better looking when placed on my own custom characters. They are at the very minimum, acceptable. At the very best, AAA.

    If they don't have an animation you need, you can always request (currently you can vote or submit new ideas for animations). In the end, if you need more or unique animations, you can still save some cash with Mixamo even if you end up hiring a custom animator.
     
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  28. Teila

    Teila

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    Why not, Kuroato? This is a game development forum. People come here to ask how to make games. There is absolutely no reason why they deserve to be treated "harshly". You really should give your opinion, but why beat a dead horse? Maybe this guy doesn't want to make a game he can sell but is doing it as a hobby? Maybe he wants to make something he can play with his buddies? Encourage people to live their dream. :)

    I really appreciate your honesty, really, I do. I especially like your comment "Maybe I can work on my replies better, and maybe this thread will server as my learning process to reply better to these questions... (i'm working on it),". We all can work on it and is fantastic that you are trying.

    You are not a horrible person. I think it is fine to state your position. I do think that it is also fine for people to make MMO's and it is fine for them to talk about it on the forums. Our small team is making an MMO (albeit a tiny one) and honestly, the "perceived" hatred toward people like us makes me not want to post anything at all about our game, nada, nothing. The responses here to others make me feel as if we are the "red headed step-children" of the Unity world. :)

    I could care less what kind of game you are working on. It might be something I really dislike (like fps) but there is no way I would ever tell you not to make it or that it is stupid, or that it is overdone. I think it is very cool that people are making all sorts of things. :)
     
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  29. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    This, especially on this forum, is a big reason I am insistent on being involved in this thread and opposed to the idiocy of someone who argues that we should be harsh, lie in an effort to be honest (wtf?), or mislead people to filter out the 'losers'.

    Sometimes there are literal kids who post too. I do not believe children should be blasted by adults just because their dreams are too idealistic or their understanding of game dev too naive. It sickens me.They're just children for god's sake.

    I am a very blunt and honest person. I don't sugar coat anything, and try my best to make sure people know the hard truth. The truth is that if you chase your dream, you can fulfill it- just as many have done before. I won't say it's easy, but they will learn along the way how much they have to learn first- and that's okay.

    What kind of idiot thinks the world needs more pessimists and nay-sayers? As if the world is thriving with optimism and hope? As if the internet is a very positive, friendly, encouraging place? What world do they live in, where we need more negativity in a world already full of trolls and monsters?

    I also see where this "realist" (loss of hope) goes to. It ends up with horribly uninnovative, uninspired clones of yet-another-popular-genre. It leads to "safe" alternatives and crappily implemented features because the programmer was too scared to innovate and decided it is easier to simply do it the way they did it in the 90's.

    I've asked many a game dev, some even admitting they are afraid of a challenge / perceived difficulty. The naysayers indeed hurt many developers and stifle innovation.

    Meanwhile you have "the greats" who do things that are hard. They do things while ignoring all the nay-saying idiots. The results are innovations which people nearly ALWAYS love. Like Dwarf Fortress. Imagine all the people who told Tarn Adams "That is stupid and needlessly complex. Scale down your scope." What if Adams decided to scale down his scope? How many fans of DF would there be then, if the game were not needlessly complex?

    In our world, there will always be nay-sayers, pessimists, and those who yell "Impossible, you FOOL!" So everyone should strive their hardest to be encouraging, even when pragmatic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  30. K-z3

    K-z3

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    Thanks! ^_^

    @CarterG81 OK you win... I don't have nearly as much free time to waste as you do to spend on this forum! you got me all figured out! your the man, and i'd like to Nominate you as the Official Unity Forum MMO Cheerleader! I look forward to all the awesome MMOs that will be produced by all the newbie developers that you will guide to success!

    All the Best! ^_^
     
  31. jtadeo1

    jtadeo1

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    Ok then. It's decided. We all gonna be makin' all kinds of MMOs in 2015. :p;)

    Ultimately, we have to start somewhere. Where that is really depends on the individual or team.

    For me, I like to take baby steps. Before I created my multi-player, I made very simple point and click games with Unity. I didn't immediately dive into networking programming. It was important for me to fully understand the innards and the whys of RPC calls, Serialization, JSON, UDP, and all the other stuff. Any monkey can copy and paste code but at some point, to get to the next level, one needs to understand what they're doing. As for MMO, if you have the determination, stamina, and stick-to-it, you can accomplish just about anything! It also helps if you're a full stack developer > designer > programmer.

    I basically understand what @Kuroato is trying to say. I've been on these forums since 2006 and I have see sooooo many delcarations of solo and team devs stating that they will create an MMO. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, everyone has given up less than 8 months into it.

    MMOs are not easy. But it is possible to create one. As per @CarterG81 's example links, people have done it and are doing it. Nothing is impossible, it just takes time.

    ...sip...
     
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  32. K-z3

    K-z3

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    I don't think Carter's Links are the best as they all reference 2D MMOs and 2 Low Quality 3D MMOs. Please show me a number of Quality 3D MMOs Created by Indie Teams? I don't know of any... but maybe someone else can link one... honestly i'm interested to a see a near AAA Quality 3D MMO completed by an Indie Team, and how many at that as that has been my primary focus... I have known about those MMOs, and yep they are easier to make in comparison to higher quality 3D MMOs. Now i'm not talking about Wow, Lineage II, or Guild Wars Quality but something close... all the MMOs mention don't come close.
     
  33. Teila

    Teila

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    The point is..why do you care so much what other people do? Why is this a serious issue for you that you feel you have to "win"? I am baffled, and that is my honest opinion, Kuroato. I am a pragmatist...and I tell the truth. I don't sugar coat anything and if you read my posts you can see that. However, I also don't give a flying fig leaf what kinds of games others are creating or how much time they waste. Personally, I don't think it is a waste of time to do anything creative. They do learn. And as Carter says, many of these folks are children. I do not know if you are a parent, but trust me, you can't tell a kid they can't do something. lol You can tell them that it won't be easy, you can point them in the right direction and you can be there to help them learn from their mistakes. In the end, you can support them when they fail and help them to see what they have learned and how to apply that new knowledge.

    I have three very talented creative kids, one who has become a gifted programmer and is helping us with our game (he is an adult now) and two that are amazing artists. I have adult friends whose parents wouldn't send them to art school or who discouraged their music careers. Those adults are either angry and bitter about that to this day or they went back later and became what they wanted to be...and are successful. I make sure my kids know that making games is tough and becoming an artist is not easy, but I absolutely love that they are following their dream.

    If one kid reads Carter's posts and decides that maybe he/she can make a game, the kind of game they want, and tries, then it won't matter if they fail. What matters is that they tried and that they learned. If a kid reads the myriad of posts here telling them to give up, don't be stupid, give in to the peer pressure not to succeed at making your game, etc., then that is very sad. And the people here should be ashamed of themselves.

    Honesty is good. Shaming people, pressuring them to go along with the flow is immature at best, cruel at the worst. I don't know the motivation behind people's words and honestly, I don't get it. I think you are really trying to help, but not sure you realize the impact of your words. I don't think most people do, to be honest.

    I grew up when teachers thought women couldn't do math. Everyone, including my dad thought so. So I failed math. In college, I decided to become a scientist and worked very very hard to make it through two semesters of calculus and three semesters of physics. I did it, barely, but I passed and went on to graduate school. Lots of people told me I couldn't do it. Professors told us that women shouldn't go into that particular field. Years later, I was the one they would ask to sit at the table during college orientations, talking to girls about geology..and boys.

    So maybe that is why it bugs me enough when I see people saying "You can't do this" rather than simply letting people try. One doesn't have to tell people to make MMO's after all, all they have to do is not discourage everyone quite so much who does want to make one. :)
     
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  34. Teila

    Teila

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    Kuroato, be realistic. Most indie teams are not going to make games that rival WoW or other big corporation-made games. We are making indie games. Come on....the point is not to compete with Blizzard. The point is to make something that is fun. Many of us are not doing this to become rich but more as a creative or learning endeavor.

    There are a number of MMOs started by indie teams. Eve comes to mind right now, but there are others in the works as well. Some of them might do well, some might not. But that isn't the point. If you really think success is all that determines whether one should do/try something they I guess one shouldn't do very much, huh?
     
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  35. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    So the 3D MMOs created by indie teams are of low quality, but they managed it. The desire for AAA, blockbuster graphics is not entirely present within the indie community - a good game, with good features and a good story/premise can have Parapa the Rapper graphics and still be accepted and "popular". These low quality 3D MMOs surely could become something you'd consider high quality with nothing more than improved models, animations and textures? All of these are things that can still be created by a solo/indie developer given time, learning, and dedication. Alternatively, I believe Carter pointed to Maximo for cheap (read inexpensive) animations of high quality.

    Look at Everquest - the graphics are AWFUL and direction, I found, is very lax. But how popular is/was this game? Enough for over 20 expansions - none of which improve the graphics - along with 2 sequels. No, this is not by an indie team, but I'm sure it meets the description of "low quality 3D MMO".
     
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  36. Teila

    Teila

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    Absolutely, Ibzy. In fact, there are some discussions on the Design forum about whether AAA graphics are really all that desirable in Indie games. Are game mechanics and other immersing elements in games being left out in order to accommodate better, more powerful graphics?

    I would also argue that for the types of MMO players who would go to a smaller niche MMO, graphics are less important to them then other elements of the game. They would gladly give up a little "glitter" if they could have more realistic NPCs, better AI, and more interactive game play. I think it actually hurts us as indie MMO developers to concentrate so much of our time on fantastic AAA graphics. Our time is better spent on other aspects of the game.
     
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  37. K-z3

    K-z3

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    @Teila I am trying to help by telling those chasing their dream of creating an MMO to start with creating smaller multiplayer games, i've said that already in my very early posts. Again, maybe my wording is not to others liking, but I didn't call anyone chasing that dream any bad names, or made any nasty comments to be-little them in anyway. Yes I might have said the words "impossible" but I also corrected myself, and said this is what I mean by "impossible" regarding Indie's making a Quality 3D MMO something close to Lineage II, Guild Wars, or WoW. That's all I have been saying but somehow you all keep losing that point... I think it's Perfectly Fine and Normal for me to have my opinion about such being "impossible" to do by indies who want to jump into making such a game without the proper experience, time, and resources. Nothing wrong with my sharing of my position on the matter that I have clearly explained over and over... So I don't know what's all the Confusion about...

    @Ibzy here is claiming to want to make an MMO, am I bashing him? No... am I saying anything degrading to him? No... I actually happen to have presented him with questions, and talked numbers about budget etc. and even recommend Photon Server for what he wants to do because he actually does not seem like some other kid on the forum announcing that they are making an MMO with zero experience. So I don't think i'm nearly as negative as you all are making me out to be here...
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  38. Teila

    Teila

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    Yes, you did suggest a smaller MMO and that is fine. But you also filled your posts with rants about people who want to build an MMO. You apologized for crushing their dream..hence you know you did imply such a thing. ;)

    You appeared to made assumptions about the poster. You have no idea if he/she disappeared because they were not serious or if they had school or work...or if based on their welcome here, they went to another engine. You could have ignored the thread or you could have given them a link to the many threads that spell out what is required to build an MMO. Then they will see for themselves. Instead, you seemed to categorized them based on whatever you think they said or did and then you did tell them "dude, it isn't going to happen." See the first quote. :)

    And why is this your gripe? Why does it matter so much to you? You are out to save all developers who want to make MMOs? So nice of you but I don't think it is necessary. Let other people who are willing to help like Carter take care of them and you can move on to something much bigger and better, like working on your own game. That way, your dream can come true.

    My gripe is about people who insert themselves into discussions that they really don't want to have. If you don't like people with little experience to make MMO's, then ignore them. I can tell you as one of those people that I would be much much happier not to have to read your rants. Why I read them, I have no clue. I guess because I want those poor inexperienced kids to at least have a few people who stand up for them and their RIGHT, yes, their right, to post and ask questions here, even if it bugs you.

    Kuroato, I am sure you are a nice person and please don't take this personally. I just think you are on the same band wagon as so many others here. It is cool to attack people who are making MMO's.

    Oh, Ibzy is cool. But you did bash the OP and in turn, everyone else who asks questions about MMO's on these forums. Go back and read your posts.
     
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  39. K-z3

    K-z3

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    @Teila the difference between the OP and Ibzy is that he actually shared some background info about who he is, what experience he has, and what his plan is to some degree... that's probably alot better than what some other people do. Making a good first impression goes a long way, you will take people more seriously that way, and provide better responses to their questions.

    You keep asking me why i care so much... ok but i can say the same to you... why do you care so much to reply to my comments if you don't like the way i present my answers or replies to yet another "I'm going to make an MMO thread with zero experience" lol.... it's all pointless at this point because we all don't see eye to eye on things... i'm not trying to win anything here... i'm sharing my thoughts in the way i do, your sharing yours great! No one wins, no one is wrong, or right... just different approaches...
     
  40. Teila

    Teila

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    I stated above why I care. People who post here need to be encouraged and feel as if people are supporting them. That is why I post. Besides, I am one of those people you are bashing and I am standing up for myself. I don't like it and I don't need to hear your opinion. Advice, yeah, but you have no right to dismiss me or those like me just because you don't like that I am making a game that you don't like.

    As for the way the OP and IBzy presented themselves...that should make no difference to you except for one thing. With Ibzy, you have something to share with him that will help him so dialogue with him. With the OP, you had nothing other than to try to teach him a lesson. It is not your job to ward the forums from what you regard as useless people who have no right to ask questions. It is your job, on these forums, to add constructive dialogue to the discussions, not make people feel as if they do not belong or that they can't succeed unless they do it the way you believe they should do it.

    We don't see eye to eye on this. But you know what? These guys don't post here to get responses like you gave them. They want help. Telling them that they should consider making a smaller game first is a huge help to them. It is constructive and it really is all you need to say. Then let them follow up. But bashing, and yes you did bash, as I illustrated above, is not helping. Why not just leave them be?

    In some ways, I am doing to you what you are doing to them. I have tried to deal with these stupid threads where people slam others for making games that for some odd reason...well, I have my suspicions why but won't go there...they don't like. I guess I decided to get it out here once and for all and you are unfortunately, the one who gets my wrath. Sorry about that...but geesh, let others try and fail. There is no need for you to save us.
     
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  41. K-z3

    K-z3

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    Soooo.... your saying it's my Job to do as you say and reply to threads like these according to how you believe one should reply to them? Control Issues Much? Relax... people are allowed and free to reply and say what they wish and have whatever opinions they want, but somehow you've just made it your job to tell me or maybe others like me how we are suppose to reply to threads according to your standards.... geez whats that about?

    I get you feel offended because your making an MMO yourself, but hey chances are you might actually succeed with your game because it doesn't seem like your aiming for a high end 3D MMO, and if you were i'd definitely would love to know how you plan to accomplish that but i'm sure your not prepared to share what your working on because your afraid of people like me? Like I said over and over... I've replied to this thread in the way I did because of how the OP presented himself, (zero info about his experience in networking, and wants to turn a single player into 100 player MMO)... yep chances are the next person i see post in a similar fashion i might very well reply in the same exact way... and i guess I will meet you and Carter the Official Unity MMO Indie Defenders on that next thread lol...

    my thoughts, my opinions... deal with it... or don't... ignore me and move on all good.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  42. Teila

    Teila

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    Ummm...aren't you the one who wants to control what kind of games people try to make? LOL Wow..projecting.

    Or are you the guy who decides who "presents themselves well"?

    Control issues, huh? Seems you have as much as a problem as I do but at least I don't hurt people's feelings or discourage them in the process.

    Don't like that people are making MMO's? Why not ignore them, move on. Wow, you wrote my response for me! :)

    Guess we have both said all we need to say on this subject. ;)
     
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  43. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Youd do best to ignore this crazy guy like I did.

    Idk what he said, bc I will no longer hurt my brain by clicking 'Show Ignored Content' but by your response he is projecting again, saying irrational things, and is desperate to win a virtual argument at all costs.

    He told me I was a different person saying different things, despite me proving I never said those things. Turned me into a strawman he could fight, because he lost to the real me.
    Heck he is conspiracy-level nuts, thinking I am other posters who are against him.


    Now he says YOU are controlling, when you are telling people to be free... He is trying so hard to prove to HIMSELF he wasnt wrong to say something wrong.

    Heck, he even told me I spent too much time posting, like it was bad to waste my time arguing with him. Projecting much? LoL... he even admitted he is wasting his time too, but kept posting and then posted long after I ignored him.

    He literally has the attitude of someone who sa ys "You shouldnt do that. I mean, im doing that too, but its okay if I do it because im awesome. You shouldnt do it bc you suck. Nananananana!"

    I think this guy just wants to join the bandwagon of ignorance and mean-spirited attitudes, but he needs to rationalize it so he is a good person by doing so. This would atleast explain why he warps each of us into strawmen, refuses to end an argument that he lost long ago, and then insists on making points no one disagrees with- all while acting like we all disagree.

    Trolls should be ignored. He is just trying to waste your time. Time which, according to him, you should not waste but it's okay of he wastes it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
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  44. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Id also like to add that this is so unfair to Teila.

    Kuroato refuses to even read her posts. She had an entire post exclusively explaining why she cares. It was very in depth with alot of heart.

    Next post, Kuroato asks "Why do you care?" As if that question was never answered.

    I know, hell I EXPECT no one to read my posts (especially the arguer). I was not surprised when Korato clearly didnt even try to read my replies.

    But when I see him do it to someone else? Fills me with righteous anger. How dare he ask "why do you care?" Directly after a post which goes into great detail as to why she cares!!!!

    Kuroato is posting without even reading. A one-sided converasation. That is unfair to everyone involved, and EXTREMELY DISRESPECTFUL.

    At least we read your drivel and suffered brain damage because of it. The least you can do is read theirs.
     
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  45. Teila

    Teila

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    You are right, Carter. I should have given up long time ago but was bored, sitting here waiting for stuff to load. :)

    Thanks for the support. I should have ended it a while ago. But I am glad I had a chance to say how I feel about this subject. I guess there really isn't anymore to say, at least not on this thread. :)
     
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  46. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Welcome to my world, hahahhaha.

    I am very glad you said it all actually. Not only to help defend all the people like the OP, but also to fight back against the trolls of the internet. I really, truly wish the internet was a friendly, happy place of positive commentary. It also made me feel great to know I am not alone in thinking like this. I really appreciate that (which is why it pissed me off so much when he dared to ask "Why do you care?" Ergh!)
     
  47. K-z3

    K-z3

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    CarterG81 aka Scarecrow / Pumpkin Head, and his trusty side-kick Super Teila... Together they are the MMO Indie Defenders! Beware all who dare post anything slightly negative sounding in response to yet another "I want to make an MMO with zero experience" Thread! Beware all! ^_^

    Meet you both on the next MMO Indie (battle ground) thread! LOL!
     
  48. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    I agree with your argument that you are allowed to you opinion, and that no, you don't have to be supportive of the contents of MMO threads.

    However read what you just wrote - you're being a dick.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  49. K-z3

    K-z3

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    well npsf3000 your entitled to your opinion of me, but when all your trying to do is share your opinion in the way you so choose to share with the OP and all hell breaks loose after because you had an opinion, or how you choose to present that and other people derail the thread into a debate with me about what i choose to share... then it's kind of hard for things to not end up this way... I could have very well said my piece... and moved on, but instead the MMO Defenders decided to engage my comment directly rather than just focus on sharing their piece with the OP and this could have ended or never started a long time ago...

    All an all it's a childish debate started by Carter who didn't like what I had to say... and he again did it on another thread telling someone they are ignorant all the while not even providing a solution to the OP Ibzy in that thread. So MMO Defenders are more focused on starting silly debates about difference of opinions than they are focused on just simply supporting the OP by sharing their pieace and ignore people like me if they don't like what I have to share... we all are not going to see eye to eye it's simple... doesn't mean anyone is absolutely right or wrong, just different. The Defenders are more focused on trying to convince me of what i'm doing wrong, and how I should be replying to threads according to their standards of what they call supporting newbie indies trying to make MMOs. News Flash... everyone has a right to their opinion... and show their support in different ways....
     
  50. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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