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Unity mmorpg Multiplayer game

Discussion in 'Connected Games' started by MayhemMaker, Nov 19, 2014.

  1. MayhemMaker

    MayhemMaker

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    Me and my small team are working on an mmorpg game that was originally planned for singleplayer, but now we want to have it multiplayer where 100s of people can be on a single map and such. How do I create a multiplayer game or convert a single player game into a multiplayer one where people can login through the titlescreen with a user/password and it will respawn them from where they were last with all their skills, etc. Does anyone know of a tutorial that I can use for this?
    Thanks in advance
     
  2. PictonicStudio

    PictonicStudio

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    It takes hundreds of thousands of hours to create an MMO. Please for your own sake, please do not create an MMO. Create something your team can handle, it is way more complex than you can possibly imagine.
     
  3. MayhemMaker

    MayhemMaker

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    So It is not possible to make the single player game multiplayer?
     
  4. Glader

    Glader

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    Just logging into an account for an mmo serverside should be several thousand lines that include;
    • a forward facing entry point to the collective serverside
    • Proper authentication of remote endpoint for the client's connection; you don't want your client's connection to somehow connect to something other than your server and pass such sensitive information to that party.
    • n many multithreaded authentication servers/services that sit behind that forward facing point and have authentication requests routed to them. The value of n should be decided at runtime dynamically by the current load of logins being experienced. Using well made hashing algorithms for passwords will require relatively large and blocking computation so it's likely more needed than it initially seems.
    • Proper authentication for connecting authentication servers to the forward facing entry point. You don't want parties to establish themselves as an authentication service when they are very much not so.
    • A method of encryption for which only authentication servers/services should be capable of decrypting. Whether or not they share a key is up to you. You need to protect your clients to the full extent of data privacy laws. I'd recommend RSA. Neat implementation of it in .Net.
    • A database.
    • Some way to securely connect to the database from your authentication servers.
    All this completely ignores the requirement of needing a decent foundation of code to even begin to implement those features. Meaning your highest level code shouldn't be you using a binarywrite to write bytes to a socket. Recommendation is to use existing libraries. If you're going to write an MMO. You'll want absolutely the industry best, whatever the hell that is, otherwise you will be mired in unexpected issues with no fix from anyone other than yourself. Be prepare to pay for licensing and support from said company.

    Once you do that all you have the first step down to your mmo down. Authenticating a connection request to your mmo. Now you'll want to go back and protect yourself from your own code; you will have potential DDoS/DoS attacks at the application layer, trust me. You can address them as you implement the above features, that'd probably be best.

    Edit: Or you could write your own custom libraries, as many major MMO projects have in the past, but that may set you back a couple months.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
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  5. MayhemMaker

    MayhemMaker

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    Ok thanks, do you know of any tutorials for this that may aid us? Or am I going to have to spend hours figuring this login system out xD
     
  6. Glader

    Glader

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    An mmorpg cannot be written with tutorials. There are things you could read individually about each piece I mentioned and there is likely someone out there who has compiled all of this into a single long guide.

    You're best off using google and studying these topics and skimming other people's implementations of these things. I can't imagine there is a singular resource to point you to for writing an mmorpg.

    The only thing that comes to mind is CJR's Photon Server mmorpg framework on Youtube. You could study some of his code, or others, to get an idea on how to write an mmo. He is an incredibly competent programmer so his videos may serve well as a resource.
     
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  7. MayhemMaker

    MayhemMaker

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    Ok thanks, I think my problem may have been solved!
     
  8. Dabeh

    Dabeh

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    I second this recommendation.
     
  9. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    It's taken me over 1 year to properly develop (still in progress) a (MOBA) multiplayer game that hosts 6 players (3 vs 3) in a single game session... and you want to develop a MMORPG with 100's of players with a small indie team? I'm sorry to crush you dream but it's not going to happen. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just being realistic. Try creating a small Multiplayer Game first before venturing off into an MMORPG. Small Multiplayer game is possible and realistic for a small indie team using Unity Networking, Photon, and maybe some other Unity Assets that make Multiplayer possible and easier to achieve, but MMORPG, na...
     
  10. jtadeo1

    jtadeo1

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    I originally created my multi-player using Unity's own networking. Then I switched over to Photon. Both are great ways to learn networking. In the new year (soon soon), I plan on taking a look at Bolt. I have few tutorials that I'd like to write for Photon but not really sure if people really need them. It seems, everyone is figuring it out quite well. Photon really simplified the process with PUN.
     
  11. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    You people... lol MMOs ARE extremely hard however with technology out there these days to do it it's becoming increasingly possible for a Small team to Develop MMOs. Just keep at it. Never give up. and Know that it will take a while to do but that is most certainly possible.
     
  12. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Although there are some good answers here: Sometimes I honestly wonder if the people who post here even know what it means to develop a game. At the very least, what it takes to make a MMO.

    I worked on a MMORPG towards the end of the project, when the game was about to be finished. It was done entirely by two programmers, using placeholder art. (They hired me once it was nearing the end of beta, to redo the artwork.)

    Most seem to just regurgitate what they hear other people say, without any knowledge as to why they are idiots who have no idea what they're talking about.

    • Developing an MMO is super easy. It takes no more than four hours.

    • The minimum number of people required to make an MMO is one, as demonstrated by LOVE, a released MMO developed entirely by Eskil Steenberg. To see LOVE in action, check out this youtube video.

    Should we just ignore all the MMORPG's made by small indie teams or lone wolf devs?

    • Tibia was wrote with only 4 developers (and one of them was only working in the website) as a student project.
    The list goes on and on.

    Sources: 1 & 2

    People say making a MMO is very hard. You know what is ALSO very hard? Making ANY video game.

    MMORPG's are just video games capable of having a lot of users connected at once. Not a big deal. Hell, even some AAA MMO's don't even connect you to all that many users at once. The scope of some servers is small (they just have lots of servers) and each "zone" has even fewer, and each person in a playable area is even smaller. Even AAA MMO's are uncommon to have tons of players together at once. If it weren't for raids, some would be nothing more than multiplayer games with a huge chat room. In fact, a huge chunk of MMO's during a certain era used instancing, which was limited to something like 100 users at once before a new instance was formed. So 100 users could be in a zone before being separated in a new instance. These zones could be huge, so performance wasn't a big deal most of the time. (Time to remember people gong into populated trade areas in capital cities and going "LLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGG!!!!"

    It begs to question what an MMO even is.
    Even the very definition of MMO is vague and all-inclusive. I've seen some amazing DAoC battles with hundreds of users. Stuff like that is very interesting. However, I've also seen MMO's where 99% of the time you play with <6 other players.

    The real question a developer should ask themselves, is "What is a MMO? Why? How does that effect the game? Do I even need it to be a MMO or would MO or M suffice?"

    A MMORPG is a video game, and a video game is whatever you make of it. A singleplayer game can have so much content that it takes 10 years to develop, and a MMORPG can take four hours to develop. What matters is what the video game is like, its content, its systems.

    The reason you can't just remake WoW in a month, isn't because it is a MMORPG. It is because it has tons of content which took millions of dollars to develop. Just the same as any and all AAA video games which take loads of money to create content for. Yes, the networking is more work than simple multiplayer or singleplayer (no multiplayer). It still isn't an impossible task like a bunch of know-nothings make it out to be. Especially these days...

    It's important to note that MMORPG != WoW.
    WoW is just one of thousands of MMO's.
    Even so, I've seen small teams tackle projects not too far off from Vanilla WoW.
    It also depends on the size of your team. "Small" can mean anywhere from 1 to 30+ people. All you truly need are the most important ones (at least at first). Programmers & Content Authors (Artists, Writers, etc.) If even that (the game doesn't actually need art to be a game.)

    It's not this impossible task. Especially if you have a small team of talented individuals who are capable of making a video game. Just like with any project, you have to balance your resources and design around your capabilities and limitations. That is always true. Doesn't matter if it's a MMORPG or Text Based Singleplayer game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
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  13. CarterG81

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    You're not being realistic.

    In fact, what you are saying is contrary to the reality we live in. That is the OPPOSITE of realistic.

    The reality where tons of developers (sizes of 1-2, up to 8+) have not only made their MMO's, but have been successful with them. This includes developers who were successful long before tools like Unity or Hero Engine were ever created.

    If any of you wish to cite as an argument, "Yea, but how many MMO developers actually finish their game?" I will simply point you to statistics which ask, "How many DEVELOPERS actually finish their game?" and maybe we can get some good data out of it- whether or not a MMO increases or decreases your team's success of completion. For all we know, MMO teams may be MORE likely, not less likely, to succeed. Who knows until you compile the data.
     
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  14. CarterG81

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    There are tons of ways you can start. From just going full throttle and learning networking first, to developing a MUD using a book which teaches you how to develop a MUD.

    Honestly, it depends on what you want, where you're okay with starting, if you are okay with starting smaller first (and making your original project a sequel perhaps), 2D, 3D, if you prefer books, tutorials, videos. If you want to make-as-you-learn, or if you'd rather develop competence FIRST, unrelated to game dev, before developing the game.

    No doubt, it will take a ton of learning, unless you already know a lot about this stuff.

    You can always learn from other developers as to changing your game's design or the "steps" to make a MMO from an earlier (smaller, released) version. For example, the developers of Life is Feudal have started out releasing an early access for a singleplayer/multiplayer version of their MMO. Using those funds, they will finish Life is Feudal: Your Own, and go on to make it a MMO.

    I myself started with a MMO project, and although that project is paused, I have thought of transforming it into a multiplayer or even a singleplayer game. One in which may become MMO later, if the funds allow for it. Even if you go singleplayer, you can still think as to whether or not you wish to develop the game with multiplayer in the future or not. It would be a bit more work, but you can develop a singleplayer game in a multiplayer-way, to allow for future expansion of multiplayer. (Not sure if this is a practical idea or not. I've just heard people mention it as theory.) This is (theoretically) easier to do than making a singleplayer game, then adding in multiplayer. (Which means basically recreating the entire game.)

    My biggest advice, is this: What makes your MMO different from other MMO's? If the answer is nothing innovative, then why should you make it MMO? So people can have more of the same crap? If it's innovative, what makes it innovative? Can you capitalize on the innovation through a singleplayer, CoOp, multiplayer, or player-hosted multiplayer experience? Can you separate the MMO from the game itself? (Sort of like browser + game combo games do, or LoL matchmaking). Then later, if successful, transform it into MMO?

    Look at Shrouds of the Avatar. It is a Single Player, SinglePlayer Online, COOP, Multiplayer, MMO, game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
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  15. Dabeh

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    I'd like to take a minute to thank @CarterG81 for his post. Seriously, that's how it is guys.
     
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  16. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    Carter, chances are most people on the Unity threads who are asking about how to create an MMORPG, they are thinking 3D, lots of content, and much more higher quality than most of the MMORPGs you mentioned. Sure maybe a 2D, or extremely low poly, low graphic quality MMO is possible in a short time, but i'm almost certain most of the threads on the Unity forum regarding someone wanting to make an MMORPG is not looking to create something with placeholder graphics. So from that perspective chances are the project will never be completed because most of the users here asking about how to create MMORPGs are newbie developers being way too ambitious with no clue of what they are up against. Why not go through all the Unity MMORPG threads and show us how many of those people actually produced anything.
     
  17. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    @CarterG81 and since you are very passionate about the subject, why not develop an Unity Asset that helps people create MMORPGs. Lets put all that Passion to good use... and show us all how easy it really is by developing an MMORPG Template. ^_^
     
  18. JamesPro

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    I'm doing exactly that... I've got a Framework called UniVerse which is a Multiplayer Framework built on top of Lidgren. It allows you to quickly develop your own Servers and Client and uses Python for external Scripting. Servers can be built using a Basic Console App. or using Unity3D to simulate Zones. I will also be releasing a full Kit that will allow you to add your own Content and do the Scripting but you won't need to Program much of anything.
     
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  19. CarterG81

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    If that is the case, why tell them "No it is impossible"? Wouldn't it be much better to instead say, "If you have practical goals for how much content and a realistic idea for the quality of your MMO, then sure- it's definitely possible."?

    Then add all the people who DID accomplish it, emphasizing the scope of their MMO and the qualifications that had at the start of the project as well as how long the project took.

    I will, if you go through all the threads about all other genre of games (non-mmo's) and show us how many of those people actually produced anything.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
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  20. CarterG81

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    I am not passionate about the subject. Although I am very passionate about learning and game development as a whole.
    There is a difference between experience and knowledge about the subject combined with a passion to educate/inform others...and passion for the subject itself.

    I mean, I guess I might be somewhat passionate about it? Depends on your definition. I'm just not anymore passionate about it than anything else- any other subject- and there are certainly things I am significantly more passionate about. So much so, I think it's legit to say I'm passionate about those things, not at all this.

    I just want people to know the truth, or at least my perception of it. Otherwise, I could care less what they do.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
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  21. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    you do realize that the original poster has yet to return to this thread to even reply with at least a thank you for all of your time spent sharing the information you did right? proves my point about the kind of people who show up on the forum asking about how to create MMORPGs and disappear... they all want quick solutions so that's why I respond the way I do, and you will see very similar responses on other threads to the same kind of people asking for a single click solution to create MMORPGs. For people like this... yes MMORPGs are impossible for them...

    So i may be abit off in stating that MMORPGs are impossible by indie teams, so your right... but it really depends on what kind of quality MMORPG we are talking about here, and as mentioned above i'm pretty sure most of these people asking how to create MMORPGs are not looking to re-create "Realm of Mad God" 2D, Pixel MMORPGs.
     
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  22. CarterG81

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    The great thing about the internet is that other people besides the OP can read my answer and learn from it.

    I also don't post for thanks. In fact, I've actually posted lengthy tutorials on how to do things (like modify a video game's assets) and instead of thanks, I actually have come to expect criticism, insults, and recently being stalked/harassed by a creeper. All because I posted a tutorial to help people. So yea, I don't do it for the thanks.

    Also, I never regret trying to teach others and further the education of this world. Even if 9 times out of 10 no one learns anything, it's still worth it for that 1.

    Besides, tons of people read this stuff.

    Views:
    608
    Of those 608, the likelihood that ONE person read my advice and took it to heart, is extremely high. Also, even if they already know this stuff- it is stress relieving and helps reduce frustration that other people know it too.

    A lot of good comes from being a nice, informative person.

    In fact, across the internet I post lengthy things and sometimes in depth tutorials. Why? Maybe I'm bored. Maybe I'm nice. Maybe I'm a self-centered attention seeking whore. Who knows. However, many people enjoy reading some of my posts, even if others dislike them or never take the time to even skim them.

    Very little comes from posting brief lies which only seek to discourage children. What is the point in telling a kid who will never make a game, that a MMO is impossible for them? It's not only a lie, but needlessly negative. I live by a philosophy of encouragement to everyone, except those who are jerks- then I say other things.
     
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  23. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    Well maybe you should start a youtube channel or something and get paid for sharing information by turning on Google YouTube Ads. At least this way you'll get paid for everyone of your haters that watch your tutorials or guides lol...

    Anyhow, I wasn't 100% negative as I actually suggested that the OP should try to focus on Building a Smaller Scaled Multiplayer Game... if you have to ask "how do I create an MMORPG", chances are you have no experience with even making a simple Multiplayer Game, as if you at least tried to do that first then you would actually already have a foundation for how to build an MMORPG. How does one go from Single Player Game to MMORPG showing no experience in Network Coding period? That's further why I say it's impossible, especially if they are not even going to try something on a smaller scale first to gain the experience needed to actually build an MMORPG.

    I personally have a dream to build an MMO Game myself... but because I know that I would be aiming for AAA Quality... I'm not going to begin building an MMO with no experience. Now with my given experience in the past year working on this MOBA game, I have a much better idea of what kind of issues I'm going to face and what resources I will need when approaching Design and Development of an MMO Game.

    One needs to be able to properly build a small scaled Multiplayer Game first, have a foundation in networked game development before jumping into an MMO. I'm glad to see you encourage others to build an MMO, but if they don't even show that they have a foundation in network game development how in the heck are they going to build an MMO?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
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  24. CarterG81

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    lmao, that's some great advice actually. Haters gonna get me paid! :p

    Sorry, I probably forgot which post was yours when I was responding. So much information and data in my head. So much to read and remember, lol. Oops.

    The rest sounds good. Keep up the good work!
     
  25. poorsport

    poorsport

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    @CarterG81 thanks for your posts and insight. I took the Photon Cloud Vikings demo last week and created the foundations for a MMO that has NPCs that move and interact with networked players. Everything works and sycs up great so far. It took a bit of trial and error but in reality I put in less than 20 man hours into getting the network stuff down in my game and I'm fairly new to Unity.

    I plan to make levels instance based in order to reduce the need for complex networking hardware and software. I'll start with Photon Cloud and only upgrade if needed.

    As you mentioned, it's just writing code and figuring stuff out and being persistent. Once the network stuff is figured out, at that point you are just writing a game like you would a single player one. How great your story is and quality of assets and gameplay are all issues any type of game will face.

    Of course a month from now I could be a failure and lamenting about how I underestimated things, but all things can be solved by persistence - in development and in life in general. So, the response should never be no.
     
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  26. CarterG81

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    Thanks for going forward, and success or fail, I really hope you come back to tell us in this thread how it all went.

    One important thing to keep in perspective, is how you said

    This applies 100% to all video games. I am pretty sure it's something like >90% (maybe even >99%) of developers who say "It took a long longer to do than we thought." or "It was a lot harder than we thought" or "We underestimated the time it would take to..." This is even true of AAA (or at least AA) devs! So that's nice to remember.

    So if you didn't underestimate things, I'd be very surprised.

    Also, that is incredibly impressive that it only took you 20 man hours into getting all that setup, with NPC's interacting with players and everything. I can definitely see how Unity + Asset Store can help to speed up development of games that use that stuff. (Although part of me still wonders how long it would take to do the same thing, but in C++ + some library. Hahahha, I'm crazy to even want to try & see.)
     
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  27. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    Photon Cloud isn't the best for MMOs. Photon Cloud everything is done Client side which leaves plenty of room for Players to hack the Client and cheat. If your going to use Photon I would go with Photon Server which you host on your own Hardware. You can do all of the important stuff Server Side and leave less important things on the Client. Only problem I personally have and many others have with Photon Server is that you have to buy a License per Physical Server which gets really expensive if your spreading your world out over multiple Server Hardware.
     
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  28. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    I've done it with C++ using Ogre3D, RakNet, CEGUI, and a bunch of other Libraries. Took me a few months but I had something working. I was able to design the world using the Orgitor Editor. The World got loaded on the Server. The Server handled streaming all objects, mobs, players to the Client. and the Client handled Terrain Paging. I was using ICE (Internet Communication Engine) which had been designed for MMOs and had been tested with 10,000 Concurrently Connected Users. I never got to a point where I was able to stress test my server and Client to see how many it could actually support though.

    http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61422&hilit=ICEWorlds

    That was several Years ago... I'm a MUCH better Programmer now then I was back then. (Atleast with C# I am)
     
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  29. DiscussedTree

    DiscussedTree

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    Thank you @CarterG81

    I am learning game development only because my end goal is to create an MMORPG. Of course I will start with 2D games and then 3D, Local Multiplayer and finally online multiplayer.

    But from the last few months whenever a I saw a post where someone asked "I want to make an MMORPG" the answers were along the lines "It is impossible"

    On the reddit learnprogramming IRC someone asked me which games I want to make, I said "2d singleplayer games, then 3d singleplayer, then local multiplayer, online multiplayer and then an MMORPG.

    Everyone on the chat responded "Making an MMORPG is impossible"

    So during the last few days I was losing motivation. I mean I came into this because I wanted to make an MMORPG, and now they say it is impossible?

    Thank you for your posts, they have lifted my spirit and now I am again at the same motivation levels as I was when I started. :)

    Thank you :)
     
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  30. CarterG81

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    You're most certainly welcome :)

    It took me years to learn, but this is very important: >90% of people online are complete idiots who regurgitate rumors and myths they hear. Idk why, but one guess is that they have no real experience, their experience is limited, or their experience is real but they struggle and have great difficulty with even small projects.

    Even those with experience, there is a high degree of incompetence, fear, misinformation, or just plain stupidity. I've even read people with significant tenure as software programmers, say some of the most irrational or exaggerated things (which then mislead new users). It's just amazing sometimes.

    The hardest part about being self-taught, is realizing who that 90% are, and who the minority are. You don't know until you know- and that sucks! Those few people who are legitimately smart, good teachers? They are almost always the ones who author books and write tutorials. That is why it is a great idea to read books and good sets of tutorials (not single tutorials which will leave you hanging, but SETS of tutorials. Almost like a short book. Awesome people like GameFromScratch.com or XNA GPA ).

    The people who have never written a tutorial in their life, yet insist on being so smart in their comments- you should be wary of. In chats and forums, you will run into all types of idiots- and it's even harder to tell if they are pseudo-intellectuals, legitimately talented, or totally ignorant. Also remember that just because a user is popular, doesn't mean they are smart. Idiots who believe common myths will tend to promote better educated idiots who share their irrational perspectives. A better educated idiot is still an idiot. Like those PhD's who appear on Fox News to perpetuate misinformation with pseudo-science.

    Be very wary of comment websites, chats, and forums. Stick to books & tutorials if you can.

    If you must venture out into the internet community - always keep in perspective the general rule that "The majority are probably idiots." If the opinion is popular, you should immediately be skeptical. This applies to ALL things, not just game dev. Any subject in existence. The internet is like Yahoo Answers, but hidden under a guise of higher education. (Yahoo Answers is often obvious in its ignorance. Yet all websites will be close in quality to Yahoo Answers; They just won't be so apparent. It will be more subtle, but the idiots are still there.) If you don't believe me, just check any comment section- those same people who post there are inevitably the ones who also post on any popular website such as StackExchange, Reddit, Popular Forums, etc. On those sites, they are just better educated on some subjects- but still the same crazy perspectives on things.

    Also, always try to find evidence over opinion. If people are saying "MMORPG is impossible!" then check if anyone else has ever released a MMORPG. Any indie team? Any small team? Any solo dev? If the answer is yes, then research them as much as you can to find out how they did it. See if it makes sense that you could too. So if you wanted to know if you should get a network programmer, try to find out if other small indie teams had a programmer exclusively for the networking - or if one guy did it all or two guys did it together / whatever. Also there is a very high chance any solo dev of any major project will have an interview or at minimum a brief review with statements as to the difficulty/enormity of the task.

    Obviously if many people have released MMORPG's, even solo devs, then it is certainly NOT impossible. This is how I found out so many people have no idea what they're talking about, and it quickly got me to research everything people say- which led me to find out even more that people seem to have no clue. Doesn't matter where you visit, it's almost always true.

    I also believe in asking the right questions. Don't ask "Can I make a MMORPG?" because you KNOW that will create irrational Group Think and invoke the typical mob mentality. You already know their answer: "HE SAID MMORPG, SO WE MUST REGURGITATE WHAT WE HEAR CONSTANTLY!"
    Instead, ask a question which purposefully distracts them from jumping to their go-to idiocy. Fool them into being smart. Something like avoiding saying MMORPG entirely. This has been successful for me getting answers to common questions- and the results were entirely different than normal simply because I didn't invoke their insane biases. I was shocked how much better the answers were if you avoided hitting their trigger phrases.

    Instead of "Can I make a MMORPG?" ask "How many man-hours does it take to add multiplayer networking to a project?", maybe with details as to it being real time or turn based. The title should never invoke their irrational thought processes- because sometimes people don't even read the text they just read the title. You might even be able to get away with the exact same question with a non-invoking title.
    Anyway, in that less-provoking title/question, slip in a secondary question "Also, how many additional man-hours would it increase if it required thousands of users connected at once?" You just asked the exact same question, but fooled them into answering it correctly. More than likely if they answer your question, the idiots who give vague/lazy answers won't give you an answer to your second question (and are rightfully ignored) and those who are legit will try to answer both questions. It's a win-win for everyone. (Those fools! hahahahaha!)

    Although you're still not guaranteed a good answer, it's better than nothing. Framing the way we say things is really important. Especially when people are irrational, fanboys, or jump to common stances. And on the internet, you find that in droves! That is why I often get in trouble for using strong language like "most people are idiots!" instead of what I should say (if I didn't want to hear their QQ/NerdRage), "Most people are [insert a polite way of calling them misinformed".
     
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  31. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    Yes you are right anything is possible... so I am wrong to say MMORPG is not possible, but I do say impossible for those who do not take the right approach to learning what it takes to develop a good MMORPG by at least starting with a small multiplayer game first. I'm sure anyone can copy paste, slap together S***ty code or use some Unity Assets and call their project an MMORPG! but will this truly be able to hold up to 100 players in a single instance, with NPCs, Quests, and all kinds of other dynamic things happening at the same time? It's impossible for those who think that Quality 3D MMORPGs are easy to create and they want to jump right into it with no experience what so ever in developing a multiplayer games to start.

    My game for example Heroes of Rune happens to be a Third Person / Open World-ish / No Lanes MOBA / RPG style game. This game has been in development for about 1 year now, and we have yet to fully tackle all of the Networking, Performance Issues that are present with a small game world hosting 6 Players per Instance with up to 32+ NPCs roaming around the world. You have your normal game optimization such as mesh baking, and culling to deal, but there is a whole other layer of optimization required for networked games such as Interest Management for example. You can have all the best Optimization done like you would for an offline single player game, but with networking all of that doesn't matter if you don't know how to properly optimize your network code. Which results in horrible lag, disconnects, and lots of other weird stuff that can happen that you wouldn't expect.

    In the end with an MMO you are trying to build a living breathing dynamic world that changes depending on what the player does, how they effect the environment for their own experience and the experience of others. To nail this down correctly, and be able to call your MMORPG a Quality Stable, well Performing Game is Hard... and Yes I will say it again IMPOSSIBLE if your just looking for a shortcut, or easy way to create such a world that maintains good quality gaming experience.

    So keep going whoever wants to create MMORPGs no problem... i want to create one too... but if I can't successfully develop a small multiplayer game, what makes me think I can take on an MMORPG? start small... make mistakes... learn... grow... and eventually it will be possible! but there are no shortcuts... that's all i have been trying to get at.

    even the developer of Sherwood (Browser MMORPG) said in an article that all of his other small multiplayer, social games served as the foundation and helped him learn what he needed to learn to then apply it to an MMORPG. So need to be successful at developing something smaller first, then build your way up to an MMO after getting the experience needed from previous projects. You can't just jump into an MMO without the experience... but somehow some people think they can... so for those i will always say impossible! especially if your aiming for quality!
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  32. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    waiting for you to start your YouTube Channel! It might be easier and more profitable to stream something than write lol! i'm sure then you can just link people back to your Video's about everything you have to share... as i'm sure this is going to be a re-occurring topic of discussion for years to come. ^_^
     
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  33. DiscussedTree

    DiscussedTree

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    I'm perplexed as to why you didn't say that in your first post in this thread. In your first post you're saying:



    When I read that I became really sad, I mean I started learning programming and how to make games because my end goal was to make an MMORPG and now everyone even on the Unity forums is saying that is impossible.

    I mean seriously, you could've said what you said now ( "take the right approach to learning how to develop a good MMORPG by starting with a small multiplayer game first" ) instead of "MMORPG is not possible or realistic for a small indie team"

    Those two lines are very different in meaning (almost exact opposites of each other).

    Please keep that in mind from now on. :)

    I'm not criticizing you, just making you aware of the fact that you (probably not intentionally) misinformed people with your first post. Just saying this so that you don't make the same mistake sometime again.

    We're all learning ;)
     
  34. Glader

    Glader

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    Someone who is capable of writing an MMORPG isn't going to ask if they're able to or if it's possible in general. They may ask how difficult a certain aspect is but I don't think they'd go on a forum and ask if they can write an MMO. So by others on the forum responding that it is impossible is justifiable as, if they asked, it's very likely not possible for them to write it. Whether or not in the future, after learning something, they're able to is irrelevant I think.
     
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  35. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    You can be an experienced programmer who has never dealt with networking. There are a lot of different areas of software programming.

    Also, this is a silly statement. I've seen programmers with years of tenure (7+) asking about game dev like a total newbie. Reading the same books are newbies. Asking the same questions.

    So yea, someone who is capable can DEFINITELY be competent to do it once they 'get it'.
    Game Programming isn't the same as [insert software] Programming. There are concepts you have to learn.

    Networking Programming (not sure if it's called something else?) is the same way. Doesn't mean an experienced programmer can't easily comprehend / quickly learn and then do - after researching (which often can result in asking 'newbie' questions).
     
  36. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    Sure they are.

    The desire to create a MMO is a first indication of capability, even if the knowledge and skills in development still need to be developed.
     
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  37. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    Well that's why I am correcting myself now in that last post lol... yes your right i should have added all of how i really meant it! Impossible, under certain conditions... in this case i think i was addressing the original poster who wants to go from a single player game to 100 Players in Single Instance MMO! That's a huge leap for someone with no networking experience that needs to ask how to make their single player game into an MMO. If they just started out doing small networking say with 4 players coop vs AI or something, they wouldn't even have to ask how to make an MMO, they would already know it's possible and like @Glader mentions, they would ask how difficult this or that part is... not "How do I make an MMO"

    it's like someone strapping on a snowboard for the first time and heading straight for a black diamond (expert) slopes with no clue how to keep your balance or break properly! your heading for an epic failure that might cost you an arm or a leg literally! but apply this snowboarding analogy to a developer heading for an MMO with zero experience in networking... yea it's impossible, your gona fall hard, flat on your face.
     
  38. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    You NEVER Fail... You just learn ways on how NOT to do it... As long as you pick your self back up and start in again doing it a different way... Eventually you will succeed.
     
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  39. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    that is the key to success for sure, get back up and start again... but trust me there are many people who are not so serious about putting in the work required, and just want a shortcut to everything in life.
     
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  40. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Not one for hijacking threads, but Appears to have the attention of the right people and my question is very related.

    Firstly though - thanks to CarterG81 for his words of encouragement. I know how much work and effort and time is required to make even the most basic of MMOs, and have seen so many threads (along with hopes and dreams) killed instantly with the negative comments of "you wont do it. give up now", but I am still going for it.

    I have a basic structure in place now which works with the Unity Networking/Master Server but this requires a user to start the game before anyone else can join (I also don't have logins and saved characters yet, but I have dealt with this on other games so imagine it will be a similar solution). I want the ability to have the game already running and players to be able to join - what is the best solution Unity developers have found for this? As we are a very small team doing this in spare time (for the moment) we cant exactly cough up £1500+ for a solution.

    Does anybody have experience with gamagoo.com? Are there other options that are better suited?

    Thanks
     
  41. Muber Gaming

    Muber Gaming

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    gamagoo.com?

    what is their service? mmo networking engine etc???

    sorry to ask is just atm their site seems to be down from my end.
    what exactly is it they do?
     
  42. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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  43. Muber Gaming

    Muber Gaming

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    thanks,
    well i personally do not like cloud networking services like that.
    too much restriction, is like photon cloud, no authoritative server.
    plus very limited incoming messages.
    free version is restricted to 100k incoming messages, useless.
    1 player alone can pull that much incoming messages in a few hours.

    why dont you use a self hosted mmo server networking app for unity ie: ulink, or the free open source kbengine and get yourself a vps for 10 dls per month and you wont suffer too much limitations
     
  44. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    KBEngine is a good engine. But if you use it you better know how to code in Python! Everything Server side is done using Python. uLink is cool as well though it's only good for Zoned Games. For open world games you need uPikko which isn't available at this time to Indies.
     
  45. jonmalave_

    jonmalave_

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    Ibzy, you can use Photon Server (self-hosted) instead of Photon Cloud which is Free! If you want more than 100 CCU you'll need to pay a license fee for it. That's a pretty good deal in my opinion, and probably one of the best networking solutions for Unity as Photon works very closely with Unity and has on going updates, fixes, good support etc. Since you seem to have a handle on the networking side then I would say go for it... But if you don't have a plan of how your going to pay for your dedicated servers in the near future then I don't know how you plan to build an MMO.

    I had a Dedicated Server for a Multiplayer FPS Game http://apocalypsecity.net that could handle up to 64 Players Max Connected to a Single Server Divided into 8 Players Per Instance (Game Sessions). That alone cost me about $159.00 Monthly with SoftLayer.com (one of the best Dedicated Hosting Services on the Market) just for a Xeon CPU Server w/ 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, 5GB Monthly Bandwidth, but I still ended up paying extra for an additional 5GB of Bandwidth due to over usage of bandwidth charges with just 64 Max Daily Players at the time when the Game was doing well.

    Xeon CPU Server w/ 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, 5GB Monthly Bandwidth for $159.00 was and still is about the cheapest you'll pay for a good dedicated server with zero downtime. Now this is just a Multiplayer FPS! Imagine if i was hosting an MMO with 1000 Players? I would need alot more servers, or bigger server with more resources. Which comes to (1000/64 = 15) 15 x $159.00 = $2,385 in my case. Which actually would be worth it because the game was easily making me well over $5,000 Monthly at the time, so if I needed to expand more... my profits would have covered the cost.

    Now you see, you seem to be better off than the Original Poster on this Thread who wants to Jump from Single Player to 1000 Player MMO showing no experience with Networking... While you may have the Networking Foundation to begin an MMO, the Question is are prepared to Pay upward of $1,500 Monthly Dedicated Server Hosting Costs that Comes with an MMO? I'm not even talking about Licensing Fees for the Networking Backend Solution you Choose, I'm just talking about the Dedicated Hardware and Monthly Bandwidth you'll need for an MMO.

    This is more of reasons why we say MMO's are impossible, or near impossible for Indie Teams... Yes they are possible if your Well Prepared to Deal with all the Costs, Time, and Issues that Come with Dealing with an MMO.

    So hopefully your ready... since your venturing down that path.... all the Best to you and your Team!
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  46. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    Dude, just give it up. Even hinting that it is okay to say the word "impossible" for an MMORPG just makes you look like you are in denial of reality.

    First, developing a MMORPG doesn't require a zero downtime server. Most AAA MMORPG's have very sparse uptime for the public, and for themselves need uptime only as much as they are testing. 0In fact, one doesn't even have to have much of a server, or even a dedicated one at first. As the project progresses, sure you will need all of this and more- but the further it progresses the more able you are to generate revenue to pay for the costs (server, crowdfunding, early access, etc.) because the more you have a tangible product.

    Second, in this day and age- you can find tons of ways to generate enough revenue to provide for server costs (if not pocket it yourself, since it is so cheap these days). If free shards of the most popular versions of MMORPG's can survive and host hundreds or even thousands of players- I find it hard to believe a promising indie MMO title can't do the same.

    Third, who is to say you even have to have server costs? Game developers are constantly pushing the boundaries and limitations, even re-defining the terms we are used to. Just look at Shroud of the Avatar or Life is Fuedal. They more than pay for their MMO versions by releasing their singleplayer and/or player-hosted multiplayer.

    Fourth, even if you have server costs- who is to say you must spend so much on it by purchasing a dedicated server? Your need will change as development continues.

    You know that sherwood dungeon game, made by only one dev? He is successful on ad revenue alone. Some exerpts from a 2007 interview (note that 7 years later, the game is still active):

    This is what is basically (at least from my perspective) an unknown game. What is Sherwood Dungeon? Playing it, I still don't even know. In 2007, I was a huge MMO-buff, and I never heard of this game- yet it was successful enough. People seem to know about it though, and like it enough to make it profitable. Not just server costs, but development costs.

    This all from a guy who started with nothing.

    The sole fact Gene Endrody exists, instantly makes everyone who uses the term "impossible" relative to making their own MMO, a total frothing idiot.

    "Why we say MMO's are impossible, or near impossible for Indie Teams" is just a statement from a "we" who are entirely ignorant of the reality that is Gene Endrody, Andrew & Paul Gower,
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
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  47. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    Thanks for your responses, I may have to give Photon Server a try - by self-hosted do you mean on a webserver or local machine with the network correctly set up?

    With regards to cost - a 10-50 CCU would suffice for a while as it will be primarily testing of network functionality (and game balance etc) for a good few months. If/when the game is big enough to require an upgrade to the paid for solutions, I imagine revenue would cover this (as per Carter's example).

    In slight reference to the OP - I believe their team is looking at something similar to what we considered - putting a single player, open world RPG (a la Skyrim) on a server to let players play the game with their friends, rather than making it a standard MMO in the traditional sense. (Still massively multiplayer and online, but plays like a solo game with others running around).

    Once a solution is in place and there is enough substance to show off, a thread will be posted to let people see what we're doing :)

    Thanks guys
     
  48. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    I havent looked into it in awhile, but arent there cloud services which give free hosting up to a certain CCU? Does Photon not do this service anymore?

    That makes the cost to have a server...$0? Unless I am remembering incorrectly. I remember getting tons of emails about something like that years ago.
     
  49. JamesPro

    JamesPro

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    Photon's Cloud Service has no Server backend... It basically just acts as a Message Passer. There fore everything is on the Client and could easily be hacked which wouldn't be good for business.
     
  50. Ibzy

    Ibzy

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    https://www.exitgames.com/en/OnPremise/Pricing indicates exactly as you suggest, but I'm not sure how much of this is actually cloud based? Struggling to fully understand what you get for you (zero) money being honest.

    http://www.gamooga.com/ also (as posted above) does someting similar...I think.
     
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