unity indie becomes free?

maybe you should read the rest of the conversation before being assholes.
just a thought.

 

Seriously, guys. He said he could pay $200, and he doesn't like people. Now all the other people who don't like people, but don't have $200, will be making games that overshadow his. It's more complicated that just the money situation.

 

The bottom line is that it's about the talent you bring to the game. We're all worried that other people's games will be better than what we're doing. That's why we give it 100%, everything we have, early in the morning, late at night, why we're on these forums, looking for tips, pointers, learning together how to make great gameplay.

We are hardcore. We care. We want to be the best.

Psychentist, join the club. This is our world. We work so hard cause it isn't the TOOL that will make the game great, it's the game, it's the scripter, its the artist, it's the vision.

Now we all have Unity. Let's move forward. Let's make great games.[/i]

 

i thought this conversation had been wrapped up, but apparently I was wrong.
I never said using unity was my ONLY competitive edge, now did I?
My point was that is is an excellent tool and being one of its users offered a slight edge, and THAT PARTICULAR edge is now gone by offering it for free. try building a house without a hammer. good F***ing luck with your stone age hut.
so much for a friendly community. you look at one statement, take it completely out of context and ridicule those who do not share your opinion. you'd make a great preacher.

 

My mistake.

 

Vimalakirti: Sorry about that. I wasn't directing that rant at you, only at the few who were being assholes. You're point is perfectly valid, and I agree. If people would just read the entire conversation, they would see that Chaotic Heart actually had a very compelling argument that did indeed change my position on the issue.
I just got a little bit sick of being picked apart by people who don't bother to read the whole argument. Yes, talent IS the main issue here, but the tool is also an issue. That's all I was trying to say the whole time, but people love to jump in with the mob when they see everyone else attacking someone. It's human nature, and thats why...

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people suck

 

Psych,

Let's make some great games. We all need to stay focused and stay away from negative energy. Peace to you. PM if you like.

 

Well, right now you can't 'completely' blame them, 18 pages is a bit too much of a headache. However, you are right people need to have information before jumping to conclusions and setting off the electric chair(metaphor(I think)).

 

There is certainly some competitive advantage to having Unity as compared to people struggling with OpenGL or lesser tools. At the same time, however, wider adoption of a tool also results in wider acceptance and thus more demand for products created with the tool. Flash had an advantage in bundlng deals with browser makers that Unity does not gave. But the more people developing with it means more compelling games which results in more game portals that accept unity and more players who seek out unity games.

A dramatic decrease in the cost of any resource results in growrth in demand for that resource. As the cost of the transister declined, for instance, it's use grew exponentially as they replaced more and more discreet components, ultimately resulting in the creation of the integrated circuit which used huge numbers and now days uses them by the millions.

Software has a zero marginal cost... Thus thousands of new unity developers means the tool will be used in hundreds of new ways and probably produce dozens of new viable cottage industries--plus push it towards being the next generation standard for rich Internet applications---at least in contexts where interactve 3D adds value.

 

That's basically what Chaotic Heart said.
You told me to look at both sides of the equation, neo. I think you are only looking at the "wider acceptance" side of it.
Wider acceptance is only a good thing for a while. Eventually it becomes "the same old crap".

I'm not saying Unity is crap, but look at the unreal engine. It was great when it first came out, but now you can spot it almost immediately, and there are a lot of gamers who are sick of looking at it. Its not a big stretch of the imagination to see this happening to unity as well.
It's pretty hard to sell a game made with the unreal engine these days.

This discussion is moving in circles.

 

That isn't true, it may be that way for the unreal engine but unity is way easier to work with so it mainly boils down to whether people have good assets or not.

 

Basically, what psychentist's big worry is if the available Unity content grows quicker than the expanding market for that Unity content. This will mean more competition... as more people competing for less space.

It is a valid worry... and may actually happen. Usually, though, this is not the case. Especially not in the software market. More often than not the expanding market outstrips the new content; at least for awhile.

This is really because no matter how many "talented" designers there are out there, there are always going to be more "non-talented" consumers wanting their content... and a LOT more "non-talented" people wanting to make money off of the "talented" people by selling their content.

If Unity was completely drag-n-drop... and really did come with that "Click here to create the next WoW-like MMO" button someone mentioned in another thread then this worry would be far more valid. In truth, though, even though Unity is an amazing tool; you still actually have to be "talented" to make anything with it.

All it really does is make a "talented" designer's job easier. It does not turn one of the "non-talented" into one of the "talented". {Grin} Trust me... I know. I am still waiting for that magical transformation, myself. If anyone has some spare talent laying around, I will be more than willing to take it off of your hands.

 

Thanks chaoticheart, you really cleared that up for me, I understand now .

 

Let's make the discussion less hypothetical by looking at some numbers and comparing it to concrete things.

The obvious comparison is the Flash ecosystem of portals. I think most people will agree that Flash is accessible and that there are a lot of Flash developers out there, ranging from high school students messing around in their spare time to professional Flash-only game development studios. Sure, Flash costs money, but you can deploy to the Flash player without the IDE, and students/hobbyists are just as likely to pirate the IDE anyway.

As a result, there are a lot of Flash games in the wild. Single sources of games, like Kongregate, have 20,000 games in their library. Single games can end up multiple thousands of different websites (according to Mochi, who tracks this kind of thing in their ad system). These are big numbers!

But even in this ecosystem I don't see a problem with massive amounts of poor-quality games affecting the competitive fitness of any one game. Again, let's look at some actual data:

A good friend of ours made Canabalt. It's been played several million times on his own page, a half million times on a bunch of different portals (each), and the iPhone port he launched after the Flash game took off made it into the top 50 paid apps. It is a success.

He's an experienced Flash developer, but he also made the original game in 5 days with a very carefully minimal production style. I think it's fair to say that Canabalt is not competing on production value, but rather on style and design. The tool/environment had nothing to do with its competitive edge.

That's the Flash ecosystem. I would appraise it as "crowded" but not "crippled". The fact that this ecosystem exists on an open Internet, versus say the game market in the App Store, means that content discovery is on your side.

So the real question is: How far away is Unity from the Flash market, especially now that Unity Indie has become free? Let's look at some numbers:

Kongregate has 20,465 games posted. It's hard to say how many Unity web games are out there, but I would be surprised if there are 100 games that match the average completeness of the games on Kong.

Unity was downloaded 6,000 times in the first two days after it went free. We can assume this is a heavy exponential spike, and not the rate at which it will continue, so let's say that it continues at the rate of 600/day.

Unity developers will need to produce 56 games/day to match the size of the Kongregate games library in 365 days. That means that 9% of everyone who downloads Unity must get to the point where they release a completed, I-can-actually-play-this game.

That seems highly unlikely! I'm not even sure we will see 500 Unity web games released in the next year. The risk of Unity even approaching the congestion of the Flash market seems very low. Even if Unity were to match the Flash market this year, games like Canabalt demonstrate that it doesn't even matter.

The scarcity viewpoint is a different discussion altogether, but I don't think there is a finite amount of energy available in the system (whatever system that might be--quality filtering, publisher appraisal, and so on). Worries about submission bandwidth are especially silly; thanks to Flash developers, the portals/websites that will open up to Unity already have systems in place to deal with high-volume submissions. They're pretty good at filtering things.

Rising tide floats all boats; Unity going free helps everyone here.

 

That was a great read Matthew with a point I forgot to touch on with my earlier post.

 

I hope you're right, I really do.
I for one will be keeping my guard up.
Good luck everyone.

 

While this may be true and a worry, that is part of doing game development. However I think that psychentist is thinking there are going to be a bunch of quality games produced by a bunch of people with no talent and that is not going to happen.

 

Sorry to reply to this old statement - but I just want to mention one very important aspect of Unity Technologies' philosophy that you should be aware of: It's about democratizing games development.

They are dedicated to making games development possible for ... yes - as many people as possible. And that's something they have been clear about for a little while, so it should not have been a surprise for you (ok, making Unity free was a surprise for everyone - but my point is that it's not something that's "out of their line", it perfectly fits into their concept ... only that I guess no one expected them to take it that far).

So, when getting Unity Indie was really motivated for you significantly to get a "competetive edge" you might have made a mistake because you were supporting a company that actually tries to remove this "barrier". In that line of thought, you should have probably invested into something like CryEngine or Unreal Engine - that's stuff that only few can afford. Of course, Unity Technologies still need to make their living (and it's around 50 or so people now - so think about how much money they need to get just every month only to sustain themselves). So, it's understandable that they also have a "pro-product" that will generate income for them - even though that does keep up a barrier (but please let's not start this discussion here).

The ironic thing about it is that Unity Indie was exactly along that line. If Unity Technologies wasn't about democratizing game development, they'd only have Unity Pro and sell it at a much higher price (5 digit, possibly 6 digit - in EUR). So, in the end you benefitted from them offering Unity Indie at the price at which they offered it (which many people like myself considered "almost free" all the time - not because EUR 200,00 is not a lot of money but because it's simply "almost no money at all" given the value you get for it) - just like now, even more people are benefitting from them offering Unity for free.

In an ideal world of "democratized game development" what really matters is just your creativity - which I'd find pretty cool ;-) ... but keep in mind: "creativity" is not just having ideas - it's also the capability to create something appealing from those ideas (which is where most people fail - no matter how easy it is to get the tools).

EDIT: Fixed typo ;-)

 

ryanzec said:

no no no, just the opposite.
I think a bunch of no talents are going to make a bunch of crappy games, and that will create skepticism about any game made with unity, making the good games look bad because of stereotyping.
(i.e. "I've seen unity games before, and they weren't that impressive.")
stuff like that.

 

That could be, but isn't said, about a lot of technologies. Apps and games with Flash, web sites with HTML, javascript and PHP, etc. I don't think people are going to have a stereotype for Unity. I think people understand that good games and made by good developers and not-so-good games is a result of not-so-good developers.

 

You're probably right, but I'm not accustomed to people being very understanding creatures. For example, according to "neo" my position on this makes me an "irrational lying asshole"
Wow.
:roll:
Seems like all I can do by saying this has a downside is draw fire.
Maybe I should learn to dodge bullets like our revered chosen one.

 

I think the main point here is that yes, more people have access to the tool and there *may* be more competition, but...

Most people that start making games never finish a game. It's just fact.

And of those that *may* finish a game, most wont make any money (assuming they are out to make money). Unless they are taking it as a serious business opportunity, or they make the next Indie hit.

This is true wether they are using a free tool or a paid tool. Unity just became free. Why don't you take a poll from the forum asking how many here that paid for Unity have ever finished a game? I am sure its a very small number.

So, more accessibility != more competition. Just more dreamers in the industry.

So, where does that leave you? Easy... if you are adamant about making games, and generating an income from it, then knuckle down, work hard, make an awesome game and market it. That is the only way you will succeed.

There is no one standing in your way today, that wasn't already standing in your way before Unity became free.

 

Hey, Seon, I just wanted to say good job on stunt mania and circuit defenders. I had a lot of fun with those two. I haven't played your other ones yet, but I will.

 

Thanks

I should add that I have spent the last year and a half making games from home. Just me, making and selling games. It's my families only income.

I NEVER sit considering about my competitors. Don't even know who they are. They don't effect me or my business.

Either my games are good enough to generate the income I need, or they are not. What my competitors are doing has never factored into the equation.

 

That's awesome. I hope I can do that some day.
Definitely something to brood about.
Thanks for the inspiration.

 

You must be great with unity, great job. I also hope I can do that soon. And I agree "Thanks for the inspiration."

 

The physics on Stunt Mania are just amazing.
I never thought I'd see a remote control car do a quadruple side flip LOL!

 

The funny thing is, while I never said what you quoted, by claiming I did, you make the quote true.

 

It was in a P.M. he sent me.
Though I did paraphrase, all three of those insinuations were in the message.
I will outright admit to being an asshole from time to time, but I am neither a liar, nor am I irrational.

 

It wasn't. I did say "if you would stop being an asshole you'd discover that other people aren't being assholes towards you". I said that AFTER you called me and others "assholes" publicly in this very thread. After you called me an asshole, I stopped responding to you... which I guess is why you decided to escalate with this smear. I recognize that I can't stop you from saying whatever you want, or your pathology, but I'm not interested in this drama.

 

"O that he were here to write me down an ass! But masters, remember that I am an ass: though it be not written down, yet forget not that I am an ass."
- William Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing

I thought that was a good quote. Neo, I apologize. There are reasons for my insanity which I have explained in detail privately to you. I concede that I have wronged you and shall pursue this fracas no further.

I wish peace and good fortune to everyone here.
Sorry If I have offended anyone.

 

I think you're overlooking one important detail here... uncertainty.

By paying $200 for indie, developers could at least have an expectation of what features would be denied/imposed to/upon them from release to release. For example, the issue of watermarks and splash screen has always been a bit of a thorn in some users' sides, since it puts into question the intended purpose of Unity Indie. ("Is it simply an "academic" version of Unity Pro or is it a legitimate, commercial product intended for developers to turn a profit with?" etc...)

Now though, the question is somewhat moot. Since Unity Indie is now free, who has any right to question the features of the software?

For those who paid for Indie and still depend on it, this is now a period of uncertainty. What guarantee is there that the product won't eventually become a gateway for advertising, both in the IDE and/or published output? (Or something equally invasive...)

Anyone who's familiar with the expression, "there's no such thing as a free lunch" has every reason to be unnerved by this transition. We've yet to see the full picture of the road ahead.

 

I understand what you are saying, and it is a worry even for me.

With that said, it still does not change the fact that the version of the software you paid for is still worth what you paid for it. Whether or not future free versions degrade to the point that they are not worth $200 is not relevant to the argument of whether or not the $200 you paid for THIS version was fair.

This version has none of the things we are all worried will find their way into our product. This version is still as good as it was... or better, in most cases... as when you bought it for the $200. Saying that this version of Unity is now worth less because a future Unity edition may be littered with ad-ware, crippled features, etc is equivalent to saying Windows XP is worthless because of how bad Windows Vista is.

 

Indeed. You can always save your zip file in your archives, and if you find a future version to be distasteful, you can always revert to a previous version. Theres no adware now, so you can continue to use this version and never have to worry about it.

Anyone know when they're planning to bring back the built in animation recorder? I thought they were supposed to do it with this version.

 

I doubt there will ever be adware as UT isn't the company to crapware their things.
They want people to use it and ad ware doesn't really support that.

 

Well, it is, so long as you don't need an update to the software you currently have to fix a major bug. The problem is whether or not you'd eventually be forced to go to the free version as your only option for getting the bug fix.

Part of paying for software like this is to get regular updates.

So the question is, was Unity Indie 2.5.x the end of the road for updates on the paid version, or is 2.6 still part of the license agreement? And how does that affect future updates to the software that might include any negative "surprises"?

 

Sean wrote: "Most people that start making games never finish a game. It's just fact."

That's because Unity is not usually used as a tool, but is itself a game. The game play is content creation, and a powerful social element is happening right here on these forums. This thread is up to twenty pages with no sign of slowing down.

"... The goal is to create a highly dynamic environment and community where a lot of conflict and drama can happen; if it helps to create conflict, fairness and unfairness can be used as tools to create those conflicts and add tension to the game world." said Zhan Ye, president of GameVision, quoted in a Gamasutra article: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25888

"And from a logistic point of view, the whole purpose is to try and keep people playing for a long time, so they'll start to pay..."

 

A very classy resolution to the situation on your part. No hard feelings on mine.

 

At first I was pretty shocked at the suggestion that this was a time of uncertainty for indie owners, and the idea that they might put advertising into the tool. But now I realize that having first evaluated Unity about 6 months ago, I guess I'm an "old hand".

So, I would guess much of the outcry has come from people who have less familiarity with Unity, and more specifically, Unity Technologies, than I do.

Unity Tech, more than any company in recent memory, other than Apple, is one with a consistent attitude, message and way of treating its customers.

In just six months, the way they've acted across the board has shown them to be very customer focused, classy, and trustworthy. They have advanced the product dramatically-- releasing 2.5 and 2.6 and over delivered by releasing 1.5 iPhone when 1.1 iPhone was promised. They have been consistent in providing help on these forums with people from all over the company participating. Steve Jobs (head of the only other company I'd say operates this way) doesn't even have a blog.

Finally, making Unity free is one of those bold moves that, more than any other, says they have their customers interests at heart, and that they understand who their customers are.

Can you name another professional tool that lets you create commercial works, profit from them, and doesn't require any payment at all?

The expectation that you'll be upgrading to Pro when you start making money with the tool is a reasonable one. Who wouldn't? But it is a huge leap of faith.

Major fancy features will probably appear on pro, of course. But not all of them. The new Animation system appears in regular unity 2.6 as well-- and it knocked my socks off when they demoed it.

There are no guarantees of what may happen in the future, that's true.

But there's a pretty clear philosophy and customer focus with this company.

 

I also think that psychentist has a very pessimistic outlook all a lot of things but you are not going to find very many people on these forums that have a pessimistic outlook of how UT is going to handle their existing customers as they have proven in the past to be nice a fair with existing customers.

Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread, but UT has confirmed in another thread that if you have purchased Unity Indie and do not want any of the offers the UT is providing till the end of the year, you will still be able to get the normal 199 discount on a upgrade to Unity Pro until Unity 3.0 is released like normal (and you will be able to get the Unity 2.x Indie to 3.x Pro discount when Unity 3.0 released too I believe).

 

Visual C++, Visual Basic, Visual C#, Blender, Ogre to name the first few that spring to mind. There are countless professional tools that allow you to create commercial works and don't require payment.

 

While there are free tools that let you create commercial work with no requiring payment back I think Unity is one of the most advance tools that is free for commercial use for game creation (I think that was the point neo was trying to make and if not, then that is the point I am trying to make).

 

Yes heres one http://www.3drad.com/

 

They did... Window -> Animation.

--Eric

 

From page 1:

My computer was in its place, on my desk, while I spent last week working with people in real-space, not virtual space. I'm honestly just not up for reading all 20 pages of this thread to see what's still dangling and out there as open questions to be answered. So if I may be so bold, if you have unanswered questions about our recent news I'm here now, please re-ask them again and I'll offer up my information. Pardon me if that comes off lazy but it's the truth, wading through 20 pages and trying to track everything is a mighty task that would leave me unable to do anything else for a good day or so...

 

:?
That's mostly my fault, sorry about that. I just can't shut up sometimes.

 

Don't forget the flamers.

 

Indeed. I apologize to everyone for those as well. I've had a bad week. Let's make some bad ass games, ya?

Peace to all.

 

oh my god... i started this thread with a simple announcement.. and then it became a monster of 20 pages and 300 replies.. what have i done!!?? hahahahaha

 

Well, despite me being an ass, I actually made a friend here in Chaotic Heart.
You also provided me a place to rant, and ultimately learn a lesson in humility.
So, that's 3 favors you did me. I hope I'm not the only one that benefitted.
I'm going to bed now, I have to check in to MEPS in 5 hours.
Peace!