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Unity for flightsim

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by andreas_schaerrer, May 13, 2018.

  1. andreas_schaerrer

    andreas_schaerrer

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    Hi all,

    I am evaluating engines to create a flightsim similar to the old Microprose Flightsims. Something like CAP2: http://combatairpatrol2.com/. Unity seems interesting because it would allow to code in C#. Also the huge asset store for sure has some stuff that can be helpful.
    A few questions:
    - Is there an asset that solves floating point precision problems; like an asset that shifts the origin?
    - Which asset would you recommend to create and populate a huge terrain (400km * 400km)?
    - How is performance with such huge landscapes?
    - What other assets would you recommend?
    And lastly, if you ever tried to create such a thing in unity, do you think unity is a good fit for this or would you recommend to roll your own, tailored engine (in C++ or maybe C# with monogame)?

    Thanks!

    Andi
     
  2. mgear

    mgear

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    random note,
    if you want to use real world terrains, there's multiple plugins for that, like
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/13238
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/8752

    (personally i probably wouldn't use terrain objects for huge areas.. at least until the next unity terrain upgrade)

    or look into more performant alternatives like (this one probably not out yet though)
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/wip...ne-replacement-and-extraction-toolset.448766/

    if you want to generate your own terrains, id check into
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42618
    https://www.world-machine.com/
     
  3. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Why Unity is not a good first choice for a flight sim:
    1. No out of the box large terrain system.
    2. No out of the box origin shifting system to work with large terrain system.
    You can work around these problems as illustrated by the Kerbal Space Simulator game, and presented about online (check youtube). They built their own 64 bit Newtonian gravity simulator and used Unity as the camera system.

    However you will have to do more work or buy in assets that provide these types of features.

    On the other hand you could build a smaller flight sim with a limited flying space and use Unity.

    Here's a fun little 'flight sim' I made a while ago...



    Note: Unity are working on an improved terrain system and have a great multi-threaded job system that could make for some amazing high unit count space/air battles. I hope that they will introduce a large terrain/origin shifting system as well although I have not heard anything specific on this problem area so far.
     
  4. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Seems well suited, just do your math in doubles, then convert to float. This is what kerbal space program did. If you're competent enough in C++, you're competent enough to get Unity to play ball.

    Use 1 meter = 1 unit (it'll pay off if you move to a different SRP).
     
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  5. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Yeah, considering the object density of flight sims I've seen I wouldn't expect origin shifting to cause a problem performance-wise. It does complicate the workflows of some things, like particle effects and line renderers no longer being able to work in world space (because it'll cause issues when you shift). but in a quick experiment I did my PC was happily moving the entire contents of a simulation-style scene without a performance issue.

    Also keep in mind that with a flight sim you might not need the same degree of accuracy that you would with a more localised type of game. Check out this excellent article about floating points for more information.
     
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  6. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I'm not sure you would need to do anything with floating point accuracy. Floating point accuracy only becomes an issue if you need to deal with milimetres and kilometres in the same simulation. I don't see anything like that requires that in this game, unless you are going to try build an individual parts physics simulation like KSP.

    If you treat the plane as a single physics object, and scale appropriately, you won't have an issue.
     
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  7. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Try moving a camera or flying an object out to 10k* from origin, watch as the floating point error makes the camera jiggle and z depth fighting issues appear in the scene rendering.

    Now think about flying at realistic speeds e.g. mach 1 is 340 m/s or within 29.41176470588235 seconds a jet flying at mach 1 (most fighters are faster than this) will hit the 10k limit. Now imagine a couple of jets and missiles (AIM-120 AA missile hits Mach 4 or 10k in 7.3529 seconds) and you will get some crazy rendering and physics errors.

    To give you a 400km flight space you will need to scale down by 40x so a 15.57m F35 will be 0.38925m in length. Then you have the depth rendering problems at the other end of the scale where the thin sections of the plane e.g. Tail wings will be so close together they will just start z-fighting in the rendering system.

    Kerbal Space Program gets around these problems by rendering the spacecraft/world and solar system at three separate camera systems with different scales.



    Star Citizen adapted the CryEngine to 64 bit floating point to cope with these problems.

    It's doable with Unity but not something Unity can do out of the box, check out how many big world flight sims are made with Unity.

    *It's not a hard limit the errors start creeping in the further from the origin you go, up to about 5k it's smooth as then from there on out depending on speed and model sizes things start to get jiggy.

    PS Don't take my word for it fire up Unity Throw a model and camera together and fly them out to 5k then 10k and see for yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  8. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    You're not forced to treat one unit as one meter. You can treat one unit as ten meters, a hundred meters, a thousand, etc.

    KSP tries to be more than just a basic flight simulator. It has very advanced structural physics for starters.

    Star Citizen is vaporware.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  9. andreas_schaerrer

    andreas_schaerrer

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    Thanks guys for all the replies so far! I think I will evaluate some more. Pity I was hoping unity3d had the issue solved out of the box or with an asset that one can get from the assetstore.
     
  10. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I believe that World Streamer on the Asset Store handles origin shifting. Whether it does anything you couldn't do for yourself, and whether it's otherwise a fit for your game, are things you'll have to look into.
     
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  11. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Yes, it does as mentioned near the top of the list (floating point error fix system) as well as near the middle (support for extremely big worlds). It's being kept up to date and despite the four stars rating it's still receiving good reviews.

    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/utilities/world-streamer-36486
     
  12. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Dropship Wobble.



    Apologies it's well outside the 10k range but took me a while to get the recording working.

    Not many game engines handle these scales well, even graphics hardware and API's have not really been pushing for 64 bits yet (with 64 bit precision you can have solar system scaled worlds with good precision).

    Unreal has origin shifting and larger terrain support but even with these features would it handle the speeds needed for a flight simulator.

    Have a look at how KSP did it as even with larger terrain and origin shifting you are still going to need to render your larger world through a 32 bit floating point graphics API and hardware.
     
  13. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Another way to approach your flight sim could be to have a real sized world but fly toy or micro RC aircraft.

    It could also cut down on the amount of terrain you need to use, and you don't have to worry about doing your own 64 bit physics/world/simulation.

    Could be even more fun and interesting to fly than just flying over the flat 3d plane with occasional hills of a real flight simulator.

    e.g.

     
  14. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    We already know and understand the problem. What you're failing to acknowledge (at least I would hope by now it isn't a problem with understanding the solution) is that the problem is not only a solved one but very easily solved at that.

    You basically just explained the method @Kiwasi mentioned earlier.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  15. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    So use two cameras. Its not rocket science. Its a technique that's been around forever. Its still not really an issue unless you need to run and accurate physics simulation a long way from the origin.
     
  16. Arowx

    Arowx

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    I am simply pointing out that Unity is not an Flight Simulator game engine, there are a host of problems that you need to address with bespoke setups/assets and solutions to get Unity to work as a flight simulator.

    Some of the solutions also raise more problems or limit the features you can use with Unity e.g. GI, Navigation, Physics, Particles, Trial Renderers all work well within a <10k sandbox but become unusable at larger scales, so you need to work around these issues with off the shelf assets or bespoke solutions.

    In effect like the developers of KSP you end up writing a simulation engine then using Unity as a camera and UI system.

    Or the large scale world Deserts of Karak, where they built a large RTS physics simulation system to support the 25km map scales then use Unity as a Camera UI system.


    It's not lazy we are talking an order of magnitude in the amount of work needed by the developer to get a good game playing in Unity compared to working with and within the Unity <10km sandbox limits.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  17. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Who are you pointing out these problems to? Everyone who has posted in this thread starting from now including the very person who started the thread has already acknowledged the problem. Starting with your second post your responses have only served to reiterate the problem that people are presenting solutions for.

    If you read the solutions again (I did before typing up this response) you'll notice the limitations are presented too. For the stated goal of the OP though these limitations are not important. I only have brief experience with the last Microsoft Flight Simulator but to my knowledge it had only very limited physics (the plane itself was a singular physics object).

    Only for a game with similar requirements. You seem to have this belief that everyone making an open world game has the same requirements and that's simply not true. All of the limitations you've mentioned haven't been asked about at all. We don't know if he even needs them.

    If the above aren't sufficient reasoning for you then how about an example. We have at least one developer in this very community that has made a flight simulator on par with the example he provided and they weren't held back by these limitations.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/free-android-turboprop-flight-simulator-airbus-a400m.467183/
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  18. Arowx

    Arowx

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    The solutions don't address the depth of the problems, only one or two of the symptoms of the problem.

    e.g.
    Action: Fire a missile at a target < 10km away with a trail render on it.
    Result: You see a smooth smoke trail out to a collision detection and explosion.

    Action: Fire a missile at a target > 10km away with a trial render on it.
    Result: ? Does the missile fly smoothly towards the target, does the trail render look smooth or even render at range, is the collision detected.

    All these compound problems need to be addressed by the developer, things that used to be plug and play are now sets of new problems to fix and work on.

    It's not just fix the large world problem or the camera viewing problem it's a whole set of problems that you need to solve or factor into your solution.

    For example what about sound scaling over large distances, an explosion a long way a way can still be heard but there will be an actual delay between the visible explosion and the sound effect.

    Pretty much every system in Unity is designed and developed in a 10k sandbox, therefore you need replacements for all of the systems you use in your game.

    It's like writing your own flight sim game engine within Unity and Unity ends up being used as a camera/ui system with maybe proximity physics simulation inside your flight simulator.
     
  19. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Kerbal Space Program is the goto example in Unity of a large world game it started development around 2010 with the first version out in 2011 the beta arrived in 2014 with the first actual release 1.0 in 2015.

    So we are talking about probably a 1 year development timeline by about 11 developers (see credits below),



    My point is it will be a lot of work to do a large world simulation using Unity.



    And judging from this video it looks like the 64 bit simulation system did not arrive until the 1.0 release (2015) so that's a four year development timeline by 11 developers. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

    @UT I hope that Unity will make it easier for developers in the future to make large world/flight/space simulations using Unity out of the box.

    After all they have the new JobSystem for moving lots of things around e.g. origin shifting and PhysX has an origin shifting system built into the API, they would need to overhaul nearly every other system for it to work smoothly and well at > 10k scales but it would open the door for larger worlds and flight/space simulations.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  20. longroadhwy

    longroadhwy

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    For Flight Controller Support ... Rewired has some of the best flight controller support available.

    See the complete list of supported controllers listed here: You have to scroll down to the flight controllers section to see the complete list. ( Joysticks / HOTAS / helicopter controller / Yokes / rudder pedals / throttle quadrants, etc.).
    http://guavaman.com/projects/rewired/docs/SupportedControllers.html

    More information on the Rewired asset can be found here:
    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/utilities/rewired-21676

    You can try the free Rewired trial version to see if it works for your needs.
    http://guavaman.com/projects/rewired/trial.html
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  21. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Well... does it?

    Like I said, I've done stuff quite a distance out with no issues.

    My suggestion to the OP is to download Unity (and other stuff), prototype what you want to do and see how it performs.
     
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  22. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Liking your post for this alone.
     
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  23. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    I'd do some experimentation with the scales you are looking for. You may find that you can get it working to your satisfaction without origin shifting.
     
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  24. Karearea

    Karearea

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    Bit of a red herring. If the target is 10 km away, even with an origin shift system, the missile will be travelling in the correct direction. Presumably you'd be simulating a guided missile, so collisions wouldn't be the most logical way of registering a hit- some sort of proximity measurement would be fine, with some sort of semi randomised damage spread system if necessary. Even with floating point error at those distances, the result should 'feel' reasonable. The missile, including trail, would likely disappear from view fairly early on, so the player can't actually see any of this happening.

    I've implemented broadly similar features with no perceptual issues, including LODing from physics based aircraft nearby to simpler parameter-based aircraft in the distance- the missiles can do the same thing..

    Of course subsonic, within visual range, Korean war or earlier sims are far more interesting anyway!
     
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  25. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Good point. The origin shift isn't around the missile, it's around the player. If something is 10km+ away then the <1mm precision of floating point numbers is going to be fine. It's still within 1cm out at 100km. The direction will be fine, and you'll need a colossal amount of aggregate imprecision for anything to make one pixel of difference.
     
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  26. Arowx

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    Watch what happens to the missiles trail render/particles when your plane or missile pass over the origin shifting threshold.

    Or contrails which you will have in your flight sim as they give a good indication of where other planes are at distance.

    As you will have a 80km visual range for distant objects in your flight sim right?
     
  27. Arowx

    Arowx

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    What about volumetric clouds and skies are there any good solutions for these?
     
  28. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Yes and no. You definitely would be able to see a contrail at that distance but the aircraft itself would most likely be a very tiny dot if it were visible at all. That being said a contrail is not always present as it's dependent on atmospheric conditions.

    Realism aside contrails don't seem to have much of a focus in modern simulators. They're not in Microsoft Flight Simulator X (though a third party mod does add them), they're not in Combat Air Patrol 2 (mentioned by the OP), and my own research didn't turn up any other simulators with them.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  29. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Yep.

    So... what happens?

    If you have stuff animated in world space and then shift them you're going to have artifacts, but they're fixable / avoidable.
     
  30. longroadhwy

    longroadhwy

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    I think this was one of the third party mods you were talking about for contrails.
    https://fsfxpackages.com/en/PrecipitFX/

    Microsoft Flight Simulator is dead (interesting how well third parties continue to support it). And dovetailgames which took over the franchise (based on Microsoft Flight Simulator code base) is also going away.

    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live...article/flight-sim-world-closure-announcement

    X-Plane is the active development (Win/Mac/Linux) and mobile platforms. There is a free demo for desktop platform.
    http://www.x-plane.com

    NOTE: X-plane has dark contrails and has been a focus of discussion in the forums. Also note x-plane.org is not related to x-plane.com. x-plane.org is "fan" site with forums and store. The store provides third party content (digital downloads for new or improved aircraft, scenery, etc.)
    https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/130852-unrealistic-dark-smoke-contrails

    Prepar3D (from Lockheed is based on Microsoft Simulator code base) but it focused on training (not in entertainment where dovetailgames was) is also active.
    https://www.prepar3d.com
     
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  31. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It's the only flight simulator I have any experience with. It's a very popular one too and at this point will likely run on just about anything (I remember it stressing my GeForce GTS 8600 at the time it came out).
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  32. longroadhwy

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    It is amazing how popular it still is. When you walk into stores and still see it on the shelves it is hard to believe that development has stopped. Third parties have done a wonderful job supporting it.

    Prepar3D is also helpful since many of the third party plugins for Microsoft Flight Simulator will work with that too.
     
  33. Arowx

    Arowx

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    This...

     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  34. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

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    If you want to build a flight simulator, you will want to design your game so the plane you are flying is always at the origin and everything else moves around the plane. This advice is true regardless of which engine you use.
     
  35. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Wouldn't this compound the origin shifting problem as every frame you would be origin shifting everything in the world relative to the player?

    I would have thought that flight simulators would run a 64 bit simulation then convert that into Unity rendering coordinates for everything in the field of view, so only a quarter of the world out to maximum visible range needs to be converted (assuming a 90 degree FOV).
     
  36. ShilohGames

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    It is not a problem. You just need to design around it. In most flight simulators, there won't be a lot of physics based objects nearby, so you can usually fake the physics in some way. Similarly, particle systems can be faked to deliver the desired result. Obviously a world space smoke trail won't work.
     
  37. Lu4e

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    Arowx, you may find something you need on this page. Just fake them like ShilohGames said, unless you are doing science rather than games.
    My solution was applying Logarithmic scale similar to this.
     
  38. angrypenguin

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    And that's completely manageable if you know what you're doing.

    It boils down to this:
     
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  39. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Now this looks interesting using logarithmic scales to even out the floating point error for long range and remove the z-fighting issue from the depth buffer.



    Could a logarithmic scale be applied to all vectors and even a logarithmic transform be created to enable large worlds within 32 bit floating point with acceptable error ranges?
     
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  40. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Unity already uses this. HD pipeline goes one further and transforms the camera at 0,0,0 and geometry is rendered in relation to that, so you barely if at all, need origin shifting for the majority of tasks.

    But don't let me interrupt, please continue.
     
  41. Lu4e

    Lu4e

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    I did that on solving z-buffer only, you could try it on coordinate system, the result should be interesting. For games, just scale them within the floating point range like Kiwasi mentioned, or follow hippo suggestion to make your life easier.
     
  42. Arowx

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    Just tried this with my dropship sim and it's not working (2018.2.b4), upgraded to the HD pipeline and still getting camera shudder when I head out beyond 10k!

    Can you show a quick example working or ideally share a demo project?

    Also tried a two camera solution to check if it was the camera FOV precision and that did not resolve the problem, the actual 3d cockpit was juddering due to it's distance from origin.

    So even if a camera sets itself to 0,0,0 if 3d meshes around the camera are a long way from origin they will still shudder due to floating point errors.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  43. angrypenguin

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    He said it improves z-fighting, that's a separate issue to camera shudder.
     
  44. Arowx

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    So if that is combined with scaling you might get away with larger game worlds e.g. 1 u to 100 m?
     
  45. Karearea

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    Maybe, but the HD pipeline is reliant on using correct scales, ie 1 u = 1 m for the lighting solution to function correctly..
     
  46. angrypenguin

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    There are no silver bullets. If there were then Unity would have just built them into the engine in the first place.

    Implementing games isn't about tricks. It's about understanding the systems and tools you're working with and using them to design solutions to the specific problems for your game.
     
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  47. Ryiah

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    Indeed. Z-fighting is a notorious problem with some games. You can very easily see it with Skyrim. Just look at distant mountains when moving around and you'll see details on them flickering.

     
  48. Lu4e

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    By reading these, seems you are simulating like a person using a telescope by adjusting FOV.
    If I didn't read you wrong, you or your client design probably treating the camera and FOV in a wrong way, and its not related to Unity. Even 64bit smooth the problem, but sure will hit another wall very soon in this manner.

    This could be solved by putting camera close to the observing object with a fixed distance on line of sight, then correct the FOV here. For zooming, move the camera along the line of sight, and optionally apply little fisheye post-processing effect if the requirement want a realistic view.

    Brief these to your client if its not your design, good luck.
     
  49. Arowx

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    No adjusting the FOV range can prevent z-buffer fighting, even pushing out the near clipping plane a small amount can help. So a two camera solution one near one far should help minimize z-fighting.

    Note: KSP uses a three camera solution for different scales of the game, space, land, ship. Each have different scales.

    Actually having a cockpit only camera and leaving it at the origin but rotated to match the ship for lighting would reduce the 3d cockpit wobble.

    See this is the kind of thing you end up doing to get Unity to work in larger scales, weird setups, rigs and bespoke solutions.
     
  50. Ryiah

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    Smoke and mirrors. Having 64-bit may save some headache initially but that only covers so many things. If the solution to every problem encountered is to complain about it until it's implemented by the engine then a game will never get made.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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