Unity 4 license compare with UDK, CRytek, Gamebryo, Unigine, Marmelade,Shiva3D etc...

1) There is no way for me to use public transportation where I am, it doesn't go where I need it to go, and the cost is more than driving anyway, unless you are in the actual city, where the rents are double my quote.
2) Many people do share rent, in fact my quote was for a 1 bedroom apartment, for two people. Of course, considering the median "individual" income is around $26K, and thus HALF the US population makes less than that, most people do live 4 or more to a household with 2 or 3 to a room, at least those who live in the metropolitan areas where the jobs are.
3) While I'm quite sure I understand what struggling is in Asia and Eastern Europe, this is hardly the point. Just because some people live in squalor, oppression, or in constant fear of war, does not suddenly mean that those that don't, have all kinds of disposable cash to spend on luxuries like a game engine, computer, etc. In other words, it's moot to the conversation of disposable income. The discussion is about what people need to make to live a regular life where they are currently, and how much money they have left over afterward.
4) I'm REQUIRED to have health insurance in my state or pay a penalty each year for having no insurance (with no insurance provided for my expense). I can get state insurance, but only if I make a salary as an individual of less than about 1.5x the median income, and I have to pay for it at that income, and the cost I'd have to pay would be more than I could afford if I made an income that low.

 

Oh yeah, you're hit with that 25% on the full amount of everything after that first $50k. You make a F2P game with a cash shop...heh, 25% of those sales - you slip ads in - etc, etc, etc, etc.

I'd see the person eventually just coding their own tools.

 

It's be clarified that it has nothing to do with marketing info from said companies a couple of times.

I should have been more clear in asking what I did, no doubt. In a thread discussing which engine is going to win, pointing out what you have renders the thread somewhat pointless - which is along the lines of what I was saying, yet it was coming off as if you were disagreeing with me while agreeing with me (from another angle).

Worth his or her weight in cute?

Which goes to questioning the point of the thread...no?

Where's the comparison matrix? Where are the feature lists? Where's the info about which other middleware works with them? Platforms? System requirements? Available support? Where's the meat of the matter that would help one decide which product is best for their next project?

Do you feel you've learned anything from the discussion about the engines in this thread? Who is the actual intended audience for this thread? No offense to the OP, because they did do a good job on part of it - but there's a lot missing to the discussion. You can't simply break out a discussion on licensing while ignoring the product itself. When folks discuss Chevy vs Dodge vs Ford; they're not usually talking about leasing options...

 

Agree with that. All those engine fights are tiresome.
Seems a lot people comparing engines all the time rather than making a actual game *sigh*

 

So basically your governmental taxes you on gross not net?

*Note to self: Do not work in Canada*

 

Actually its both

 

You'll notice aras said "no"! as a multiple choice but later said "no" without an exclamation mark. Let the theories begin.

In Marmalade, of course.

 

@Khyrid
When you have some children you might experience again how tasty sucking fingers can be.

 

... There are those of us who are not as fortunate as you are And yes, I believe that our government does tax us on gross, but I think that you do have the option to make certain expenses non-taxable. Idk for sure though.

 

After dorking around with a simple tax calculator for the US, CAN, and AUS - I'm not sure that it's really any different. It appears to the be a similar approach of looking at your gross, your deductions, determining your taxable income, and then the amount of tax you should pay.

Have to wonder if it is a case of terminology. For me, "net income" is income after all the various payroll deductions (health insurance, 401k, Medicare, SSI, etc) - it's the take home - the net income. I have a gross income, but I am not taxed on that gross income. The gross income is simply the starting point for the IRS finding the adjusted taxable income (gross/total - deductions).

Gross, Adjusted Taxable, and Net - three different numbers for me. So I'm just wondering if it's a case that somebody used Gross when they meant Adjusted Taxable while somebody used Net when they meant Adjusted Taxable...and people are really just talking about the same thing.

 

Let me think... NO?!

I mean the plain fact that this thread is getting so much attention, while being completly non-sense proves it all ?! And it even doesn't help if some people (including me) spawn a lot of offending stuff in here... People still keep going ^^

 

There's been some good feedback in this thread - talking about OS X and UDK, Unity and Metro ARM.

Though, I'm still curious if Unity's going to make a Vic20 addon and what the pricing would be for the Basic and Pro versions.

Folks are still developing for the Vic20: http://www.richardlagendijk.nl/cnp/vic20/index/1/en

I think it's a market untapped by the folks listed in the poll - the first one to get a jump on the Vic20 could pull away from the pack.

 

Oops, sorry guys, english not being my mother tongue may have put harsher words that I intended to
By "educated" I wanted to mean "developers who know what's under the fancy graphics".

edit : marmelade as the actual food is a great choice idea for every poll in the world !

 

i did learn somethings in this thread. I learned about engines i never heard of, and I also got a few opinions on some of them. Yes, those things you mention would greatly improve the quality of the thread, (someone really should add a comparison matrix) but, that doesn't mean the info so far was useless. We can still add the info that you would like to see as well.

Now that i think about it, there's a thread on these boards that have a similar thing about 3rd party networking frameworks. I should dig up that thread. It was very helpful, and started off the same way this thread did...except it had a webpage or a wiki that had the comparison matrix. Maybe we can use that as a template for such discussions for now on, then sticky it. That way, when these "which engine is better" questions come up, someone can point them to the "definite comparison" thread.

edit: found it

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/95...parison-Chart?highlight=networking+comparison

 

@NPSF3000,
I doesn't work in Canada. I remember exchanging a hellish big amount of emails with some Epic finance dude and they told me several times, that i must pay them 25% out of what ever money get in my hands, before tax cuts!

 

The question though, at the core of the matter, is whether it's something one would discuss at the forums for a particular product or would somebody look for such information in neutral forums?

I dislike didactic trains of thought, but I cannot help but feel that such a thread in the forums of a particular vendor serves one of two purposes:

Fanboi - pat on the back, attaboy!
Hater - thwap to the forehead, ninny!

The networking discussion thread - relates to Unity and is nifty. Threads discussing various GUI options for Unity - nifty! C# vs Javascript vs Boo with Unity - nifty!

UDK vs Cry vs U3D vs etc...huh?

There are plenty of "neutral" forums for such a discussion to take place.

I didn't buy a box of Cracker Jack® and find a Dick Tracy Junior Forum Moderator Decoder Ring - I'm not trying to be the forum police or anything of the kind... I'm just making, to me, an obvious observation.

 

You is probably right...come to think of it, yeah, you can deduct expenses from the gross, and then you're taxed on what's left...and that's the net. Lol we do have the same tax system

 

I guess I'm lucky to be fourteen and making games for fun. Apparently making money off of games involves knowing ways to cheat your government out of taxes. Let the comments roll.

 

That was the first and only case I heard about a game studio loan from govs.
But wohoo... Why the hell a studio needs almost 400 ppl to make a game... I think they just got traped into a political scheme. (38s scandal)

 

And? That makes perfect sense.

The question is why are you paying tax on that money when it's clearly a cost going to Epic... remembering that Epic pays tax on its income as well.

 

Taking my previous example, I'll receive 100 000 first (Apple will declare to my gouv that i got 100K), so i must pay my taxes on all that money.
If for instance, i get the money first without the gouv knowing it, then i can give Epic their cut and pay my taxes from the remaining sum. But it doesn't work like that. xD

 

Again I state:

Silly country.

 

However....
If you are a sole proprietorship and make more than 100K. You don't need to pay any taxes out of that money! Weird he? ^^

 

You receive 100k as gross revenue, pay all your workers/freelancers/whatever, then pay tax on YOUR income. These 25% Epic takes are technically not yours and if you get taxed before paying Epic, the money gets taxed twice which makes no sense. An employer should only pay the money he owns. You manage tax on your money, epic manages tax on their money. You don't manage tax on your and their money.
Is that really how it works in Canada?

 

I could make $250Mn*... if $249,982,000 of that is non-taxable income then I should be in my tax free thresh-hold

*[Of course, that sum of money would be subject to a whole pile of this and that that I have no knowledge of, but the point stands that I'd put that 25% of $100,000 down as an expense and get a good accountant].

 

That's how it have been since my first published game in 2009.
Though, i cannot certify 100% that this is the way it works here. I could have been literally riped-off by my gouv without knowing but still, I'll call them in the coming days to clarify all those things.

 

You should indeed, that sounds weird to be taxed for someone else's money.

 

There's a difference between what Apple/Steam do and what happens with Epic. Apple/Steam take their cut, you receive the rest - that's your revenue. The licensing agreement with Epic is a bill. They're not taking a cut before you get your money - they get a cut after you get your money.

You lease office space. You lease hardware. You pay an electric bill. You pay your employees. You have pizza Wednesday. You pay Epic.

I'm not sure where all the talk of multiple layers of taxation are coming from as if it is something new.

Consider the following:

You sell a cup of lemonade. You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.
On their lunch break, the employee buys a cup of lemonade.
You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.
On their lunch break, the employee buys a cup of lemonade.
You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.
On their lunch break, the employee buys a cup of lemonade.
You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.
On their lunch break, the employee buys a cup of lemonade.
You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.
On their lunch break, the employee buys a cup of lemonade.
You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.
That employee pays taxes on their income.

/cough

That's just a glance at the income tax. How about sales tax?

Say you buy your sugar, lemon juice, and spring water from a store. Depending on where you are, you may find yourself paying sales tax.
When you sell your lemonade, you're going to charge sales tax as well.

Money, coming and going - is taxed multiple times by the government.

So yeah, you'll get taxed on your take after Apple/Steam take their cut (they'll get taxed on their cut) and you'll pay Epic (and everybody else you have to pay) and...they'll pay taxes on that. They'll pay their folks - and - they'll pay tax on that. When they spend money, they'll pay more tax with sales tax - and the companies they buy products from, will have to pay tax on their revenue.

 

More like old and out of date,

Income Tax:

Allowable deductions are expenses that you may incur in the course of earning income and
can be used to reduce your assessable income. To claim deductions, though, there must
be a legitimate link between the expense and your work. Private or domestic expenses are
not allowable deductions. For example, travelling to work and buying lunch each day are
private expenses.

Allowable deductions could include:
■ the cost of tools and equipment used at work
■ union fees
■ the cost of acquiring, repairing and cleaning some types of work clothing (such as uniforms)
■ some work-related travel costs (usually not including travel between home and work)
■ self-education expenses where the course is work-related.

Australian Tax Office

 

Works the way NPSF3000 describes it too.
Upkeep is 'business expenses' that can be deducated from your business gross revenue and result in the taxable business net revenue.

 

Wait to hear about France's new project to tax up to 75% revenues above 1 million ...

 

It's not a $1 to $1 deduction. It's based off of your marginal tax rate - 30%, 38%, 45%.

Going back to the example where it's $100k after Apple's cut, you'd be looking at $50k that Epic would want 25%. $12,500.

If that game was the only source of income, you'd be in the 38% bracket. If allowed as a deduction, it would reduce your taxable income by $4750...not $12500.

 

Course, I find that odd. That was info from the PDF you linked. On the other hand, if you look at their booklet for small business - they even have the sole proprietor paying themselves a salary - deducting that full amount from the "company" income - and then paying a lesser tax rate on that amount of "personal" income...

 

hey KingCharizard, thanks for this whatever the others say.
I'm checking out marmalade now and will check cryengine again since it's been a couple of years since i messed around with anything else but unity.
cheers
J.

 

Not true. Conditions are TOTALLY different. Btw, Unity and all other engines except Torque3D are providing only binaries too in basic licences

 

Err what?

If I have a cost that I can deduct... I will deduct that whole cost from my taxable income.

The amount of your income on which tax is payable is called taxable income. This is
calculated by subtracting any allowable deductions from your assessable income as shown
in the following equation:

assessable income – allowable deductions = taxable income

So yeah, I suggest you seriously start looking into your situation because either it's fundamentally different... or you've fundamentally misunderstood how it works.

 

Just that most professional engines don't offer basic licenses.
its the full thing or nothing, because they don't want to maintain 2 code bases and handle the overhead of the lack of access support requests.

Unity is there cause they started there. torque offers sources cause it is the successor of the Tribes 2 V12 engine which never was meant for script usage (and it still shows in every aspect), most other engines are built around source usage too with scripting only to allow designers to operate with the engines too so programmers can keep doing their job instead of doing the designers and theirs.

I've yet to see a commercial grade engine that offers only binaries in its license offering. None I've ever worked with or evaluated for customers had a licensing model that even allowed you to go there. I don't consider Cry or UDK such offerings cause thats a whole different licensing model, one that limits your access and costs you enough to instantly upgrade to UE should you be successful due to cost reasons, like Dungeon Defenders did that started on UDK

 

It was just a little further down on the page you quoted...

"The important fact to remember about deductions is that they do not give a dollar-for-dollar
tax saving. The tax saving is based on your marginal tax rate. For example, if your marginal
rate is 30%, each dollar of allowable deduction reduces your tax bill by 30 cents, not by $1;
and a $500 deduction would reduce your tax bill by $150."

 

What is so hard to understand?

Taxable income != tax.

If you deduct $25000 from your taxable income [e.g. epic's 25%] you save yourself ALL THE TAX that you would have had to pay for that $25000 - no more no less. Not the 'double taxing' system you claimed:

I'm not sure where all the talk of multiple layers of taxation are coming from as if it is something new.

You sell a cup of lemonade. You have revenue. You pay tax on that revenue.
Your lemonade stand has an employee. You pay that employee - with money from your revenue after taxes.

So on and so forth.

To repeat myself:

So yeah, I suggest you seriously start looking into your situation because either it's fundamentally different... or you've fundamentally misunderstood how it works.

 

Paying attention to timestamps would alleviate such issues.

A person finds a $1 bill on the street. They go into a store and spend it. That $1 becomes income for somebody. It's taxed. They spend that $1. It becomes income for somebody else. It's taxed. They spend it. Income again. Taxed again. The same $1. Taxed over and over.

A person finds a $1 bill on the street. They go into a store and spend it. That purchase involves sales tax. The store purchases something with that $1. Again, the transaction involves sales tax. Another purchase. Sales tax. The same $1. Sales tax, over and over.

A person finds a $1 bill on the street. They go into a store and spend it. That purchase involves sales tax. The $1 becomes income. There's income tax. They spend that $1. They pay sales tax. It becomes income for somebody else. More income tax. That person spends the $1. More sales tax. More income tax. The same $1...taxed coming and going, over and over.

That's as far as the discussion on multiple layers of taxation go - the government is making money off of the same money multiple times.

As for the overall discussion in regard to UDK, taxes, Canada, Australia, etc - we already agreed that the systems were not different and there had been confusion early on in that regard. In regard to what I said about the $1 for $1, I also previously explained where what I had said was contradicted by what I read in the other manual. As to my reply to your unedited post, it was simply a case of where I was offering what I had read for that particular post - not the following one. I did not edit the first, because I thought it was clear in the second that I had it wrong on the first.

 

I'm not sure what you consider 'first' or 'second' - but I didn't see anything that clearly indicated to me that you realized that this:

"If that game was the only source of income, you'd be in the 38% bracket. If allowed as a deduction, it would reduce your taxable income by $4750...not $12500."

Is wrong, hence my posts.

That's as far as the discussion on multiple layers of taxation go - the government is making money off of the same money multiple times.

However your examples of how this done are/were wrong.

 

My post right after that post I said I found that odd - which probably could have been elaborated on and the first one edited; but if I'm wrong on something - I'll usually leave it there unedited and post something else stating that I was wrong (though, I will edit typos - I despise typos).

 

I didn't realize what you meant by that

All's well that ends well.

 

I could have been more clear on it...lol, but I was in a befuddled state - so it was befuddled.

I need to stop pulling all-nighters - as the night goes on, all sorts of things that make no sense appear to make sense and the simplest things elude any comprehension...meh.

 

To be honest I dont understand your point. Almost any engine on the market has several versions. Usually something like free, basic, pro....etc. They indeed dont have any separate branches, they just disable some features according to licence/serial, etc...So does Uningine ( I know at least about 4 licencing options - "basic" indie with limited features, "full" indie with all features, full commercial, source code licence).

What I understand under binaries is SDK without source code. Again, majority of engines is licenced like this, source code licences are usually on personal negotiation for each case.

 

Maybe it would be good idea to put these great games into references. I have never seen real AAA game made on Unity. There is zillion of small/casual games, some of them for sure profitable, but no big game so far. I didnt even heard about any big studio, who used Unity for their important titles. It is always CE3, Unreal engine 2/3, or something custom.

 

Hey Demostenes, back for your semi-annual trolling? My post was in response to someone who claimed that not even 5 successful games had been made with Unity, which was of course ridiculous. I never claimed that there were lots of AAA sized games made with Unity. While probably only 10% complete, our Made with Unity page is fairly representative of the types of games being made with Unity. A lot of these games have gone on to be extremely profitable... Bad Piggies, CSR Racing, Mika Mobile games, etc. And that was my point in the first post. Not AAA sized games which you are so narrowly obsessed with.

 

What i really like about trolls is that in the very end, they will never use either Unity nor the rest of available tools (that they believe to be superior than Unity) to create something. They are just here to troll because their inner ego tells them that it's time for community trolling. They are good at trolling, nothing more. XD

 

<3 Antenna Tree

 

haha i remember demostenes, man needs a hobby

this is a silly thread, i have all the time in the world (a terrible health dilemma keeps the welfare state providing for me) for making games but as im a one man show i need a tool that can bring everything i do together well, hence unity. however, the idea of making a game on five grand unless youre in my situation or youre a living with your parents manchild is hilarious

the unity license is very agreeable for those in my circumstances, i havent seen much to compete on those kind of terms, i'm always deeply tempted by the bigger guys because of the basic toolset but theres always defining things that sour it completely, mainly lack of support (the sometimes childish but usually solid unity community and answers system and asset store are absolutely invaluable to the solo-er). in the end, if you put together a team intending to make money with udk etc, you really,really, need to have some capital behind you and saying otherwise, unless you are in exceptional circumstances, is laughable (imho)

seems some schoolboys here thinking that if they just keep talking some wrong things become right

thanks for the insight into overseas tax conventions by the way