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Unity 4 Details

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MattCarr, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. taumel

    taumel

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    Somehow it would be nice if Lux would develop realtime engines. Then you might get everything you want, reasonable prices/updates/licences/features (which are developed before you have to buy the product). Okay, the engine would crash from time to time as well.

    I would be happier with a finished V3 product in the first place because i only use a subset of the features, often features Unity doesn't concentrate on. Some of the V4 features sound nice but there are also others which i simply don't need. So if the price is reasonable you buy it in the bundle but if it is not, then you don't. Supply and demand, if the majority buys it, then it will stay this way, if a reasonable amount of people regrets the offer then there will be changes.

    I'm really glad that we decided a year ago to do our main project in XCode.

    Btw. has there been an explanation from Unity for this significant price increase?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  2. OmniverseProduct

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    for the most part I just plan on doing 2D work. Since I have the tools to develop flash games I really could care less if it's with or without unity.

    Let me ask a clearer question. Would I be able to use Actionscript 3.0 inside unity or even at all? Am I limited to C#, Boo, and Javascript? To me if Unity supported Actionscript via flash license, I would buy that in a heartbeat.

    Edit: I don't think I'm alone on that either. I'm wondering when or if vector graphics will be supported out of the box. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  3. AngryAnt

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    Indeed. I'm just not sure we've ever really thought about people not being aware of this setup :)
     
  4. Muckel

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    i love Unity since Version 1.5 !
    So i was fearing that Unity becomes toooo big like with the port for Windows... and the free version... for what ???
    All was sooo easy as it was Mac only... the Bug's where fixed very quick (iOS) and i was very Happy with 1.8 !!!!
    The forum was much responsive and Higgi and many other where there to help you..... and now ???
    Then the announcement : Port to Windows and Headquater moves to from Denmark to USA... what a huge Cost for what ????
    After that happened i had bad Dreams about Unity and what will it become.... i wrote some e-mail's to David to explain my fear....
    because i know what can happen if a Company grows too fast and is too big like Adobe... sometimes you wait years for a bug fix etc...
    or what happened if the Management do wrong like Macromedia.... i know Macromedia also from the beginning until the End ! Uhhhh and i really don't like the Situation now with Adobe...

    I make all my Money with Mobile : Android iOS ..... since all the Years and i never will do a Desktop Game for Windows... because you need a Publisher and goooood connections to get back the Money you spend..... it is easier with the Mac APP Store but not my Road as many others....
    If i see the forums and read the post's i thing that the most Money is made in the Mobile Market !!!!
    So why announce some DX11 features as killer features if that is only for one Platform where only a few People know how to work with that ???
    What's about all the fixes and optimization for Mobile that are missing (Splashscreen rotation, GC etc) it takes now too long time that there is a update that will address the issue
    Only feature is now Shadow on Mobile... but it's sure that it takes a lot of Power to do... so not really good on slower Devices like iPad 1 ....
    So the Problem is you have to update if you want to Publish to the Mobile Market !!!! That cost so much now 2550$ for a update that has no features for the Mobile only that you can Publish to the new Devices iPhone 5 Android use the new Assets.... uhhhhffff is a lot !!!
    Hmmm i'm not sure but my bad Dream about Unity becomes more and more true !!!
    I was just wondering why :
    1. Flash support ????? it's a dead technology in 3-5 Years !!! Don't get me wrong but i'm a Flash Teacher.... like Director ... nobody need it anymore !!!! So why spend a lot of Money Power in a Technology that is Dead ???
    2. Linux support.... is nice because i like Linux but i don't know someone in my big community that uses Linux to Play Games .... for me personally it's a waste of time money tooo....

    Please Unity go back to the roots and remember where you came from !!! and what People made your Business....
    where you got all the Money from... your loyal customers who payed everything ....

    Now since the Windows Port every Version for Windows is available cracked in the net... that was also one Argument i had against the Windows Port.... now all what i say'd 2 Years before are true.... see the forums etc... but you say No Problem : If People use a cracked Version of Unity they will buy it one time.... that is not true !!! and so more People use Unity so better is also not true !!!
    i'm a long long time in the Multimedia Busyness and work as a freelancer for big big company's and everywhere in the World where they use Windows there are often not paid Software on the Computer... just one license for Photoshop 3D Max but they use it on 10 or more Machines.... that is true !!!

    conclusion:
    from my Point of View: Unity has taken the wrong direction since the Port for Windows and now we the community has to pay for.... it is okay if we get useful things but only a bug fix and some feature that work only on Windows Computer makes it hard to accept the High Upgrade Price from 2550 $ for each Machine for a Mobile Developer.....
    if Company's don't listen to the loyal customers the business will gone very quick... there are many examples in real life

    My wish:
    Go back too Denmark because it's much cheaper there and stop the Flash Linux stuff.... concentrate on the core features and remember where you came from and what was the main goal....
    The big busyness is not for you ! You freaky great awesome Unity Ninjas !!!! I still LOVE YOU !!!!!
     
  5. angrypenguin

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    No. It allows you to publish to Flash, not run Flash inside Unity.
     
  6. AngryAnt

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    Action script files in your assets folder are picked up when you're publishing for flash, yes.

    Not when publishing for other platforms though.
     
  7. OmniverseProduct

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    Nice! You caught my attention now!
     
  8. angrypenguin

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    I stand corrected.

    For my clarification, then, are they intended just for the Unity app talking to Flash-specific libraries and functions, or can you actually script Components in Unity with AS?
     
  9. Dreamora

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    I know how it works but to me 'not reading the documention' (R.T.F.M) is still an error by the seller and I consider it a thing he did on purpose cause he decided himself to not read the documentations and do his homework. That was not something Unity enforced on him, being a lazy bum trying to make a fast buck.

    Not sure if I should see it as great that Unity is going to make them aware of it.
    Yes it will solve the issue of the packages being of the wrong version, but at the same time it will only strengthen them in their believe that being too lazy to even read the manual for the system through which you intend to earn cash is the way the future is gonna work and that sucks absolutely and is a thing I personally do not support.
    I'm too much of a Darwinist here I guess cause I don't see why lifeforms not adapting to their ecosystem (reading the manual as a developer) they life in should be 'dragged along' (simplifying a system so even a 7yr old can use it when it is targeted at professionals and serious hobbiests and when it only can be used by 15yr or so old anyway as we talk about a cash store hosted in the EU here) just to trash the ecosystem in the next generation by hindering its evolution to the better.

    The growing amount of trash and half a day then sell crap on the Asset Store does not really help 'softening' that PoV.


    But to offer a solution: How about doing whats done in this industry for years already.
    Force everyone to fill out a questionary before being allowed to upload anything for selling and reenforce that whenever the terms or technical aspects changed.
    Even programming / design service platforms like oDesk do that to ensure that their uses invested a minimal amount of time to read the documentation and also understand it, not only read the letters written there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  10. Dreamora

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    Action Script is no language for usage in Unity. Thats still Boo, UnityScript (close enough to ActionScript to be picked up rapidly) and C#
    The picked up action scripts are integrated into the flash build and can do their work there, using the Flash api and using the SendMessage channel to execute functions from your unity code side from the flash side and alike
    You could think of that as the Flash counterpart to plugins on other platforms, thats the best analogy
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  11. AngryAnt

    AngryAnt

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    @Muckel
    Just wanted to clear a few things out:

    - When the company HQ moved to SF, there was no actual physical move of anything - except for David and some of his stuff, so absolutely minimum cost there.

    - Main development is still in CPH and 99% of developers at UTech are located within one timezone of CPH - with 90% actually being in the CPH office.

    - As we add on more platforms and features, yes things become more complex to maintain. That is also why we need more developers - which we have been getting, but still need more of. ( http://unity3d.com/jobs/ anyone ).

    - It is true that not as many people are on the forums from UTech as there used to be, but I think you'll find that it's not a big a difference as you think. There is just no way we can scale our presence here with the presence of the quickly growing community. Except of-course if we get more developers ( http://unity3d.com/jobs/ anyone ) ;) Nah ok I'll stop that now ;)

    I know Ethan spends a lot of time here and I monitor and partake in the scripting forum as much as I can - although I often stay out of threads which I judge the community can answer itself just fine. Tim, Shawn, Aras and many others also pour a lot of time into various fora.

    We're not the big, mean, cold corporation of Sci-Fi horror and I don't think anyone is more worried about and dedicated to preventing such a scenario than ourselves. Yes, we change as we grow - that is unfortunately inevitable, but growth is also often needed to maintain the development we all want to do. There is no way we could have gotten this far at this point with the size and resources we had at 1.8.
     
  12. AngryAnt

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    That ^

    It is means as a supplement to access platform specific functionality. Just like you can call into Obj-C code in iOS projects, Java in Android and website JS in webplayer projects.
     
  13. Eric5h5

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    That's...really not what most people are doing, I expect. I wasn't aware of the issue at first, and the F.M. is something I did indeed R. Or are you calling me a lazy bum? Then we're going to have to take this outside. ;) Well, we should anyway, since this is pretty off-topic.

    --Eric
     
  14. taumel

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    I just say properly welded lines. :O)
     
  15. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    @AngryAnt:
    I know you guys have offices all around the world... You should someday consider Brazil too.
    Do you know, it is the hot country of the moment, I see Tech companies opening offices here almost everyday now.
    Microsoft, Ubisoft and EA are here since a long ago... But now even Square-Enix are talking about coming too. Im so excited about it.

    If Unity comes too maybe this godamn license upgrade gets cheaper for me! Hahaha :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  16. AngryAnt

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    It's funny you should mention it. We've had a one-man office there for years ;)
     
  17. jashan

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    Actually, some people do. I posted a couple of suggestions of how I believe certain things could be handled in a way that would cause less frustration with users; and I think a few other people did so as well. Like, one easy fix for the "half-baked-stuff" issue: Mark stuff that's not really complete as "beta", and add a tag "use this at your own risk". That way, people can get their hands on new features as soon as possible - but people who expect features to be "super-polished" have a clear transparent warning that "feature X" is not up to Unity's standards.

    This was done nicely with Flash. I didn't closely follow the discussion there - but my guess would be that much fewer people were frustrated or angry about issues with Flash (and I do know that there were many). Everyone knew they were testing something that wasn't complete and that they would run into issues.


    Also, use major releases to introduce big new features that might still not be complete. That's the standard in software development: People who are cautious will avoid x.0 releases and jump in at x.1 or x.2 because those are usually much more stable than x.0. With Unity, in many cases, it's the other way round (as many people have complained with stuff started in 3.5 that will "find completion" in 4.0).


    To give an extreme example (I'm not seriously asking for this - but it illustrates the point): UnityGUI was obsolete when Unity iPhone was introduced. At least for Unity iPhone. Given that a game engine needs a good GUI engine, UT could have said "ok, Unity iPhone is cool, we want to put it in your hands, but you know what: we currently can't deliver a proper GUI system, so we call it Unity iPhone beta until we have the GUI issue sorted out" (what they did instead was: well, you better don't use UnityGUI, use the GUI system from Unity 1 instead ... well, they called it Unity iPhone 1.7 back then, so maybe they did the right thing for a little while ;-) ).

    Once the new GUI is done, Unity iPhone (and Android) would finally leave "beta-status". People could have still created their own custom GUI solutions before that, and people could have still created awesome games with Unity iPhone. But it would have felt a little more clear and transparent. As said before: That would be this idea taken to the extreme. That's not something I'm asking for (and in any case, it's just an idea I'm offering, not a request I'm asking for).


    A less extreme example: Substances only work properly for desktop ATM. So, from a mobile developers perspective, Substances are currently "beta" or actually even "alpha". So call it that. Make it clear and transparent, put a label on it "Substances - beta" (or "Unity Mobile / Substance: current in alpha, we're working on it"). And remove the label once it works everywhere it should. Of course, with Substances, it was clearly communicated that those wouldn't properly work on mobile for a while, so I'm not complaining (and I did file a bug report when I found out that the workaround - substances being baked into the builds - failed to work).

    Same with Shuriken: Some features that were supported in the old particle systems and that some people seemingly need aren't supported, yet. Call it "Shuriken beta", have a list "this and that and also that other thing won't work with Shuriken, if you need it, please use the old system until we really have completed the new system".

    I'm just saying: Put a label on it, and list it somewhere, make it really transparent for everyone to see. "These features are incomplete, use at your own risk, these are the limitations we are aware of, we're working on it, if you find something else, file a bug report".

    It's all about having clarity on which feature is how complete and communicating that clearly.


    Also, with the Unity 4 / new GUI issue: Instead of posting a "whoa, we now have the awesome Unity 4.0 almost ready for you, here's the update price" to the world, not saying anything about the fact that the GUI system was once again delayed, why not send the information first that Emil kindly shared with us much later: "Ok everyone, we are aware many of you are desperately waiting for the new GUI system ... we did our best to give it to you in 3.x but that didn't work out for reasons X, Y, Z - now it turns out we'll probably not even make it for 4.0 either but we could really use the money you'll give us for the next major release. We're really sorry about that, very much appreciate your patience ... and trust us: We want to get that done as much as you want us to get it done. We're working on it and will deliver as soon as we can. Stay tuned!"

    Once that's swallowed by the community, send out the mail-blast with the cool Mecanim and Linux and DX11 stuff.


    I also suggested putting the new GUI out to the people with that big fat "beta use at your own risk we might end up changing everything about this"-tag, if in any way possible.

    Or, instead of going 4.0 when people were waiting for the new GUI in 3.x, go for 3.6, 3.7, whatever, until the new GUI is ready and polished (that obviously might not work for economic reasons - but it would be a possible solution; someone suggested to go for 4.0 but still add the new GUI to 3.x after 4.0 was released ... another solution I believe would be making a lot of people much happier than how it's currently done).


    And: Don't make me pay 50%+ for an upgrade. Especially not if I have 3 Pro platforms to update. And especially especially not, if you're not delivering a feature I have been waiting for since Unity iOS was first released and that many people paid the upgrade to 3.x for.


    There are a lot of ideas of how these things could be handled in a way that probably would go better with customers. I'm not saying all of this would really work - I'm not even saying "I want UT to do it that way". I'm just saying: Those are possibilities that I would be very happy with and I sincerely believe that a lot of people would be happy with such an approach.
     
  18. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    Hmm... My guess is you had a reseller or something like that lol.
    Never heard about Unity around here, but I heard about a reseller.
     
  19. AngryAnt

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    I think we have one, yea, but I was referring to one of our Mono developers who lives and works there :)
     
  20. jashan

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    Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. UT got external funding from VC companies. See also http://webinos.org/crossplatformtools/unity-technologies/

    I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - but it's certainly a thing I personally don't feel particularly comfortable with. But I have an idea ;-)
     
  21. Metron

    Metron

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    Well... if only Unity would consider home office and/or outsourcing ;)
     
  22. Aras

    Aras

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    I find it hard to count the number of people who are working from home offices here. Many! Hint hint.
     
  23. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    Please give me his address...
    Tell me he is responsible for Mono not upgrading from 2.6 to at least 2.7+ and I go there shoot him.

    Edit: Oh god... Of course I was kiding, mr. Mod :(
    What do you think I am? A gangsta from Rio??? trololo
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  24. unisip

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    so, shadows for mobile in Unity 4... Awesome!

    Does this mean that other depth based effects will become available on mobile too?
    Specifically, should we expect something like SSAO on iOS?
     
  25. MattCarr

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    Just gonna quote myself here because I wanted to actually ask a question about the above. I don't think it's been announced, but is the Apex Destruction integration talked about in this GDC presentation going to be in Unity 4.0 or 4.X?
     
  26. AngryAnt

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    Heh, we've all been. As mentioned a mono upgrade is not out of the question in 4.x - it's just not happening in 4.0.

    With regards to this guy he's been very busy making mono more performant and JavaScript more feature rich while working with the flash task force to get the magical C/C++/.net -> as3 working ;)

    Everyone has been working really hard on their respective areas to make 4.0 awesome for as many people as possible. We realise that it's not a 100% fit with the best ever 4.0 that every single user in out 950k user base had in mind, but that's why we're of-course continuing our work on improving existing stuff and making new stuff available in 4.x.
     
  27. AngryAnt

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    We're definitely very interested in that tech, but it's not going to be in 4.0. With regards to 4.x, please see the newest awesome addition to my signature ;)
     
  28. MattCarr

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    Hmm...

    Awesome, well that puts my mind at ease. Also, I love the continued accuracy of the quote option here.
     
  29. AngryAnt

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    @MattCarr: Hehe :)
     
  30. BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    Oh I see... You are talking about the creator of UnityScript. :)
     
  31. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I can appreciate the lack of a GC overhaul but since we're not getting an upgraded GC any time soon, how about improving key parts of unity to spawn less runtime garbage? It's fairly important for mobile as ya know :)
     
  32. nipoco

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    I threw pretty much the same concern into this thread. But Emil said that's not as bad as some may think.

    Anyway, UT should maybe reconsider their upgrade pricing for V4.0, since it apparently pisses a lot customers off :cool:
     
  33. hippocoder

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    Thanks for backing up our case that we need improved GC and mono.
     
  34. taumel

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    Investors aren' bad by default. Many companies at a certain size get some cash in order to grow faster and being able to serve their market, beside of the company's own growth through a raising turnover it's a very common strategy. So it depends on a number of aspects like the intention of the investors. Do they want to change the world? Do they want a roi in a aggressive way? Do they have an influence on the companies decision? If so, is it good or bad? And so on.

    Therefore i don't share Jashan's fears nor his believes that users can or should fix this by more blindly buying Unity products, regardless of the hard facts. For Unity, depending on the investors intentions, i'm quite sure it was the right decision but then again all this has nothing and all to do with this price increase and shifting Unity's target audience focus.

    This is up to Unity, as well as the speed they want to grow and in which style they intend to do so. There is more than what this thread's cheerleader AngryAnt wrote. Many roads are leading to Rome, also in business economics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  35. diese440

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    I'm using Unity Pro since 2007 (version 1.x).
    The last release for 1.x was 1.6.2 (a stable version):D

    Upgrading to 2.x
    The last release for 2.x was 2.6.1 (a stable version):D

    Upgrading to 3.x
    The last release for 3.x IS 3.5.2 ? (not as quite as 3.4.2f3, in my opinion)​

    ++ agree, waiting for a missing 3.6 version.

    btw, i'm happy with 4.0 announcement and i will pre-order it next week ! but, please UT we need a mature product now.

    Thx to the team, i really love Unity !
     
  36. AngryAnt

    AngryAnt

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    Aww, thanks Taumel. Let me go get my skirt and pom-poms.

    Naw, I'm sorry if our presence and attention to this thread offends you, but you are indeed right. Everything is more complicated than it seems and no we're not sharing *all* of our plans - you can see how going into detail has worked for us before.

    However we're not a silent and cold wall either. We do go talk to our customers, answer their questions and make our intentions clear as best we can. Even when that apparently earns us new and interesting nicknames.
     
  37. AngryAnt

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    As mentioned, we're not done with 3.5 just yet.
     
  38. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    This is a very disappointing release.
    There are only couple major selling points / features in this v4.0 release.
    1. Mecanim
    2. Mobile Shadow
    3. Linux support
    4. DX 11


    While Mecanim is a major major feature (basically we getting HumanIK/MotionBuilder built-in for free) but UT didn't code it - they bought the guys out - so that means there is only really few features that comes from UT. Mobile shadow is very welcomed, but Linux and DX 11? I know there are a lot of vocal users for Linux support but wasn't that already happened in 3.5? So. Really, what's new in 4.0 is just DX11 !! What are you doing UT?

    Compare to 2.6 to 3.0, this release seems more like a "point release" than anything! I would call it Unity 3.6 :D
     
  39. diese440

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    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D thanks Angry.
     
  40. thesaint1987

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    Not to say anything against him, but it is always funny how when thousands or for that matters millions of people try to sell something and some succeed and are threaded as geniuses, while they just had the luck that what they were doing was actually working ;). I still think NGUI is only a gap-filler and far from being productive. But it is way better than what Unity has to deliver and way better than nothing... Steve Jobs was a business genius ^^. To give an example.
     
  41. thesaint1987

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    I highly doubt they make a fortune ^^. But maybe they do, which would be wierd because I don't see what's so great about it. It is really not hard to create you own GUI in Unity, takes about two weeks depending on your requirements it can be much less. You got a big problem if you are an artist though. Otherwise, as a programmer, it is a matter of days or weeks at maximum to write one...
     
  42. jashan

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    That was not the idea (and if it was, I wouldn't consider it a particularly great idea, either) ;-) ... and I wouldn't speak of "fears" when I just say I find it somewhat uncomfortable. Mostly, I was replying to "your loyal customers who payed everything ....", where the everything part simply doesn't hold true anymore because $17.5 million were not customer money, and those $17.5 million certainly paid something ;-)

    VC investments are another topic than what this thread is about but just to clarify my perspective on this: I had a really close look at Sequoia and as far as I can tell, that's a good partner for UT. I still don't really like involvement of VC in general but I can see why it does make a lot of sense. As far as I can see, it's not even that much about the money but more about the contacts / network that they bring. With the second round of funding, that was obviously UT's way of getting a foot into the asian markets; also most likely a good decision.
     
  43. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    ahen! Do I read two codebases for Unity there??
    If so thats good because I cant imagine that many ppl updating to 4 for a while.
     
  44. cannon

    cannon

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    The upgrade price is irritating on a subliminal level for us programmers because for years it's always been a nice binary fraction of the full price. We also like round numbers, which was why the pre-order price for 3.0 was so appealing. This cycle's upgrade prices are unsettling.
     
  45. AngryAnt

    AngryAnt

    Keyboard Operator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Posts:
    3,042
    A lot of people have been worried about leaving 3.5 unstable and unloved and many times over I've mentioned that right now - even as 4.0 is still in the shop - people are still working on fixes for 3.5. After 4.0 launches we will continue to apply critical fixes to 3.5 for a little while.

    As was also pointed out by someone else earlier in the thread, maintaining two codebases is unrealistic in the long term, so we're talking critical fixes applied to both branches - not feature development.
     
  46. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Posts:
    3,311
    Ahhh crap. :( I just upgraded to Pro a month ago because I didn't think they'd launch 4.0 so soon. If I had just waited a few weeks I wouldn't have to blow an extra $850. Crap. Maybe they'll take pity and offer some of us refunds if we just bought the pro license recently. But... probably not. :(
     
  47. taumel

    taumel

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Posts:
    5,293
    @jashan
    It's like with games/apps, every project/investment is different but with the cases i have in mind and experienced, it always was a win for the companies but the CEOs also were experienced/intelligent and grounded enough. I wouldn't say something is uncomfortable if you otherwise can't serve a potential existing stable or even rising market.
     
  48. BrUnO-XaVIeR

    BrUnO-XaVIeR

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Posts:
    1,687
    Wohoho... Standing by that, the sky is all blue to me again :)
    Very clever Unity...
     
  49. loopyllama

    loopyllama

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Posts:
    71
    It isn't that bad. Honestly, Unity has not let me down yet. The sour taste is the big 4.0 announcement with only mobile shadows for mobile developers. I know I will get presents eventually. But cannot I be anxious about what those presents might be and when I will get them? ;) A 4.x mobile intended roadmap or more initial mobile features would make preordering easier. Thanks for taking the time to read all of our posts. I really appreciate the attention.
     
  50. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Posts:
    2,421
    Does future version iOS compatibility count as a feature? or a fix?
     
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