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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MattCarr, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Moonjump

    Moonjump

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    You did sound a little like a Unity shill, but now I know you understand the frustration. Each thing wouldn't be too bad on its own, but a not quite unfinished Unity 3 with steeper upgrade pricing seemed a little too much. I overreacted a bit because it happened while I am going through a period where I am doing a lot of builds to iOS devices and Unity/Xcode build reliability is still so poor, so I am already frustrated.

    I will now be positive as you suggested.

    The feature I am most looking forward to is the Dynamic Fonts on all platforms. No more importing a font multiple times to get each size, and compromising the design to avoid using even more sizes.

    I have not used animation in any of my games, but I am less likely to avoid it in the future if Mecanim works as advertised. It seems as animation will be a less scary area to investigate.

    3D texture support sounds potentially interesting, but I don't know what it is yet.
     
  2. AngryAnt

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    Please contact support@unity3d.com with this issue.
     
  3. hippocoder

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    indentation fail :(
     
  4. pabu

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  5. thesaint1987

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    Maybe because only a fraction are actually using this crappy terrain ^^? I couldn't think what I would never need this for. You usually can trust that such a company does their homework in market research... A forum is definitely not the best place to start.
     
  6. QFS

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    Hopefully the company does not think like you, because if a company ignores complaints then they're doomed for failure. Complaints are merely a warning sign that something is wrong, and actions are required to repair it.
     
  7. Code_Of_Honour

    Code_Of_Honour

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    :( Haha, pressing tab doesn't work here on the forums :p And I didn't feel like manually spacing it. I guess I will now though :D *manually indents script*
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  8. AngryAnt

    AngryAnt

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    We're not ignoring anything. We've been here the whole time ;)
     
  9. Starsman Games

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    You are supposed to take those blocks into Notepad.exe, do the tabs there and paste it into the forum post! :p
     
  10. Tseng

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    Of course the few bits of Shuriken looks awesome, but a replacement system (in this case new particle system which replaces the old one) should at least have the same features the old system did.

    This is clearly NOT the case with Shuriken. There are quite some vital features which don't work with Shuriken, most notable one (for me) is the world collision. They are important for quite some stuff, i.e. adding sounds, energy loss on collision or destruction of the particles on collsion

    I don't think I've read any post which said the Shuriken particle system sucks, because well it doesn't. But it's incomplete unless it offers at least the same features as the previews legacy particle system. Now UT comes, and tells me: "Hey look here, at that new shiny particle system. If you want world collisions, pay xxx $ to upgrade to 4.0".

    It's things like that which leave a bitter taste.


    So do I. Or I did before that announcement. Now I'm not sure. Unity had (and still has) some flaws, that can happen.

    But seeing how customers are treated here, I start to doubt that this will change anytime soon. Companies work similar to countries/currencies: Everything works good as long as the citizens have faith in the government/currency. Then they loose it, hell breaks out.

    I'm interested to see, how they are going to fix this loss of faith if they want to survive in the long run.

    As so often, you don't read other people comments properly, misunderstand them or simply read to much into it.

    He never said, that Max or Maya's FBX exporter is broken oder bugged. It's the FBX format itself, that has certain limitations. When you export a model into an FBX and reimport it, certain informations are simply lost, because the FBX format doesn't have the necessary features to store this kind of informations.

    The real difference is, if you have max, you can directly import from the 3ds/max files w/o having to go through the FBX format. Also other Engines have 3ds/max/maya importers, but Blender importers are rare. So if you use Blender with that exporters, you have to convert it into FBX and by doing so you lose certain informations.

    Same happens when you convert an BMP (or PSD) file into a JPEG. You will lose informations. They can never be restored from the JPEG, unless you have the original BMP for example. A PSD file may have many layers, if you convert it into a BMP you will lose this informations, because BMP can't store this informations. Same applies for FBX
     
  11. Code_Of_Honour

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    So THAT'S what Notepad.exe is there for! A program made entirely for making indents in forum posts! Genius! :D
     
  12. Starsman Games

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    Microsoft foresight is now entirely revealed!
     
  13. VeraxOdium

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    I think this thread is fine and addressed basically everything. If you try to read all 43 pages at once you might need a puke bucket and seeing dissent, complaints over and over is going to get annoying sure. I've been following this off and on since its inception and I think I have a really clear picture now.
     
  14. stimarco

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    Except... people are far more likely to complain about something than to praise it. This is problem with many statistical analyses: if you don't take the inherent "whiner bias" into account, you'll end up running around in circles trying to please everybody all of the time. That's simply not possible.

    People expect things to run smoothly, so when a product does so, the user tends not to even notice; they see it as the product's default state. They're unlikely to go out of their way to say, "Hey! Your product runs really smoothly!"

    But when things go wrong—even slightly wrong—whoa mama! You'll get positively spammed within complaints, even if the problem affects only a tiny percentage of your users. Unity has over one million users; 1% of one million is ten thousand people!

    If just 1% of your users are complaining on your forums, they can easily give the impression of major problems with your product because their natural reaction is to assume everyone uses your product in exactly the same way they do, despite any evidence to the contrary. And 99% of your customers are most likely having no problems at all.
     
  15. Code_Of_Honour

    Code_Of_Honour

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    Ah! The wisdom of Microsoft...in time, methinks, we shall find their foresight behind that thing they call "Vista"...
     
  16. Lars-Steenhoff

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    Unity does not have 1 million pro version users for sure. free users yes , but we won't complain about the free one.
     
  17. QFS

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    Not really. Imagine a bell-curve, on one side you have complaints, and the other side fanboyism, with the large majority hovering in the middle. Its the middle section that remains quiet, unless something draws them to either side of the spectrum. So, something really great will draw praise, and something really bad will draw complaints.
     
  18. Tseng

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    Right, free users won't complain of course. Everything that worked in Unity 3.5 free will probably work with 4.0 free too with additional features.

    It's of course the people who have purchased the product and will have to pay for "bug-fixes" and "the other half" of the unfinished features introduced in 3.5 (or not introduced at all, after almost 2 years of announcement).
     
  19. Don-Gray

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    Isn't that the VAT (value added tax) that is used in Europe?
    It isn't a US issue.
     
  20. loopyllama

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    yes and no.
    yes, no one is forcing us to upgrade now.

    no, we will eventually have to update. Bug fixes will primarily get fixed in 4.x. Eventually Unity will finish the new GUI system, and it will not be a part of 3.x.

    I have thought about it a little bit so this is not my initial reaction. I feel forced to jump into an unknown pool and past upgrades have not felt like that for me. I primarily develop for mobile but I have to buy a pro pc license. I do not buy the flash component, but somehow this upgrade feels like I have to pay for the linux component even though I don't want it. I want bug support and new features. Mechanim is not a good new feature for mobile in general. I am forced to own the pc version of Unity to own the Iphone version. I feel like I am not getting any major features that will help me, yet I have to pay for the pc version and iphone version again for proper support. I know new features for mobile will come (okay, okay, shadows...but that is not worth a $1700 upgrade).

    I want to support Unity because I am happily productive. I will buy 4.0. I will most likely preorder Unity 4.0. I know I will get new mobile features eventually, I just wish I knew what they were...Even if it was a simple bullet point list of planned 4.x mobile features that may or may not happen.

    I'll jump, but can't you throw me and other mobile users a bone?
     
  21. SilentOne001

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    Well, I've been a Unity owner since the beginning of Unity 2 and this is the first time I've ever felt the need to complain. That should tell you something isn't right with this.
     
  22. Khyrid

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    Hmmm... Hey Unity, I have no issues with importing assets into my scene, it's very easy and functional, great job!
     
  23. hippocoder

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    Agreed, this is one of the things that makes unity 3.5 as yet unfinished. We do need certain features finished off for 3.5 before moving on especially in the case where a replacement feature has less features than what it replaced. Although strictly speaking, shuriken wasn't actually on the Tin for 3.x but came during development so it is ongoing. Plus you still have the old particle system to hand. I would be very concerned though if it wasn't to hand.

    Could this lesson for unity be: polish and finish your stuff before moving on? I hope so.
     
  24. goat

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    I don't know how Adobe does it but if as you imply they've used it as excuse to charge subscribers more, rather than a means of getting more customers and lowing the costs for all of them then they have made a strategic marketing mistake.

    I never would lease an automobile on those terms and I'm sure most won't 'lease' software on those terms. If you're speaking software leases (and really buying a license is leasing it because of platform target changes) then from a company like Unity's point of view you lease a license for a year which is a fancy way of saying buy a license in payment plans. Jacking up payments with ridiculous insurance costs and such will defeat the purpose. Unity's insurance can be linking the license to the 'App Store Portals' of the leasor and take a cut of the sales for those that don't fulfill the terms of the lease (those that don't fulfil the terms of the lease likely won't publish anything anyway and making the license expire after a certain date until the term of the lease are met is trivial). Unity will all get a view as to how much Unity apps are making and how many they are and on what platforms, at least for those 'leasing'.

    Businesses leasing computers and other equipment are supported by the government allowing write-offs and tax breaks to the point the it is actually the taxpayers (and worrkers!) paying for the equipment they are using. At least in America. Even so, the costs are so great and upgrades so disruptive, that many businesses avoid them. Particularly those business that don't have a most favored briber status with their government.

    I mean, if I felt so inclined I could probably easily get $3500 or now $5000 for the local SBA to buy licenses so it's not like they are super expensive for a viable business, plenty of people get a lot more more for businesses a lot less likely to succeed. Unity is simple artificially expanding their market in an attempt to make a bigger ROI but I think gaming is oversaturated. Luckily, it's not like gold rushes, where the gold peters out, you can always have a chance to create a successful app. Unity 4.0 will make it easier for developers but still so much luck is involved.

    I think Unity has a better chance than the others to establish itself as the primary portable gaming / education / business app presentation engine fulfilling the promise Java clients couldn't.

    If I were Unity, I would, once this new GUI is finished, have several demo projects available showcasing Unity as a 'presentation' and 'similation' engine for business, education, and government rather than just a gaming engine.
     
  25. TitanDev19

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    only one question. will there be an open beta?

    *Google Translator
     
  26. kenlem

    kenlem

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    Does upgrade pricing go away after the pre order is done?
     
  27. Starsman Games

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    They confirmed it won’t go up.

    The $200 coupon will only be offered during preorder though. Also mentioned: the coupon would be u sable only for a future purchase. May be smart to just upgrade the Unity Pro core, get the coupon, then upgrade the Mobile licenses if any using the coupon.
     
  28. antenna-tree

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    The price will stay the same but there will no longer be the $200 voucher.
     
  29. Jarhead

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    I hope you guys reconsider this position. I think 99.9% of people find the roadmap posts very useful and don't read them as promises to deliver by a certain date. Yes, there will always be that 0.1% of the community who are completely illiterate and unable to comprehend what a roadmap post is. I mean seriously, if someone makes a purchase decision based off of a road map post, it's called making a stupid decision, not Unity's fault. I think most people understand a roadmap post is not a promise to deliver but rather a list of features that may or may not make it into a future release.

    Sadly, this 0.1% of community lacks the moral integrety to accept responsibility for their own stupid mistake and instead chooses to blame Unity. So hopefully you guys can just accept that there will always be a small portion of people who read road maps the way they want rather than the way they were intended. No matter how well you word the post, it's just going to happen. I would argue, that these people are not the intended audience of the roadmap posts in the first place. The intended audience of a road map is the 99.9% of the people who actually understand what they are and are excited to see what you guys are working on and what might make it into a future release. So hopefully you don't let the 0.1% frustrate you to the point that you stop posting roadmaps. Again, for most of us normal people, they are very useful so please just ignore the complainers :)

    I got my $850 upgrade and think the price is just fine. I'm really looking forward to the next release!
     
  30. Aras

    Aras

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    Well, of course DirectX does not work on Linux. Just like it does not work on a Mac. Unity uses whatever rendering API exists on a platform; which is: DirectX 9 (Windows), soon DirectX 11 (Windows), OpenGL (Mac soon Linux), OpenGL ES (iOS Android), Stage3D (Flash), kind-of-but-not-quite DirectX 9 (Xbox 360), libGCM (PS3), some sort of Nintendo API (Wii). Nothing changes in 4.0 here, except there's one more (DX11) rendering API thrown into the mix.

    No. It's a full, real, "native" port.
     
  31. Alienchild

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    The price is a bit high in my opinion, though I realize I am not purchasing 4.0 but 4.x, which means all the other updates that comes along. On the other hand, you yourself have clearly stated that 3.x would be a long generation with lots of new improvements. You sort of half-delivered on that promise, with a slightly low main version lifetime but with lots of rather good updates. However I do not feel that some of the core issues have been addressed; the GUI as mentioned countless of times, is almost pure garbage. Worse in my opinion though is the state of the terrain tool. In this day and age one would expect to be able to have bumpmaps, relief mapping or whatever else is the norm in modern day engines. A simple diffuse map means I will have to look elsewhere for solutions and use sets of models instead (or a combination thereof).

    What I would have liked to see though would be some sort of advanced and optimized voxel terrain engine, something that lets us build worlds in proper 3d, along with automated processes for texturing based on angle and direction (an overpass could have dirt underneath and grass on top, for example), where you could paint using a pre-defined "area". Oh well, I'm dreaming, but at least give us bump mapping, better painting tools and more textures in the current terrain tool ;)
     
  32. kablammyman

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    this is all I want, and I'm sure the people who are upset feel the same way. New features are great, but not when there are old features to fix! I would think it goes without saying that if a feature doesn't work as well as advertised, then expecting it to be fixed in subsequent updates shouldn't be too much to ask.
     
  33. artonator

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    Is there a way to upgrade my 2.* to 3.5? .. I really don`t need 4.0 at this moment though it seems option to upgrade to 3.5 has disappeared and now I am kinda forced to upgrade to 4.0 and pay for higher price tag.


    I have pro version and an iphone pro .
     
  34. kenlem

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    OK. I'm need to figure out what to do. I currently have Unity Pro, iPhone Pro and Android Basic.

    Can't afford the full upgrade, so I'd like to go with Unity 4 Free, iPhone Basic and Android Basic. I think I can pre-order iPhone Basic 4 for about $400, get the $200 coupon then use that towards Android Basic. Sound about right?
     
  35. Tseng

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    No, you get the voucher only with Unity4 Pro purchase
     
  36. Starsman Games

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    This brings up a very interesting question about licensing:

    We cant mix Pro and Free licenses, but is it "allowed" to "downgrade" a studio to all free during this version upgrade change? I can see some people deciding Unity 4 Pro upgrade not being economically viable, but Unity 4 Free + Mobile Basic satisfying their development needs. As long as that indivdual or studio is not making over 100k/year and all their licenses are downgraded to free/basic... is it fair game?
     
  37. Code_Of_Honour

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    Interesting idea...but it seems a bit of an odd decision. You'd be cutting out a bunch of features, and getting a few new features that (apparently) nobody wants. Still, would like to know more about this.
     
  38. Fireblade

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    Wow, the new functions look really great,
    Direct X11, Linux and Flash :)

    But will students also be able to Pre-Order Unity 4?
    Studica still sells only Unity3.

    And will the Unity Pro 4.x Secondary School Student Edition also include Flash?
     
  39. Starsman Games

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    In my current game, other than video play back (that's buggy and I really cant use) I think I have no features I need for any of my two existing titles. I already forgoe it on the Android version since I am basic there.

    I don't think I would downgrade to Basic, but am curious of the viability of such a path none the less (Apple may force me to upgrade out of the blue and I may not be able to afford or justify the upgrade at the time.)
     
  40. Code_Of_Honour

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    Good point, with the new screen ratio possibly coming around...yeah, I guess if you're one of those Pro users who never uses any of the features you paid for :p . Will be interesting if this is allowed lol...

    **Edit** Off-topic, I know, but will you just look at the amount of lurkers which this announcement has conjured up from the depths of the forums? I'd almost say there are more of them posting here than there are regular posters...
     
  41. aubergine

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    Features for the 4.0 is not impressive at all except directx 11 support which is enough for me to buy it though.
    Still, you should add more indepth details, especially if there is a decent gui or not. It is already so sad that the most sold assetstore item is a gui product.

    I personally dont care about linux or flash (unless its both ways that we can export to flash AND import flash movies into Unity as well)
     
  42. Code_Of_Honour

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    Nope, they confirmed already that there will be no new GUI system in 4.0. The existing one is "a bit faster" in 4.0, but no new system :( On another note, they said that they'll add more details as they get closer to release. :p
     
  43. SevenBits

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    14,154
    people do care.
     
  44. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    You can just duplicate the app icon. Not exactly the most super-space efficient, but with terabytes of storage these days, not really a problem. Also you might be able to do something with linking, not sure. Or you can make a bit of Applescript to do the terminal launch, and run that from an icon. In any case, you can solve that right now without paying anything.

    Nobody ever claimed that, so I'm not sure what the point is in setting up such straw-man arguments.

    --Eric
     
  45. superpig

    superpig

    Quis aedificabit ipsos aedificatores? Unity Technologies

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    Heh, no - it has 14,154 votes on Feedback, which means that at most 14,154 different people have cared at some time or another enough to feed votes in. That feedback item's been around for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of votes there from people who voted back in, like, 2008, and who don't even use Unity any more.

    I'm hoping that internally UT can see how voting numbers have built up over time, or at least what fraction of the votes have been cast by people who logged into Feedback in the past 3 months, but in general, this is one of the big problems with the raw voting system used by UserVoice - it assumes that users will keep coming back and tending to their indicated preferences.
     
  46. Aras

    Aras

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    Actually I'm interested: when you say you want DX11, what do you think you need it for?

    Trying to differentiate between "oh yeah, I could totally use some append-consume unordered access views in my shaders right now; and I'm eating device memory barriers for breakfast" and "I've heard DX11 is like totally awesome, but I don't really know" ;)

    Most people of course fall somewhere in the middle between those two examples... I'm interested to know what the expectations and balance is.
     
  47. kenlem

    kenlem

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    OK, that sort of figure.

    Damn... I have Unity Pro and iPhone Pro and they don't do anything for me. I'm going to have to shell out the full $400 for iPhone basic then I can upgrade the free Android basic license I got for $250. Sheesshh... can't win.
     
  48. SevenBits

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    I'd agree with all those solutions, except of course duplicating the application bundle. Plus, opening the terminal really isn't that bad when you think about it, unless you are of course doing it all the time.

    There are better games than that for Linux. Though I'll admit that they're all online shooters, and none look as good as some games on Windows (well, at least the native ones). Though hopefully now the Unity export function will change all that; I can't wait! I've been looking for an excuse to get a publisher account on the Ubuntu Software Center. Now I've got one.
     
  49. TheLorax

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    But even with this route aren't we losing money? I also own the 3 Pro products and the upgrade price for all at once is much more than I can afford.

    If you go with free edition and Basic iOS ($400), and then choose to upgrade to iOS Pro, doesn't the $400 come of the full price of $1500? So you end up paying $400 + $1100 for a $850 upgrade? It's been so long since I upgraded anything, I can't remember.

    I too remember rushing to buy whatever was just released - I got one of the Android Pro/Nexus One packages from way back. This release is really giving me pause. Wait and see I guess.

    TheLorax
     
  50. thesaint1987

    thesaint1987

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    Well for me it is tesselation... And shader model. Additionally it makes life for engine developers a lot easier when it comes to combining HDR, deferred rendering and MSAA ^^. It supports multi-threaded rendering (to some extend). And a lot of other stuff I already forgot.
     
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