Discussion understanding level - design as a beginner . . .

so, as someone that thinks Unity is an amazing engine, and also now can code bec. visual scripting has been added, made a simple Tomb Raider - controller, and is going to add a raycast // no-clipping camera, it's now at the issue, or topic of level - design, or what's a good approach to level - design . . .

there are several #problems, namely that the story doesn't necessitate levels, a simple example, there's some trouble, hero then shows up, beats the criminals, faces a boss, and ' game over ', in theory to tell that story one just needs a few screens, 5 - 10 gang - bangers, and a boss, then it's done, or roll also credits, the problem is that it'd take a few minutes to complete an entire game, and it's be almost a waste of effort to make the stuff in a video - game engine, learning to code, art, overall script, other stuff . . .

that's where perhaps level - design is an important point, and one of the goals of making a video - game is to effectively, fast, and also reliably make good levels, areas, or event - zones, where stuff happens, or the story, or message of the title takes place, and perhaps this is the point . . .

to make a book, one writes 500 - 600 pages of text, where most of it is filler, descriptive, various dialogue, or description of the setting, or events -- in a video - game one makes levels that work as filler, points-of-interest, or narrative // event - places, and that is what makes books, also video - games good

as an example, right now trying to make a Tomb Raider - clone, and esp. for the earlier titles the levels were almost content, or game-play-elements themselves, ie. figuring how to get across levels, mazes, various puzzles, or where-is-door stuff was sort - of the ' game - play ', or at least part of the challenges, and that's what made me think bit over what good level - design, obstacle-course-elements, where-is-door, and perhaps the rare avoid-some-boss places is, or how one makes a good level, or if there are at least a few good places to learn from // study the more classic, or titles known for better level - design . . .

so, the questions are . . . .

1. why is level - design important, should it be taken seriously
2. what are the best places to learn level - design
3. does it make sense to study particular titles, or classic series
4. is there a ' logical ', or reliable way of making good level - design
5. does it make sense to call level - design an important artistic // creative discipline

not sure there's a simple answer, or any way to actually learn this stuff, also have never made a single level before, right now am trying to make my first level over a Tomb Raider - clone, have gotten this far, and was wondering if there was a way to learn this, or understand level - design bit better before trying to make some wild, or near - AAA titles ( don't laugh, scope-limit-is-real ) . . . .



have made simple blocks, added bit collision, and idea is to copy - paste simple shapes // retro - style content into a level, and figure simple jump - mechanics based on the environment, ie. character can reach this particular height, jump goes over 4 m distance, so it's all sort - of ' math ', or half - geometry based mechanics, where the level - design also ' plays ' on those systems, or there's a perhaps ' symphony ' of elements, level - details, and various features . . . .



anyway, the goal is to make a bit tribute over the first Tomb Raider - titles, and there were a ton of traversal - puzzles, or jump - mechanics, and overall just wondering what good level - design is, if there are rules of the ' trade ', or design, or if one wants to learn more then where to start // find better examples . . . .

 

Google "game level blockout" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. The key thing is to understand the game and gameplay first.

 

that's one answer, was more thinking of a debate, various how-to, or perhaps think bit over the stuff here // modest brain - storm, anyway, that was almost specifically the answer didn't ask for, sort - of more interested in a simple, perhaps also educational debate here, or perhaps what could figure oneself // learn over a group also, etc etc . . .

having thought a bit over the stuff, think perhaps there are several good reasons to make either impressive, or then relevant, or topic - structured levels, if that makes sense, ie. the level - design helps tell the story, or elaborates on the setting, or various world - details, for instance suppose a level is taking part in a poor // mostly - criminalized part of town, then the graphics, overall level - design, decals, or effects could help tell that story, in that sense level - design has a place, or serves a purpose beyond more being filler, or effectively noise over story - telling . . .

1. good levels can almost be ' characters ', or important fiction themselves
2. correct, sensible, or careful // accurate level - design furthers the plot, suspense, or experience
3. levels, areas, or visual - design helps create atmosphere, or tells the setting
4. effects, sound, and lighting are part of level - design, or ' finishes ' the level​

overall just trying to make sense of, have bit philosophy, or other stuff over level - design, before more, or less ' jumping ' in, or going for the more random approach, there's nothing wrong with that, overall just like to have thought a bit over stuff before doing various, and have bit information, perhaps clear goals, or bit overview of something before getting started, have also been learning indie - dev for almost years now, have a ton of ideas, ' visions ', and enjoy talking, or debating the finer points of art, entertainment, or modern theater // fiction . . .

my goal isn't just to throw something together // see-what-happens, it is to work from knowledge, learning, or perhaps structure, and that requires bit thinking first, getting at least an overview, and having a good idea of how // why to make stuff, or where level - design fits the overall creative vision, system, or also writing . . .

for instance, making a level over a grid - design // by-eight stuff allows me also to design game - play around the stuff, and it's important to have these ideas before getting started, also to know if the goal of the stuff is just to make some graphics, or ' places to walk ', or important traversal, hidden-item, or locate-stuff puzzles, if one doesn't think of these things in advance one doesn't know ' why ', ' for what ', or ' any goal ' one is even making the levels, and at least for me like to work in a bit more careful, perhaps also methodical way, that was what also the goal of the post, or also questions, how one does that // learns the ' art ' of level - design, or structure - overview, etc etc

1. how, are there rules, good advice
2. why, does it serve the content, fiction, or drama
3. player - experience, is that important, or details
4. effort, training, quality, cost -- important when making a bigger titles // budget, or scope - stuff​

these are the questions immediately think of, and perhaps thought it'd be interesting to debate these things with other devs, people that have worked over pro - stuff, or just get an idea // what do you think, etc etc

everyone is different, also work different ways, have different goals, or even ' ideals ' over making content, at least for me it's more careful, over learning, methodical, or think-before-doing, that's also what makes it fun, or half - interesting for me to make video - games, also having tried to ' blindly ' do what other people do, follow ( random ) industry - advice, after several years have more, and more found my own way // tend to be perhaps more philosophical, perhaps over classic art, and overall bit cautious, over learning, or ordered structure

put another way, like to think bit over philosophy, and also have a ton of careful thinking, ideas, or then planning when making stuff, be that almost anything, indie - dev, you name it // idea is to have a debate, share various perspectives, and perhaps also learn bit stuff over dev, also indie culture, whatever // how to make video - games, code, design, or lore

 

This is the kind of topic it's easy to bogged down in theory and ideals. I think a really good first step in evaluating your level design ability is to honestly ask the question of your level: "Is it fun yet?" You've listed a lot of fairly specific goals you want your levels to fill, but all of that feels like nice-to-have "icing on the cake" to me. Players won't care about the subtle way your level can be considered a character if the level isn't fun and they quit.

If you want to think of level design as a kind of art form (I'm inclined to agree with that), then think of the way an artist works. You probably won't find a lot of artists who read book after book about art theory and history before picking up a pencil or brush. An artist needs to get their hands dirty, fail a lot, and refine their craft.

I started to seriously consider level design about five years ago at this point, and I remember having kind of similar ideas as you've mentioned. Ultimately, it's hard enough to get a level to both "make sense" and "be fun", that all the other stuff is pretty much master-level design, as far as I'm concerned. A big part of getting good at anything is simply doing it, and accepting that you'll fail a lot. I appreciate you wanting to reach for loftier goals, but I really recommend you start simple, make some levels, get people to try them (honest feedback from strangers is better, not your friends), and see if you can make a fun experience before you try getting your level design to server multiple purposes. Just getting a fun experience is hard enough.

So, I know it's kind of fun thinking about this stuff, but I'd personally recommend shelving this for a while until you've made a lot of levels. But if you want something to read, I do remember enjoying Jesse Schell's book on game design. It's worth a read. But I'd say just focus on making enjoyable experiences for a couple of dozens level before worrying about anything else.

 

now, that's a very insightful, and also helpful list of advice, that's something prob. gonna want to do, or at least try and make something over, it at least makes sense to work that way, and, when making a game, or interactive ' visions ' one should also keep in mind player experience, sense of reward, challenge, and either fun // coolness - quality . . .

that makes a ton of sense if that's the goal of making a video - game, to arrive at those things, and perhaps where the rare masters get all those things right // iconic names also over the industry, or famous titles, however there are a few things where the kind of project working on myself differs from making random fun, or ' filler - levels ', and that's over working from a specific story, trope, or fiction - structure, ie. a ' book ' // carefully written script, my goal is not merely to create fun, or ' epic ' moments, but more to tell the story well, on it's own principles, or tropes . . .

for that reason, and it being also reasonable, want to try and figure how to best use level - design to tell stories, events, or various culture ( over a fictional world, or setting ), ie. it's important for me to approach level - design as a story - teller, or try to ' optimize ' that element before getting started, that's where there are different ways of arriving at a level, area, or limited - spaceholder, if that's the word at all, or some ' place ', or zone where the stuff happens, the fiction takes place, realize it might be quite different from what other people do, and working more from random, or anything-fun, or could-make-sense is of course a good way of making content, however overall more approaching it almost as a ' classic ' discipline, or want to think bit over the stuff, or design first, and perhaps have either goals, or design - topics that want to achieve before even starting, sure could just start making various levels, perhaps doesn't really matter, however overall enjoy the process of figuring, or ' understanding ' principles, and perhaps also that they lead to better quality, fiction, or consistency ( structure-of-levels . . . )

however, one could prob. make levels in a ton of ways, some people work better from random, copy - paste something else, kit - bashing, or etc etc, also don't have a problem with that, it's more tend to enjoy these either debates, and working in a more careful, or so - so systematical way, have design - rules, or goals before even starting, and find this at least for me is a fun, or interesting way of arriving at levels, even if other people disagree // work other ways . . .

IMAGE # 001 -- rules, goals, design - structure, visual, structural, and over-realism decisions​

there are a ton of ways of working, atm want to try and work like this // if nothing else, is going to learn also from making various errors, might have a bit of fun making all these rules, or pre - decision stuff, and have bit a debate over classic design, or arch - design principles . . . .

also, think it's fun to debate culture, design, or various art - direction over stuff like this, also trying to learn the techniques, or ' style ' of the classic masters of art, or design, it's a different way of working, however there's a ton of ways of doing things // ' getting - results ' . . . .

 

here are some principles, one could base level - design over // pre - viz architectural - etc etc . . .

1. embrace // experience -- how does it feel to walk into the room, ' atmosphere ', or design - topics
2. lighting
3. structure, also set - composition
4. details // texture -- 5. effects // dynamics
6. vision // overall -- 7. clarity // direction

that's how a classic thinker approaches level - design, bit similar to how a classic master makes a painting, image, or sculpture, also design, it's the rules that are behind the more classic // iconic-known buildings, and it's also because have been learning over the classic masters for quite a while, and want to try and make bit tribute, or perhaps references to iconic buildings, or historical architecture . . .

IMAGE # 001 - classic structure, direction, and quality​

IMAGE # 002 - modest structure, quality, overall muted vision // baroque clarity​

anyway, it's bit more over fun, also trying to learn the classic masters, and one doesn't have to work this way, it's more a way of arriving at architecture, or also level - design based on ' rules ', recipes, or then various principles, it's also how most classic paintings are made, except over architecture the question of ' space ', and ' light ' is also important, it's just a different // few-people-today way of making art, sculpture, or also buildings // spaces, suppose a town - square, perhaps a bit old - fashioned . . . .

point is also having these rules, or design - principles makes it bit easier to make levels, or one doesn't work entirely from random principles // copy - paste what others have made, perhaps making it more original, ' intended ', or from an overview, it's simply this, to have rules, principles, or specific-ideas // architecture-goals before even starting . . . .

 

I think that might get you into trouble.

Maybe a good example I like, in keeping with the "art" theme, is the work of Picasso. I expect most people think of Picasso and picture his experimental stuff, cubism and other "weird" looking art that he's best known for. But I recall a nice progression of his work where at a young age, he had already mastered realistic painting. Only after mastering that did he go on to "break the rules" (as they say) and start pushing the limits of his art.

It kind of feels like you want to skip over the part where you have to get good at level design, and instead have a perfect vision of level design appear in your mind. I'd suggest that it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to do really advanced, complex level design without honing your craft on simpler concepts first.

I think it's understandable, but ultimately not the right approach, to try to be "'efficient" about this. That mindset kind of ignores the reality that you're going to need to try over and over (and fail over and over) before you're likely to produce something of any significant quality. No matter how much you try to learn ahead of time, there's no replacement for doing and practicing.

I'm not trying to talk you out of thinking about this stuff. Just don't let it get in the way of you actually making stuff. Just make a lot of stuff, and see what works and what doesn't. This is the kind of thing that's exceptionally hard to predict whether it'll work or not.

 

yes, think said it in my description, also a high - func autist, and can sort - of handle really big amounts of information, or remember half - books, or also libraries, that's where it's a bit weird how tend to work, for instance here are some of the ideas get from looking at video - games, bit weird, same thing happens when looking at symbols, or architecture . . .

IMAGE # 001 -- one interpretation of how classic masters, or modernist expressionism could look over arch - viz​

anyway, it might be a bit weird, but sort - of have the thinking, or approach of a high - func autist, and tend to go into all kinds of theories, structure, or various design before even doing anything, it's also bit fun, and have been looking at the classic masters for several years, the idea is also try and make something more for the pro - art people, or that could be talked bit about in museums, or more classic painting - masters, overall want my Tomb Raider - titles to be like that, or in the school, or classic traditions of those masters because those early titles also had that, etc etc . . .

IMAGE # 002 -- one could find references, or clues to classic masters in the early Tomb Raider - series​

that's also why it's the goal, and overall looking for ideas, or also debate over the stuff, it's going to be bit weird, look old - fashioned, however also be a tribute to those early games // retro - style quality, or direction, it's more for fun, also a challenge for an autist, in #theory could remember all art perhaps ever made, the ' rules ', or principles it was made over, and also how to make the stuff, it's mostly because the Tomb Raider - titles also had that . . . .



high - func autist, could almost remember an entire library, or half a phone - book, tend to be ordered, methodical, or very theoretical about making stuff, art, code, effects, or almost anything, however also like to debate, teach, or understand various traditions, or classic master - principles, it's more, or less for fun, and also to make something like the early Tomb Raider - stuff, or learning new things // principles . . . .

 

perhaps to explain the way it works, if know enough about a master, painter, or some ' work ', almost able to make it into ' rules ', or principles, bit over the same way people use procedural generation to make levels, and could make a ton of stuff, if know enough about a master, or then ' technique ' could sort - of paint like them, or figure if they'd made architecture how that'd also have looked // my bit weird mind sees code, symbols, or ' ideals ' everywhere . . .



if look at enough art, at least could figure the ' architecture ' of a classic master, and idea is to have bit fun // also, maybe a surprise for more classic stuff, or also museums . . .

it's going to take a few weeks, also to get the right references, then could make an entire video - game in the style of Michelangelo, or say Mr. da Vinci, idea is also to make something over the older Tomb Raider - titles, that perhaps because of limited palette, or graphics were half - classic masterpieces, or over old - fashioned painter stuff, principles, or ' vision ' . . . .

anyway, might be a bit weird, not sure it's cool if a high - func autist makes a few video - games in Unity, idea is also more to send it to classic art - people, or also perhaps museums, bit also for fun, and to try and figure the ' rules ', or procedural - gen over the classic masters, if they'd more been making ' spaces ', or ach - viz, it's also going to take a few weeks to figure the ' math ', or how to make classic ' architecture ', it's not a think known tradition because it depends on light, and also ' space ', or the mood // experience of a room can't entirely be classic art . . . .

 

At this point I figure we're both coming at this from possibly opposite directions. For me, pretty much the only thing I really care about when someone's playing my game is whether they're having fun doing it. That's what guides me, for the most part. Sometimes I manage to make a thing that looks kind of cool, but usually the best I can hope for is that I've designed an experience that makes someone smile for a moment. My game wouldn't be in a museum, or win any awards for its visuals, or anything else. But hopefully it's just kind of a fun.

So I'll hold off on further advice, since you probably are aiming to make something that's beyond my experience or skill. I'd usually say that level designs requires a very high level of empathy (seeing things as your players will see them), rather than just some grand vision for how you want the experience to be. But, maybe that doesn't apply to grander, more esoteric games that are closer to artwork than a game for the sake of fun.

Anyway, no harm in talking about things. Best of luck with your pursuit.

 

#thx, and also like your ideas, and going to try and have bit fun, or make stuff more for fun, or what makes sense to the ' player ', or perhaps audience, think overall there's a bunch of traditions, or ' ways ' of making art, also more levels, or ' spaces ', and one very sensible // very-smart way of doing things is to think of fun, or what the player experiences . . .

overall, not into telling other people they're wrong, or that one has to be a classic master // very - trained architect to even make stuff, and that overall what making won't ' sell that much ', or be overly - popular, it's just a bit different way of working, and something working on because the older Tomb Raider - titles had a weird look, odd palette, or not sure for reasons of computer - stuff didn't look as good, ' photoshopped ', perhaps more rasterized, or something . . .

it's just a goal for my first few video - games, after that the idea is to try and make something like ' iconic ', or semi - flawless stuff, however want to try and practice bit over rules, or design - systems, or what today is almost the same as procedural - gen of levels // goal is, to make something like this, bit over also classic masters . . . .

IMAGE # 001 -- ' Until Dawn ' had almost classic, or half - Michelangelo effects, lighting, or ' vision '​

IMAGE # 002 -- the overall hues, saturation, and lighting was almost an Michelangelo - work​

it's that kind of stuff want to make, perhaps not over horror, however right now need to get practice over simpler stuff, and also figure how // why it makes sense to make that kind of art, presentation, or also graphics, it's also going to take a few years before at that level, going to need a quality - story, or then setting, or really cool early - design, the goal is more to make something fun, ' wild ', or perhaps legendary, also over level - design, etc etc . . . .

 

alright, after thinking over it for a few hours ( again ), have decided these are my eight goals for level - design . . .

1. levels are more than A-to-B ' spaceholders ', they contain important information, topics, or structure
2. the level itself is a ' character ', or important for story, or fiction
3. every area, room, or corner serves a purpose, if nothing else to be good art, or ' level - drama '
4. the art, design, and structure of each level is sensible, tells the story, or serves various purpose
5. levels are shaped around important items, quests, or story - telling, and as such are not ' random '
6. the two systems of ' effects ', and ' lighting ' are part of the level, or elaborates the level - design
7. the fidelity, details, quality-of-effects, and standard-of-light should be uniform, sensible, and readable
8. finding one's way around the map, or areas should be made easier by relevant clues, or design

these are #technically ordinary to most video - games, or custom // hand - crafted content, however a few things are perhaps important to give bit more details over, each ' level ' being a character means that it's unique, recognizable, ' iconic ', and important art, references, or topics, perhaps the best of example of something like that is ' Howl's Moving Castle ', where an area, or ' level ' was iconic, recognizable, and important for the story // content . . .


regardless one liked the movie, the hulking, walking, steampunk-esque castle in ' Howl's Moving Castle ' was awesome in every way, evocative, brilliant design, and served both a purpose, and also told the story ( better ), or added to the entire story, or creative work, that's an example of a level, that's ' more ' than just a level, it's iconic, other stuff, or design . . .

to give an idea of what point 4 is about, in the movie ' Wrath of the Titans ' there was a labyrinth that moved, or shifted, and more, or less was the entire ' monster ', story, or central topic for several minutes, that's an example where the level is more than just the level, or takes on a bigger meaning, or relevance than just being a ' room ', random, or filler . . .



anyway, a few important over level - design, or at least goals think make sense // have seen before . . .

 

one of the #problems of level - design, at least as someone that has no experience with the stuff, is that there are various goals, or ' ideals ' also based on the industry, or what's popular, sells, or is seen as quality, usually one sees level - design as serving different goals, and these are difficult to balance . . .

1. the level - design, details, or environment - art should make sense, look ' good ', or impressive
2. each level should last say 20 - 30 minutes, to give a coherent, or ordered experience
3. the themes, setting should be an important part of the level - design, art, or overall direction
4. levels should conform to quests, items, and not be ' natural ', more made for story - telling, effect, or art​

these things are difficult to balance, there are a myriad of ways, or function to achieve, and if there was a rule it is perhaps that ' level is a many, or varied things ', and ' the goal is to arouse excitement, fun, or interest ', one could say the process of level - design isn't natural, or over logic, necessarily, it's more to arrive at a theme, art - direction, or result that's supposed to evoke whatever is intended . . .

think perhaps overall the four ' principles ', or goals above are what one needs to try and balance, and remember that level - design is to create art, settings, or various creative // cultural goals, and that the goal of level - design is not just to create rooms, or places where events take place, also to make something that lasts a set amount of time over a set number of levels, for instance, level 1 - intro, 30 minutes, level 2 - cave level, 30 minutes, level 3 - plane level, 30 minutes, and somehow achieving all this symmetry, design, and structure is more the goal of level - design, or that it is perhaps a more ' artistic ', or cultural - direction, or that is also important when designing levels . . .

the result is this, people make levels for different reasons // goals . . .

1. artistic goals, ' vision ', or design
2. to tell a setting, topics, or more information
3. to be almost educational, or over historical results // accuracy
4. to be a random // mixed-any place, where stuff happens, more a random - gen​

that's where level - design is a ' many different, or varied things ', and perhaps defies definition, or there are different way, or principles at arriving at the stuff, and that there formally isn't a correct way, more a list of generally-seen, or most-ordinary ways of arriving at a level, area, or ' zone ' where stuff happens, stories are told, history, or culture is debated, or it's a ' scaffold ' for events, or explaining settings, or topics, etc etc . . . .

overall, think it's quite confusing, and want to learn bit over the stuff, also different ways of doing stuff, at least before jumping in it pays to know how // why of something, and it's also a quite interesting topic, and as a fan of most things over video - games want to understand how it works, get better at it, or learn how the greatest video - games ever were made, and also how the iconic levels, or 3D - quality was made, as part of the trade // indie - dev . . . .

​

 

not sure, it might be a bit weird over how a ( high - func ) autist works, just tend to be very methodical, make also ton of systems, or perhaps to some ' over - think ' stuff, it's just to make sure know what doing // how to work, and also because it's a ton of fun, also to learn either indie - dev, or then to talk bit culture, understand the stuff, or then have various debates, overall think it's an interesting topic, ' level - design ', however tend to make these amazing, perhaps bit too-advanced systems, or ways to make stuff, however it's more to have fun, etc etc . . .

anyway, one way of getting more information, is to ask what are all the reasons people have for making levels, or areas-of-play, or what one calls the stuff, and perhaps look there for ideas over how to work oneself, a few examples, think also said bit over before . . .

1. perspective of functionality, or necessity, make these rooms, important for the content
2. historical, or otherwise accuracy, for instance locations in Assassin's Creed, tends to be historical
3. to further tell the story, topics, atmosphere, or events, a king does stuff, one needs a castle, or fortress - level
4. focus is on art, making something that looks either cool, fun, or perhaps relevant for the setting
5. for stuff like sports - games, a soccer - stadium, tennis - arena are more, or less defined, however needed

if one looks at all the different ways people work over level - design, or how to get from idea, to a prototype, to finished content, or design, there's a ton of different ways, or ' methods ', and it might make sense to know more about the stuff, at least to have a few ideas of how to make stuff oneself // best-individual-method, or how one prefers to work, or produce the content, why not spend a little effort on learning the best, most-used, or what-others work over, and try and pick what makes sense, or the better way of working, or at least more individual taste, or practice . . . .



that's one way of making a level, or to get from idea, to pre - viz, to also production, 1. make a floor - plan, then 2. make a few pre - viz corners, or elements from the project, and 3. sketch a few objects, important interactables, or furniture from the content, and make ( quality ) sketches of the most important locations, etc etc . . . .

not sure, it's more a bit fun debate, and also figuring how one goes from idea to a ' level - design ', or late pre - viz, or perhaps production, that's also how a more traditional architect probably makes the stuff // bit over indie - dev . . . .

 

alright, after thinking a ton over the stuff, have made one video over the topic // going to stop here, unless there are any questions, think it's a cool topic, and it's also fun to figure stuff oneself, or it's nice to learn bit new stuff . . .

that's all, really enjoy philosophical debates, also over culture, or art, and find it interesting to learn for myself, or be bit creative, also over how // why to do stuff, or enjoy a lecture on a serious, or then cultural topic, that's all . . .