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Ultimate Water System - The most advanced realtime water simulation

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by Moonlit-Games-Studio, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    Interestingly this is in my opinion exactly the sort of attitude that is killing the asset store. By killing the goose laying the golden eggs the primary loser is the general indie developer who uses the asset store as a place to learn and get things done. The asset store is the reason I think that Unity has succeeded as well as it has in the indie community.

    The primary reasons that developers leave the asset store are twofold I think - its not financially viable - and trolls. I have dealt with a bunch of them and even today I read another one putting my assets down in a review they left on a competitors asset as they have done now on a bunch of my competitors assets because, for whatever reason this toxic individual has taken a dislike to me. I have talked publishers down from leaving the store a bunch of times and have seriously considered walking away myself and going back to the commercial world as its easier to make a living and I am paid well and treated with respect. Fortunately for me, and for the people who like my tools, I stay here because I love the work, and the positive aspects of the community generally far outweighs the bad.

    As @recon0303 said, the price here is nothing compared to commercial rates, and when developers get burned we all lose because their products get abandoned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  2. coverpage

    coverpage

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    Well we hope you'd stay forever as you make very high quality assets. Regarding trolls, I think it goes both ways. I've seen many fans of your assets putting down the competition as well. I think it would be useful if all publishers criticize this behavior and reviews as I think it's discouraging for all parties. Constructive criticism is of course not part of trolling and the line is pretty clear.

    I don't mind a 175usd water simulation asset as long as it has longevity and there is more details on how accurately simulate fluid Dynamics. As from my understanding, conventional accurate simulation using finite element methods are very (edit: computationally) expensive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
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  3. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    I agree - I detest trolls in all their forms whether for or against my products. It recently came to my attention that one had made a death threat to one of my competitors. I was appalled and contacted my competitor directly to share my support and solidarity for him and his work.
     
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  4. snacktime

    snacktime

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    I was just saying how it works.

    Prices in this industry especially for software were much higher then other industries for many years. That they are dropping is not a bad thing. I remember this same argument back when open source was relatively new. That it would just lower quality and hurt vendors. What happened is it enabled a whole generation of startups that never would have been able to exist and created a ton of wealth.

    Did it hurt some vendors? Of course. So the lesson is don't be on the wrong end of an industry trend. Be out in front of it.

    I don't understand comparing asset store stuff to what commercial companies pay for. That's apples and oranges. If someone has an example I'd love to see it. I'll bet it is easy to show why it's priced differently. The market doesn't suffer fools or products that are priced at several hundred percent markups with no difference in value. Which means if those products exist of equal value, fools are buying them.
     
  5. snacktime

    snacktime

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    Btw while I do have some empathy for asset store vendors being individuals. I just have no sympathy at all for the industry, because it wasn't that long ago I was getting reamed by them for low quality high priced software. Software that is now generally free (and far better quality).
     
  6. StevenPicard

    StevenPicard

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    I hate to derail this thread but... Adam, you better not leave. You are among the best asset developers! Your assets rock and you offer awesome support. There are a handful of others like Jason that I really want to stick around.

    As far as this asset goes it definitely looks AAA quality. However, clarifying whether this works on mobile and VR (and rivers and streams) would help some of us make a decision on purchasing this (for me it would have to be down the road due to the price - but - that price does give you some amazing water!)
     
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  7. recon0303

    recon0303

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    there is a huge difference, would you rather have people making your tools that don't have a clue?? we seen enough of them . for quality......The old saying goes, YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU get.... Now if an asset is high price and there is no value of course that common sense... But I have seen terrain tools priced way to cheap in my opinion, vs higher prices, which I still think the price is fine.. since I get what I paid for ..so you have no argument from me.. there. but my issue I see people trolling, bitching, about prices of games, assets for to long ,and being a programmer and artist, it gets tiring, listening to people complain about prices. So far as I'm concerned if the WATER asset holds to its true self as a AAA water shader, $175 is nothing for a tool like this...now if it don't hold to that standard, I could understand , your point...but by the video's , it does look like this could be that standard, but I can't be for sure yet, never used.. to many indie devs bitch and say oh I do this for a hobby, guess what thats your problem..... I have many hobbies and they cost me thousands....so if people want game development for a hobby be prepared to pay...That isn't the developers problem or fault, you can't afford something. I'm just saying this in general...Back on topic....


    The asset looks really nice from the videos, I hope it does hold to what it claims to be and look forward to using....I wouldn't worry about the nay sayers about the price...I bought World Creator Standalone for 300 bucks, and it was MONEY well spent, many others have as well....
     
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  8. recon0303

    recon0303

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    Welcome to game development, and software, get used to it, I been in this industry 20 plus years, and I win some lose some,. that is the chance we take... Some tools could be around for years, and BAM they are out dated...and something better came out.......and that old tool collects dust or goes free.....That is software, that is game development...If you been in this field, a long time you should know better ..if you haven't get used to it...This will keep happening to...not much you can do ...besides, buy stuff from companies who keep Innovating.... best of luck either way.
     
  9. snacktime

    snacktime

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    Same here 20+ years, I wasn't complaining really. It was more no sympathy for companies that were getting an easy ride and now they don't.

    And on your previous post, I thought I was clear I was talking about same value stuff. Of course actual quality carries a premium. I was trying to say that just because prices drop like a rock on software, it doesn't mean it's all lower quality. The opposite has been holding true for ever since I've been doing this, because much of it becomes a commodity more or less given time.

    What I was originally trying to do was help out. Realistic water is already a niche. If they just throw it out at a premium, a year from now it will largely be abandoned also, At a minimum no new regular features. I'll bank on that. I was trying to give ideas I thought might help that. They have the inherent quality and ability to take this water and dominate with it. But not as is, and not with their current pricing strategy.
     
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  10. Moonlit-Games-Studio

    Moonlit-Games-Studio

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    Hello Everyone!

    Sorry for not responding over the weekend, we'll try our best to answer your questions:

    PlayWay Water System is going to be moved to the Ultimate Games account on Asset Store

    What that means:
    1. Current PWS users will have option to upgrade PWS to UWS for additional $50 ($25 off = $100 + $50 vs $175)
    2. Moving PWS to Ultimate Games account does not mean that Moonlit or UG is responsible for PWS updates (it's still on zuzzu's team)
    3. UWS is a separate product, although based on PWS source, enhancing PWS features and adding completely new functionalities
    4. It will take some time to make the transfer, so please be patient until you'll be able to make the upgrade

    We will do our best to provide support for this asset, and we're looking forward to help you solve any issues you might encounter while using Ultimate Water System.

    UWS is based on latest beta of PWS; we've fixed many bugs and compatibility issues.
    UWS was tested in versions from 5.4.5 to 2017.1.1.
    We also tested in on HTC Vive - with no issues.

    Thank all of you guys who support us - we've put many months of hard work into this asset, and we hope that you'll find it satisfactory!
     
    iddqd, Fraconte, antoripa and 8 others like this.
  11. CaptainMurphy

    CaptainMurphy

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    That sounds great! It sounds like you are getting the ducks in a row for the work. Is there any chance of getting a private repository so we can log issues and see changes and possible do pulls for issues we find? We use Playway in a couple projects right now and one is a VR app that has been plagued by odd issues since the beginning and we would love to see those stomped out with the new system.
     
  12. Bartolomeus755

    Bartolomeus755

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    Yes that sounds great and with a fair upgrade fee. Thank you for the new infos!
     
  13. MCPGNZ

    MCPGNZ

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    Hi Everyone!

    I'm the tech person behind the UWS. I'll be responsible for support, fixes, etc. Feel free to PM me with any questions regarding UWS.

    As previously noted, we briefly tested the package on HTC Vive. But we'll create (probably today) simple demo scene (w/ HTC Vive) and post it for you (with the FPS count, etc.)

    Unfortunately it does not.

    You can change the underwater absorption rate, changing how the underwater looks. The physics simulation is highly tunable, so you probably will be able to create any behaviour needed. As for the fog, we've tested it with DeepSky Haze and it combines nicely.

    I've made few screenshots of different underwater absorption values:

    B.png

    A.png

    C.png
     

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  14. syscrusher

    syscrusher

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    This all seems perfectly reasonable to me. I paid circa $100 for PWS, so if I buy the upgrade I have in effect paid $150 for a top-level water system. I'm okay with that. Good tools are worth it.

    Is there an approximate timetable on when your web site may get updated with more documentation detail?
     
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  15. CaptainMurphy

    CaptainMurphy

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    @MCPGNZ Any examples of functional SSS? I could never get the last version of PW to show any kind of artistic level of SSS or sun shine through the waves.
     
  16. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

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    :) If you can make sure the test demo is running single pass VR it would be great.
     
  17. Kemonono

    Kemonono

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    Also interested in seeing how it performs in VR (oculus), preferably under different conditions/settings.
     
  18. CaptainMurphy

    CaptainMurphy

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  19. Ultimate_Games_SA

    Ultimate_Games_SA

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    Dear All,

    we - PlayWay S.A. confirm that PlayWay Water System will appear very soon on Ultimate Games profile,
    and there will be an option to make an upgrade from PWS to Ultimate Water System.

    Best,
    PlayWay S.A.
     
  20. Drowning-Monkeys

    Drowning-Monkeys

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    Well all of this is excellent to me, thanks guys. Looking forward to adding it to the game.
     
  21. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    Thanks for the response, @Moonlit-Games-Studio - that sounds perfectly reasonable. And I'm glad to see your posts, @MCPGNZ - I'm very interested to see and learn more info about UWS.
     
    Moonlit-Games-Studio likes this.
  22. recon0303

    recon0303

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    ya didn't mean you where complaining. I meant people in general sorry if I came off as you where. :) /cheers.
     
  23. ftejada

    ftejada

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    hi @Moonlit-Games-Studio !

    Thanks for the reply. I think it is very fair that there is an option to upgrade the store for a reduced price to PWS customers.

    As soon as you are you will have a new client!


    Now I would like to ask something:

    1) Are there UWS shore lines and waves breaking on the shores?
    If it is not so.
    2) Do you have plans to include them and what approximate time to do so?

    regards
     
  24. electric_jesus

    electric_jesus

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    Hi @MCPGNZ! Really glad somebody finally picked up development of this asset.
    Do you have plans on implementing distance blur? It would make underwater picture look even more realistic. And what about custom absorption settings per camera? Some versions of PW had had this feature, before it was broken in the latest beta. It would be quite useful to be able to switch between realistic high-absorption muddy view and low-absorption camera that provides a clear view of the scene.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  25. Teila

    Teila

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    Expensive software? Wow...how many folks buy 3ds Max in spite of the price. Or Substance Suite.

    Ultimate Water is a finished water system, not expensive software. If you can build something like it for less, then go for it. Now, this is not tested yet as there are no reviews and other than arguing about the price, I see no one here talking about it. But if it works as it says it does and the performance is not bad, then $175 for something I cannot make myself is fabulous.

    There IS a market for high priced quality stuff. There are many of us who prefer to buy stuff that is high quality rather than a bunch of $20 assets. Of course, most folks here are on strict budgets and cannot do so, but that is fine. There is plenty of other assets out there for less, like Aquas, which is very good. Expensive stuff may sell less, but they sell for more. Cheap stuff may sell a lot, but they sell for less. Profits are probably similar. But sadly, it is the good, AAA, dedicated developers who cannot afford to make stuff to sell at bargain prices. This is their job, there livelihood, and they have families. They are not doing this as a hobby most likely.

    Most folks who complain about price want the quality but cannot afford the asset's price. It is not about the market, it is about whether they can get something they want for less. Maybe complaining and trolling will force the developer to lower the price. Honestly, it is more likely to get them to pull out of the store altogether. We have already lost two very nice water systems. I fear this one will be next. I am already saving my money to buy it...which means no expensive games, no nights out, etc. It is worth it to me.

    As for death threats, harassment of competitors, downgrading posts on an asset that is free so never even have to try it to click, posting nasty things about developers in forums...that is all the symptom of an asset store with very selfish bunch of people who have started to coalesce around certain developers and use their loyalty as a weapon. It helps no one, not the developers they are fans of or the competitors. It certainly does not help the users of the asset store.

    I have seen prices fall drastically on the asset store and I have seen developers leave in droves in the past three years. Today, when I buy something, I have absolutely no idea if that person will be around to provide support in 6 months. We really need to start treating our developers as we would a contracted programmer/artist. We are getting non-exclusive items and tools from them. We should cherish them, not attack them.

    Save the attacks for those that do not deliver or those who ignore support requests, or those who treat customers with disdain.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
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  26. StevenPicard

    StevenPicard

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    Awesome comment! If a developer wants to sell their game and they want it to stand out as a professional game $175 for AAA water is worth it.
     
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  27. syscrusher

    syscrusher

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    That kind of behavior is rude, and it is unworthy of anyone who considers themselves a professional developer or artist. As usual, @Teila, you said what I had tried to say, but you did so more eloquently.

    Agreed. I have worked as a contract programmer and engineer for many years, and I also am in a supervisory position where I employ such people. In my world, the most expensive asset in the store (around US$3500) is a bargain if it avoids hiring a contract programmer for one 40 hour work week. I realize this is a different industry segment, but a complex asset's development time may be measured not in person-weeks but in person-years.

    I'm about to release for sale my first published asset, probably at a list price of $25 or less. I have about 200 hours of development in it so far, and counting, and I'll have to support it once it's on the market. Believe me, I don't expect to get rich off of the Asset Store.
     
  28. Kemonono

    Kemonono

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    Adding a comment on the price, as an end user.

    I'm not against the price. While it most definitely is of the higher end for most, I feel it's not outside of the area of reasonable pricing. It's got a lot to do about priorities, and water ranks pretty high up compared to other types of asset packages.
    But the price is still high enough that there can not be any risk involved in this not being usable for the intended purposes. And you can't really compare it to 3dsmax or Substance Designer as both of those programs lives inside it's own independent ecosystem and is not affected by outside change.
    I think what most is afraid of here is that it gets a few updates and then goes silent and eventually deprecated, which has not been an uncommon practice for large assets in the past years.

    Bottom line,
    If it can meet my needs, and I have a reasonable chance to test it, and it has support, I will purchase it for the listed price.
     
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  29. Moonlit-Games-Studio

    Moonlit-Games-Studio

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    Looks like bug tracker would be a better solution to your situation - we'll definitively think about how it can be arranged.

    Here is link to the documentation of UWS: Documentation (We've updated link in original post)

    As for the website - for now we'll stick with this forum ;)

    Currently, there is only "shore foam" implemented:
    - it's highly customizable so expect more than you can see in demo.

    It's also possible to make so called "rolling waves" - ones which don't break at their peak. You'd need supply heightmap used by UWS with your data about waves, just like our dynamic physics does. Little bit advanced, but I'm sure that @MCPGNZ could guide you through it.
     
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  30. elbows

    elbows

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    Excellent, music to my ears, I will become a customer of yours when the upgrade is available, cheers.
     
  31. Teila

    Teila

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    I agree. With two water systems already gone or almost gone, it is a huge risk.

    I want to see more than videos. I want to know what the performance is like compared to Unity water and others on the store like Suimono. I want to see details on what we can turn off and on to save on performance. I want to hear the opinions and see the reviews of others who have used this asset.

    I do not say this to insult the developers, but only because after some important assets have fallen by the wayside, and not just water, I think many of us are becoming a bit asset-shy.

    Reading posts by the original Play Water asset, which I never bought because it was already dying when I discovered I needed it, I feel a bit more confident in the new developers. But I do need much more information about this asset and the developers who are creating such a fabulous system, before I invest my hard earned money. :)

    So...waiting to hear what you all say before I dive in. lol

    P.S. Just noticed your documentation link. Thanks. :) Will do some reading.
     
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  32. syscrusher

    syscrusher

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    Thanks!
     
  33. Kemonono

    Kemonono

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    I've briefly looked through the documentation, I have a couple of questions.
    Is there a way to indicate what a value in Wave Amplitude represent to wave height in units. Can you change amplitude/frequency in runtime, and/or will it be a smooth transition or step based (like Ceto).
    Is there a away to transition from one water profile to another in runtime.
    I also assume there is a way to sample a position and check if it's above or below water surface somewhere.
     
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  34. MCPGNZ

    MCPGNZ

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    Hi!

    About new features requests: we want to wait some time for user feedback, fix and polish existing functionalities,
    and then move on to implementing new stuff. I think the feature priority will be determined through a poll among UWS users.

    The SSS is directly from PWS, so it will probably look the same. I'll try some settings and send you the results if you're interested.

    The absorption settings are not per-camera, but it can easily be "faked"
    by creating two water profiles (with different underwater absorptions) and switching between them when needed.

    Wave height is determined by Wind Speed, there is a info showing you the Beaufort scale.

    You cannot change the amplitude/frequency/wind speed at runtime, those require some expensive recalculations
    (not so expensive now, but it's disabled because there is a better way to do it - profile blends).

    The profiles can be blended at runtime easely, as shown in the video below.

    You can easily sample the water height (i.e. using Water Sampler component).



    My PC spec for performance reference: i7-4790 @ 3.6GHz, GTX 760, 8GB RAM
    (And yes, i remember about the requested VR test, coming soon)
     
  35. Teila

    Teila

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    Oh this is too cool!!! Thanks for the video.
     
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  36. Drowning-Monkeys

    Drowning-Monkeys

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    That is pretty BA bro.
     
  37. CaptainMurphy

    CaptainMurphy

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    I would be very interested.

    In that blend profile vid it also highlights that terribly strong vignette that I can never seem to negate in deferred. Forward it is less visible but that doesn't work for one of our games and we end up using deferred which has that vignette no matter what we do (probes and all are working fine, just get that effect at the edges of the screen).
     
  38. ftejada

    ftejada

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    Wishing to launch your asset so that @MCPGNZ help me to get it.

    Greetings and thank you
     
  39. skaughtx0r

    skaughtx0r

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    @Moonlit-Games-Studio Hey I'm a current PWS customer, I was wondering if UWS has support for the ShipBowWavesEmitter that's available in the PWS 2.0 beta?

    You can kind of see the bow waves emitter in action here:


    Also, it would be cool if the wave height queries took into account the height of the wakes. Is this possible?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  40. Ultimate_Games_SA

    Ultimate_Games_SA

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    Dear All,

    short explanation:
    PlayWay S.A. and Ultimate Games S.A. are in one group, they are sister-companies.
    Because of some Unity Asset Store rules, we need to transfer UWS to PlayWay S.A. account.
    PlayWay S.A. account will change the name on Ultimate Games S.A. (already did).

    Then PlayWay Water and UWS will be on one, the same account.
    Then all owners of PW Water will be able to make an upgrade to UWS in discounted price.

    Sorry for this confusing situation, hope now all is clear.

    Best
    PlayWay S.A. / Ultimate Games S.A.
     
  41. MCPGNZ

    MCPGNZ

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    Hi again!

    I've created more videos showcasing the dynamic displacement, quality settings and fog.
    Unfortunately, standard unity fog is not supported, but the effect can be achieved using post processing scripts/assets (like DeepSky Haze in the video below)

    Will look into it and post the results. (I think it should be relatively easy to abstract this into separate parameter)

    We've not included the ShipBowWavesEmitter but it's pretty easy to create custom water displacement.

    Dynamic displacement:


    Quality Settings and Fog:
     
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  42. ftejada

    ftejada

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    Great videos.

    I work with Azure Sky. Do you know if the mist of AzureSky will work with UWS? If not, will you arrange for this asset or similar?

    Reference to the video of emission of particles so I see in the video, Is the way to create waves that break on the shore can go there?

    regards
     
  43. MCPGNZ

    MCPGNZ

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    Hi @ftejada.

    All post-processing assets that access depth-buffer should work with UWS (with Post Processing Stack being one of them (excluding the fog)).
    I've briefly read the Azure Sky documentation and based on how the Azure Sky Fog Scattering is set up i'm pretty sure that it should work without any modifications to UWS source (i cannot guarantee this though).

    About the breaking waves, at this point the dynamic displacement (show in the video) is based on height maps, so unfortunately there is no way* to "bend" the waves (the problem is analogous to the unity terrain and creation of caves etc.)

    * there actually is "ugly-hacky" way to do it (at least visually, the physics would be a lot trickier) but i suspect this will be high on the feature-requests list.
     
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  44. MarcopoloR

    MarcopoloR

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    I have a request for being able to see things that are above the surface from underwater, as far as I can tell Playway does not do this. Also underwater sunshaft effects, no water in Unity that I am aware of has ever had this feature. Here is an example of what I am talking about, this is from Cryengine 3-


    and here is another example at sunrise and sunset, you can see how the shafts penetrate the water and the sun shines through-



    No water asset that I have seen on Unity even comes close to this quality, and this is Cryengine 3. To me, water like this on Unity would be worth paying $175 for.
     
  45. elbows

    elbows

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    Regarding these sorts of effects, caustics, etc, I have hopes for this coming era. In general we are seeing more game engine post-processing effects move to compute shaders and get generally refreshed at the same time. And we are seeing more and more volumetric effects coming to game engines and especially unity. These are most obviously used for sky, atmosphere, fog effects with more realistic results and interesting lighting/shadows than the previous generations of fog etc fakery. But in some areas they have equal use underwater, and I hope options will come to pass on this front for unity and look way better.

    I dont predict yet from which direction this stuff will first arrive , eg unity themselves or a water asset or a water asset partnering with a volumetric asset author to ensure good compatibility or whatever. And although I try to pay close attention to developments in these areas, I may already be out of date and missing some options that exist already.
     
    Teila likes this.
  46. skaughtx0r

    skaughtx0r

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Posts:
    9
    @MCPGNZ ah interesting, does the Dynamic Displacement also get computed in the return value of water height queries?
     
  47. Danirey

    Danirey

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    Posts:
    485
    Hi, can't find the asset in the store... any problem?
     
  48. longroadhwy

    longroadhwy

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Posts:
    1,236
    Moonlit-Games-Studio likes this.
  49. Moonlit-Games-Studio

    Moonlit-Games-Studio

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Posts:
    20
    We're sorry for any difficulties for current and new users - we had to deprecate current package on Asset Store in order to move it to the PlayWay account. Sorry for inconvenience, everything should be ready within few days.
     
    ftejada likes this.
  50. Reiner

    Reiner

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Posts:
    174
    thx for the info :)