UDK vs Unity which one do you guys recommend for a student?

And why?

Pros and Cons of both? I saw games in UDK and they looked really impressive graphically. But I am concerned about documentation and stuff.

Also I heard UDK needs 3Ds Max which to begin with is another difficult program to learn.
While Unity 3D has its own modeling program built in etc? and the asset store would make unity much more suitable since UDK don't have this and a student aka 1 man developer would need to rely on pre built stuff right?

I would also like to sell my project when I am done for whatever little money I can potentially earn from it. so taking this into account aswell which is better UDK or Unity?

 

You mean Unreal 4 right? UDK has now left the building..

You need 3Dsmax if you use CryEngine (well it's recommended anyway), not Unreal.

As for the last question, whatever.. They are both good engines, I can guarantee right this moment that you'll run out of skill well before these engines will. Give them both a try, see what takes your fancy.

 

hmm well unreal 4 needs a DX 11 GPU atleast a GTX 460 while I only have a Radeon HD 4870 DX 10
Also unreal 4 needs money I am a student I need something free. UDK is completely free!! And it runs fantastic on my HD 4870 in DX 9 mode.

Games are not about graphics though its about gameplay I believe and unreal 3 UDK in DX 9 would look incredible for a student project considering the new Mortal Kombat being released next year will use UE3 still

 

Thing with UDK is, it's a complete pain in the rear to use.. There was a 25% royalty charge for the privilege, whilst out the box it's prettier then Unity I wouldn't use it . But that's me..

Unity free is probably the best engine to learn basic concepts.

 

I recommend trying both. Though I do have to point out that you do not want UDK, you want Unreal Engine 4 (or UE4 as it is called). UDK is Unreal Engine 3.

UE4 has a subscription ($19 per month), but it is only necessary if you wish to keep it updated. You can cancel the subscription at any time and still use the version you have. You can also continue selling whatever you make. It does require you pay 5% royalties on any income over $3,000 per product per quarter.

With UE4 you get access to all the features and the source code of the engine. You also get access to every single platform it offers aside from the consoles.

www.unrealengine.com

Unity has a Free and a Pro edition. You can sell products with both, but if you make more than $100,000 annually you are required to upgrade to Pro. Aside from that, the main differences between the two are features. Unity Free has some restrictions that can be seen on the comparison page.

Unity Pro is $1,500 for Windows, Mac, Linux support. Adding Pro support for additional platforms is an additional $1,500 per platform.

Unity, both for Free and Pro, does not require paying royalties.

https://unity3d.com/unity/licenses

You will need to learn a modeller for both. Neither is capable of more than simple shapes. There are some tools in the Asset Store for Unity, but they are only for modifying existing meshes or simple level layouts. Anything complex will need a modeller.

https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3558 - ProBuilder
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/4464 - QuickEdit

You can pick up student copies of modellers like 3ds max or Maya, but they prohibit commercial use.

Unity is currently the winner for mobile development by a long shot. UE4 is better looking, but also more demanding. Aside from that it is personal preference.

 

^ thanks a lot Ryiah
The only concern is Unreal 4 would require a powerful DX 11 GPU while I am currently limited to a radeon HD 4870 but I had no idea you could just pay $20 for subscription and then cancel it and keep it thats awesome!!!

With that said I believe I will use Unity because of its incredible awesome documentation and friendly to beginners. Plus it will run fantastic on my HD 4870 GPU and plus I will need to put my game on android atleast I assume so this is all assumption that things go as planned for me in life and I continue to excel in my studies I have lots of calculus to do in school aswell but failure is not an option for me. So all in all Unity seems to be the best choice for me

And I also love this community aswell

 

You might need to ask on the Unreal forums if your card will work. I do know DirectX 9 is not supported, but I believe it works with DirectX 10 and simply lost features if DirectX 11 was absent.

The subscription is an oddity that's for sure. Some people are only subscribing for a month every few months to grab specific version releases. Like 4.3 had SpeedTree added and a lot of fixes but 4.4 was a bit lackluster by comparison.

 

Hi no its just these guys brought up the topic of UE4 because I never really taught about it to be honest. But yes I will stick to unity. Unity seems very umm Apple like so to speak, I like her.

Plus I need compatibility this is what I am after, Unity would run on almost anything lol

 

unity is free you don't need the pro version especially if your messing around. If your computer is not really beefy then I don't know if unreal will even run, whereas with unity it can mostly run on anything. If your doing a mobile game then unity is probably the way to go. Unitys asset store is way better and advanced compared to the unreal marketplace.

It seems to me that unreal 4 is pushing blueprint, so if your an artist I have to think that's going to be easier then trying to learn a c# especially for non programmers. If your doing a big team project I think unreal is the way to go.

 

I recommend Unity!

Because it's easy and intuitive, and best thing out there if you're a one man team. Great documentation and community. What more can you ask?

 

Just to note, UDK runs fine on my old machine (Geforce 8800 GTX, Core2 Quad, 8GB) - which, at least GPU-wise is a good deal older than the OP's Radeon. UE4 runs too - albeit at around 10-15 fps in the editor with just the "two chairs and a table" scene open.

(As for Unity, the same machine also runs a 2048x2048 terrain with Relief Terrain Pack - including parallax occlusion mapping; and my own reflective+refractive water shader and realtime physically accurate sky dome at 120fps... Which is not a dig at UE - at this point, I'm expecting Unity 5 to be about the same as UE4 in terms of performance, which means that old PC goes out the window).

 

^ Hi Jither, I only upgraded my Mainboard and ram and CPU recently to a Intel Pentium G3220 haswell and 4GB DDR 3 ram kingston hyper x. I also have a 128GB SSD plextor which is blazing fast however my GPU remains the HD 4870 512MB. It runs everything up until Battlefield 3. Everything after that runs bad and I am not in any position to upgrade right now at all. Once it comes down to DX 10 and DX 9 games my Radeon eats them for breakfast with full blown 8X Anti Aliasing MSAA aswell.

I personally do not see the need for anything higher than Unity simply because it will run fantastic on older PC and looks wonderful at the same time. I mean counter strike and DOTA 2 are the top played games on steam and they are only DX 9 still. So really graphics isn't everything, as a gamer I know this just look at League of Legends and world of warcraft. The very latest graphics aren't necessary and it just places a burden on myself and anyone trying to run a game I would have built.

Its true I may not be able to run Unity 5 but once this unity 4 will do for the next 3 years then I am good with that. Unity has very excellent documentation and layout just looking at it on this site is a joy!!! plus so much stuff on its market place to buy at great discounts or get for free I can't see myself leaving here.

 

I recommend unity also. It allows you to make games via a tech that simplifies the complexities of building games by presenting those complexities in an easy to use all-in-one package.

 

Compared to rolling your own engine completely from scratch it might be considered an all-in-one package. You can't really consider it an all-in-one engine beyond that though because it cannot be used to make assets such as models, music, sound effects, etc. At least not non-procedurally generated ones.

You can purchase resources from the asset store, but most of them are not very good. There are other sites, but other engines can use them just as much as Unity can.

Not to mention UE4 is gaining its own asset store. So that advantage is eventually going to be eliminated.

 

The latest slightly graphics intensive game I attempted here was Spec Ops: The Line - which ran fine on the abovementioned PC with just slightly below max quality and 2x MSAA. But yeah, still not enough to please UE4.

Quite right. The major burden of AAA graphics isn't on the CPU/GPU or the engine. It's on the developer(s) - not least the single developer starting his/her first project.

Well, I'm guessing that if you turn all the new lighting and shader features off in Unity 5, it would run about the same as 4. But again, while some features of 5 might be a help for a developer starting out - and a lot of it would be fun to play around with - most of it are things a large percentage of starting developers think they need - while the things most of them actually need are a solid game design, and workable (which doesn't have to mean AAA) 2D/3D graphics and audio. Quite sure it's been stated millions of times on this forum, but the engine features of UDK, UE4, CryEngine or Unity aren't what's stopping most people from making the game they want.

 

You can also turn off features in UE4, though I still wouldn't be surprised if Unity 5 performed better.

 

For a student my considerations would be:

Unity Pros:

Unity FREE edition.
Works really well with many different file types including Blender (also free)
Low System requirements (wont break your budget getting a system that runs it, even a laptop)
No Royalties required. (you keep your earnings)
Great selection of assets in asset store. (if you aren't a great artist you can get art on the cheap)
C#, UnityScript, Boo .. aka pick your flavor of coding you find easiest to learn & use.
Gigantic community and selection of wiki's, youtube video tutorials, and books to learn from.

Unity Cons:
You might convince yourself you need a pro feature, if so then more expensive than FREE.

As a student I would really question where your head is at if you tried to claim you have to have paid edition - and you've never shipped a game. You have bigger fish to fry first IMO.

Unreal Pros:
The full edition is fairly affordable at 19.99 a month even for a student.
It is a full AAA engine, the limiting factor of what you can do will be you.
Source code available.
The power of C++ at your hands!
Blueprint visual scripting system is a first class citizen.

Unreal Cons:
It will run on a mediocre spec'd machine but it will be painful. ( I have a mid-end system with only 4GB ram and it runs, but changing a shader and waiting 2 minutes for it to compile gets old REALLY fast. You WILL want a good machine if you use this for any amount of time. )
It does not play as well with multiple file formats as Unity does. It really wants you to be using AAA tools like 3DS Max or Maya which each coast around $5-8k. You could probably get a NON-commercial use student license to these products for less but then you can't sell your game!!!
C++ , sure its a pro, its also a con. You have to manage a lot of stuff yourself including memory. Your good at that right? Even big game studio's screw this up and have memory leaks and other issue in C++ ; as a student with low experience this is not a trivial concern. Doesn't mean you cant do it though!
You will have to pull down Unreal's C++ source code if you want to code in C++ and need to feel comfortable with using Github and version control. You NEED to be able to do this as a coder eventually but as a student maybe your not ready for this yet.

That's what I can think of at the moment.

 

On this point, I'd recommend the OP ask their school. I have a friend who is going through a game design course at a university in Maryland and his university actually uses Unity Pro. He may be required to have a copy of Unity Pro, whether student or otherwise, in order to partake in the class(es) properly.

 

Quite fair observation Ryiah. We'll have to assume if the curriculum has requirements the OP will have to disregard advice that doesn't follow the requirements.

 

On the plus side, most of those features are unlikely to be encountered if he decides to get a head start on his own. I am curious if Unity offers an upgrade path for Pro from student edition to commercial edition.

 

Yeah - to be fair, haven't tried to turn off the features in UE4, because the 8800 GTX is actually dying on me at this point - need it to survive as long as possible for Unity (even forgetting to exit the game in Unity if I want to play a video = a 50/50 chance of it rage quitting).

 

Well maybe it's just the Macs it doesn't run well on

 

melkior thanks very much for the input. From what I can see, Unity has everything I will ever need.

The only downside is that unity free graphics look really poor compared to pro as can be seen in the following pics its somewhat heart breaking. I got it on this thread

http://www.moddb.com/forum/thread/uneducated-knowledgeable-want-to-design-a-game-s

 

What you guys think? isnt those pics a real deal breaker? the difference is literally night and day.

I had no idea free Unity was so poor in comparison to Pro.

I must now beg the question are we allowed to use a pirated version of unity pro for non profit purposes or strictly for student use? and if not is there any way this company would allow the use of the pro unity for student and non profit use?

Other companies allow nearly full access to their software for non profit and student usage.

Don't get me wrong the engine is fantastic for beginners and has a bright side of being free under 100k with no royalty unlike unreal engine. But when one considers the work necessary to put into these games and you end up with a game that looks like 1998 vs one that looks 2010 it begs the question as to if this engine is still worth it.

I know UDK is outdated now but it features every single feature from the start and can easily compete with Unity. I think I will now reevaluate my position here and consider upgrading my PC to more RAM and a newer GPU to facilitate a unreal engine 4 or just use UDK
Its a shame that Unity is being held back by that simple lighting feature. A real shame!!!!

And I would be afraid to use a pirated version of this pro engine aswell. I think it really sucks why should people who are not making any profit be limited by this lighting feature. I mean its just for learning purposes and to show off your skills and what you can do!

 

UDK is a worthless skill to have, it's now outdated and if you are a student no studios will be using it by the time you join the industry and you will need to learn Unity and/or UE4.

 

ok so something I am not understanding. If unity free is so bad like what is shown in the pics how the heck does this video look so good? guys help me understand here why does unity free in those pics look so horrid yet in this video it looks so good?

 

Please help me understand guys I am noob at this and don't want to risk learning a engine for years only to realize I made a mistake. My only concern I have left now is graphics and the 2 pics I posted earlier. Why do the first pic look so horrid yet this video uses unity free and looks so good? something I am missing?

 

You can't go wrong with Unity TBH, look on Studica at student licenses it's like $110 for Unity Pro non commercial. Also don't expect you won't have to change engines at some point if you get a job they could change engine or anything and unless you are going to quit or get fired you will need to move, this isn't even just about graphics or whatever it's licensing and cost mostly.

My suggestion would be to focus on Unity as it's a battle proven engine that is widely used in all walks of life from Indie to AAA and also spend about %10-%20 of your time on UE4 which is NOT a proven program and AFAIK has no big projects out yet and hasn't have a huge impact on the industry (as of yet, but I see loads of little indie companies and AAA studios are using it) and IIRC is still in beta or something. Just make sure that if you get a job and they say you need to use UE4 you can do it (I don't know if you want to be a programmer, artist, sound designer, game designer, producer or what so it's kind of hard to share the right advice)

 

hmm ok from the looks of it I will stick to unity. I got a bit scared for a second but I found it hard to believe that in those 2 pics the first one was so horrid looking compared to the second one. I wonder if they are just old pics and unity has changed since then and now the free version has much better lighting? which would explain why the video looks much better?

 

No, it's because you're comparing apples to oranges. The only difference between the two images that is due to Pro vs. Free (and not just because of a slightly different angle) is the addition of glow on the lights on the second one by way of post-processing. Post-processing requires render textures which is a Pro-only feature (although some have managed to do it in different, though quite a bit more resource-intensive, ways in Free).

Not sure what's so great about the video (I've seen much better things done in Free to say the least) - but it has nothing to do with the difference between those screen shots. Some of it may have to do with much - if not all - of the content being blatantly stolen from various other games, including well known AAA ones...

Which brings us back to the point that the lack of Pro features aren't what's keeping most people back - it's the lack of a good game design, and lack of skills (or dedication) to create the graphics, audio or programming for their game. No amount of Pro features will help with that.

 

Currently the watermarked non-commercial is $99 for a one-year license.

http://www.studica.com/us/en/unity/unity-pro-5-game-development-student-license/u5pro-2014-cs.html

Or you can get a perpetual student license that supports commercial and no watermarks for $650.

http://www.studica.com/us/en/unity/...-software-student-commercial/u5-100135-1.html

Yep.

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/in...uality-post-process-fx-to-unity-indie.198568/

 

Yes. It is the free version of Unity. If you are learning, or "non profit" (non-profit has a specific meaning, not just failing to sell your game), you don't need pro. Pro features are great for polishing and optimizing and things of that nature, but if you are learning, you can learn 99.9999% of what you need to know from the free version.

First you are dramatically over exaggerating the difference in those screen shots, art and design choices can mitigate a lot of perceived visual challenges. They are both pretty generic in the first place, the second one is generic with bloom. If you are going make a decision based on those two screen shots, you need to do a LOT more research. Not just on rendering, but on how games are made. Until you are capable of producing that first one, don't worry about the second.

They aren't. Truly skilled people are not limited in any way, unskilled people are the only ones being "limited". If you are skilled you will find ways to display your skills. Cough up 20 bucks for unreal or create still renders or pre-rendered movies, if eng, write a good game, write your engine, etc. If you are trying to display your skills to get work, you can display them easily without having a top of line game engine. Adding bloom isn't a skill.

Exactly. People often get so hung up the capabilities of the engine, they don't consider their own capabilities. S***ty art with bloom and post fx is still S***ty art. If are a noob, go with Unity free. If you actually gain enough skills (and don't just get bored and quit in a few months) and are able actually produce a (objectively) good quality game (art, eng, etc..) THEN if you are unable to achieve the quality consider getting pro, or switching engines. If you get to the art and eng level needed to produce quality games, "learning" an engine is trivial.

 

Indeed, creative people find creative solutions.

 

I had to stare at those two screenshots for a minute to see what the difference is .. its mainly the light blooms around the lit objects in the scene; and I tend to like the shading on the gun better in the free version than the pro version, but the author could tweak that more with a shader if they cared to I'm sure. The gun looks too 'soft' in the pro version.

As I pointed out in my earlier post - worrying about the pro features in Unity is jumping ahead of yourself dramatically.

If you end up making something that looks as good as the free version in your quoted screenshot then do a kickstarter and have your user community fund your Unity Pro?

Pirating is always illegal. If you are attempting to get in to software development stop and think for a moment if you want anyone to buy your game one day? If the answer is yes then start realizing that by participating in a pirate culture you are contributing to the culture of the people that will steal your game rather than pay for it.

There are free tools, Free Unity 3D, free Blender 3D, free GIMP (photoshop like software) the only thing that is going to stop you with the incredibly excellent free tools available is your time you put in to learning, your motivation, and your persistence through difficult intellectual challenges ahead of you. Not the lack of glowy effects.

Best of luck in your journey

 

C'mon... the difference between free and pro is not night and day... at least not to me. Even the screenshots you showed are fairly similar (aside from the glow)... you can have glow in free, using the traditional way.

But nothing says you shouldn't try all engines before you choose. UE4 is like 19 bux a month, and Unity is 100% free.

And, don't be afraid to "waste" time... just give each engine a few months. Learning fully any engine will take a lot of time, not to say you'll never stop learning stuff. So a few months "wasted" is nothing.

 

The cheapest way to learn what you want is to use Unity free and buy 1 month of Unreal engine for 20bucks. You'll quickly see why Unity is better, as you will spend more time watching tutorials and reading documentation using Unreal than you will for Unity. Thus you will spend more time making your game with Unity. I own both pro and Unreal,and I play around with unreal because its fun and beautiful but if I need to actually make something and finish it, Unity is always my way to go.....

 

You guys are right thanks for explaining it to me. Bloom isn't everything there are other ways to make stuff look good

 

OW WOW thank you so very much for this!!!!!

I didn't even know this existed!! its incredible!

Holy molly

 

You dont need 3ds max for UE4 or UDK. You can use Mudbox which is cheaper and just use it for exporting, which allows you to build models in third party software, export to Mudbox and from Mudbox export as fbx. And even if you do use 3ds max you dont have to learn it, you can still model in other software and just use Max for import and export into fbx.

 

^ question could you recommend the easiest 3D software to do modeling with?

Max seems pretty intimidating at first, unless you do recommend me to use max and its important not to be lazy and learn it then yes I will do it.

 

blokify is for children. That's probably pretty easy. But any serious modeling program is difficult because they are very complex applications. They have to be to handle all they do. If you want easy, take up stamp collecting. Game Development is hard. Making 3d models is a lot of work and hard. Writing code that compiles and runs is a bit tedious and hard.

 

ok well then I will stick to 3DS Max

 

Which is fine if you are simply a hobbyist, but going professional and taking a course in college for it is a much different degree of learning. He'll be doing far more than simply reading the official manuals and watching videos.

I have a friend going through university for game design. I've had the opportunity to question him about the depth involved in those classes. It involves multiple classes, some of them multiple semesters, and multiple textbooks that you are required to read, understand, do assignments in, and are tested against.

For a professional, or someone aiming to be a professional, if they are not able to do some simple learning tasks like reading and understanding documentation or watching videos, then they are not going to stay professional for very long.

 

I got a question

http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems3/gpugems3_ch13.html

This link was posted on this forum from the indi effect thread page 1. The poster suggested using this link for the calculus equations etc to add in stuff like post processing effects into unity free.

So can someone explain a little to me what he means by that? and is he saying this document by nvidia illustrates that you can add in anything to unity that they are showing to you without the need for the pro feature?

I had no idea that you would be using calculus in game design like this. This sounds pretty cool it means one can showcase their math skills in their projects and assignments right? say this is the case then i assume free unity is better because it will showcase a student being able to add in things on their own that would match features of unity pro hence making them even more skilled than a person who just buys unity pro?

Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere thanks.

 

Hi Ryiah I would have to say you are indeed correct. I am doing a Bsc in Computer Engineering, starting in 2 days time. I will be learning advanced calculus and electrical engineering along with C/C++ and Java programming etc etc. Stuff like Algorithm Analysis and Design with Database Design and Development and other software engineering principles.

Where I am from in the Caribbean I cannot list even 1 game development company. We are indeed more into database engineering etc programming business applications. However I figured it would be better to design a video game just as other students have done in the past because I could potentially sell games on steam store or something this is assuming I could do everything myself and if it succeeds and I make money off it, I can then hire a small team of people to do an even better game and start up a company.

Our university is trying to get us to become entrepreneurs and do this very thing. But I don't put all my eggs in one basket, the biggest aim of my degree is so I can become qualified for a Job be it teaching or designing software/database for businesses locally these are guaranteed positions you can apply for.

The game design would be for a project and potential to start a company later on and make money by selling online.
I am not too sure how realistic it would be to go to the USA because one needs a H1B visa etc. But yes if I could be a game designer and work for a company or have my own company it would be a blast.

With that said we have one of 2 specialization. A) Telecommunication Engineering and B) Software Engineering. I would like to do software, however our telecom industry is pretty huge where I come from but at the same time there are lots of people running around with IT networking certs and its really saturated.

Software however is lacking and its easier to get a Job as a software developer/. But it would be business side

 

Business software development is a good day job while you make games.

 

yeah same thing I was thinking. My first priority is a day Job which will definitely be business software development and I can work on games when I am not doing that you know.

Infact from right now counting, I have 3 years full support from my father so when school closes for the long summer vacation etc I could very well be working on my game I aim to have a proper game capable of being sold by the time I am done with this degree. Hopefully anyways

 

Render textures is a Pro only feature that allows you to do post processing. A render texture is simply a 2D texture that you render the scene into. Then you can do multiple passes which read that render texture into another render texture and do some type of filter on it like blur, bloom, light shafts, SSAO, etc. Eventually you render to the screen buffer and the GPU will display it.

In Free you can duplicate the exact same functionality without render textures in Unity Free by simpler rendering to the screen buffer (basically the render texture that the GPU owns) and the using ReadPixels to read the GPU buffer back to your own texture that you initialize in code. Then you can re-submit that texture to the GPU and from there do all the exact same filters or operations that you can with render targets.

The difference is that in Free you need to move the texture data from the GPU to the CPU to the GPU again. With render textures all the texture memory stays on the GPU so it is much faster. Unity Free post-processing is like having a tenth-story office, but you can't use any of the doors. To move to a different room you need to take the elevator to the ground floor and back up to your office.

You can design and prototype any full-screen processing effect in Unity Free, and it's pretty easy to re-use the shader code to work with Unity Pro. However, the performance on Unity Free will be really terrible especially with complex multi-pass post-processing effects. It's not something you would ever use in a shipped project.

There are several other limitations in Unity Free, however, which you should look into (non-GI lightmaps, no occlusion culling, profiler, native code plugins, etc.)

Honestly, if your choice is between Unity Free and UE4, then UE4 is a much better option. If a Unity Pro student license is a possibility, then that is a different decision.

 

CaptainScience thank you so very much for the explanation. I didn't know using those work arounds to get post processing to work in unity would in reality be somewhat useless due to performance issues in the end. As you said performance would suffer and hence its not something you would do with a shipped product. hmmmm

unless these things get changed in Unity 5 and they allow greater effects for unity 5 free edition?

I will start looking at Unreal Engine 4 now. Infact I will give both programs a try, It has suddenly become a lot more viable to allow UE4 a chance

thank you

 

Hey hold up- modeling organic creatures is pretty easy to pull off in something like Mudbox, ZBrush, 3d coat, or Blender Sculpt because it simulates working with Clay. Blender might be your best bet with a student's budget since it's totally free.

Also, I'm a bit confused how you will use ue4 since you said above your card does not support it.

Btw, someone above told you it is useless to learn UDK but that is not correct. Some licenses are still using UE3 technology and migrated it themselves to next gen. Ever heard of Injustice? UE3. The new Mortal Kombat? UE3. A little game called Borderlands?

All that being said I'd take Unity over UDK though in a heartbeat because Unrealscript is a programmer's mortal enemy. I want you to find this out for yourself. Now UE4 on the other hand is great fun. But I personally feel that Unity is currently more mature with the animation skeleton retargeting and maybe in one or two other areas. But UE4 should be crossing that gap in another month or so looking at their roadmap.

Not a bad idea to learn both technologies. Both tech are used in studios although UE4 might see more use in AAA sector currently. But dont quote me on that I'd challenge you to research all of this yourself