Transitioning to mac and need help

Ok, I've been an avid PC user for years and never really got into Macs. The last experience I had with a Mac was soured years ago during a web design gig I had. The GPU made me cringe, and the one button mouse and tiny keyboard weren't too exciting.
Fast forward a few years and I came upon Unity, the first app that made me want to get a Mac. I was comparing Unity against Beyond Virtual, and I must say it beats it hands down (with acception with features like realtime shadowing), the community here is much more interesting, the docs on Unity are second to none, and the support is encouraging.
So I did some research for a few hours on the new intel Macs, namely because there's some apps on Windoze that I still need. For instance this is my current pipeline for my studio

- C4D (exclusively, so I know it works well with Unity)
- Maya
- Zbrush
- Mudbox (will replace Zbrush once available, and currently only runs on PC)
- Photoshop
- Flash/Dreamweaver
- Beyond Virtual (which will change to Unity)

And that's about it, now I look at it, I can pretty much use an Intel Mac primarily hmmm.
The Mac OS X is simply amazing and my wife would get a kick out of using it for sure.

Anyhoo what I need help on is choosing one of these lil beasts, I'm a total Mac noob and have no idea what is what really. Both the iMac and Mac mini are amazing space savers and with this http://www.apple.com/macosx/switch/howto/kvm.html I can have a great setup going. One thing tho is that Macs are pricy lil things much like the Ipods sheesh! Apples marketing is superb is that respect. Anyhoo, so I would like some help deciding what's best price/value wise, and I'm not into buying it off e-bay especially electronics So take into consideration I was about to buy a new dual core PC next week:

Here are things I would look for

- Dual core CPU
- Capable graphic card (I'm currently using a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra on my PC, so something to match or better that)
- minimum 2gigs of ram
- decent HDD space
- No logitech support which is a shame, so I guess a *Mighty Mouse*
- I love my M$ Natural Keyboard
- Dual Screens are a must (but how would that work with A KVM?

In all honesty, I'm really impressed with what I seen with the latest Macs and the new OS X (Vista looks like the same crap all over again to me :roll and the new Mac ads are hilarious and so true :? heh.

Anyhoo, any help would be greatly appreciated, cause it looks like I'm about to drop some serious coin. It's too bad I can't demo the engine somehow or even watch a video of someone using it before a purchase... but the long and short of it is, I'll at least have a Mac which gives me access to apps like Final Cut Pro and Shake! And oh I'm in CA..NA..DA

Cheers!

 

Not sure what you mean by "no logitech support" every logitech mouse works with a Mac just fine. The few that don't have drivers for all there special features can be used together with USB Overdrive and have practicaly full funcionality.

As far as what I'm seeing in your pipeline your a graphics guy. So your going to want as much power as you can get. There is a very good chance that the Mac Pros (the Power Mac G5 replacment) will be anounced/released next week so it might be worth it to sit tite for a week and see what new things come out at WWDC. I would sugest getting a Mac Pro, they are rather pricy but its well worth it. Oh and welcome to the comunity!! Jeff

 

I'd say get an iMac. It's got a dual core CPU, X1600 graphics card, and you can get a decent amount of RAM and hard drive space. (But don't get RAM from Apple; they overcharge ludicrously. Go Newegg or something for that.) Certainly there is Logitech support; you can use whatever USB mice and keyboards are out there. They all "just work," as they say. Toss the Mighty Mouse in a drawer just so you have a backup mouse in case yours dies. But if you want to customize controls more than OS X lets you, there are programs like USB Overdrive that let you tweak everything. (Which has the advantage of working with all devices, not just those from a certain manufacturer.) Not really sure how dual screens work with a KVM since I haven't tried that.

Either that or wait to see about the Mac Pros, but I have some doubts that they'd be available any time soon. Maybe.

I spent around US$3000 on my dual 2.5 G5 Power Mac close to 2 years ago, and it was worth every dime. Once upon a time I wouldn't have considered getting a Mac, in the pre-OS X days. I've had plenty of experience with OS 9 and earlier and "bleah" is all I can say. Some of the hardware left something to be desired too. But this G5 is great...it doesn't feel the least bit "old" yet, which is amazing considering that 2 years is like FOREVER in computer terms....

As far as Unity goes, don't worry about not being able to demo it on Windows. Seriously, it's everything you could expect and then some. But careful...if you're like me, your progress will be slow just because Unity is so slick and fun to play around with that it's way too easy to get distracted by all the nifty stuff you can do.

--Eric

 

Yes, I've got several Logitech devices on my Mac--multi-button trackball and gamepad. They work fully without needing any driver software--but Logitech does have software (for many models, not all) that adds additional options if you need them. Logitech makes some Mac-specific stuff too, which is nice because the keys are labeled a little different, but most of their stuff works in Mac and Windows both. Same with Microsoft, Kensington, Saitek, Belkin, etc. (In fact, most USB devices that do NOT say Mac-compatible actually are.)

I suggest waiting until August 7 when the new pro towers will most likely be announced, and very likely for sale then or soon after. Core 2 Duo, and maybe other improvements. Then decide between that and an iMac (which can span to a second display--but you can't use its OWN display for an external computer--there's no input that does that).

You'd probably need 2 KVMs if you had two displays, unless someone makes a dual switch. Or let one machine do without the extra screen.

I would also look very seriously at a MacBook Pro. About the same power as an iMac, but portability is great. Mac OS X AND Windows AND all your projects and apps... everywhere you go. If you've never been portable, maybe this is the time I love it.

But Mac Book Pros should ALSO be getting Core 2 Duo soon (within 2 months?) so that's something to keep in mind. Right now they are Core Duo like the iMac. I would guess that the MB Pro will get Core 2 Duo before the iMac does. But it's all guesswork. On August 7 and in the days to follow, we may know more.

Do get a GB of RAM (or more) total. Sometimes Apple RAM is cheaper (because they subtract the smaller module instead of making you take it out and waste it). Sometimes it's cheaper to self-install, which is easy.

Also not that Macs do have two-button (well, 4-button + scrollball) mice now. I don't like the "invisible" right-button myself. Or keep using whatever USB mouse you already own.

Be sure to check http://versiontracker.com for useful apps to download.

 

Heya Tito, as far as i know you can also just run mac OS X ontop of windows (via pear pc or somthing similar) and run unity on that, with the power of a pc (argh.. please.. no flamin... argh.... ^^ ) though the fact that you have 2 os's running at the same time may take quite a bit of system resources (havnt tried it yet though so dunno)

 

Nope, that wouldn't work. PearPC is a PowerPC emulator, so it would be slow, and like all emulators like this, it doesn't have hardware 3D acceleration, making it virtually useless for Unity even if you could put up with the slowness.

--Eric

 

You can do the reverse, though, run Windows on top of OS X, with Parallels. No GPU currently (Boot Camp is needed for that at the moment--modeling, gaming, antything that needs fast 3D). But good speed otherwise--and the convenience of drag-and-drop between all your apps. Run what you want when you want, whether it's OS X or Windows, and run them at the same time. Parallels (or other virtualization solution) is also good for security from Windows viruses. (Though Boot Camp ain't bad either.)

And no flames needed re power of a PC vs. a Mac... Macs now use the fastest x86 chips there are

 

well.. pc still has 64 so... ^^ (atlest mine has now) but, ya mac is catching up.. finally =)

 

Even though you can use all your Windows software, there is certainly something very clean and pure feeling about doing everything os x.

 

Definitely wait unitl WWDC on August 7th, even if you aren't going to buy the new Mac Pro. Prices will drop, and if you wait long enough, you can buy a new mac with Leopard (Mac OS 10.5) pre-installed. If I were you, I would (without a doubt) buy the new Mac Pro. You sound like you could use the horsepower with FinalCut Pro, C4D, Maya, and of course, Unity. The only problem I see with that is the $$$, and building a game with a X1900 GPU could be difficult. You might become too used to your new blazing fast computer, and make games that are unplayable on even 1 yr old computers Just my thoughts. Oh, and welcome to the world of macs. You will enjoy your stay :wink:

 

Here's a thought--I suppose some game devs do this? Put two graphics boards in your tower, one really low-end and one high-end. Connect two displays or a switch. Then test your game on either screen at will.

(BTW, PowerMacs have been 64-bit for years--and will continue to be with Core 2 Duo next week. Macs portable CPU--the G4--has lagged behind since the Pentium M came out. But desktop Macs are another story--they have been great performers even compared to Pentium 4s. Until IBM slowed G5 development and Intel finally abandoned the Pentium 4 and moved on to something more efficient. Then the choice to go to Intel made good sense for the first time.)

 

Awesome feedback, much appreciated! But please don't turn this into a Mac debate
The more I see it, I think it's best to wait for 'WWDC'(no clue what it is, but I'll take your word )even if it's to see a price drop on the dual core Imacs, which I will get because there's no doubt the Mac Pro will be frickin pricy. The dual COre Imac would be good enough for my uses atm since believe it or not I'm running on a 5yr old box! An AMD athlon XP 1800+ 1.5ghz, and yes it's showing its age

Also to bad Pear PC won't work, I was about to try it. Ah well, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

As for the logitech thing, I was apparently showing my lack of knowledge with Macs, I completely forgot they use USB ports very much the same way

I can't wait to get the Mac and start creating!

Cheers

 

Yeah, I didn't think about that...the iMac has fewer RAM slots than the Power Mac, so that's something to keep in mind. I just added on and kept the smaller modules, and I can still add more without pulling any existing modules if I ever feel the need. The only way I'd have to waste the smaller modules is if I wanted 8GB, but I don't see that happening.

--Eric

 

WWDC is the World Wide Developer Conference where a bunch of mac geeks get together to learn more, and to drool over the new hardware that is usually released.

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/index.html?homepage

Glad I could help.

 

Apple badly needs a cheap tower/minitower... something above an iMac, below a PowerMac. Something with a removable GPU and no built-in display. Oh well, we can dream.

 

If I had a nickle for every time I heard that...I'd have several copies of Unity Pro. Plus Maya Unlimited. Maybe one of these days....

--Eric

 

There's always hope Once upon a time, a low-end headless Mac was unthinkable. But now there's the Mac Mini.

 

My logitech started to work with 10.4.6. Before that version it wasn't working no matter if i used logitech drivers or not...so my advice would be to check with the newest osx version.

Mighty Mouse is well...not much to say about Apple and mices... ;O)

 

Like anything unusual, it does take some getting used to, namely the fact that you can't click both the right and mouse button simultaneously. But it's also elegant and has an unquestionably innovative scroll ball.

 

And like most of the unusual stuff from Apple it isn't thought out 100% like you've mentioned with the doubleclick, no third button and no ergonomical design. My hands feel much more comfortable on a asymetric logitech.

 

The very reason I love their devices

 

Mighty mouse has four separate clicks. Left, Right, Mouseball-click, and the squeeze click. The mouseball is cool (if a little small) but this is one area where I believe form TRULY won out over function in a design disaster from Apple.

I bought one and the whole squishy button thing and the right-click only partly functional thing sucks. If you've only used the recent one button mac mouse beforehand, then you'll probably be okay. If you've used other mice forget it.

Dump it, sell it, whatever and get a logitech. I've never had an issue with a logitech mouse on mac for at least a decade now. I only use the simple left-right-scroll wheel kind. I despise the cramp inducing notion of holding your fingers around a mine field of buttons.

Seeing the wireless "Mighty" Mouse arrive just last week is depressing as it means we'll be stuck with the broken design (read: trash packed beautifully in new Mac boxes) for way too long.

In my opinion, Apple should have just made a standard two button clicker with the new scroll ball as the innovation. I wish they would make a REAL PRO mouse. <sigh> It only hurts so much because I'm in love with almost everything else Apple does. We can't seem to go a year without buying a Mac, for instance. lol

 

I have a quick question while I wait to get my Imac! One of my first game demos will be a boxing game ala Fight Night from EA. It's not going to be over the top, but at least it's simple enough to start wrapping my head around the engine (two boxers and a ring). I just wanted to know if Unity can produce these type of beat em ups effectively?. Because most engines I see like to cater to FPS/ADventure. Please tell me my imagination is the limit when it comes to game creation with Unity

Cheers!

 

Your imagination is the limit when it comes to game creation with Unity

Keep an eye on these forums and/or the IRC channel and you'll see people demoing work in progress that has incredible variety.

Unity's physics and ragdolls and hinge joints sound perfect for a boxing game.

 

Morgan already has, but just to elaborate, Unity isn't geared in any particular direction. It provides tools to do cool stuff, but it's totally up to you what you use them for. The basics involve importing 3D objects from other programs, and then setting them up in Unity, giving them various attributes like shaders, materials, physical properties like mass and drag, and then writing behavior scripts that you attach to the objects you've imported. And the really cool thing is tweaking everything while the game is running and getting immediate feedback...goodbye to endless tedious recompiling. (To be fair, some of that is still there, but it happens automatically in the background so you don't have to think about it.)

It's all object-oriented...for example, you could write a little script that gets input from the player and then moves left or right. (Which is literally two lines of code, which shows how streamlined everything is.) Then you can drag that script onto an object and it will move when you hit the left or right keys. You could drag it onto lots of objects and then they'd all move. You could drag it onto the camera, and then the camera would move...etc. You can make things as simple or as complex as you want. A complex game is still going to be complex to code, but at least you're just focusing on game logic and not worrying about OpenGL calls or any of the other messy stuff.

--Eric

 

I love it! I'm really anxious now. I paid a visit to the local Best Buy yesterday to take the Imac for a spin, and I must say its pretty damn nice! Waiting for somethings to clear then I'll pick one up.

Cheers

 

If you really got creative, you might even be able to make the game have some functionality with the built in iSight camera. I'm not sure how it would work, but it's definately worth looking into.

We might have to wait for a new version of Unity for compatibility with that. Who knows... the sky is the limit.

 

I vaguely recall an OTEE posting mentioning some kind of iSight functionality that already exists.

 

Hey now, that would be pretty slick the possibilities.

 

Perhaps you are thinking about one of these threads:
http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1243&start=15 - Using QT and rendering to a texture
http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=2051&start=0 - Nordic Game Jam with mention of iSight input

I believe you still need a plugin.

 

Is it me or did the Imac and Mac mini get a $100 price drop? http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=iMac
Should be picking mine up next week along with Unity! Looking forward to joining in the fray

Cheers

 

It's you

 

Haha, these dang US/CDN prices are playing with my head. Here in Ontario the Imac is running for $1399 and the mini is $699

 

Was never so excited to pick up a new comp. Finally got one last night, even tho I won't be able to fully use it until Sunday night (painting this weekend)

I have a qestion, because I trust you guys much more than the "expert technican" at Future Shop. I got an extra gig put into the Imac on the spot, and was wondering if the Kingston laptop ram was the correct ram to use. They tested it and it worked fine but you know, gotta be sure. Usually I would do everything myself but being a new mac user I didn't want to fuss around much with the inards just yet.

Anyhoo, I'm really happy to be part of the Mac family, and I can't wait to dig into Unity *finally*. Is there anything crucial I need to know upon my virgin boot?

Cheers!

 

So what have you bought? Aren't rumours telling there is a new mini around the corner...as always... ;O)

 

Heh not interested in the minis because of the GPU, so I picked up the 17" Intel Duo Imac and loaded it with 1.5 gigs, I also have a 19" Dell ultra sharp monitor on the way to go dual. I could've went 2 gigs but I decided I spent enough $$$ this month lol! I just bought a 42" Samsung DLP TV in prep for my PS3. It was hard enough convincing the wife why I needed to spend money on a mac as opposed to the cheaper PC

 

Sounds like a great system! It's what I'd get for Unity if I couldn't afford a Mac Pro.

Wait... I can't afford a Mac Pro!

OK, I'll stick with the old PBG4. If only the thing would die I could justify replacing it. Time to drop it down some more stairs.

 

Oh just have to say this comp is speedy. Got up and running in 10mins. Internet connection was a breeze! I'm actually posting on it now Now to set this bad boy up with software

Cheers!

 

Ok I got my mac from a big box store, and had the "technicans" there install another gig stick. What I didn't know and just realized is that the memory they used is PC4200 running at 533mhz, below the Imac stats which are 667MHz DDR2 (PC2-5300). Should I be concerned about this? Or will my Mac just start running at the lowest speeds?

Cheers and thx for any answers.

 

This RAM is recommended for Intel iMacs.

Kingston SO-DIMM PC2-5300 667 MHz

I dont know what exact consequences the slower RAM may have. But as RAM-speed can do a lot to your overall performance, especially on macs, i would let those techs change it to some adequate RAM...

The price is around 130 EURO per gig.

 

Just a note, I also checked the system profiler for the ram, and they're both running at 533Mhz. Could it be that the mac originally shipped with this slower 512 DIMM or is this a result of the 512 DIMM matching the speed of the slower ram?

 

Hmmm.... i actually dont know. Maybe the 17" model is shipped with 512ers, but so far i only saw those 667 MHz being recommended for Intel iMacs in general.

Have you checked apple.com for technical specs?

 

Yeah both Imacs ship with 512's. I checked the specs at Kingston as well, and its recommended to have those 667's

http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/con...nch+(Early+2006)&distributor=0&submit1=Search

 

Well got that annoying Ram biz fixed up. Returned it and went with a more knowledgable reseller!

Anyhoo got into Unity for the first time last night, and was truly impressed with it. Now I'm really glad I took the dive and bought the Mac for Unity. And not only am I loving Unity, I'm loving the Mac. I don't even want to touch the PC anymore Thx Otee for helping me see the light!

I will be purchasing my license from ya'll in a couple days!

~t

 

Will you continue the long tradition of posting a playable game before your trial is even up?

 

I'll trade you my busted 400MHz G4 Titanium PB for your working PB! It died two weeks after I bought a Mac mini. Jealous, I guess...

 

lildragn:
Welcome to the productive side of town - where tools are fancy, pretty and work.



Regarding the ram talk:
A logicboard (and a pc motherboard) will always synchronize the ram speeds of the available blocks rather than attempt a difficult compensation for varying ram access speeds.

As your blocks wont go faster than their factory speed, the ram speed will always be the speed of the slowest available block, but of-course exceeding the maximum ram speed available from the logicboard (which is shown in the apple product sheet whereas the system information shows the current speed).



Regarding the mouse talk:
In all probability, the reason for my different opinion of the apple mice is my being a programmer much more than a graphics artist - this, however is puzzling as the macintosh is (or at least used to be) a professional graphics development tool.

As mentioned, I am a programmer and my primary tool is therefore the keyboard more than the mouse. If there is a key-combination for it, I'll prefer it to clicking my mouse, but when I do use the mouse, I prefer the standard apple mouse.

Apple mice I owned, used and loved:
- The classic apple mouse - shipped with macintosh IIci.
- The slightly daring adaption of the classic apple mouse - shipped with power pc 9500.
- The apple pro mouse. The first version of the mouse design still used today - shipped with power mac G4.
- The apple wireless mouse. The first version of the pro mouse design, now turned white rather than transparent black, with a bluetooth connection rather than an USB wire bought with power mac G5·
- The apple mighty mouse wireless. Adding a very nice scroll-ball, three extra buttons and replacing the infrared sensor with a laser one, this mouse is a nice improvement of the apple wireless mouse -bought with mac mini core duo.

So what do I have to say for myself? Am I just a lunatic apple-fanboy? Yes I am, but furthermore I prefer how the apple mice always offered a nice big clickable surface - for very quick grab-and-click (remember I don't hug the mouse a lot in my daily work) how other mouse manufacturers have sacrificed button-size for button-count or have directly (for some inexplicable reason) decided to go for smaller buttons.

 

I keep hearing people complain about what they want to do and can't do and wish they can do.

I have a PowerBook G4 1.5G with 1G ram. I have had it for over 2 years now and still today there is not one single program taht I cannot run on this little darlling! Maya and Photoshop take a few seconds to load, sure, but even Steve Jobs himself said at the WWDC that photoshop always akes a while to load (as evident when he had to wait while showing everyone the power/speed of the Intel systems). Once they have started, they work perfectly.

I generally download via Safari and LimeWire while burning a Disc, surfing the net and listening to iTunes in the background all with no problems of any kind. the only times I face slow downs is when I have Virtual PC open and running together with Maya and then trying to do some more multi tasking... that and when I make a 50M PSD file with 20 layers and try to add layering effects to them.... he he he...

In all honestly, I have a single chip G4 1.5G PPC and I can do anything I can imagine (now if that isn't a praise for Apple, nothing is) so if you get yourself a G5 or Dual Core anything you will be king of your world and the envy of everyone who doesn't sleep in Gates's crack or have a better system than you.

I got myself an iMac Dual Core 2G and sent it back less than 2 weeks later thinking I will get myself the 24" screen one instead. I have since realized that I don't need it. Maya is still not Universal. Nor is photoshop. The Intel Dual Core 2G with 1G ram had more hangups and slow downs in that 2 weeks than my G4 has had in total in two years.

Since the programs I use are still made for PPC only and cause hangups in the Intel systems, and with my old system working like a dream, my advise to you would be this:
Buy what you can afford and be happy. Have you ever heard of a windows system that never needed an upgrade in 2 years? My G4 still has a long future in her, yet. If you buy a Dual Core it will just last you even longer.

The extra cash you spend is saved in years of no upgrades (trust me) but make sure you upgrade your ram asap. Look on eBay for cheap ram. Buy external HDDs instead of upgrading your HDD at purchase. They charge you like £150 for a 40G HDD increase but on eBay you get 300G HDD for like £90. See the difference?

So go, go now. Buy any Mac you see. Spend all the cash you have (I did), it will cost you less in the long run to do this. Don't worry too much about the hype and "you will need at least this" speaches...

 

While all MrDude says cannot be argued with, buying a last-generation processor architecture can. One of the reasons for me selling off my dual G5 was to be prepared for apps to come (no worries - it wasn't the only reason and it wasn't exactly easy to let go of such a delightful system).

I don't need heaps of computational power at my fingertips as I don't do a lot of heavy duty work on my home machine. Still as I said I'd like to be able to handle things at least two years ahead without too much loss of efficiency. I considered the imac, sure, but I don't need the graphics card and I already have plenty of displays (had three running on the G5) so I settled for a mini core duo - and I must say I'm impressed by the little bugger.

Not only is it sexy as hell, but it just steams ahead like theres no tomorrow. I too have a G4 that I use a lot - a 1.2ghz 12" ibook. The only reason I can see for changing it within a years time is to run parallels, but apart from that and some slower loading and movie playback, I'm still very happy with the little devil.

So I guess I don't have much to say other than don't get a G4 or G5 because its cheaper - I'd advice getting an lesser intel system instead, but thats just me - adding a reply to balance that of MrDudes a bit.