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Thoughts on Unity 5.0

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Deleted User, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Why are you always trying to oppose both? Trying to stoke the fires? This is a FACT for you : U4 is the best 'out of the box' engine, we ALL understand. Can we finish now ?. :confused:


    All opponents have the same speech: If you want a mobile-indie-simple-trick, okay Unity is good, if you want AAA stuff go for Unreal Engine. I think the message is understood.
    It really is time that this kind of debate are closed. :rolleyes:

    Edit :

    You know what's funny? : Whenever someone talks about the superiority of Unreal, he argues his point with the work of someone else. Someone else !!!. Both engines are now free and fully functional. The only answer to these comparative discussions should be "Download, Create and Show YOUR works."
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
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  2. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    There is no opponent only competitors, without UE4 changes, i doubt the personnal edition with all features would have happened some day.

    Have a good night and stop worrying.
     
  3. chingwa

    chingwa

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    The Subtle Art of Not giving a F@%$!...
    "In my life, I have given a f@%$! about many people and many things. I have also not given a f@%$! about many people and many things. And those f@%$!s I have not given have made all the difference."

    http://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-F***#POdAxR:m2MI
     
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  4. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Egg and Chicken story. Without the success of Unity there would probably never had a Unreal 4 subscription etc ....

    Good night too.
     
  5. cannon

    cannon

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    Aye. Unity picked this fight, a long time ago, when they decided to give away their $400 engine for free.

    I really like the changes in quality though. Not the graphical quality, but that huge QA system they started back in the day has been really paying off for a while now. Well, yeah, I really like the graphical quality too.
     
  6. Deleted User

    Deleted User

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    Most of us understand Unity's shortcomings and I believe most of this discussion about UE4 has nothing to do with UE4. We've been discussing the topic for years, so if "we" don't get it by now then we never will.

    Question is, does Unity "get it"? Even though I've been stung by saying this before, it appears from what's coming in Unity 5 they do. The market over the last 8 years or so has become very artist centric.

    I'd never expect small indies to be spending all their time constantly re-making shaders and rendering / post tech neither would I ever expect an artist to write shaders in CG. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but an artists main focal point is art? Writing small shaders in a material editor, I would expect them to do that.

    Even in a mid sized team like us who most likely have a graphics engineer, I wouldn't expect them to go in and re-decorate the house (change all shaders, terrain systems, shadows, lighting, post, rendering pipeline). When all we should be doing is adding new furniture.

    It's great that we have a lot of flexibility, like upcoming command buffers etc. but every venture we take on further removes from what we should be doing. It should be a choice not a necessity, because if you want the ultimate in flexibility there's something called OpengGL :).
     
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  7. goat

    goat

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    1. My thoughts for the picture ShadowK posted earlier was it is shows the capability is there but that picture was not realistic enough in the elements chosen. Mainly owing models from different environments one wouldn't expect to find in a scene of that implied antiquity.

    So I think ShadowK's lighting and colors say low latitude semi-arid region while his buildings and trees say high latitude wet area. There is a big disconnect between the color blue in the sky and the intensity of the light. The shadows say high noon but the sky says early morning or late afternoon. Of course in Scandinavia the blue is OK for your sky at high noon but then the light is too intense and contrast too high in the rest of the picture.

    Overall, you need composition more like this for your implied location:

    http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Folkemuseum#/media/File:Norskfolkemuseum_1.jpg

    I think the lighting in your scene would have better composition like this:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BAk14t0o4t8/Txm0T8h9cFI/AAAAAAAAAo0/U_ctcJ-AglI/s1600/Minerve+.jpg


    2. My thoughts is I imported a old project I did in the beginning of 2012 of some mountains with a lake using Unity Terrain and Terrain Toolkit 1.0.2

    The upgrades Unity 5 did to the water were outstanding. Reflections of the mountains in the lake like in a post card. It ran at about 20 FPS which what is ran at in beginning 2012 which I consider good considering the extra work it was doing. And yes, it ran on the same computer both times.

    However, it is disappointing that the actual mountains and trees in the scene have not a way to improve upon the cartoonish look I chose previously because of no way to automate the painting textures onto the scene.

    The mountain area I have in that scene is satellite data and consists of grey gneiss, granites, greenschist, and brown dirt.

    To autopaint a good set of gneiss, granites, greenschist, and brown dirt on my terrain I should be able to draw lines that approximate their distribution on my terrain like a topographer drawing elevation lines or a botanist drawing tree lines and so on.

    Actually when you think about the abundance of cartographic sources with maps for all over the world with libraries of data of just this type information I am surprised no business like Unity has yet taken advantage of re-mapping these distribution maps over satellite heightmaps.

    It actually has excellent utility outside of games for teaching general concepts and techniques in news, school, scientific, and safety applications. I say general use because you need serious storage, serious compute power, seriously accurate models to be precise for some of the more difficult problems in science and safety but the general models are good for teaching concepts and creating an approach to general problems that don't need such a high precision but to need some passable semblance the the world that's out there.
     
  8. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Let's not drag this out into yet another engine war. People here chose to use Unity, therefore we need to focus on Unity improvements.
     
  9. Deleted User

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    @goat

    It's a game, if I believed sticking in two moons and a dinosaur benefited it I would. That being sad, the colour correction (curves) couldn't seem to get contrasts correct even with tweaking. I tried it on another scene which made the stars disappear completely.. So something's "up".

    Also general lighting seems to be a little "orange" so setting colour tone wasn't as simple as it should of been, something I'll figure out at some point.

    Whilst the Witcher 3 looks good, it's far from realistic in terms of colour.

    @wheretheidivides

    Real time GI has been much faster and more efficient than baked lighting is, we have powerful machines and I gave up on baked. It'd be nice to have more information, baked came in very handy for heavy in-door scenes when performance could be an issue.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2015
  10. nipoco

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    Unity5 is not perfect by any means. And I also like UE4 for several reasons. But it is way more unstable than Unity5 at the moment. If it would be more solid, I would use it too in a production environment.
    Personally I didn't encounter a single crash in Unity5. And I use that since the latest betas. UE4 on the other hand crashes like every 5 min when I use it.

    I hadn't any of the lightmap baking issues in Unity5. But I tried only really small scenes with it. But if it takes that long to bake, then isn't something right there.
     
  11. Deleted User

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    What are you doing to it :D? I've never had it crash once.
     
  12. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Same here.
    I can't speak for everyone, but Unity seems one of the most stable releases so far I've ever used. And I use it since version 2.something.
    I'm sure there are people with issues. Heck I would be surprised if this runs smooth for everyone. That is almost impossible in the software world.
    But compared to Unreal's issues, it is rock solid in my book.
     
  13. darkhog

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    No, colors are great. I have had enough of brownish "realistic" games. Why we can't have nice AAA games that aren't brownish but still look realistic? Oh right, we have. It's called Far Cry 3. Anyway @ShadowK good work on village thingy. It really rings Witcher here, though textures seem to be a little flat. Perhaps normal map could help?

    Anyway, I am very impressed with new capabilities Unit now have.

    By the way, any idea how Unity would perform for big scenes made from large amount of unconnected, but not moving (though having colliders applied) meshes (cubes, cones pyramids, cylinders - stuff like that) up to 32 vertices each?
     
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  14. zenGarden

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    Cryteck succeed in making realtime GI running on medium computers, why Unity and UE4 could not achieve same results and performance ? UE4 is already trying to find some fast enought solution while Unity i think will stay with Enlighten, they put some much effort and money i don't think they will let down Enlighten for a full realtime solution.
     
  15. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Crytek GI is only from the sun afaik.

    Compute performance is growing at an insane rate, so in 10 years we'll see path tracing games.
     
  16. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Like Hippocoder says, CryEngine just uses LPV which is also available in UE4, but with the limitations of only one sun light and light leaking in a lot cases.

    And if you want full dynamic GI in Unity, you should keep an eye on Sonic Ether's upcoming stuff.
     
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  17. Deleted User

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    Sounds great in theory, every single real-time GI solution I've ever seen or worked on has been a complete disaster in one way or another :D.

    @darkhog

    Thanks, all the textures are normal mapped I'm not sure why they look so flat? Everyone says that about Unity, there should be some sort of NM / Bump offset option in the default terrain shader really.

    Something I need to look into.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2015
  18. ZJP

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    A tool such as this one requires a developer that is much more active on the forum. This is not the case of Sonic Ether.:confused:

    "Hi guys, sorry I've been away, I've been so busy juggling other projects!"
    "I'm sorry that I've been away, everyone!"
    "Sorry I've been gone for so long, everyone!"

    As i said before a GI is too important to be left to a 3rd party. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
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  19. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Totally agree. Same for post fx. Yebis plx.
     
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  20. orionburcham

    orionburcham

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    Hmm, as far as I know, he has not. But I'm sure Unity would appreciate it if you would file some bug reports about these crashes. These are the types of issues I'm sure they'd like to fix.
     
  21. Dantus

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    Creating a playlist is very easy and usually dependent on the game.

    The lighting solution will definitely be improved during the Unity 5 cycle a lot. The baking will most likely be improved as well. It seems to be a good practice at the moment to turn the quality all the way down and then slowly increase it to find out what works and what doesn't. Yes, of course that's not optimal, but again, they are going to improve it.

    Most gamers will most likely care a lot less than expected. The central part of a game is a good game and not a splash screen.

    Developers are not Hollywood actors. They are not used to red carpets and are not constantly smiling just because they see a camera. They behaved professionally, gave very good answers and that's what counts.

    Many like to have all the new features that were Pro only in Unity 4. I expect that most free users are very happy. Maybe Unity will improve the splash screen, who knows.
     
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  22. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Within one year perhaps ?
    What is not good , is that Unity just delivers the base requirements : PBR, minimum terrain, minimum shaders, then you have to buy many things on the Asset Store to reach a better quality and tools that you can't have out of the box.
    But why complaining as all features are free now.

    I used Blueprints, and it's really far way better in functionnality and visually then Playmaker. But i agree Unity should create their own visual scripting system.
     
  23. Dantus

    Dantus

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    The base requirement is still a lot better than what existed in Unity 4 and as such it is a clear step forward, maybe with the exception of baking which still has some issues. There is the official thread about terrain improvements, so that is clearly on the radar of Unity along with many other areas.
    There are always things that can be better.
     
  24. ZJP

    ZJP

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    NO. Buy this one.

    Why?!
     
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  25. Deleted User

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    @wheretheidivides

    Seriously I don't get 95% of that, Mecanim too hard? I had it up and running within 40 minutes just watching a video, you turn stuff on and off or use a float to increase / decrease. At a base level without getting too deep, it's damn easy to use. You should go and try CryEngine for a lesson in hard..

    Default 0,0,0? Why not just type in 0,0,0 in the vector position or is the 5 seconds it takes you to do that too strenuous?

    Scale length? 1U = 1M, sorted.

    Export to Amazon? What engine does stuff like that? You're complaining about stuff you need to deal with.!

    Rest of it is more of the same, the only decent points is a couple of bug fixes and refunds from the asset store. As for crashes, go report it and there seems to be no explanations from you as to why it's crashing. Give them something to work with and actually report it.

    I'm harsh with the tools I use, there's a shed load of things that need sorting in Unity. But it's an actual need, not a oh I'd like this maybe for me personally..!

    @zenGarden

    Let's call a spade a spade 95% of indie's I've talked to know nothing deep about coding shaders, artists don't want to code shaders and in all fairness I don't blame them, the post sucks, the lighting isn't exactly stellar and neither are the shadows out the box. Before Aras comes in and jumps up and down, there is a reason for this IMO which is performance.

    It's all easily modifiable (in most cases) so you can easily hit your target market no matter the situation, UE4 is the living embodiment of what happens when you just go for the sky and forget about the mere mortals with their crappy old GPU's.

    Which for me who has a target market within the realms of mortals suits me, but again I'm not going to spend six months working on terrain systems, shaders, post, shadows and lighting. Slap on an animation system and an importer, where not too far from custom engine territory here. Question is where's the line?

    For me that's simple, by default include the best they can and let the developer decide if they want to change it. Artists will instantly adopt the tech and Unity will loose some of the stigma. The pipeline is pretty flexible as is, so options.. Plenty of options.

    On coding part of me says, if you can't code in C# you're doomed as a games developer. It's not exactly difficult, so what's the real need for visual scripting?
     
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  26. PROTOFACTOR_Inc

    PROTOFACTOR_Inc

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    Well, even if I really love the Uscript middelware... I'm not sure it's still really supported any more. I wish I'm wrong though. Did they say they would port it to unity 5? is the team still active on the forum. This is definitely the visual scripting tool that I'm the most comfortable with.
     
  27. ZJP

    ZJP

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    ..Or just write an Editor Script for that.

    Code (csharp):
    1.  
    2. using UnityEngine;
    3. using UnityEditor;
    4. using System.Collections;
    5.  
    6. public class TransformZero : ScriptableObject
    7. {
    8.     [MenuItem ("Tools/Standard Editor Tools/Transform Utilities/Move to Zero", false, 1)]
    9.     static void MenuInsertParent()
    10.     {
    11.         Transform[] transforms = Selection.GetTransforms(SelectionMode.TopLevel |  SelectionMode.OnlyUserModifiable);
    12.         foreach(Transform transform in transforms) transform.position = new Vector3(0,0,0);
    13.     }
    14. }
    15.  
    Make in...30 secondes. BTW i'm not an Unity's Guru. :p
     
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  28. ZJP

    ZJP

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    Last update : Version: 1.0.2864 (Mar 16, 2015) ;)
    So, IF no supported it would be a good opportunity for Unity Technologies to make an (irresistible) offer. :p:D
     
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  29. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Those who cannot understand the point he is making are pretty much doomed in some way too. :p
     
  30. ZJP

    ZJP

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    That said, i very love Basic4Android (B4A). :cool:
     
  31. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Click on the object, click on the gear symbol on the Transform panel, click Reset.
     
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  32. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I used UE4 shader editor without beeing any shader expert, but tweaking things , changing nodes, i could get many interesting effects, something not available in Unity.
    Unity terrain is very old and looking pretty poor compared to some others proposing advanced terrain shaders : specular, parallax, normal map, or any shader you want like UE4 proposes.

    For example i don't know anything about shaders, but i quickly understood some nodes like UV manipulation, blending and some other ones and i could just re use examples and tweak them, this is why high level tools matters : you don't need to be some expert on some domain , just following examples you will understand some things and you will be able to customize them.

    I just hope basic features and tools to improve more in Unity.If you need to go further with Unity you will need the Asset Store for people that will not put their hands on the core features (shaders,terrain, effects ...).
    But again, it's all features for free, and not all Unity projects choose the realistic look also, so yep, why should we complaining so much ?
    I baught many Assets (Rotorz for example) and i really don't regret them as this is an investment you make for your future games.

    I agree Unity is the engine able to hit a big mass market , while keeping good graphics running fast.
    But UE4 for small to medium games is not so bad, perhaps slower on the same machine, perhaps a smaller market , but it's a choice some people make.

    Some people make games without knowing code and using Playmaker for example. Perhaps not big or complex games, but some small good games. That's a great tool for them.
    I know a lot about coding C# gameplay and using mecanim, many things like Arrays management , Classes etc ... indeed i will code that in C# instead of comple Visual nodes.
    The problem with visual script is when you go advanced and complex : it can become a mess of nodes, where you would prefer clear lines of code.
    But for small games it works ,and visual script helps in a team work also, take a look at SnowDrop engine.

    When the code of visul scripting is efficiently traducted to C++ , there is no problem really.
    And managing , sharing ,creating interactive worlds things using a visual scripting system can benefit the whole team, specially allowing 3D artists that don't know any code to participate on creating gameplay directly tied to their 3D art.
    You can consider such visual scripts tool as great addons, not replacing the code , but allowing to make quickly interactive gameplay and have 3D artists able to create gameplay also.
     
  33. Dantus

    Dantus

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    Seriously, that doesn't change anything. Who cares? They are doing a terrific job, that's what counts!

    Unity creates a framework that gives us lots of freedom. They can't create solutions for everything. A playlist is dependent on the context of your game and as such you are better off to create it on your own. The next song to be played may depend on the mood, on the health or the position of the player on the map, could just be a random one from the playlist, could be the follow up song. As soon as we leave the very trivial use case, it becomes very complicated to find a solution that can be used in general.
     
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  34. PROTOFACTOR_Inc

    PROTOFACTOR_Inc

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    Good to know, will have to download then. Thanks for the info.
     
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  35. khan-amil

    khan-amil

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    Well, Mecanim is still less streamlined than the legacy system, in terms of workflow for simple(single) animations. So yeah, they still have room to improve on that, like with other topics.

    As for the rest of the list, for the 0,0,0 it's minor but from a UX perspective it's a shortseeing that cost in the end quite some time. But as already pointed out, it's easily fixed with a script. Even better is the way the NGUI folks have gone, adding a little button near each line to reset the corresponding field.

    @wheretheidivides : you're correct that suggestions are helpful, but you have to keep in mind that they can't cater to everyone and that a lot of your suggestions are quite specific. For example adding other viewports could fit a specific role, but it can quickly lead to convoluted interface, like in UE.
     
  36. ZJP

    ZJP

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    I can not count the number of times i said on these forums "I hate Mecanim." You know what? I find it better and better. Finally, I like it. :p
     
  37. Devil_Inside

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    Ryiah and ZJP like this.
  38. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Yes this is the point and this is why Asset Store is needed i think, for people that don't have time or can't code better visual shaders or better tools. I hope they will bring some tools that should be part of the package : Shader editor, Visual scripting,Cinematic tool.
     
  39. nipoco

    nipoco

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    I hear you :)
    To be honest I don't read his threads that much. I found that only through Twitter. And I stated it several times here, I'm not a fan of third-party solutions either (The Shaderforge guy seems losing the interest in his product too btw.)

    My hopes are that Sonic Ether's stuff might get integrated by default, because UT is already interested to integrate better effects and he showcased his GI at the official Unity booth at GDC. Maybe that's a hint. I don't know.
     
  40. ZJP

    ZJP

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    2017, Game Engine War : Reloaded. Snowdrop Engine available with subscription (or free). :p

    It would be nice. Really... :cool:
     
  41. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Lol Hilarious.
    I don't judge those people by their look. I judge them by their actions.
    Overall it's the IT industry (look at Zuckerburg, Jobs, Luckey etc) and not the WallStreet.
     
  42. Ryiah

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    Who are we having to present ourselves to? Developers are not generally seen by the public and those that give talks are often doing so to fellow developers with a similar mindset on dress and grooming.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
  43. ZJP

    ZJP

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    I was not really a fan of John Riccitiello (thanks again for this new price policy) but I prefer the "shirt-thing-with-white-funny-tank" instead the Wall Street one. Again, good (vestimentary) move John. :p:p

    I turned my jacket. :D
     
  44. nipoco

    nipoco

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    Seriously?
    Steve Jobs presented his stuff with jeans and sneakers. And he made Apple one of the most valuable companies in this world.

    The CEO from Nvidia presents his stuff with a motorcycle jacket. And the people at Epic wear casual clothes too. It's the Game developers conference. And not the President's cocktail party.
     
  45. Ryiah

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    We're watching the announcement video to see Unity 5. How the presenters dress is immaterial when most of the time we will be seeing live footage of the engine in action.

    Additionally check out this list of the Top 20 YouTubers and take note of their outfits. All of them have millions of subscribers.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/top-20-most-popular-youtube-stars-2014-11?op=1
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
  46. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I respect him far more than someone who spent more time complaining than researching how to solve their problems.
     
  47. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    I find it pretty amusing that wheretheidivides critiques someone for not tucking a shirt in but doesn't comment on that our CTO was wearing a kick-ass Christmas Jumper in California in March. :)
     
  48. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I think most of us were far too elated at the changes to licensing schemes to notice. Not to mention most people around here have some really lousy tastes in clothing and tend to leave their holiday decorations (ie their Christmas lights) up far past the season for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
  49. Deleted User

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    @wheretheidivides

    Suggestions are fine, but a lot of what you're saying are personal improvements that a company with hundreds of thousands of customers will never cater for, neither does 99.9% of it actually stop or present a challenge when making a game.

    It's not about attitude it's about common logic, they will only work on specific things and it's hard enough trying to get things that would heavily speed up production and make a huge difference to everyone. Never mind the odd thing you could easily do yourself, some suggestions don't help.

    On the dress code, I know it sounds a little silly but even in other technical engineering firms. The engineers or developers wear smart casual and sales people where suits, it's a trust practice and supposed to create a relaxed atmosphere. Well that's the theory behind it anyway..

    On coding, no the point is C# in Unity is one of THE simplest forms of scripting in an engine I've ever come across, ever. UE4 is much harder and really needs BP's for beginners, I'm not saying visual scripting is a bad thing and to many it's just about workflow. Although you should still be able to understand both visual and typed code..

    @zenGarden

    As said I completely agree with the material editor, the only AAA grade engine I've seen that comes without one is CE and in 3D it pretty much covers you for everything. They are beautiful shaders and there's only one instance I can think of where you'd change the shaders and post in CE and that's for stylised games, apart from that even POM is included in the default tree.

    What I always wondered, is UE4 that much better looking than UE3 and CE to warrant the abysmal frame rates? Personally I don't think so..

    ................................................................................................................................

    Draw a line here, because coming to the most important point / question.

    What really should Unity improve and should we be complaining?

    Well, they've already taken the first step with Enlighten and the next step with "personal edition". How much money do you think Unity will loose out of personal edition?

    Now they're relying on us being successful like Epic are, every month we as developers spend time upgrading something Unity don't get any money. At this stage they don't have a choice.!

    How many games use terrain systems? A LOT! How many games use materials? All of them, how many games use post effects? Most, if not all of them! How many games have cut scenes? A lot of them, list goes on.

    At the moment, they're probably going through backlog of things that was needed a while back. We'll see.!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
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  50. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,965
    I don't think they'll lose that much. The only major sales I believe they will lose are going to be those who were not successful enough to reach $100,000 annually but wanted Unity Pro features badly enough to buy it. Many people were already content sticking with Unity Free.

    What interests me more is how many people stopped pirating in favor of using a legit copy of Personal. If their paid features are primarily online I would imagine that eliminates any real value to a pirated copy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015